PF: Rogue (Sniper, Scout) Build Advice

[Jane_Smith]

First, I am correct in assuming the sniper and scout archetypes for pathfinder's rogue class can be used together, as they do not change the same things? If not, then dismiss everything below.


My goal with this build is to find ways to more easily gain a ranged sneak attack, allowing a ranged rogue to function properly.

Sniper Archetype: Improves the range you can make a sneak attack by +10 at level 3 and every 3 levels beyond that. No hard cap is listed, so if the game is epic, or continues into epic levels, this ability could allow a level 30 rogue to make 130 foot sneak attacks on demand. But, on a more reasonable level, were talking at least 40-60 sneak attack ranges early/mid-game, 70-90 late. It also acts as a free Far Shot feat, which I would assume stacks with Far Shot (Though that would be unnecessary).

Scout Archetype: Charge and attack, you get a free sneak attack application to your damage unless they have uncanny dodge. Situational, and I am not sure if bows can be used with a charge. If not, is there a way to gain the use of a bow during a charge?

Besides that, the ability to move 10 feet and gain sneak attack damage even on enemies who are not flat footed, is what I am salivating for. I believe there is a feat, or trait, that allows you to make two 5 foot steps in a single turn, or up to 10 foot in a single 5 foot step action? That combined with rapid shot and the scouts ability to move and sneak attack, in my eyes, could make the bow-rogue a viable pick again.

The idea is essentially to dip into fighter 4 for weapon specialization, weapon focus, and weapon training for damage, elven bow mastery for added dex to bow damage within 30 feet, and deadly shot for power-attack strikes. I am also considering arcane strike, magical knack (rogue), and taking a talent to gain gravity bow as a spell-like ability, and possibly going into improved unarmed strike, snake style mastery and snap shot.

Lastly, my character is a drow, and poison use is on the table. Which would be better? Drow knockout poison, any poison that damages dex (making me hit them easier on next hits), or poison that damages con (for more overall "you die fast")? I also found a lovely poison that just deals 2d12 hit point damage and con damage each turn.

Overall build by level 20 - 6 Rogue (Sniper/Scout) / 4 Fighter (Archer) / 10 Assassin. 50 foot range sneak attacks - i wish i could increase it further. :smallfrown:

Thoughts/tips/review?


PS: Our dm allows called shot rules/improved called shot. Would it be a viable feat late-game to take out enemies legs/knees (lolz), or perform headshots/heartshots combined with death attack/sneak damage?

[grarrrg]

First, I am correct in assuming the sniper and scout archetypes for pathfinder's rogue class can be used together, as they do not change the same things? If not, then dismiss everything below.
You can stack archetypes, this works.


Scout Archetype:...Situational, and I am not sure if bows can be used with a charge. If not, is there a way to gain the use of a bow during a charge?

Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Charge) "After moving, you may make a single melee attack."
No ranged on charged. You will have to wait until Rogue>Scout level 8 for the "move" version.


I believe there is a feat, or trait, that allows you to make two 5 foot steps in a single turn, or up to 10 foot in a single 5 foot step action?

Nothing that I know of in Pathfinder.
There may be something 3rd party, and there's a ton of stuff in 3.5 if you can get it allowed.


The idea is essentially to dip into fighter 4 for weapon specialization, weapon focus, and weapon training for damage, elven bow mastery for added dex to bow damage within 30 feet, and deadly shot for power-attack strikes. I am also considering arcane strike, magical knack (rogue), and taking a talent to gain gravity bow as a spell-like ability, and possibly going into improved unarmed strike, snake style mastery and snap shot.

Too many things going on here.
Trying to boost your Bow damage, trying to gain some Magic ability, and the Unarmed Strike, and the Snap Shot and....

Fighter is fine for getting lots of feats fast. I'd recommend the Weapon Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/weapon-master) archetype, as they get Weapon Training at level 3, making your dip only 4 levels for maximum gain.
Overall though, I'd recommend against much of any Fighter. Having a guaranteed source of Sneak Attack (Scout 8) and 4 more levels of Sneak Progression (+2d6) is likely plenty better than Weapon Spec +2. But if you need the feats, you need the feats.

I'd skip the magic. Using a Standard action for +1 or +2 damage, and only 2/day uses? Eh. Better off buddying up to your Wizard friend, or UMD'ing a Wand yourself.

