Warlock dilemma

[KnotaGuru]

Hi all,
I have a dilemma on my hands. I'm currently playing a human warlock in my first 3.5 campaign. We are about to hit level 4 and the DM wants to play with more consistent players (which I am one of). The DM also gave us the option to change our characters if we want. Now, I am loving the warlock so I'm not sure if I need to or should alter my character. The remaining committed players are human crusader, whisper gnome rogue, elf scout, and gruwar bard. We lost commitment from human paladin and kobald cleric.

So, here's my dilemma: With our divine classes dropping out, I'm wondering if I should alter my warlock to be a cloistered cleric/warlock/eldritch disciple. I'm not sure how long the campaign will go, I'm thinking at least lvl 9-12.


Here's my current/projected build:

Stats: (44-pt buy): 10,16,14,14,12,18 (future ranks into CHA)
Class: Warlock 8 > Binder 1 > Hellfire warlock 3 > Warlock 8
Feats: PP-shot, precise shot, ability focus (eldritch blast), spell pen, noncombatant (flaw), (future: extra invocation, improved crit EB)
Invocations: baleful utterance, frightful blast, (future: see the unseen, eldritch chain, entropic warding, fell flight, brimstone blast, voracious dispelling, chilling tentacles, vitriolic blast, utterdark blast)
Special: detect magic, deceive item, DR cold iron


Alternate build:

Stats: (44-pt buy): 11,14,14,14,17,16 (future ranks into WIS)
Class: Cloistered cleric 1 > Warlock 2 > Cloistered cleric 2 > Eldritch disciple 10 > Mystic Theurge 5 (caster lvl: Cleric 17/Warlock 17)
Deity: Lirr
Domain: Travel or Magic, (ACF) knowledge devotion, (ACF) divine magician
Feats: PP-shot, precise shot, , zen archery, (future: extra invocation?, extra turning?, sacred healing?, touch of healing?, ???)
Invocations: baleful utterance, see the unseen, (future: eldritch chain, entropic warding, fell flight, voracious dispelling, chilling tentacles, vitriolic blast, utterdark blast)
Special: detect magic, gift of the divine patron (wild frenzy, healing blast, corrupting blast)

I feel this alternate would still do decent damage with knowledge devotion (with collector of stories/lore of the gods trick) along with wild frenzy. Divine magician spells would most likely be no-save debuffs (ray of enfeeblement/fatigue/exhaustion types). Would have a fantastic WILL save and cleric spells for versatility. I'd mainly lose out on UMD/deceive item. I'm also aware of using eldritch glaive and travel devotion, I could add those if needed. I feel that DMM/persist trick is super cheese.

Comments, thoughts, suggestions?

Thanks :)

[kpumphre]

Dragon Fire Adept might be a better idea. While I love warlock you need either damage dealer from the looks of it or battlefield control. Scout can deal good damage but limited range 30 feet max if it is a ranged build.

If you want cleric I say go normal Cleric for divine spells and extra damage

[Krazzman]

Warlock/Refluffed Ur-Priest (or just Ur-Priest)1/Eldritch Disciple/Binder1/Hellfire Warlock should work wonders.

But I don't know the entry requirements from Ur-Priest... but this should be the best solution.

Or take Travel and ??? domain and grab travel devotion as a feat.
Cleric2/Warlock1/Cleric+1/Church Inquisitor (get's inquisition domain)/Eldritch Disciple.

[hymer]

If you want to change your character, as in you want to play the second build, I think you should change. But otherwise, this is a conversation you should have with the other players and the DM. Does the DM think you need a cleric? Are any of the other players changing anything, so you should coordinate?

My default answer would be no; you should keep the character you like. You can cover a lot of options with Use Magic Device, so even if there is a need for, say, healing, you can fill that role, especially if the DM is being helpful with the items you'd need.

[H. Von Studley]

Warlock can be great fun to play, so if you're really enjoying the character I'd stick with it.

If you have the option maybe think about changing the build around a little though. Spell penetration might not be worth it as Vitriolic Blast can automatically bypass SR. If you're looking for more damage output Maximise and Quicken Spell-Like Ability can add some useful power. If you're looking for versatility then a two level dip into Chameleon can give you essentially any item crafting by combining the floating feat and imbue item, as well as giving you a few other useful abilities.

If you're even considering Eldritch Glaive then it's probably worth it. A least invocation is minimal investment and if you're interested in debuffing (which you seem to be) the iterative attacks make it a lot more effective than blasting. And you still retain the ranged option if things look too hairy for you to get up close.

More importantly, you should play what you're having fun with. The party can probably get by without divine casting, especially with some UMD'd wands to fill in the blind spots.

[Red Fel]

More importantly, you should play what you're having fun with. The party can probably get by without divine casting, especially with some UMD'd wands to fill in the blind spots.

This. First off, you should never feel forced to play a concept you didn't want to play. Warlock is fun for you; do what you want.

