Spelljammer and Planescape coming back in 5e

[CyberThread]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130701


So here is my proof, as was asked for, dealing with the two settings coming back.

[Corrin Avatan]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130701


So here is my proof, as was asked for, dealing with the two settings coming back.

That's great. If I would play 5e, I'd care. As it is, I don't think 5e is going to be that popular.

[Brookshw]

YES YES YES YES FINALLY!!!!!! Thanks for sharing!

[Drachasor]

Not too excited. Last I saw major class imbalance was still around.

[Doc_Maynot]

I for one am excited for this development. My group playtested Next/5e/whatever you want to call it and loved it, while I myself have always been a fan of how Spelljammer interacts with the other planes.

[CyberThread]

Not too excited. Last I saw major class imbalance was still around.

Will always be an imbalanced. Just the sheer concept of a non magical warrior, vs a someone who can stop time, you will have that. D&D isn't always about balance or fairness.

[Drachasor]

Will always be an imbalanced. Just the sheer concept of a non magical warrior, vs a someone who can stop time, you will have that. D&D isn't always about balance or fairness.

4E, while flawed in many ways, was not imbalanced to remotely the same degree as any previous edition. The Tier system in 3.5 shows that you can have classes be roughly balanced with each other while still using very different mechanics. There's something to be learned from both games.

5E seems to avoid that to its detriment.

So I reject your argument as invalid.

[malonkey1]

Will always be an imbalanced. Just the sheer concept of a non magical warrior, vs a someone who can stop time, you will have that. D&D isn't always about balance or fairness.

I'm actually inclined to agree, to an extent. I believe that a balanced game is in the eyes of the beholder (if you'll pardon the pun), and that as long as everybody is enjoying themselves, relative power levels are less than paramount. That said, having all the players within at least an order of magnitude of each other is generally better than the chicken and Kung-Fu Jesus level power differences you'll often find. A balanced game should be something you strive for, but not so obsessively that you're shoehorning things in where they don't make sense, or excessively standardizing things. If you understand what I'm saying. I didn't get much sleep.

[Psyren]

As I said in the last thread, I only have one question about 5e, and I haven't seen it answered anywhere yet.

"Is it Open Content?"

All else is secondary.

[afroakuma]

I'd be more enthused if they didn't try to rectify 4E canon with pre-4E canon when it came to these settings.

[Snowbluff]

So I reject your argument as invalid.
The statement that balancing is sometimes secondary to fun? It's not even an absolute. Not to mention we have evidence that Wizard's balance damages the value of their system.

As I said in the last thread, I only have one question about 5e, and I haven't seen it answered anywhere yet.

"Is it Open Content?"

All else is secondary.

*shrugs* I haven't been following it. 3.5 is still the most complete edition of DnD I've seen, so I won't really be that interested in 5e until it matures. This is pretty awful, since more material is usually made when the initial run is popular. Some of the mechanics were neat in the playtest, though.

[Eldariel]

I might want to actually look into 5e then, provided the system itself turns out solid. I just hope this doesn't mean they do the Edition Shift Apocalypse for both settings. They're quite interesting without throwing rewriting them ground up, thanks.

[Psyren]

I might want to actually look into 5e then, provided the system itself turns out solid. I just hope this doesn't mean they do the Edition Shift Apocalypse for both settings. They're quite interesting without throwing rewriting them ground up, thanks.

Good luck with that :smalltongue:

[CyberThread]

yeah something big, always happens on an edition shift, it is how they explain why magic and things work different.

this time around it seems they are going with global warming, as a method of how things are doing.

[deuxhero]

Will always be an imbalanced. Just the sheer concept of a non magical warrior, vs a someone who can stop time, you will have that. D&D isn't always about balance or fairness.

I really don't understand why they don't just make it explicit that EVERY PC class is, to some degree, supernatural even if the abilities work in an anti-magic field and a PC should NEVER be constrained by reality. Magic must defeat magic!

Plus it makes the REAL "guy who is really good with a sword" who fights god blessesed warrior, god cursed abominations, insane blind gimps with reversable joints, artifact wielders, living artifacts, golems, ninjas who can jump 2 times their own height with ease and call explosions on demand, ancient god kings ect when he is a unique individual instead of half the heroes in the world.

[Keneth]

I am 101% uninterested in their re-imagining of these settings. I really don't need to see them bastardized with 5e mechanics. They ignored their chance in 3rd edition, and the world has moved on. :smallannoyed:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CyberThread
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.a...d/4ll/20130701

So here is my proof, as was asked for, dealing with the two settings coming back.

This article is well over half a year old. Have there been any other mentions of Planescape and Spelljammer in 5E since then?

[Psyren]

yeah something big, always happens on an edition shift, it is how they explain why magic and things work different.

this time around it seems they are going with global warming, as a method of how things are doing.

Not just that, but it also makes the settings more accessible. For instance, if they erased the Lady of Pain or drastically reduced her power, now new people don't have to worry about knowing who she is, what might tick her off, why she can't/won't leave Sigil etc. etc.

That's an extreme example of course, she's clearly a blunt instrument for the DM the way Ao is.

[NotAnAardvark]

As I said in the last thread, I only have one question about 5e, and I haven't seen it answered anywhere yet.

"Is it Open Content?"

All else is secondary.

My guess is it'll use the same half-closed license 4e does.

WOTC feels like they got burned really badly by the OGL, I doubt they'll use it again.

[CyberThread]

Am not feeling that. I think with how much got put out for the beta test we will see more. Not as much as the srd. But I think we will atleast have core a year or two after release.