As far as Improved Unarmed Strike and/or Snap Shot goes. I'd pick _1_ and stick with it.
Improved Unarmed is 1 feat that lets you attack at melee range.
Snap Shot is a whole mess of feats (requirements) that _eventually_ lets you attack at melee range.
If you go the Fighter>Feats route, then Snap Shot is fine, otherwise just grab Improved Unarmed and go.


Lastly, my character is a drow, and poison use is on the table.

Never had much use for poison myself.


Overall build by level 20 - 6 Rogue (Sniper/Scout) / 4 Fighter (Archer) / 10 Assassin. 50 foot range sneak attacks - i wish i could increase it further. :smallfrown:

Rogue 8 is necessary (unless you can get your DM to allow "ranged charges", or get some weird 3rd party stuff approved).
And unless you _really_ want to do Poison, I'd skip Assassin entirely and just take more Rogue.

[Psyren]

Yes, Sniper and Scout mix. You can even get trapfinding (well, the important part of it) back via the Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder) trait.

However, this combination is not quite as uber as it sounds at first. First, I don't know of a way to charge and use a ranged attack in PF, so Scout's first ability is probably going to be wasted. The second is much better - however, Scout only lets you apply SA to your first attack, so Rapid Shot won't really work, and Manyshot explicitly adds precision damage only once so that won't work either. In short, no matter how many times you're able to fire/throw, you'll pretty much only be applying sneak attack once per round unless your foe is truly flat-footed/denied Dex that whole time. Thus, you'll be more competent than most ranged rogues, but your damage will still pale compared to a dedicated TWF melee rogue. (The upside though is that you'll probably be safer since you're at range.) You can squeeze out a little extra damage with the Vital Strike chain if you have the feats to spare, but that's it other than the standard archery stuff like Deadly Aim.

If you're okay with the fact that you'll likely only be landing one SA at a time, a good feat for you is Shot On The Run, which will let you move 10ft., fire at someone, and move some more for maximum mobility. You'll also pick up the feats you need for a Shadowdancer dip by doing this, allowing you to HiPs during combat and become a terrifying sniper.


Finally, poisons - unfortunately they are pretty weak, and moreso for you since you'll likely only be attacking once per round. The benefit to poisoned weapons, especially arrows, is landing a bunch of them at once and forcing multiple saves, such that even the relatively weak DCs of affordable poisons are a threat. But given that the multi-arrow feats are more or less useless for you, you won't get as much mileage out of poison as you might have otherwise. Still, it's not like using them hurts any.

I'd go with sleep poison just for the chance of instantly taking someone nasty out of a fight.

What is Elven Bow Mastery from? I can't seem to find it.


EDIT: Concerning Fighter:

There's really only one reason I would recommend weapon spec., and that's to pick up Point Blank Master later. If you're worried about ending up in melee range, this will help, otherwise if you think you can reliably keep your distance (e.g. you have a solid front line in the party) I would skip it. The bonus feats from fighter will help your archery as well.

EDIT2: As graarg said I would probably skip all the arcane stuff and skip the style feats/IUS. You have few enough feats to spare as it is.

[Jane_Smith]

Snap Shot: Gives me a threat range of 5 feet with a bow, i dont provoke attacks of opportunity with a bow when i make an attack of opportunity with it.

Improved unarmed strike = completely useless to me; but its required for snake style, which allows me to make attacks of opportunity against enemies who's melee attacks miss me.

The basic combo ideal behind this is a high dex/ac, take scout levels so i can move, sneak attack, and kite one or two enemies with ease.

The few melee attacks that do, ever, get landed on me I will likely evade and precede to shoot them in the face.

In addition, unarmed strike is a requirement for deflect arrows and epic deflect arrows, which, as an archer, I feel would be a strong choice combined with some concealment and spell resist (which drow gives), to protect me against most stray shots. So unarmed strikes is useless, its just the feats it builds into I have interest in.

Also, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wind-stance-combat---final might synergy well with this build.


As you can see, its a bit feat heavy, I plan to take the talent for bonus feats 2 times, in addition to at least 2 levels of fighter minimum. Our DM has also allowed 3 flaws - which I have taken in order to gain Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and rapid shot at level 1. And I plan to later invest in bracers of greater archery.

I also forgot to mention that Gravity Bow, Arcane Strike, Mighty Composite Bow II (I have 14 Str in this build), all synergy with Manyshot, allowing the extra arrow to hit for 2d6, +2 from mighty, and +1-5 from arcane strike from level 1-20th. Gravity Bow does not 'just increase the damage by 2'. While I know I cant use it with the scout's movement ability, its still a nice initiation shot with rapid fire to soften an enemy up or outright kill someone.


