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Stoneback
2014-03-05, 01:51 AM
I was just looking at a bunch of 3D6-in-order ability score results, and there was an odd one: an elf with a wisdom and charisma of 4.

It got me thinking: what does such a low score mean in terms of charisma?

The other 5 scores, I can get a sense of what a very low or high score means. But what about Charisma?

AuraTwilight
2014-03-05, 02:08 AM
Charisma represents your force of personality and ability to assert yourself as an entity. A person of Charisma 3 is effectively at the bare minimum for creaturehood and is probably easy to manipulate.

Ksheep
2014-03-05, 02:14 AM
I'd say extremely awkward socially. Cannot pick up on body language, oftentimes slips up on etiquette, performs social faux pas on a regular basis, no good at expressing themselves, can't pick up on sarcasm or understand what sarcasm is… At least, that's one way to look at it. If you were to add in looks, you could say they have no fashion sense, possibly poor hygiene (or at least poor grooming) which results in poor teeth, BO, disheveled hair, and the like. People wouldn't want to associate with them, as they are very awkward to be around. Their lack of ability to pick up on social cues would also make them very easy marks for con men, as they couldn't tell when someone is lying, even if the lies are VERY obvious.

GoblinGilmartin
2014-03-05, 02:37 AM
I'd say extremely awkward socially. Cannot pick up on body language, oftentimes slips up on etiquette, performs social faux pas on a regular basis, no good at expressing themselves, can't pick up on sarcasm or understand what sarcasm is… At least, that's one way to look at it. If you were to add in looks, you could say they have no fashion sense, possibly poor hygiene (or at least poor grooming) which results in poor teeth, BO, disheveled hair, and the like. People wouldn't want to associate with them, as they are very awkward to be around. Their lack of ability to pick up on social cues would also make them very easy marks for con men, as they couldn't tell when someone is lying, even if the lies are VERY obvious.

The way I look at it is that with the non-physical Attributes, (WIS, INT, CHA), 3 is barely human, mostly animal. someone with a charisma of 3? You'd have to train them and lead them around on a leash, or they'd attack people they don't like, take things they want, and talk like a barbarian or just in growls.

Alternately, you'd probably end up like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPgcmsQO4Is#t=609
That is, bland as mush and easily swayed by others.

That's just me, though. I feel it's kind of a tough question.

Slipperychicken
2014-03-05, 02:41 AM
Cha 3 sounds like an inability to successfully deal with other people.

I'd list some example traits and behaviors as such:

Almost complete unawareness of social situations or basic etiquette.
No idea of what to say, or when to say things ("Wow you look like s***. Being a [insert racial slur here] must be so hard for you, how do you deal with it?"). There is no barrier between this person's mind and mouth. Whether he means to or not, he constantly offends others with his crass and dismissive remarks.
Never makes eye contact.
Bizarre and disgusting tics (picks nose and belly-button in public, flaps hands as if imitating a bird, cracks knuckles, rubs crotch)
Routinely shrieks, grunts, or makes similar unpleasant vocalizations, unknowingly interrupting other peoples' speech.
No inside voice. Either unintelligibly quiet or excessively loud.
Mumbles his own thoughts strangely and often, as though speaking to unheard voices. And not in a cool way, either. It just looks sad to watch.
Might be completely incapable of speech.
Stares creepily (i.e. his eyes are always on your chest/crotch, and it's really weird).
Drools.
Probably does not have any friends to speak of. Even this person's family would rather he simply disappeared.
No concept of personal space (will walk into kissing range and breathe creepily on you as if nothing's wrong. He will not get the hint.)
Extremely poor communication skills (rambles about nonsense without getting to the point, poor writing skills, will not allow others to speak)


Obviously, all of these at once would be more like Cha 1, but picking some of them should work.

Lorin
2014-03-05, 03:30 AM
Also had a similliar situation with ADnD game with a charisma of grand total of 4. I think that this guy just don't really think of himself as "human"\whateverhiscreaturetype. He may not be just socially inept, he also cannot assert himself. People tend to overlook and dismiss his suggestions, not because he disgust them, they just cannot really notice him. It is hard for him to make decisions. He considers himself more of a doll, or a tool, he isn't bad at picking lies (sense motive is a wisdom, after all, at least it was decent in my case), just sarcasm, and without ability to insticivly pick up on decent or not decent things (abovementioned social faux pas) he tries to depend on logic, which sometimes backfires. In other words it is more of emotionless socially incapable husk. He operates just fine and can think just fine, he just cannot really identify himself as part of socium or really as anything...

Tengu_temp
2014-03-05, 05:32 AM
Charisma and Wisdom 4 means that you're pretty much Chris-chan. Look him up if you don't know who that is. Or better yet, don't. It's saner this way.

AMFV
2014-03-05, 05:50 AM
There's heavy debate over exactly what that would mean, it would mean roughly that your personality is equivalent to an animal's intelligence. There's significant inconsistency in the rules as to whether or not appearance is a factor (maiming strike damaging charisma for one, ugly monsters having lower charisma in AD&D), or whether it's just force of personality. I would say the actual effect of a score that's so low would be that you'd just barely have any personality at all (but it's not quite clear).

