Craft Contingent Spell (CAr) vs Glyph Seal (MIC)

[unseenmage]

Which is better? Craft Contingent Spells or Glyph Seals?

More precisely this is for an Artificer who likes creative combinations of spells and who has several months of crafting time to burn.
(He already has everything else he needs, just trying to determine which of these is more worth his while.)

I'm looking for which is better cost-wise or even utility-wise when stacking multiple spells.
Which are more cost effective and when?
Do Custom Magic Traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#tableCostModifiersforMagicDeviceTraps) beat them both pricewise?

Some thoughts:
Glyoh Seal is different from Glyph of Warding in that it explicitly can be stuck to the same surface as another Glyph Seal. (says 'any surface', doesn't refer to Glyph of Warding for ruling, and doesn't state it cannot be)

Craft Contingent Spell has to be on a Creature and can only stack up to 3 per HD via Chain Contingency.

Examples of spell stacks:

- Chain Contingency (TaB) + Revivify (SC) + Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) + Revivify
The Chain Contingency triggers when the character dies, casting Revivify then casting Contingency and another Revivify into the Contingency.

- Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) + Animate Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm)
The Fabricate effect scuplts the area into a humanoid and the Animate Objects turns it into your minion.
Several variations on this one can be done. Add Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) to make the minion last, add Hardening (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/hardening.htm) and Augment Objects (SBG) to toughen the minion up. Add a Custom Spell (DMG198) version of the above Revivify trick to make the minion keep getting back up.
Could also add Incarnate Construct (SS) to the end of a Permanency-ed Animate Object stack to suddenly a living creature.


Edit:
For my purposes assume that both harmful and beneficial spells can be put into both types of items. Sorry for any confusion.

[Jack_Simth]

Which is better? Craft Contingent Spells or Glyph Seals?

More precisely this is for an Artificer who likes creative combinations of spells and who has several months of crafting time to burn.
(He already has everything else he needs, just trying to determine which of these is more worth his while.)
They serve different purposes.

A Glyph of Warding (from which the Glyph Seal inherits the base mechanics) goes off on whatever triggers it, and specifically requires you store a harmful spell (although there are readings that suggest you could put a beneficial spell into a Glyph Seal). This is used to set traps for your enemies (you might, for instance, put one on your shield, and use a trigger condition that amounts to "hits me" for some targeted spell effect, or maybe a summon).

A Contingent Spell takes effect upon the bearer (or if an area effect, is centred on the bearer). You can put in almost any spell you like... but because of their limitations, they're used for one-shot buff spells (which activate when you take some free action or another that you can use out of turn, like attempting to say a particular phrase), recovery (a Heal spell when you're mortally wounded), or attack negation (Energy Immunity (Fire) if I'm subject to a fire attack).

As to Custom Magic Traps: A one-shot magic device trap has *exactly* the same cost to create as does a Craft Contingent Spell... if you're doing a simple trigger (a trigger based off the Alarm spell). They get more expensive if you're doing a complex trigger (one that would require detection that would be more expensive than Alarm - you need something like Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance for a visual or verbal trigger, for instance, and that adds to the costs). An automatic reset magic device trap, on the other hand, is a bargain if you expect it to go off more than ten times (so you might, for instance, have an automatic reset magic device trap of Heal in your left boot, that casts Heal on you every time you're close to death... and another in your right boot that does Revivify if you're actually dead - both triggered via Deathwatch). Both of these have a caveat: Magic Device Traps are much better than other options if the effect you are using has an XP component. Why? Magic Device Traps let you use gold instead, while Craft Contingent Spells require you actually spend the XP (from your Craft Reserve in your case, but still).


Oh, and the Chain Contingency trick probably shouldn't work. You put the spells into a Chain Contingency while you're casting the Chain Contingency. The Contingent Spell Chain Contingency doesn't get cast until something triggers it, at which point, you can put spells into it. Except that you don't have the spells to put into it at that time, by and large.

[unseenmage]

They serve different purposes.

A Glyph of Warding (from which the Glyph Seal inherits the base mechanics) goes off on whatever triggers it, and specifically requires you store a harmful spell (although there are readings that suggest you could put a beneficial spell into a Glyph Seal). This is used to set traps for your enemies (you might, for instance, put one on your shield, and use a trigger condition that amounts to "hits me" for some targeted spell effect, or maybe a summon)

A Contingent Spell takes effect upon the bearer (or if an area effect, is centred on the bearer). You can put in almost any spell you like... but because of their limitations, they're used for one-shot buff spells (which activate when you take some free action or another that you can use out of turn, like attempting to say a particular phrase), recovery (a Heal spell when you're mortally wounded), or attack negation (Energy Immunity (Fire) if I'm subject to a fire attack).

Oh, and the Chain Contingency trick probably shouldn't work. You put the spells into a Chain Contingency while you're casting the Chain Contingency. The Contingent Spell Chain Contingency doesn't get cast until something triggers it, at which point, you can put spells into it. Except that you don't have the spells to put into it at that time, by and large.