[ryu]

Not just that, but it also makes the settings more accessible. For instance, if they erased the Lady of Pain or drastically reduced her power, now new people don't have to worry about knowing who she is, what might tick her off, why she can't/won't leave Sigil etc. etc.

That's an extreme example of course, she's clearly a blunt instrument for the DM the way Ao is.

Actually that's a good point. There's now a non-zero chance that we get stats for the Lady of Pain. This excites me greatly.

[Psyren]

My guess is it'll use the same half-closed license 4e does.

WOTC feels like they got burned really badly by the OGL, I doubt they'll use it again.

That would be immensely foolish of them - Open Gaming is the law of the land now. It's proven to be good for 1st-party publishers, good for 3rd-party publishers, it's good for game designers from entirely different fields (video game, card game etc.) and above all, it's good for players. Locking everything back up behind a paywall again would be a regressive step - like going from Free-to-Play to a subscription model.


Actually that's a good point. There's now a non-zero chance that we get stats for the Lady of Pain. This excites me greatly.

Not to curb your enthusiasm but that's highly unlikely. Aside from the outcry changing her would cause, it would also do away with her purpose as the DM's tac-nuke to rein the players in.

[NotAnAardvark]

That would be immensely foolish of them - Open Gaming is the law of the land now. It's proven to be good for 1st-party publishers, good for 3rd-party publishers, it's good for game designers from entirely different fields (video game, card game etc.) and above all, it's good for players. Locking everything back up behind a paywall again would be a regressive step - like going from Free-to-Play to a subscription model.

Very good, potentially.

I just know some people at Wizards feel like Pathfinder was a huge burn and insult to them and want to avoid being put in the same position again. It's why 4e's SRD is under a more restrictive license (though not entirely restrictive) and 5e's is probably going to be the same.

[Psyren]

You have that backwards - 4e's GSL is the reason Pathfinder was created, not the other way around.

As for it being a 'huge burn' - well, the suits might feel that way, but the designers for both companies regularly pal around and play games together. It's not like they're TP-ing each others' houses or anything.

[afroakuma]

I might want to actually look into 5e then, provided the system itself turns out solid. I just hope this doesn't mean they do the Edition Shift Apocalypse for both settings. They're quite interesting without throwing rewriting them ground up, thanks.

Implications are that they're going to try to merge the planes of 4E with Planescape, which would be a literal Edition Shift Apocalypse. :smalltongue: If they do that, color me completely disinterested.


Not just that, but it also makes the settings more accessible.

Not necessarily. There are better ways to accomplish that than snapping off pieces of the setting only to replace them with brand-new junk later. If you're going to have the same scope with different stuff, no reason not to have the same scope with the same stuff and divide it up accordingly.


For instance, if they erased the Lady of Pain or drastically reduced her power, now new people don't have to worry about knowing who she is, what might tick her off, why she can't/won't leave Sigil etc. etc.

That would be a really stupid idea.


Actually that's a good point. There's now a non-zero chance that we get stats for the Lady of Pain. This excites me greatly.

That would also be a really stupid idea. Statting the Lady of Pain is like statting the strong force. There are better ways to get around them than hacking at them with a sword and the rest of the time you just sort of appreciate the passive role they play. :smalltongue:

People only want to see her stats because she doesn't have any, anyway. That would be an awfully terrible and regressive marketing stunt.

[Psyren]

That would be a really stupid idea.

Like I said, extreme example. But ripping up the whole "Weave" thing like so much old carpet, as they did in 4e, and heavily altering the details via Spellplague did make the setting more accessible. Nobody could walk in wondering things like "if there are bad people, why doesn't Mystra, who is not bad, simply take their magic away or weaken it so much that they are easy prey for the good people?"

I can get that there are folks out there who want their sacred cows to remain sacred and that's okay. The older editions will always be there after all. But very little grows that way and there is little reward without risk.

I actually think turning Spelljammer and Planescape into kind of "hub settings" for their other properties is a good idea. Some people were already playing them that way after all. And heaven knows they are sitting on some pretty lucrative IP they've done nothing with.

[Phelix-Mu]

*sound, salient points*

I feel very much like afroakuma here. I don't mind if they make new stuff; the multiverse model is pretty much king of new stuff. Don't like this Prime? Shift over to another one. They could do the whole thing with soap suds, too, if they felt like it.

On the other hand, it seriously makes me irritated when they make cool new stuff that indirectly burns all of the setting assumptions and devices that made my cool stuff from before no longer workable. Now I have to retcon all that cool new stuff into my world, because, invariably, there is little thought given to how compatible these cosmologies are.

If I don't institute the apocalypse in my campaign in setting x, then I lose easy compatibility to their new materials. I can just ignore the new material, but they don't want that, and really, I'd like to have access to cool stuff without a lot of work on my part.

I's a moronic way to approach creativity, like saying that building on the old classics is good, and proceeding to use gasoline as your primary building material.

[Psyren]

And yet, leaving all the sacred cows totally untouched is equally moronic. You've got to draw a line somewhere and say "we're changing this for reasons." At some point there will be incompatible details, and all we're really haggling over is price.

[ryu]

There's a very good reason I want the Lady of Pain and Ao to have stats though. I have a freaking bingo card to complete as a matter of pride. One of my local DMs promised that if I ever legitimately completed it he'd buy me a sandwich. Reason enough to want the freaking stats already.

[Phelix-Mu]

And yet, leaving all the sacred cows totally untouched is equally moronic. You've got to draw a line somewhere and say "we're changing this for reasons." At some point there will be incompatible details, and all we're really haggling over is price.

Setting premises...like the number of planes...shouldn't change. That's rather more than a sacred cow.