As to the shadowdancer dip, that does seem juicy.

I am considering more and more just getting rid of assassin for more rogue/fighter levels. I more or less just enjoyed it for the angel of death idea + hide in plain sight.

[Psyren]

It looks like you're investing a lot of feats into what is ultimately a terrible strategy for you (being in melee range.) The whole point of sniper is so that you can sneak attack from further away and the whole point of scout is so that you can sneak attack by staying mobile, so being close to the enemies runs counter to both of those abilities. Again, I would concentrate on Shot On The Run and pinholing foes while you zip/tumble around the battle field.

A single successful grapple, trip, disarm or sunder will ruin your entire build, so being close to people is the one thing you should avoid at all costs with this. I would even prefer Skill Focus Acrobatics or Skill Focus Escape Artist to Snap Shot.

[Jane_Smith]

But there is not that many more feats to enhance my ability to snipe people at close, or far range (that i do not already have by level 6 currently), and unlike some people, I do not care to focus entirely on 1 aspect of archery. Initiating at far range and being prepared for mid/close range to me seems better then just 1 long-range build that has nothing else to offer. Suddenly your fighting assassins, teleporters, other snipers, fast moving targets, and your screwed. Not to mention anyone with half a mind after the first 1-3 rounds of long-range sniping will find cover, run indoors, or simply cast protection from arrows.

Investing some feats to be able to survive/kite in close range and punish melee-types seems like a logical choice, the game does not ALWAYS go the way you want it. Just assuming enemies will stay put for you to snipe will end poorly.

And IF, I toss assassin, I can always go more into rogue/fighter, which would gain me more feats such as Agile Combatant, allowing me to resist trip/disarm/sunder attempts far, far easier. That's 1 feat, and with 30-31 Dex by 20, that is +10 to resist such attempts. And acquiring freedom of movement is abysmally easy - so grapples are a no-issue.

So high ac, high combat defense, amazing reflex saves, evasion/improved evasion, ability to attack anyone who misses me, the ability to threaten with a bow and thus make such attacks at melee attackers, spell resist (racial), and deflect arrows/20% deflection chance vs. ranged seems like it would vastly improve my survivability. Am I wrong to assume this?

[Person_Man]

If you can import 3.5 Feats, Hurling Charge from the Miniatures Handbook lets you make 1 thrown weapon attack and 1 melee attack as part of a Charge. (It's considered very weak by 3.5 standards though, since it explicitly does not work with Pounce).

My general advice is that ranged Sneak Attack tends to be a poor investment. You need to spend 4+ Feats and grab an archetype or other special abilities to make it semi-viable, and even then you're dealing with a variety of restrictions. So I personally wouldn't choose to play one.

If you do go down the road of ranged Sneak Attack, I would suggest TWF + Quickdraw instead. That way you benefit whether you're at a range or in melee. For example I've seen a TWF Ninja with Throw Anything and the Sap Master Feats work quite well.

[Psyren]

But there is not that many more feats to enhance my ability to snipe people at close, or far range (that i do not already have by level 6 currently), and unlike some people, I do not care to focus entirely on 1 aspect of archery. Initiating at far range and being prepared for mid/close range to me seems better then just 1 long-range build that has nothing else to offer. Suddenly your fighting assassins, teleporters, other snipers, fast moving targets, and your screwed. Not to mention anyone with half a mind after the first 1-3 rounds of long-range sniping will find cover, run indoors, or simply cast protection from arrows.

Investing some feats to be able to stay in melee and punish melee-types seems like a logical choice, the game does not ALWAYS go the way you want it. Just assuming enemies will stay put for you to snipe will end poorly.

Which is why I'm also suggesting feats for you to get back to range. It's not about expecting enemies to stand still - it's about making sure that you can get away if they get close. Snap Shot isn't a bad choice (though you are getting starved for feats already just picking up the necessities), but I do think that IUS, Deflect Arrows and the Snake Style chain are. You're talking about 4 feats just to be able to AoO an enemy that misses you in melee once, and you're forced to do so with a punch rather than with your bow no less, so you will need to blow wealth on enhancing your unarmed strike too etc.

You most likely won't be able to get a ring of Freedom of Movement until level 11, though it will certainly be handy then. That still won't protect you from trip, sunder or disarm though, so melee is still a bad place to be.

What are Agile Combatant and Elven Bow Mastery from? I don't see them on the SRD.