So the end point is that the whole matter is generally moot, and will vary greatly from game to game.

Spiryt
2014-03-05, 05:54 AM
Incredibly low ability to influence other more or less sapient beings in any way, even if you can beat them up without breaking a sweat, have more money, power and whatever else.


Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor

So I would guess that character with 3 charisma is somehow 'asleep' in any social situations, cannot follow changes and emotions in relations, cannot understand what is happening.

Is easily influenced and 'dragged around' like a sleeping person indeed, or/and in other situations is completely, morbidly non-responding to interpersonal stimuli.

Thrudd
2014-03-05, 06:24 AM
3 charisma is still within the range of human/demi-human ability scores, so it isn't like an animal. In AD&D, 3 charisma still allows you to have one henchman (though they are more likely to run away), so it isn't something that wealth and fame can't overcome somewhat. You definitely shouldn't be negotiating for the party or be responsible for leading the troops, but you aren't some kind of monster (unless you are). You may be average looking with very poor social skills, or ugly by "civilized" standards or generally off-putting for some other reason.

Mastikator
2014-03-05, 07:02 AM
Wisdom and charisma of 4 is you're basically a shell of a person. You can think logically, but you almost lack any will of your own. You're basically a robot.

Hytheter
2014-03-05, 07:11 AM
Their lack of ability to pick up on social cues would also make them very easy marks for con men, as they couldn't tell when someone is lying, even if the lies are VERY obvious.

Charisma represents your force of personality and ability to assert yourself as an entity. A person of Charisma 3 is effectively at the bare minimum for creaturehood and is probably easy to manipulate.
Aren't these more a feature of Wisdom? Sense Motive detects lies, and Will saves are generally the first defense against manipulation effects. An easily manipulated person would probably have low Wisdom, but may still have high Charisma.

Similarly...

The way I look at it is that with the non-physical Attributes, (WIS, INT, CHA), 3 is barely human, mostly animal. someone with a charisma of 3? You'd have to train them and lead them around on a leash, or they'd attack people they don't like, take things they want, and talk like a barbarian or just in growls.
This basically sounds like an animal. But even animals, in 3.5 at least, have a Charisma of 6. I'm pretty sure that kind of behaviour would be more attributable to low intellegence than charisma.

If you want to know what a low charisma means, it's probably best to look at the game mechanics that it affects. It's tied to skills that involve influencing other people, so it follows that a low Charisma means you have next to no ability to influence others. Why this might be likely varies from person to person, but there's got to be more to it than language skills and behaviour because again, even animals have 6 charisma.

Eldan
2014-03-05, 07:13 AM
I'm annoyed by people who say that he'd basically be an animal, that he'd have to be trained or leashed. Why? A 3 is as likely as an 18, by the normal distribution. Is someone with an 18 in their intelligence or charisma so otherworldly they can not connect with normal people on a meaningful level? No. Neither is someone with a 3 a barely-coherent animal.

AMFV
2014-03-05, 07:38 AM
I'm annoyed by people who say that he'd basically be an animal, that he'd have to be trained or leashed. Why? A 3 is as likely as an 18, by the normal distribution. Is someone with an 18 in their intelligence or charisma so otherworldly they can not connect with normal people on a meaningful level? No. Neither is someone with a 3 a barely-coherent animal.

As the person who said that, I think you guys are misinterpreting my statement. I was saying that his Charisma would be roughly analogous to an animal's intelligence, since intelligence is easier to measure and understand conceptually while Charisma is extremely difficult and is often subject to vast changes in understanding from writer to writer (even in the same system). I was trying to create an analog for the charisma to a stat that's easier to understand..

Also very few (I think no) animals have a Charisma that low either.

hamishspence
2014-03-05, 07:44 AM
Centipedes are Charisma 2:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#centipedeSwarm

as are Monstrous Centipedes:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousCentipede.htm

Hytheter
2014-03-05, 07:58 AM
Centipedes are Charisma 2:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#centipedeSwarm

as are Monstrous Centipedes:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousCentipede.htm

They're not animals, they're vermin.

:P

geeky_monkey
2014-03-05, 07:59 AM
I'd play someone with a charisma score that low like Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory.

You'd have no understanding of normal human dynamics, social norms would be a mystery to you and would have to be a learned response (if you could be bothered) rather than coming to you normally.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-03-05, 08:00 AM
A Charisma of 3? The person is rude and abusive to everyone they meet, is likely vain and egotistical, completely non-empathic and blind to other people's feelings, they would have no social standing at all, and no physical presence to intimidate people into doing their bidding. And if they do have a follower/henchman, they may well have an abusive relationship :smalleek:.

And while I'm loathe to tie physical looks into the charisma stat (someone physically attractive may still have low charisma due to their inter-personal skills and vice versa), they may also possibly have things like facial tattoos that cause other people to view them with disdain. But, IMO, such things would probably be situational modifiers - tribal facial tattoos might give minus in large cities or to the tribes enemies, but would be beneficial within the tribe themselves or their allies, especially if they're a sign of rank within those groups.