Like I said, plot changes, historical events, death of major npcs...that's fine. But all this apocalypse nonsense trying to justify a totally incompatible shift in the ruleset is just a clunky way to handle things, in my mind. They lose as many people as they attract with that kind of stuff.

I mean, if my stories don't work anymore, and all previous characters can't play in the new edition or its setting, then why am I buying the new books? It just seems like it could be so much cooler if they expanded into new areas instead of insisting on evicting us so they could rehash something.

Of course, I see your point, too. Just don't happen to feel that way, and this is a rather illogical, emotional matter for me.

[NotAnAardvark]

As for it being a 'huge burn' - well, the suits might feel that way, but the designers for both companies regularly pal around and play games together. It's not like they're TP-ing each others' houses or anything.

True, but the suits are the ones that fuss over licensing.

And yet, leaving all the sacred cows totally untouched is equally moronic. You've got to draw a line somewhere and say "we're changing this for reasons." At some point there will be incompatible details, and all we're really haggling over is price.

I'd honestly be surprised if they were particularly eager to change setting things.

4e was them trying to be experimental in nearly ever facet. Hasbro doesn't like it so now we're onto a more conservative 5e. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that mindset slipped into setting design as well and we get a mostly ported planescape and spelljammer and FR shying away from big events.

[Psyren]

There's a very good reason I want the Lady of Pain and Ao to have stats though. I have a freaking bingo card to complete as a matter of pride. One of my local DMs promised that if I ever legitimately completed it he'd buy me a sandwich. Reason enough to want the freaking stats already.

Yeah, we get it, your games are really high-powered.


Setting premises...like the number of planes...shouldn't change. That's rather more than a sacred cow.

Like I said, plot changes, historical events, death of major npcs...that's fine. But all this apocalypse nonsense trying to justify a totally incompatible shift in the ruleset is just a clunky way to handle things, in my mind. They lose as many people as they attract with that kind of stuff.

I mean, if my stories don't work anymore, and all previous characters can't play in the new edition or its setting, then why am I buying the new books? It just seems like it could be so much cooler if they expanded into new areas instead of insisting on evicting us so they could rehash something.

Of course, I see your point, too. Just don't happen to feel that way, and this is a rather illogical, emotional matter for me.

You have a valid point about being evicted. But WotC is in a tough spot right now. They can't do more of the same - Pathfinder ran off with that crowd. For whatever reason, they've decided more 4e won't work either, and if anybody would know that for sure it's them. So change is the only answer. And if you're going to change it, attrition among existing fans is inevitable, so the only hope is to bring in new ones to replace (and hopefully exceed) them. And that... means burgers.

[Phelix-Mu]

You have a valid point about being evicted. But WotC is in a tough spot right now. They can't do more of the same - Pathfinder ran off with that crowd. For whatever reason, they've decided more 4e won't work either, and if anybody would know that for sure it's them. So change is the only answer. And if you're going to change it, attrition among existing fans is inevitable, so the only hope is to bring in new ones to replace (and hopefully exceed) them. And that... means burgers.

Right, and it's exactly this very sensible, business-oriented mentality that has convinced me that there is almost no way to justify me paying for their books. I might gain short-term pleasure out of the investment, but in the long run, I would realize that I am paying for dreams that, like Old Yeller, are soon going to get sent upstate, just in time for the roll-out of 6e.

I don't want my dreams sent upstate. If that means I don't get shiny book, or need to borrow/beg/steal books from my friends or loan them from libraries for a looksee to quench my curiosity, then so be it. No more dollars for WotC.

[ryu]

Yeah, we get it, your games are really high-powered.



You have a valid point about being evicted. But WotC is in a tough spot right now. They can't do more of the same - Pathfinder ran off with that crowd. For whatever reason, they've decided more 4e won't work either, and if anybody would know that for sure it's them. So change is the only answer. And if you're going to change it, attrition among existing fans is inevitable, so the only hope is to bring in new ones to replace (and hopefully exceed) them. And that... means burgers.

It's not just about high power. It's about being scarily thorough and detail oriented. Do you have any idea how painstaking you have to be when the conditions explicitly state that you must personally witness and cause the death as it's happening to the named NPC? How about when the targets are fully every official named NPC released that was relevant D&D material? Including stuff from authorized novels?

[Drachasor]

You have a valid point about being evicted. But WotC is in a tough spot right now. They can't do more of the same - Pathfinder ran off with that crowd. For whatever reason, they've decided more 4e won't work either, and if anybody would know that for sure it's them. So change is the only answer. And if you're going to change it, attrition among existing fans is inevitable, so the only hope is to bring in new ones to replace (and hopefully exceed) them. And that... means burgers.

I honestly have little doubt that if they started printing 3.5 material or an updated version, then they'd get a lot of customers. They'd get people who still play 3.5, they'd get some 4E players, and they'd get a good portion of the PF crowd. They'd probably have to hire back some talent they've let go in the intervening years, however.

I believe they decided 4E wasn't working because sales dropped too much and were never as high as they wanted. Seems like a sensible enough reason.

Unfortunately, it seems like they don't have enough talent for a good 5E product. At least from what I've seen. Though I haven't really looked at it closely to compare it to 3.X -- I just have seen enough to know it won't be a big step forward which is a disappointment.

[Phelix-Mu]

Though I haven't really looked at it closely to compare it to 3.X -- I just have seen enough to know it won't be a big step forward which is a disappointment.