[Jane_Smith]

Ah.. I did not notice that snake style 2/3 were specifically for unarmed. Ew... I am now tossing Snap Shot due to lack of ability for ranged aoo's. I had no intention to actually -use- my unarmed strikes, I thought snake style II-III actually let me use any weapon for the attack of opportunity. I was misled by the person who told me about it. q_q Ty for pointing that out.


Also, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat, I accidentally named it incorrectly. I can't seem to find elven bow mastery anymore either, I could have sworn it was from one of the pathfinder setting books/core books. It was a elf-only feat that allowed dex to be applied to bow attacks damage within 30 feet as bonus precision damage. Anything with immunity to crits/sneaks were immune to the damage. I am still trying to find it.


Well, the unarmed issues aside. Snake Style I, and Deflect Arrows, I can both grab from minor rogue talents (via ninja trick) so long as i got IUS to meet the prequisites, and they still work as intended. The ability to block a melee attack and ranged attack once each virtually automatically per round still seems nice.

Currently i am thinking 10 Rogue (Sniper/Scout) / 9 Fighter (Archer) / 1 Shadowdancer (14 Str, 18 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 8 Cha base stats) due to feedback/changes; removing snap shot, arcane strike, snake style 2&3, and adding agile maneuvers around level 9 - so Special bow maneuvers from fighter would be sunder, trip, and disarm and with agile maneuvers they have a nice chance of making them actually work. 10th Level rogue talent I am guessing would be Defensive Roll? I would like to keep magical knack (rogue) and major magic (gravity bow), as I just like the general theme of that. I would have a total of 20 feats to spend by level 20 with this build (due to flaws, ninja trick, etc).

So overall, I can use Staggering Strike + Bow Maneuvers + Improved Trip to trip and stagger someone simultaneously. Would that be worth grabbing? I know enemies get +4 ac due to being prone, so the free attack to apply the sneak damage and staggering are slightly less likely to land, but, my characters attack bonus is so stupidly high right now I do not think it would be a huge deal, especially with hide in plain sight.

[Psyren]

Agile Maneuvers only applies to CMB which unfortunately means it won't do anything for your ability to avoid a trip, sunder or disarm. Your Dex is already added to CMD, but you will need more than that to overcome most monsters that use those tactics, plus if you ever lose your Dex bonus to AC you will lose it to CMD as well and your protections against these attacks will drop significantly.

So again, it's best to just devote your resources to fighting from range and staying at range, rather than trying to "switch-hit."

Fighter 9 is too much fighter. At a minimum you want Rogue 12 for two Greater Talents so that you can pick up Skill Mastery twice (Acrobatics and Stealth) and you will probably want 14 so you can get Stealthy Sniper as well. Combined with your Shadowdancer dip you should have no problem staying out of trouble and pinging people. You'll also want Improved Initiative so you can get off a brutal full-attack on someone who hasn't acted yet (assuming you don't need reposition) as well as Dampen Presence so you can hide from monsters with blindsense/blindsight.

[grarrrg]

Agile Maneuvers only applies to CMB which unfortunately means it won't do anything for your ability to avoid a trip, sunder or disarm.

Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/archer) Fighter can use limited Maneuvers with a Bow. So it is a valid choice.
BUT...

Currently i am thinking 10 Rogue (Sniper/Scout) / 9 Fighter (Archer) / 1 Shadowdancer...and adding agile maneuvers around level 9 - so Special bow maneuvers from fighter would be sunder, trip, and disarm

At levels 3 and 7 you can only choose from Disarm, Feint and Sunder.
Trip doesn't become available until Archer Fighter 11


I would have a total of 20 feats to spend by level 20 with this build (due to flaws, ninja trick, etc).

Keep in mind that you can only select a given Talent/Trick _once_, unless it says otherwise, and while you do get access to Ninja Tricks, you cannot take one that is the same as a Rogue Talent.
So while you can trade some in for bonus feats, there is a strict limit on how many you can get.

Talents:
Combat Trick: any Combat Feat
Finesse Rogue: Weapon Finesse (little/no use to you)
Weapon Training: Weapon Focus
Advanced Talent:
Feat: Gain any feat

Tricks:
Deflect Arrows: Deflect Arrows Feat (duh, need Imp Unarmed)
Snatch Arrows: Snatch Arrows Feat (duh, need Deflect first)
Style Master: Any Style feat that you already meet the Reqs for
Unarmed Combat Training: Imp. Unarmed Strike

I guess you can get pretty close to 20 feats total then.