Craft Contingent Spell isn't subject to the restrictions of the Contingency spell. It allows for "any spell you know" which would include non-beneficial spells. The Contingency spell specifies it "must be one that affects your person".

The Chain Contingency spell trick works because it explicitly allows the spells to be simultaneous or consecutive.

For my purposes we can assume that both beneficial and harmful and 'neither' spells can be put into both. Even if that isn't specifically RAW (or even RAI), the character these are for has Custom Magic Items allowed. :smallbiggrin: Will add to OP.

[Jack_Simth]

Craft Contingent Spell isn't subject to the restrictions of the Contingency spell. It allows for "any spell you know" which would include non-beneficial spells. The Contingency spell specifies it "must be one that affects your person".
Right. And Craft Contingent Spell specifies that the spell goes off, either on the bearer of the Craft Contingent Spell, or is centered on him. So you can't do something that, say, casts Disintegrate on the next person to attack you (unless, of course, the next person to attack you happens to be the person you spent a few days working on to put in the craft contingent spell). OK, yes, if you run around with Energy Immunity(Fire) up all the time, you could set a Craft Contingent Spell(Fireball) on yourself and get people that hit you from up close & personal, and can use similar effects to turn disposable minions into bombs, but by and large, Craft Contingent Spell is either going to be used for one of: Attack negation (teleporting away, maybe), triggered buffs, or negative status negation.



The Chain Contingency spell trick works because it explicitly allows the spells to be simultaneous or consecutive.
That's not the aspect I meant. Sure, if you've got a Chain Contingency cast, and when you cast it, you loaded it with, say, Gorillian Arms + Fuse Arms, you get a massive Str boost when it goes off. That's not the aspect I meant. The problem comes with something else: "Chain contingency must be cast together with the spells it is to trigger."

When you use the Craft Contingent Spell feat, the spell you're making that way isn't cast yet. There's nowhere to load the three spells you want to chain off of the Chain Contingency because Chain Contingency hasn't yet been cast. You'd need a readied action with the three spells to load it with when the Craft Contingent Spell went off to load the Chain Contingency, which quite defeats the purpose.



For my purposes we can assume that both beneficial and harmful and 'neither' spells can be put into both. Even if that isn't specifically RAW (or even RAI), the character these are for has Custom Magic Items allowed. :smallbiggrin: Will add to OP.
Doesn't change things much, especially for an Artificer. Glyph Seals are permanent magic items, but need to be loaded in advance. As an Artificer, you're going to need to craft scrolls and things to put into them - so you're spending resources every time anyway. Automatic reset magic device traps of beneficial spells on stuff you're wearing are going to blow most things out of the water if you're going to use them often (mostly because the rules for them are rather poor). You can set up a True Resurrection spell to go off on yourself every time something kills you in, say, your necklace. Then go through the listing of status effects, find something that fixes it, and build a trap into another thing you're wearing that negates each status effect. Double up on the more straightforward things, and then there's a rather large amount of work needed to take you down (chain spell greater dispel magic to dispell everything you're wearing to disable all the traps temporarily, THEN make sure to kill you within 1d4 rounds).

[unseenmage]

...

That's not the aspect I meant. Sure, if you've got a Chain Contingency cast, and when you cast it, you loaded it with, say, Gorillian Arms + Fuse Arms, you get a massive Str boost when it goes off. That's not the aspect I meant. The problem comes with something else: "Chain contingency must be cast together with the spells it is to trigger."

When you use the Craft Contingent Spell feat, the spell you're making that way isn't cast yet. There's nowhere to load the three spells you want to chain off of the Chain Contingency because Chain Contingency hasn't yet been cast. You'd need a readied action with the three spells to load it with when the Craft Contingent Spell went off to load the Chain Contingency, which quite defeats the purpose.


...

So several Craft Contingent Spells to load the Chain Contingency Craft Contingent then?

[Phelix-Mu]

Even if you can't chain contingency them, Craft Contingent is pretty darn useful. Mostly for non-casters, though.

At your established level of op, it seems more like the spell traps might be more useful/exploitable. Really, I'm not sure you can blanket say which is better (aside from the bit about spells with xp components...traps are clearly superior for that).

[Jack_Simth]

So several Craft Contingent Spells to load the Chain Contingency Craft Contingent then?
Again: Defeats the purpose. You're now using Craft Contingent Spell four times to get three effects. If you set them off to load up a Chain Contingency (and you can only keep one Chain Contingency running at a time) sure, you can put on four more Craft Contingent Spell iterations... but you could have done the same, for about a quarter of the cost, simply via scrolls.

[unseenmage]

Again: Defeats the purpose. You're now using Craft Contingent Spell four times to get three effects. If you set them off to load up a Chain Contingency (and you can only keep one Chain Contingency running at a time) sure, you can put on four more Craft Contingent Spell iterations... but you could have done the same, for about a quarter of the cost, simply via scrolls.

Well, not exactly the same. Craft Contingents persist after the subject dies. And they are technically items so they only get suppressed by antimagic as well.

Just Chain Contingency gets Dispelled and arguably might not work to revive the dead.