I'd be fairly happy with a non-step backward, frankly. Not that I'd buy books either way, but the franchise is like one of my children. I take no pleasure in watching it languish in the hands of...well, let's not be crude.:smallwink:

[Drachasor]

I'd be fairly happy with a non-step backward, frankly. Not that I'd buy books either way, but the franchise is like one of my children. I take no pleasure in watching it languish in the hands of...well, let's not be crude.:smallwink:

From what I saw it seemed very 3.0/3.5 Core in terms of sensibilities overall. Compared to near the end of 3.5 when I think we saw the best ideas on the D&D front overall.

Though I think there were a number of good aspects about 4E that should have been shamelessly stolen. Too many people look at 4E and just dismiss the whole thing by association, which is sad.

But yeah, 5E doesn't look like it is taking the best of what has come before. Maybe more like the average or least common denominator. This isn't horrific in an absolute sense, but it is also far from compelling. IMHO.

[Phelix-Mu]

4e gets no love from me. I am sure some of it was decent; I largely am ignorant of the specifics. For the first decade or so of my gaming experience, TSR ran a rather ragtag ship, but it was largely up to me if I wanted to buy the new thing and integrate it.

3e came out, and, knowing only 2e, I expected the same thing. Was sorely mistaken.

Now, I know running things into the ground like TSR did wasn't sustainable either, and that business expediency and BLAH BLAH BLAH. To me, money is secondary. I will pony up top dollar for good stuff, but I can smell the red herring and the moneygrubbing. Corporate shenanigans are pretty much a total turnoff to my creative side, and make me feel like engaging in social revolution, not considerate, regular patronage of their wares.

Like I mentioned before, this whole issue is soundly outside my logical demesne; here, I am a careful and doting parent, out to protect my pencil-scratched progeny and its future. So, if I'm overly emotional, well, it doesn't bother me.:smallamused:

[afroakuma]

They can't do more of the same - Pathfinder ran off with that crowd.

They can, however, try doing more of what they stopped doing to try something different. That's sort of the whole point of resurrecting this IP; Pathfinder doesn't have it, and while I'm sure its IP is admirable or what have you, this stuff had fans of this specific material.


So change is the only answer. And if you're going to change it, attrition among existing fans is inevitable, so the only hope is to bring in new ones to replace (and hopefully exceed) them. And that... means burgers.

Firstly, don't just reduce the issue to "sacred cows." I like a good burger as much as the next guy. Where things worry me is when they raze the sacred cow pasture, set up a McBurger's, and then tell me it's only serving chicken nuggets. Where's the beef?

There are a lot of things that I'm okay with seeing changed, and there are more still that I'd be open-minded about in both settings. I'm sure there are things I'm not even aware of being open-minded on that I'd find out are pretty flexible for me depending on how it's being done. But if you're selling McBurgers and you've killed all the sacred cows to put it up, I would like some beef. I would like to know that the selling points are fundamentally in sync, that familiarity with the material will make it easy to adapt, and that I'll see commitment from the company to rolling things forward. When they did the Spellplague, they left some annoying elements in play that needn't have been there, stripped out things I liked and wanted to use for a bunch of new "aren't-we-clever" stuff that I felt was the tabletop game equivalent of a backdoor pilot, and wouldn't even commit to it across the brand. First piece of fiction I picked up following the decision had a prologue that boiled down to "So... WotC says I have to write this because they nuked the setting. And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming!"

Planescape? Make the Lady of Pain vanish. Straight-up. Hint at her presence behind the scenes, or make it a question of the setting. Get the factions' noses in the air once more. Quell the Blood War, if you like, and start painting the strokes of a new conflict to get people interested. Hardly what I'd call sacred cow worship here. This is my favorite setting, and I'm still open to seeing it transform as long as it's done with respect to what the setting is.

Spelljammer? Crack open an interplanetary war, or make groundling docks or lunar ports a big part of the action. Why not? Lots of good stories involve time off the ship. Just remember that there is a ship, that it's a dangerous place to be, that air is valuable and that the creatures of wildspace veer a little on the sillier side of the design spectrum and you're on the right track. Mind flayers, neogi, beholder abominations, what's not to like? It's a great setting that got insufficient love way back when, and it's one of the easier ones to update while being true to its roots.

I'm always up for a burger - I just need beef.

[Psyren]

Planescape? Make the Lady of Pain vanish. Straight-up.

This is exactly what I suggested, and you said it was a "really stupid idea." Consistency? :smallconfused:



I'm always up for a burger - I just need beef.

I assume by this you're saying that, if they bother slaying the cows, there should be something to show for it... is that right?

[Eldan]

I think my opinions on Sacred Cows can be summed up quite easily.

You can slaughter them under two conditions. If a) you give me a new and better sacred animal to worship and b) you give me a good reason why the cow had to go. Don't slaughter a sacred cow because it is holy and bovine. Slaughter it because it had BSE, had fallen from grace and your sacred lion is way cooler.


So, they said Planescape is coming back. How nice. That means absolutely nothing. Third edition had the Manual of the Planes, too, and 4E mentioned Sigil a few times. I'll recognize this as a good thing as soon as I see a book with good, more or less compatible fluff.

Making fluff that's compatible to Planescape is both very hard and quite easy. The Planes aren't necessary. Or Sigil. They are nice to have (see secret cows, above), but you can run a game that is essentially Planescape almost anywhere. What you need to get right is the tone. Wonder and cynicism, otherworldliness and mundanity, faith and futility and belief moving mountains.

[CyberThread]

Forgotten realms fans were pissed about, how core rules of 4e royally screwed up the setting, as they forced it on FR setting, to match the core outlook. I mean how do you have a god of sin (domain) when you have murders , evils and all sort of other gods. Sin is just to vague , and who are you sinning against?