Mastikator
2014-03-05, 09:02 AM
I'm annoyed by people who say that he'd basically be an animal, that he'd have to be trained or leashed. Why? A 3 is as likely as an 18, by the normal distribution. Is someone with an 18 in their intelligence or charisma so otherworldly they can not connect with normal people on a meaningful level? No. Neither is someone with a 3 a barely-coherent animal.

A character with 3 in intelligence would be closer to chimps and dolphins (and maybe ravens?) than an average human.

Likewise from an 18's intelligence perspective the difference between them and other people is almost as big as other people and intelligent animals.

Charisma on the other hand would always make it easier to connect with people no matter how high it got. I expect someone with 18 charisma would very easily deal with anyone and always get their way, someone with 3 would be either universally hated or (more likely) totally ignored and have no friends. It probably wouldn't occur to a 3-charisma to keep in touch with your friends.

Other than being mental stats intelligence and charisma are extremely different.

Edit- I suck at spelling.

Joe the Rat
2014-03-05, 09:41 AM
It will vary a little by which D&D you are using. But the core of low Charisma is that you are unlikeable, and do poorly when it comes to trying to motivate or influence others. It's not a lack of sense of self, it's a lack of ability to impose your will on another. You could be an abhorrent slob with no social graces and a face a dog would bury, or you could be a nebbishy wallflower with a quiet voice and unremarkable looks.

Paired with low wisdom, you're looking at a lack of common sense, and/or willpower, and/or awareness of the world around them (again, depending on editions). This is where "easily manipulated" may come into play.

These are good stats for a lackey (but not a toady). You may have your own goals and motives, but easily bend to another's desires.

DrBurr
2014-03-05, 10:24 AM
I'd play someone with a charisma score that low like Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory.

You'd have no understanding of normal human dynamics, social norms would be a mystery to you and would have to be a learned response (if you could be bothered) rather than coming to you normally.

With a Charisma of 3 I'd see someone more like Tarzan than Sheldon.

Sheldon by all means has low charisma but is high enough that he regularly wins arguments, makes snappy comebacks and understands basic social norms, Sheldon is just more likely to act like a child when he doesn't get his way. This strikes me as more around 6 or 7 a little bit below the 10 baseline and just under the acceptable 8 in a basic array. A 6-7 is a reasonable Charisma for a commoner child seeing as their not fully developed.

A character with 3 charisma though lacks social skills we'd expect and doesn't understand things like Sarcasm, manners and by RAW suffers huge penalties to intimidation and negotiation, We also know 3 charisma is a more common in animals. This makes me think of how Tarzan interacts with Jane, a more bliss stance to the Human social skills while he does understand his ape social skills.

Red Fel
2014-03-05, 10:26 AM
I've always seen Charisma as the more offensive mental stat - that is, the outgoing force of personality, as opposed to the stabilizing force (e.g. Wis). Thus, a person with low Charisma either has little outgoing force of personality, or it is negative, or they haven't much visible personality to speak of.

This means that people are unlikely to pay attention to you when you want them to, or in the manner in which you want them to. They will notice you when you want to be unnoticed, take offense when you want to be polite, and disregard you when you insist on urgency. They will think you're joking when you're serious, and take you far too seriously when you make a joke. They will find you un-funny and unappealing. They will shun you if they can, and ignore you if they cannot.

Consider, for example, that a common housecat has Charisma 7 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm). The little buggers are adorable (http://cheezburger.com/8086811136). However, they have less force of personality than an average human. A cat may be able to get you to do things by gnawing on your leg, or giving you the eyes, or mewling pitifully, or typing in broken English, but it can't make an argument that compels you to act. This of course has nothing to do with its inability to speak.

Cha 3 has a fraction of that force of personality. You couldn't convince a drunk to relieve himself if his bladder were overflowing.

When people refer to Cha 0 being "catatonic," I rule that as having so little force of personality that the character basically ceases to exercise any influence on the world around him. Even an insect has enough personality to act on things; a creature with 0 Charisma simply lacks the agency, the self-governance, to impose his will on the world, because he lacks the outgoing will to impose.

The awkward thing about Cha is how readily it mixes with Wis. It's very hard, for example, to visualize a character with low Cha but high Wis, particularly given how the concept of personality overlaps between the two. (Dr. Sheldon Cooper is an exception, but it can be argued that despite his social awkwardness, he has a very high Cha, as he is able to consistently impose his will on others.) It's much easier to imagine that both Int and Wis are low, and that therefore a person isn't much of a person at all, at least in terms of a person's personality being personable.

hamishspence
2014-03-05, 10:28 AM
Owls are Cha 4, Crocodiles, lizards, sharks etc Cha 2, and octopi Cha 3.

PersonMan
2014-03-05, 10:32 AM
is likely vain and egotistical

Unrelated to Charisma.



completely non-empathic and blind to other people's feelings

Charisma =/= Wisdom.

hamishspence
2014-03-05, 10:36 AM
The awkward thing about Cha is how readily it mixes with Wis. It's very hard, for example, to visualize a character with low Cha but high Wis, particularly given how the concept of personality overlaps between the two.

It's very common for animals though - low WIS is rarer than low CHA for them, I think.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#theAbilities

Wisdom (Wis)
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

It's possible that most animals have to "be in tune with and aware of their surroundings" to hunt and to avoid hunters.