Second, a lot of what casters do can be duplicated with wands, scrolls, etc. In particular, divine casters are often used for healing, but that's an inefficient use of spells and combat rounds; a smart divine caster stocks up on wands for curing out of combat. Warlocks, as you recall, may take 10 on UMD at any time. Milk that.

No party needs a dedicated divine caster. Don't feel like you have to do it if you don't want to.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, just get the party to set aside a share of money for restoration items, like healing belts, wands of hp restoration spells, and scrolls of status restoration effects.

That said, a LE warlock X / Urpriest 1 / Eldritch Disciple can be TONS of fun, as you have most the stuff from a warlock with access to tons of fun divine spells. The fluff also matches, as you deal with demons and steal from gods.

[John Longarrow]

KnotaGuru,

What is your goal with the character? i.e. are you looking to do healing and have access to clerical spells? Are you looking to do area control? Are you looking for melee options? all? some?

If you can fill us in on what you would like to be able to do we can give better options.

[Person_Man]

For all day blasting + tricks, I personally prefer strait Dragonfire Adept, Binder, or Totemist. But really, either build that you put forward looks fine. \

But you should be aware that if you go the Warlock/Cleric route (or anything that involves more then a 1 level dip) there is some multi-classing pain that tends to occur around levels 5-8ish. You'll still be stuck with a bunch of very low level spells/Invocations while your friends are rocking out 3rd through 5th level spells/maneuvers/etc.

If you want a build that adds in healing, consider Warlock/Incarnate 1/Hellfire Warlock X. Incarnate can negate ability damage with the Strongheart Vest soulmeld. And their Soulspark Familiar soulmeld grants them a little Soulspark creature with fast healing. Buy a weapon with the Vampiric enchantment. Beat it repeatedly with non-lethal damage (which anyone can do by taking a -4 penalty). And now you have infinite out of combat healing for your entire party.

[BowStreetRunner]

I previously played an eldritch disciple build with healing blast and also used the knowledge devotion trick. It worked very successfully to fill the healing role, ranged damage role, and still had enough invocation/divine spell tricks up its sleeve to be useful in a number of other situations as well.

Ultimately, if you can't get by without a healer in the party you are not trying hard enough. So you should feel free to play whatever build you want. However, I personally enjoyed the additional flexibility, even if I did sacrifice a bit in terms of overall power.

[Bloodgruve]

You have a Crusader so he'll be sitting pretty good in combat. With your Cha and Deceive Item you can basically use magic items without a dice roll in most cases.

Have your party split loot with an extra pool and use that for restorative magic items. Wand of Vigor is cheap and has nice hp returns.

Have the bard pick up Healing Hymn and even CLW turns into a strong heal. Between you and him your party shouldn't have problems.

IMHO
Blood~

[SinsI]

Is Gestalt an option?
I think it would be better if Scout or Bard change their characters.

[KnotaGuru]

Thanks all for the suggestions. The human paladin has committed to playing now, so that leaves only the cleric. We also have a lot of melee now (paladin, crusader, rogue). The DM wants to keep the party non-evil, so UrPriest is out. Since the group plays by RAW there will be no refluffing a UrPriest. Being evil would also take away healing blast (which you must be non-evil for). Eldritch disciple would also require a 2-level dip in UrPriest for access to 2nd-level spells and the ability to turn/rebuke undead not to mention 2 feats (Iron Will and Spell focus). The incarnum/soulspark idea seemed pretty funny, but I'm not sure that would fly, especially with a "good" group.

As I mentioned, I'm new to 3.5. I've played a lot of DnD 2nd ed and recently started playing pathfinder. I originally choose the warlock because I would have unlimited use spell-like abilities and no spells to memorize/pray for. The campaign has evolved from a trial run to something more stable.

I was really concerned with the perceived need for a divine class/healer in 3.5. The DM mentioned we could have an NPC or hireling cleric for heals too, but that adds another character that's taking rewards from the group (which is 6 members anyway). I've been trying to get feedback from the bard to see what his future character plans are and if we'll have everything covered between his skills/spells and warlock UMD.

I do like playing the ranged debuffer with some battlefield control (chilling tentacles) but I know that DnD is like football, you need to score points (cause damage) to win. I took spell penetration because vitriolic blast is only damage, but SP will apply to all my invocations. But if it's a wasted feat I could sub it out. I realize going ED would but me 3 levels behind in terms of compared power, which happens early in the leveling process. I was hoping that KN devotion would make up for the 1d6 EB dmg I'd be missing. ED route would give higher FORT save and more skill points too (though we have a bard and a rogue). The hellfire route looks like it would cause more damage. I'm not completely sold on eldritch glaive, but I have read that it is more effective for damage and debuffs.

BowStreetRunner, what did your eldritch disciple build look like, what level did your party start/finish at?

Thanks again all for the suggestions.