An the massive killing off of gods to simplify the setting, also made folks highly upset, on the narrative effects it had, for both story telling, and those that buy the books to read.

So you will see that which made Forgotten realms complex as far as gods for everything including the tubberware in your cab-nit return.

[Brookshw]

Honestly I never got much into 4e and have no idea what they did with the planes, let alone any vestiges of planescape that may have lingered. Feel free to fill in the gaps for me :smallbiggrin:. Was the treatment that substantially different from the previous editions? 3rd at least gave a solid nod to the 2e material. If they completely decoupled 5e from 2nd/3rd I'd be very tentative to consider it unless they were able to maintain the feel at a minimum. Considering they're operating on a scale of multiple infinites there just doesn't seem to be any reason to really do much damage the the previous material, plenty of room to expand things.

Major events such as ending the blood war, say, capping the abyss, or an alliance between the evil forces, the Rilmani siding with the forces of good. Bring back the Draeden compant and give it a larger role. Plenty of interesting ways to develop the setting without throwing the previous material in the wood chipper. There's so much room to grow it I can't see any substantial reason to do anything but.

[Eldan]

Honestly I never got much into 4e and have no idea what they did with the planes, let alone any vestiges of planescape that may have lingered. Feel free to fill in the gaps for me

Short version:

1. Step: Marketing that actively insulted planescape and it's players. The general tone was: "The Planes were a bad setting. No one ever used them, they weren't fun, they need to change because they didn't work. Too hostile, too complicated and generally boring."

2. Step: New planes. Much simpler ones. Basically, you get the Astral Sea and the Elemental Plane. At the heart of the elemental plane is the Abyss, while swimming in the Astral Sea you have smaller domains like heaven and hell. Parallel to the prime you also have the shadow and spirit worlds. Might have worked, really, as a general layout.

3. Step: recklessly plunder Planescape for names. Even admitting it. "Hey, Eladrin is a cool name! Let's call our high elves that." "I like Archons, that's our new name for elementals. What do you mean it means "ruler" in Greek and they don't rule anything? We don't care!" "Lawful Evil? Evil things can't be lawful! Devils are just "evil" now and the "'loths" are now demons too!"

4. Winking at old edition fans knowingly. "See? It's all here! Succubi are devils now, because demons have to be violent, but they still exist! Sure [insert name of god here] has different domains and a new origin and symbol now, but he's still around! All the stuff you love still exists!"

[Drachasor]

4e gets no love from me. I am sure some of it was decent; I largely am ignorant of the specifics. For the first decade or so of my gaming experience, TSR ran a rather ragtag ship, but it was largely up to me if I wanted to buy the new thing and integrate it.

Generally I have no love for 4E setting. Though I don't dislike messing around with coexistent planes. I do like Dragonborn as a race.

I think 4E had the following things that should be stolen:
Healing Surges: This provides a way for healing to be done between combat, while still having natural limits. Overall it is a better system than what we had seen before. You can use up your reserves and need to rest. This is better than relying on one person for healing (though healers let you use surges in combat easier), and it is better than stacks of Wands of CLW.

Racial Abilities: It was nice that each race had their own special ability. It made them more unique. Sidenote: I generally approve of just having bonuses and removing ability score penalties.

More shared basic mechanics: For instance, everyone uses BAB and uses it in a similar way. So everyone has the same progression. It's just that a Fighter will be better using it with swords, and a wizard uses it with magic. Overall pretty nice. Overall this makes balance with regards to leveling a lot smoother.

Very nice rules for arbitrating novel ideas: Page 42 of the DMG is really great. It really helps a DM handle something unexpected in clever.

But 4E also had even bigger problems....

Too many shared mechanics, so classes from a certain perspective all felt very similar (even if they played differently. 3E showed you can have balanced with a wider variety of mechanics*.

The PHB was written like a straight-jacket, so players felt they could only do things they had explicit permission to do.

Out of combat wasn't well developed, which made the world feel pretty flat.

They had a cool idea with utility powers, then screwed it up by making a lot of them very useful in combat (or be dailies...or both).

Power progression was pretty unnatural, since you'd essentially forget how to do things you could do before -- sure that can happen to Sorcerers in 3.X, but stuff like that is more of an exception than something everyone definitely experiences.

Powers were about making money. Related to the above. The only reason for now allowing custom powers I see is that they wanted to sell you books full of new powers. They most definitely DID have a system for designing and balancing powers (which did get tweaked, but generally was pretty good).

Some other stuff too. That said, I'm disappointed by how little they are steal some of the good ideas from 4E. As well as failing to learn the lessens WotC generally seemed to have picked up by the end of 3E.

*3E itself wasn't balanced, but you can easily pick out a subset of classes with wildly different mechanics that were balanced.

[Brookshw]

Stuff nightmares are made of.
!"

okay......., well, glad I went with my instinct after ruining a core mini and then dropped it. That 5e article mentioned things like a deep part to the fire plane and I thought, okay, that's not a big deal, I can work with that. What you just described though.....just no. Gotta go with no.

[DeltaEmil]

All that discussion about 5e would be better put into the 5e-discussion thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332406&page=15).

[Brookshw]

All that discussion about 5e would be better put into the 5e-discussion thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332406&page=15).

Bah! How they'll treat the planes deserves its own thread :smalltongue: this is serious!

[Ravens_cry]

Damn, I'd almost want to play 5e if it meant flying the phlogiston flow.

[afroakuma]

This is exactly what I suggested

No, you suggested either removing her completely or weakening her, with the intent that new players wouldn't need to know who or what she is as part of learning the setting. That is what you said.