Nooblet
2014-03-05, 10:39 AM
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

I find it amusing that people are avoiding the last part of the definition of Charisma.

Yes, all of the above when it comes to force of personality, but I am sorry if you have a 3 in your charisma score, you are terribly ugly (by the majority of societies standards, possible physical defect etc).

So no "Sheldon" would not be a Charisma 3, because he isn't ugly to the point of being off putting.

hamishspence
2014-03-05, 10:41 AM
I figure it's much less important - since there are numerous "ugly" monsters with high charisma, it seems logical that there can be numerous "attractive" people with low charisma.

Nooblet
2014-03-05, 10:50 AM
I figure it's much less important - since there are numerous "ugly" monsters with high charisma, it seems logical that there can be numerous "attractive" people with low charisma.

Not sure if that is applicable. Most races will find other races to be less attractive (to an extent, there are always exceptions), so saying that a monster is "ugly" to a PC race but has high charisma doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Also it isn't less important, because there are people in this world who simply don't take "ugly" people are serious as they do attractive people. (Hence why it affects your ability to deal with others)

The point being though, is that if you have a very low charisma score (3, not 7 or 6, but 3) chances are you are ugly. At what degree you are ugly is debatable.

hamishspence
2014-03-05, 10:53 AM
Maybe we could dig through the splatbooks with statted characters - to see if there are any with unusually low Cha and what those look like?

Pyra
2014-03-05, 10:54 AM
I submit that if you take Charisma to solely mean appearance, then a 3 would equate to someone who looks like Nobby Nobbs.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/DiscworldCityWatch

However, as noted that Corporal Nobbs can get along with everyone, so his actually D&D charisma score would be higher than that.

The flip side of the coin on the Discworld would be someone like Verence of Lancre, who is described as a ruler who "is trying to improve the country through political and social reforms. The people of Lancre politely listen to his suggestions and then ignore him and keep doing what they've always done." He looks appropriately kingly, but the force of personality is lacking. I'd peg him with a Charisma of 5 or so, but it could easily be lower.

Since what charisma actually means tends to be the source of many D&D debates, witness this thread, I like the idea of breaking it out into two different stats, say Charisma and Comeliness, so you can properly express physical appearance and the ability to get people to do what you want them to without getting tangled up in the 'But how does someone who looks like a cross between a chimpanzee and a goblin convince the barkeep to give him a free beer?'

Red Fel
2014-03-05, 10:54 AM
I figure it's much less important - since there are numerous "ugly" monsters with high charisma, it seems logical that there can be numerous "attractive" people with low charisma.

This. A person can be stunningly gorgeous, but smell horrible, have odious habits, and an irritating tendency to say the worst possible thing at the worst possible time. Being an Adonis doesn't make up for being an atrocious person.

People are ignoring the "physical attractiveness" aspect in this thread because it is such a minor aspect of the Charisma attribute.

Also, with regard to high-Wis-low-Cha animals, I agree and that makes perfect sense. But in that context, we are talking specifically about an animal's ability to observe, listen to, and be aware of its surroundings, usually for the purpose of hunting or avoiding being hunted. When discussing more humanoid PCs, the focus shifts from Wis-as-situational-awareness to Wis-as-social-awareness-and-sense-of-self. In that context - particularly with regard to the sense of self - it becomes much harder to distinguish between Wis-as-self and Cha-as-self.

But yes, I think animals having high Wis and low Cha makes perfect sense, for the reason you state.

Slipperychicken
2014-03-05, 10:55 AM
I'm annoyed by people who say that he'd basically be an animal, that he'd have to be trained or leashed. Why? A 3 is as likely as an 18, by the normal distribution. Is someone with an 18 in their intelligence or charisma so otherworldly they can not connect with normal people on a meaningful level? No. Neither is someone with a 3 a barely-coherent animal.

Well, he's certainly less charismatic than most animals, on average. Mules have better social acumen than this dude, to say nothing of weasels and monkeys :smallbiggrin:

I'm not saying he'd need a leash (I bet such a person might be able to scrape by in a society if he had marketable skills), but you know you're bad with people when your camel is more likable than you.

Ksheep
2014-03-05, 11:00 AM
Well, he's certainly less charismatic than most animals, on average. Mules have better social acumen than this dude, to say nothing of weasels and monkeys :smallbiggrin:

You know you're bad with people when your camel is more likable than you.

Would YOU like to get on the bad side of a mule or a camel? Ignoring them when they really want to do something is a great way to be kicked. I'd say that threat of a kick alone could be fairly intimidating, especially if you don't have some abstract health and armor systems set up…

Slipperychicken
2014-03-05, 11:02 AM
Would YOU like to get on the bad side of a mule or a camel? Ignoring them when they really want to do something is a great way to be kicked. I'd say that threat of a kick alone could be fairly intimidating, especially if you don't have some abstract health and armor systems set up…

That's a good point. On top of their charisma, mules also get +4 Intimidate due to size :smallbiggrin:

Nooblet
2014-03-05, 11:32 AM
This. A person can be stunningly gorgeous, but smell horrible, have odious habits, and an irritating tendency to say the worst possible thing at the worst possible time. Being an Adonis doesn't make up for being an atrocious person.