For instance, if they erased the Lady of Pain or drastically reduced her power, now new people don't have to worry about knowing who she is, what might tick her off, why she can't/won't leave Sigil etc. etc.

What I said was "make her vanish," i.e. make that vanishing (and the Lady herself, insofar as her absence is noteworthy) a component of the setting. Make it a driving question, or hint that she's still operating behind the scenes and ready to make a most terrible reappearance should her strange laws be transgressed. In short, new people still know her, while old fans get a new mystery to lure them back in.

[Psyren]

No, you suggested either removing her completely or weakening her, with the intent that new players wouldn't need to know who or what she is as part of learning the setting. That is what you said.



What I said was "make her vanish," i.e. make that vanishing (and the Lady herself, insofar as her absence is noteworthy) a component of the setting. Make it a driving question, or hint that she's still operating behind the scenes and ready to make a most terrible reappearance should her strange laws be transgressed. In short, new people still know her, while old fans get a new mystery to lure them back in.

Then you misunderstood me, because I wasn't saying "make it like she never existed." They didn't do that with Mystra, why would they do it here?

She'd be a mystery of the setting like you said, but the key is that you don't have to know or care who she is, at least not right away. You can simply get into the world, and worry about all that later once you're invested.

It's like the Prophecy in Eberron or Aroden's death in Golarion. Yes, they are setting mysteries, but they're nothing you have to even think about until very late levels. Whereas with the Lady of Pain around like she is now, she's something you have to be aware of at all levels. It's not like the Prophecy or Aroden can maze your character.

[Brookshw]

with the Lady of Pain around like she is now, she's something you have to be aware of at all levels. It's not like the Prophecy or Aroden can maze your character.

Not really, she's a background piece of narrative that creates an in setting justification of how sigil retains its neutrality. Interacting with her is exceptionally rare. Don't kill a dabus, don't make a fuss pushing a particular belief, and she may as well be a tree in the background. And if you do want to go pushing a belief or causing a major ruckus just do it somewhere else, you do have multiple infinitesimal after all. You can still do almost anything in sigil. You're far more restricted in what you could do for example in a gods divine realm.

[Darrin]

I have a simple rule:

Give me the official errata for Tome of Battle, and I will start buying WotC products again.

[Eldan]

It's like the Prophecy in Eberron or Aroden's death in Golarion. Yes, they are setting mysteries, but they're nothing you have to even think about until very late levels. Whereas with the Lady of Pain around like she is now, she's something you have to be aware of at all levels. It's not like the Prophecy or Aroden can maze your character.

Heck no. The Lady is there to be never, ever involved in an active game. Bringing down the Lady on your players is like saying "Rock Falls". There's extremely few plots that can survive it (I can think of one "We need to get into a Maze for [weird reason]." Involving the Lady means the game is dead and the group members are no longer trusting each other.

The Lady is there to make the setting possible. She's the reason why the fiends haven't conquered Sigil, the multiverse's most prime piece of real estate.

She's like the sun, or gravity. "Why is there warmth and light and we aren't all frozen to death?" "Because of the sun." "Why do things fall down and we can walk on the ground?" "Gravity." "Why isn't planar travel nearly impossible and why isn't a Hezrou eating my liver right now?" "The Lady of Pain."

If your players try to fight gravity, something has either gone horribly wrong /(and they are probably stupid) or you have a plot that is very, very weird and unique. Same with the Lady.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Darrin
Give me the official errata for Tome of Battle, and I will start buying WotC products again.

What exactly was the deal with that, anyway? I gather the only copy of the file was lost or something?


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
But all this apocalypse nonsense trying to justify a totally incompatible shift in the ruleset is just a clunky way to handle things, in my mind. They lose as many people as they attract with that kind of stuff.

This was one of the major non-mechanical reasons I was completely turned off by 4E. They seemed to have had way too much fun going around destroying everything in the Forgotten Realms, for no especially good reason apart from reality having a really bad itch.

The 3.0 Realms were a familiar, comfortable place for me, and while I hardly felt any details were "sacred," I strongly disliked the wanton wreaking of havoc throughout a carefully developed setting. It felt too much like little kids gleefully kicking down an elaborate sand castle at the beach. It felt childish and cheap.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
It just seems like it could be so much cooler if they expanded into new areas instead of insisting on evicting us so they could rehash something.

Yes, and their approach was lazy. Much simpler to break everything, and give a sketchy overview of the rubble and dust, than to advance the setting logically and consistently according to the dynamics they'd already established. That would take work and time, two things WotC doesn't want to invest in a setting anymore. Careful consideration just isn't their M.O.


Originally Posted by Drachasor
I honestly have little doubt that if they started printing 3.5 material or an updated version, then they'd get a lot of customers.

They'd get interest, certainly, but a lot of people feel genuinely burned by 4E, and many of them have permanently transferred their loyalties to Pathfinder.

I'd absolutely look at new 3.5 material from WotC...but buy it? Now that Pathfinder is such a presence? Honestly not likely. I think there are enough people who feel the same, and who've expressed themselves on this point, that WotC reckons there's not enough market to revive a lapsed system in the face of a thriving competitive presence.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
No more dollars for WotC.

Word, yo.

:smallamused:

[Psyren]

Heck no. The Lady is there to be never, ever involved in an active game. Bringing down the Lady on your players is like saying "Rock Falls". There's extremely few plots that can survive it (I can think of one "We need to get into a Maze for [weird reason]." Involving the Lady means the game is dead and the group members are no longer trusting each other.

The Lady is there to make the setting possible. She's the reason why the fiends haven't conquered Sigil, the multiverse's most prime piece of real estate.