People are ignoring the "physical attractiveness" aspect in this thread because it is such a minor aspect of the Charisma attribute.

Also, with regard to high-Wis-low-Cha animals, I agree and that makes perfect sense. But in that context, we are talking specifically about an animal's ability to observe, listen to, and be aware of its surroundings, usually for the purpose of hunting or avoiding being hunted. When discussing more humanoid PCs, the focus shifts from Wis-as-situational-awareness to Wis-as-social-awareness-and-sense-of-self. In that context - particularly with regard to the sense of self - it becomes much harder to distinguish between Wis-as-self and Cha-as-self.

But yes, I think animals having high Wis and low Cha makes perfect sense, for the reason you state.

I disagree, I am pretty sure someone cannot "naturally" smell without the aid of magic. So the smell portion would come from cleanliness. So therefore I roll a character, have a dump stat of "4 Charisma", I happen to take a shower and my charisma score jumps to.....6? Not sure if you can realistically accept that.

As far as odious habits, there are many attractive people with odious habits. Think of the supermodel who uses her rich boyfriend for money (or vise versa if you are offended of me arbitrarily picking sexes). She gets by completely on her looks. Also I have met many people who put up with "individuals who say the wrong thing at the wrong time" simply because they are attractive.

Also, what if your character goes through town trying to talk to NPCs and they almost always refuse your business simply because you are "hideous"? Or maybe the King or Queen (arbitrary characters) ignores you because of that fact, even though you have something important to report?

I am sorry, you cannot say objectively that looks is the least important aspect of charisma. Maybe you feel that way, but it doesn't make it true.

Red Fel
2014-03-05, 11:55 AM
I disagree, I am pretty sure someone cannot "naturally" smell without the aid of magic. So the smell portion would come from cleanliness. So therefore I roll a character, have a dump stat of "4 Charisma", I happen to take a shower and my charisma score jumps to.....6? Not sure if you can realistically accept that.

As far as odious habits, there are many attractive people with odious habits. Think of the supermodel who uses her rich boyfriend for money (or vise versa if you are offended of me arbitrarily picking sexes). She gets by completely on her looks. Also I have met many people who put up with "individuals who say the wrong thing at the wrong time" simply because they are attractive.

Also, what if your character goes through town trying to talk to NPCs and they almost always refuse your business simply because you are "hideous"? Or maybe the King or Queen (arbitrary characters) ignores you because of that fact, even though you have something important to report?

I am sorry, you cannot say objectively that looks is the least important aspect of charisma. Maybe you feel that way, but it doesn't make it true.

While I acknowledge that physical attractiveness is an element of Charisma - as explicitly stated in the description of the attribute - I also acknowledge that we disagree on how important an element it is.

The problem with Charisma as an attribute, as opposed to almost any other attribute, is the idea that you can assign an objective and arbitrary number to it. We can look at two people, subject them to a test of lifting and jumping, and determine that this one has more Strength than that one. We can beat up two people and determine that this one has more Constitution than that one. We can blindfold two people, expose them to various stimuli, and extrapolate that this one, being more situationally aware, likely has higher Wis than that one.

But appearance is not objective; it is subjective. I will even acknowledge that manners and habits are subjective. What is attractive to an Elf may be hideous to an Orc. What seems perfectly acceptable in terms of hygiene and humor to an Orc may be abhorrent to an Elf. And so forth. It is exceedingly difficult, therefore, to say "this character has a low Cha, and is therefore ugly to everyone." I guarantee you that there is a race that finds scars attractive, another that finds an excess of mucus to be a sign of virility, and still another that recognizes that those who regularly pick at their orifices are clearly conscious of hygiene. That's why I devalue physical attractiveness as an element of Charisma.

To assume physical appearance is the primary measure of Charisma, we must similarly assume that your Charisma score would vary depending on your company. Like your example of showering to change one's Charisma score, a gorgeous Elf amongst Elves might have a Cha of 16; but amongst Orcs, should it then drop to 8?

There are exceptions, of course. Creatures like the Fey are known for their "otherworldly beauty," but that's in part supernatural. These creatures will be considered beautiful regardless of species or society, simply because they are suffused with a supernaturally charming air. But these, I think, are an exception, rather than the rule.

This is why I think it is far more valuable, in this context, to view Charisma as a measure of one's force of personality, which can be seen as more objective, than as one's physical attractiveness, which can be subjective. Force of personality does not vary between Elves, Orcs, or Fey - if you are a passive person, you're passive regardless of race or society; if you impose your will on others, you do so regardless of race or society, although the methods may vary. In order for the numbers to remain objectively reasonable, they should apply primarily to objective measures.

Ksheep
2014-03-05, 12:07 PM
You also have the issue with Reincarnate. If you change race due to Reincarnate, your physical stats (STR, CON, DEX) may change, but your menials (INT, WIS, CHA) stay the same. Even if you change from something that normally has a bonus to charisma, such as Drow or Chaos Gnome, into something that normally has a minus to charisma, such as a Half-Orc or Goblin, your charisma score remains the same, despite now being in a body that is often seen as less attractive. This leads credence to the theory that Charisma is mostly based on how one acts, how aware they are of their actions and how socially permissible said actions are. It can also indicate how well the character is as manipulating social situations in their favor (something which the Drow, which get a +2 Charisma score, excel at).

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-03-05, 12:31 PM
Unrelated to Charisma.

Charisma =/= Wisdom.

Vanity is likely to negatively influence people. Ditto for egotism. Equally, someone who is beyond scruffy, or thinks themselves beneath everyone else, would be unable to influence people either.

And while empathy has some aspects in Wisdom (seeing how people are reacting and reacting accordingly), I'd argue it has a lot to do with Charisma as well (you're a lot better at influencing people if they think you understand them, and even better if you actually do).


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

I find it amusing that people are avoiding the last part of the definition of Charisma.

And the problem there is that beauty is in the eye of the large-spherical eye creature that never got released to the SRD. I might say such and such a person is attractive, you might agree, someone else might utterly disagree, and a fourth person might say "Meh, I prefer this person instead".

Back in 1st edition, some races (Half Orcs for instance) had charisma penalties to their base stats. However, they still counted as their original charisma to their own race - whether this is down to simple looks, or other matters (general lack of social graces at one end, to outright racism at the other), isn't really defined.

Although at least the comeliness stat (which muddied the charisma stat waters even further) never got out of the 1st edition UA.


I submit that if you take Charisma to solely mean appearance, then a 3 would equate to someone who looks like Nobby Nobbs.

Considering Nobby's supposed to have Charis-n't-ma, I'd suggest that by that measure, he'd be in minus figures.

AMFV
2014-03-05, 12:34 PM
I figure it's much less important - since there are numerous "ugly" monsters with high charisma, it seems logical that there can be numerous "attractive" people with low charisma.

That's why I said it's hotly debated, for example Maiming Strike drains charisma, is entirely mundane and only affects physical appearance. Different writers seemed to have different takes on the same issue, or as to exactly what Charisma involves.

SimonMoon6
2014-03-05, 01:12 PM
I'll just mention some misconceptions some players have had about a low Charisma. Some people think it's an excuse to be rude and crude, in order to cause deliberate offense to other characters.

No, you can't do that. You don't have the force of personality to be noticed by other people. You don't have the ability to affect their opinions of you one way or another. You're a quiet (possibly mumbling incoherently) wallflower.

You're not going to be the loud guy that everybody notices. That takes charisma. You're not the cool "says what he wants no matter what others think about him" guy. You're the guy nobody listens to.

If anyone notices you, it's with pity or disinterest. Nobody gives you a second glance, until you want to be unnoticed, in which case everybody points and laughs at you.

AMFV
2014-03-05, 01:20 PM
I'll just mention some misconceptions some players have had about a low Charisma. Some people think it's an excuse to be rude and crude, in order to cause deliberate offense to other characters.

No, you can't do that. You don't have the force of personality to be noticed by other people. You don't have the ability to affect their opinions of you one way or another. You're a quiet (possibly mumbling incoherently) wallflower.

You're not going to be the loud guy that everybody notices. That takes charisma. You're not the cool "says what he wants no matter what others think about him" guy. You're the guy nobody listens to.

If anyone notices you, it's with pity or disinterest. Nobody gives you a second glance, until you want to be unnoticed, in which case everybody points and laughs at you.

Being unnoticed would probably be dexterity. You could be the loud person that everybody notices, but you'd have a negative reception, the boisterous jock isn't what we're thinking it's the guy who's always blurting out the wrong thing, or who has bad hygiene, or whatever. The point is that while your description is sometimes accurate they vary quite a bit depending on the writer, characters that do not fit your description have had low charisma, and some people with higher charisma have been shyer, it just depends on the writer, Charisma is not a set in stone stat.

Spiryt
2014-03-05, 01:40 PM
I'll just mention some misconceptions some players have had about a low Charisma. Some people think it's an excuse to be rude and crude, in order to cause deliberate offense to other characters.

No, you can't do that. You don't have the force of personality to be noticed by other people. You don't have the ability to affect their opinions of you one way or another. You're a quiet (possibly mumbling incoherently) wallflower.

You're not going to be the loud guy that everybody notices. That takes charisma. You're not the cool "says what he wants no matter what others think about him" guy. You're the guy nobody listens to.

If anyone notices you, it's with pity or disinterest. Nobody gives you a second glance, until you want to be unnoticed, in which case everybody points and laughs at you.

Very much agree.

If somebody with that low Charisma would actually be very loud, and what ever, he would still be ignored in one way or the other, that's the point.

Interpreting it literally with decibels scale is wrong, of course.

Such character would be immediately ridiculed, scorned, or just treated as interesting commodity, if he had actually tired to be 'loud'.

kieza
2014-03-05, 01:48 PM
There are a couple of ways I've played it:

1) The complete nebbish: you have so little backbone that people walk all over you. When you try to be nice, people see you as a servant. When you try to lie, your hesitant presentation makes people dismiss whatever you say. When you try to scare people, they laugh because they can't believe that you would ever follow through.

2) The jerk: everything you do rubs people the wrong way. When you try to be nice to people, it comes across as condescension. When you try to intimidate someone, you're so arrogant that they defy you out of spite. When you try to lie, you insult the target of your deception so that they ignore whatever you're trying to tell them.