She's like the sun, or gravity. "Why is there warmth and light and we aren't all frozen to death?" "Because of the sun." "Why do things fall down and we can walk on the ground?" "Gravity." "Why isn't planar travel nearly impossible and why isn't a Hezrou eating my liver right now?" "The Lady of Pain."

If your players try to fight gravity, something has either gone horribly wrong /(and they are probably stupid) or you have a plot that is very, very weird and unique. Same with the Lady.

You could just as easily say they haven't conquered Sigil because of the Worldstone, or the Compact, or something special about the city itself that keeps it neutral. You don't need a big stick arbiter character hovering over everything. And better still, you can have the PCs come into play just as some force is about to take the city - fiends or angels alike - and be tasked with maintaining it as the axis of reality. A plot you then don't have to justify by saying "Oh, and the Lady can't handle it because... uh... she's off organizing her rock collection! Yeah, that's it."

Anyway, that's just me. We don't even know what changes, if any, are planned, so this is all speculation anyway.

[afroakuma]

the key is that you don't have to know or care who she is, at least not right away. You can simply get into the world, and worry about all that later once you're invested.

That was the case with the original Planescape setting as well. She was set dressing, and set dressing that you wouldn't run into unless you were running one of three specific modules, only two of which were in the line and one of which was the big "edition shift apocalypse" adventure for the setting as well as the formal end of the line. For most of the setting, most of the adventures, and by intent and design most of the games, players' encounters with the Lady of Pain were seeing the setting logo.

[Psyren]

That was the case with the original Planescape setting as well. She was set dressing, and set dressing that you wouldn't run into unless you were running one of three specific modules, only two of which were in the line and one of which was the big "edition shift apocalypse" adventure for the setting as well as the formal end of the line. For most of the setting, most of the adventures, and by intent and design most of the games, players' encounters with the Lady of Pain were seeing the setting logo.

The problem with her being set dressing is that she does restrict certain activities. It might be hard to get her attention, but it's not impossible, and so there are some things you just can't do as listed by Brookshw. Being fettered before you even start can be a turnoff to new players.

Compare to actual set dressing, like the Prophecy. You can work to decipher it, work to prevent others from deciphering it, try to twist it to your own ends, or ignore it entirely - it won't care. The various factions who are doing these 4 things might care, but the prophecy itself won't.

This is why Eldan's comparison to the sun doesn't really work. If you found a way to ignore the sun or even destroy it, the sun wouldn't be able to stop you or even try; it's just there. The same with gravity. If you found a way to destroy or ignore the Lady though, it raises all sorts of questions and implications.

Instead, it would be the folks that want the sun or want gravity to stick around that would have to get together and stop you - there's a lot more room for player agency there, and a lot more need for heroes.

[afroakuma]

The problem with her being set dressing is that she does restrict certain activities.

If the DM wants her to. If he/she doesn't, that doesn't happen. She's actually less intrusive than, say, a king, because it's pretty guaranteed that if you threaten the life of the king there will be repercussions. The Lady's inclined to ignore people as a general rule and she's almost never around. The only activity the Lady really restricts for a party starting out in the setting is going and confronting the Lady, because she doesn't need to be anywhere you can find her.

There is, quite simply, nothing that a party can do to cross a line if she's uninterested in what's going on. You don't need to know the rules of the Lady unless the DM wants to run an adventure in which you've broken one, just like you don't need to know about the Draconic Prophecy unless the DM decides it's become relevant.

[Psyren]

Well, obviously the DM can say she just doesn't get involved no matter what the players or BBEG get up to, but depending on the specific activities going on that can strain suspension of disbelief.

[Snowbluff]

Well, obviously the DM can say she just doesn't get involved no matter what the players or BBEG get up to, but depending on the specific activities going on that can strain suspension of disbelief.
Wut.

She's the master of her realm. Not even gods could mess with her, save one instance. Suspension of disbelief holds little ground against a creature that is effectively invincible in a fantasy setting, and therefore has no reason to care about your insignificant adventure. You'd really have to screw things up, just like with a king, and that leads to a game over.

[afroakuma]

Returning to the topic matter, then.

What I worry about is that 4E came in with replacement canon, and 5E looks to be trying to rectify wholesale replacement with what came before. Spelljammer at least is a lot more promising, since it's 1) really hard to get wrong and 2) basically unscathed from either the disengaged 3.5 "update" or 4E generally. I think it's the kind of thing that will fill the role they're looking to much more easily.

Planescape I think is going to look like a scraped-together mess. :smallconfused:

As for the Forgotten Realms, I don't know if it will even be recognizable if they nuke it again. Almost makes me want to do my own thing for the setting.

[Psyren]

That's the problem. Gods can't threaten her - what can? If you try you're hosed. It's a restriction is all I'm saying. One less story you can tell.

Kings can be threatened, and you don't even need a whole lot of power to do it. One sneaky guy with a knife or shifty courtier can take out a king. Hell, bad or poisoned egg salad could take out a king. And if the assassin doesn't care about making it out alive, it's even easier.

[Snowbluff]

That's the problem. Gods can't threaten her - what can? If you try you're hosed. It's a restriction is all I'm saying. One less story you can tell.

Kings can be threatened, and you don't even need a whole lot of power to do it. One sneaky guy with a knife or shifty courtier can take out a king. Hell, bad or poisoned egg salad could take out a king. And if the assassin doesn't care about making it out alive, it's even easier.
If it's ever that easy, the king would live very long, regardless of how the party acts. Unless you're making a king that is supposed to die, he would presumably be a figure of authority, much like the Lady of Pain. Not that the Lady really serves that role. She's an atmospheric piece, and is used to add an air of mystery and protect the contents of Sigil from outside interference.