3) The subhuman: you have such repellent personal habits and hygiene that people instinctively avoid you. Whenever you interact with other people, they're so busy avoiding skin contact and trying not to gag that they don't pay any attention to what you say or do.

Stoneback
2014-03-05, 02:06 PM
This is all very good. I like the vigorous back and forth. Thanks to all~~

Segev
2014-03-05, 02:30 PM
Just to throw in my two cents (as I like this topic), Charisma is about your ability to impress your will upon others and, in D&D, the world at large, based solely on your force of presence.

Low Charisma can mean you are ugly and smelly and have bad personal habits, but if so, you're ugly and smelly in a way that makes people just trundle you off to the side and get rid of you without conceding anything to you, and your odious personal habits just make people dismiss you rather than allowing you to actually disgust them into doing something YOU want them to.

Low Charisma means that, no matter how you look or what your manners, you just don't make an impression. Or, if you do, it's fleeting. People only talk about you the way they would furniture or pets. You are, at most, a 1-dimensional punching bag or object of admiration. Nobody actually cares about you beyond their preconceptions of you and your place as a prop in their world-view.

Low Charisma makes you more an object than a person in people's minds, essentially.

Mutazoia
2014-03-05, 03:50 PM
Wisdom and charisma of 4 is you're basically a shell of a person. You can think logically, but you almost lack any will of your own. You're basically a robot.

Hodor. Hodor hodor hodor, hodor hodor: Hodor!

veti
2014-03-05, 04:02 PM
If you're playing AD&D, a character with two stats of 5 or lower is officially unplayable.

With a WIS of 5 or lower, the character can only be a thief. With a CHA of 5 or lower, the character can only be an assassin. With two stats in that range, there's no class you can legally be.

Just sayin'.

Ksheep
2014-03-05, 04:13 PM
If you're playing AD&D, a character with two stats of 5 or lower is officially unplayable.

With a WIS of 5 or lower, the character can only be a thief. With a CHA of 5 or lower, the character can only be an assassin. With two stats in that range, there's no class you can legally be.

Just sayin'.

1st Ed. or 2nd?

Svata
2014-03-05, 04:17 PM
1st Ed. or 2nd?

Yes. Ten Characters

veti
2014-03-05, 04:18 PM
1st Ed. or 2nd?

Definitely 1st. Not sure if the rule made it into 2nd.

Joe the Rat
2014-03-05, 04:22 PM
Definitely 1st. Not sure if the rule made it into 2nd.That and Assassin didn't make it into 2nd... at first.

Actually, I don't remember any minimums other that specific class requisites in 2nd.

Shalist
2014-03-05, 04:34 PM
I see wisdom as one's awareness of the world around them, and charisma as their self-awareness. Someone with high charisma, knows what they want out of life, and will knowingly take tremendous risks if necessary, moving the heavens and earth themselves to ensure that every single day moves them a step closer to realizing those dreams and ambitions. Their passion and confidence are reflected in a million different ways via their thoughts, actions, and body language, which in turn affect how they are perceived by others.

Someone with lower charisma has nothing they feel passionate about. No hobbies, goals, dreams, or ambition, or anything to look forward to beyond the drudgery of another day. If dissatisfied, they merely tell themselves they are content, or daydream about a better life, finding no shortage of excuses to avoid taking risks or exerting themselves, quite content to wait...and wait...and wait...for world to change around them.

edit: tl;dr high charisma = leader w/ a sense of purpose; low charisma = henchman

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-03-06, 04:45 AM
Thinking on this last night, I came up with, what is IMO, a perfect example of low and high charisma.

On the low side, from Red Dwarf, we have Arnold Rimmer. On the high side, Ace Rimmer. The same person physically, but one is confident, self-assured, brave, heroic and can snap the knicker elastic of both genders at 100 paces. The others is a miserable coward who even managed to fall out with himself, and who's sole sexual experience was with someone who was concussed at the time.

In fact, the entire crew of Red Dwarf are probably in single figures for Charisma - Lister's a cheeky chappie and personable, but is an absolute slob and has little motivation. Cat is narssisstic and egotistical, and while Kryten might just make it as the one sane man, he's programmed to obey, not to lead.

Alternatively, there's the three Slayers from Buffy - Kendra was book smart (likely high Int and Wis), but socially awkward and wouldn't take the lead (low-Cha). Faith's more instinctive (average Int and Wis IMO) and very emotional, but at the same time, she's out for herself and, even when she first appeared, carries massive psychological issues (IMO, putting her Cha at about 12-14, she might attract people to follow her, but sooner or later, they'll start to think it's a bad idea and leave).

Buffy however, is intelligent enough to get 4.0 on her SATs, sassy and quick witted, and is both charismatic enough for Cordelia to try and induct her into her clique when she first arrives in Sunnydale, and the focal point of the scooby gang, although there are times when the group falls apart around her (for example, at the end of series 4 thanks to Spike, and towards the end of series 7) - I'd put all three of her Int, Wis and Cha at between 14 and 16.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-03-06, 05:11 AM
Thinking on this last night, I came up with, what is IMO, a perfect example of low and high charisma.

On the low side, from Red Dwarf, we have Arnold Rimmer. On the high side, Ace Rimmer. The same person physically, but one is confident, self-assured, brave, heroic and can snap the knicker elastic of both genders at 100 paces. The others is a miserable coward who even managed to fall out with himself.

In fact, the entire crew of Red Dwarf are probably in single figures for Charisma - Lister's a cheeky chappie and personable, but is an absolute slob and has little motivation. Cat is narcissistic and egotistical, and while Kryten might just make it as the one sane man, he's programmed to obey, not to lead.

Alternatively, there's the three Slayers from Buffy - Kendra was book smart (likely high Int and Wis), but socially awkward and wouldn't take the lead (low Cha). Faith's more instinctive (average Int and Wis IMO) and very emotional, but at the same time, she's out for herself and, even when she first appeared, carries massive psychological issues (IMO, putting her Cha at about 12-14, she might attract people to follow her, but sooner or later, they'll start to think it's a bad idea and leave).

Buffy however, is intelligent enough to get 4.0 on her SATs, sassy and quick witted, and is both physically attractive enough for Cordelia to try and induct her into her clique when she first arrives in Sunnydale, and the focal point of the scooby gang, although there are times when the group falls apart around her (for example, at the end of series 4 thanks to Spike, and towards the end of series 7) - I'd put all three of her Int, Wis and Cha at between 14 and 16.

I'm sure everyone will now completely disagree with me... :smallwink:


If you're playing AD&D, a character with two stats of 5 or lower is officially unplayable.

With a WIS of 5 or lower, the character can only be a thief. With a CHA of 5 or lower, the character can only be an assassin. With two stats in that range, there's no class you can legally be.

Just sayin'.
Thief/Assassin? :smallwink:

I found the upper limits more of an issue personally - if you roll well enough, why can't you have a highly intelligent fighter, for example? Especially if you're considering, say, dual-classing to mage later on.

veti
2014-03-06, 04:17 PM
Thief/Assassin? :smallwink:

That's not "only" a thief...


I found the upper limits more of an issue personally - if you roll well enough, why can't you have a highly intelligent fighter, for example? Especially if you're considering, say, dual-classing to mage later on.

I don't recall any upper limits, except the racial maxima. Was there really an upper limit for a fighter's INT?

Ksheep
2014-03-06, 04:43 PM
I don't recall any upper limits, except the racial maxima. Was there really an upper limit for a fighter's INT?

Looking at my 1st Ed book, only maximums I'm seeing are for Races (and genders), not Classes. That said, some of these minimum restrictions are kinda odd, such as Paladin. Minimum Strength of 12, Int of 9, Wis of 13, Con of 9, and CHARISMA MUST BE 17 OR HIGHER. Oh, and you HAVE to be Human… Something tells me Paladins weren't very common in 1st ed…

Slipperychicken
2014-03-06, 06:43 PM
Looking at my 1st Ed book, only maximums I'm seeing are for Races (and genders), not Classes. That said, some of these minimum restrictions are kinda odd, such as Paladin. Minimum Strength of 12, Int of 9, Wis of 13, Con of 9, and CHARISMA MUST BE 17 OR HIGHER. Oh, and you HAVE to be Human… Something tells me Paladins weren't very common in 1st ed…

Wasn't the idea to make a point about how only the most awesome and pure of heart could ever become Paladins?

Ksheep
2014-03-06, 07:03 PM
Wasn't the idea to make a point about how only the most awesome and pure of heart could ever become Paladins?

Well, either that or they need to be able to talk their way in. I mean really, it's starting to sound like a "Cool Kids" clique, and if you aren't attractive enough you can't get in.

Wardog
2014-03-06, 07:37 PM
Well, either that or they need to be able to talk their way in. I mean really, it's starting to sound like a "Cool Kids" clique, and if you aren't attractive enough you can't get in.

I assume it was because they were supposed to be leaders and exemplars - the sort of person that everyone would want to follow.

Hytheter
2014-03-06, 08:21 PM
Looking at my 1st Ed book, only maximums I'm seeing are for Races (and genders)

Say what now?

veti
2014-03-06, 08:45 PM
Say what now?

*shrug* That was the rule back then.

You don't like it? don't play that rule. Nobody I know ever did.

Ksheep
2014-03-06, 09:10 PM
Say what now?

For certain stats and races, there is a difference between the maximum allowed value for males and females. For instance, the max Strength for Gnome males was 18, while Gnome females max out at 15 Strength.

As I look into it further, it appears that (from the PHB races at least), the only difference is in maximum Strength, and there is no difference for Half-Orcs. Likewise, while it uses the Male/Female notation for Minimum stats, none of the races have differences between male/female for the minimum allowed stat for any of the stats.

EDIT: Here's the table in question, if you're curious.

http://i.imgur.com/J0Q6P6x.jpg

Ninja Bear
2014-03-07, 03:33 PM
...intelligent enough to get 4.0 on her SATs...
wat

Anyway, my go-to for 3 CHA would be Wally from the Dilbert comic strip (http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2000-08-13/). Strongly unlikeable/unmotivated/unattractive, but still capable of functioning in a "party."