Food poisoning has a slim chance of killing anything in DnD, with how poisons and disease work.

[Psyren]

Food poisoning has a slim chance of killing anything in DnD, with how poisons and disease work.

On that much we can agree :smalltongue:

(Now I'm wondering how poison will work in 5e. How did it work in 4e?)

[afroakuma]

So assuming they stick to the plan and revive both settings for 5E, what do you hope to see? I've offered some suggestions of changes they could run with, but nothing I'd particularly look forward to.

Anyone have any opinions?

[Snowbluff]

On that much we can agree :smalltongue:

(Now I'm wondering how poison will work in 5e. How did it work in 4e?)
XD

Actually poison was an item we could buy. I knew what it did, but I was a mounted halberd paladin, so I didn't use it. I think it might have just done a bit of extra damage.

[Eldan]

Well, obviously the DM can say she just doesn't get involved no matter what the players or BBEG get up to, but depending on the specific activities going on that can strain suspension of disbelief.

She's certainly less interventionist than most gods, given what I've seen from some settings, say FR.

As for interrupting certain activities, compare her to a city watch, a common staple of many D&D settings. She restricts three things: worship of Her as a god, mess with the Dabus, bring a god into the city. Compare with a city watch: don't steal, don't murder, don't smuggle, don't insult the king... they have a much longer list of crimes.

And the thing is:

Gods can't threaten her - what can?

Is a major question in the setting. We don't know if the gods can threaten her. Perhaps they have never tried hard enough. Maybe their attempts cancel each other out. Perhaps she is hiding from them in Sigil. Maybe something else can mess with her. There's a lot of fan theories on that. Maybe worship would kill her or evict her from the city, that's why she's that hard on it. Maybe unbalancing the city's alignment or philosophy would take down the city. Maybe she has some really silly weakness no one has found yet.

She's a mystery. That's the point.

[squiggit]

You guys make me kinda glad I never actually read much of the 4e fluff when I was playing it.


They'd get interest, certainly, but a lot of people feel genuinely burned by 4E, and many of them have permanently transferred their loyalties to Pathfinder.
And in turn the people who weren't burned by 4e seem burned by 5e or thinking "Why play this over pathfinder?"


Spelljammer at least is a lot more promising, since it's 1) really hard to get wrong
Watch them gut illithids and turn it dark and gritty.

[Psyren]

Eh, If it requires gods "trying really hard" to take you down, or multiple gods working together, you might as well be unassailable. Those are magnitudes of force that are simply beyond most player comprehension or immersion.


XD

Actually poison was an item we could buy. I knew what it did, but I was a mounted halberd paladin, so I didn't use it. I think it might have just done a bit of extra damage.

Are you talking 4e or the 5e playtest here?

[Zaydos]

Planescape: The key to Planescape is, and has always been, fluff. The metaplot in late 2e with the Factions being destroyed upset me, and the changes in 3.X to planes as well (magic is easy, 2nd level spells automatically negate their threats). Honestly as long as the writer is a fan of Planescape and cares, as opposed to the 3.0 Manual of the Planes where they seemed to actively hate it, I think it'll be fine. I do hope to see Elemental Planes that border each other again, and the idea of them having shallow parts that border the Prime could be good. The key here is tone, and depending upon how well they do that I might pick up some Planescape books. Ultimately, though, Planescape is easily adapted to the system of choice because it's primarily fluff and I'm unlikely to get into the system for updated Planescape.

Spelljammer: Multiple solar systems and a bit of a silly tone. I hope they keep Crystal Spheres and the Flow, but they are not necessary. I want to see a chapter on ships with rules for ship to ship combat. An emphasis on exploration and on how there is no set setting for Spelljammer (give a core crystal sphere, but cast it as just a sample). If they do Spelljammer well that'll be a major selling point to me, and assuming the system is at least workable I'll probably buy in for the core books and the Spelljammer ones at least even if just to compare and contrast and try to make 3.X Spelljammer rules I am satisfied with.

[Snowbluff]

comprehension PRECISELY! That's why it's great.



Are you talking 4e or the 5e playtest here?

5e. Also, some monsters had poisons that did other things.

[Brookshw]

So assuming they stick to the plan and revive both settings for 5E, what do you hope to see? I've offered some suggestions of changes they could run with, but nothing I'd particularly look forward to.

Anyone have any opinions?

More layer shifts, maybe the spawning stone being destroyed, more on forge elders, a nupperibo matures, raises forces and there's civil war in the hells leaving the demons to run amuk. The loths finish the third tower. Return of the rilmani's predecessors (forget the name), more on the draeden contract. More of the unhuman war. I'm done with orcus, kill him off and make it stick.

[afroakuma]

Honestly as long as the writer is a fan of Planescape and cares

I haven't gotten a phone call yet. :smallwink:


More layer shifts

Would there be much of a point to that? Where would you want to see them?


maybe the spawning stone being destroyed, more on forge elders

Pretty much any more focus on Law and Chaos would be nice, yeah.


a nupperibo matures

I don't trust them with ancient baatorians right now. :smalltongue:


The loths finish the third tower.

I'd take that.


Return of the rilmani's predecessors (forget the name)

The kamerel? Why? They weren't all that interesting when they were first introduced. I think I'd rather see more effort on the rilmani.


more on the draeden contract.

Can basically guarantee that won't happen.

[(Un)Inspired]

On that much we can agree :smalltongue:

(Now I'm wondering how poison will work in 5e. How did it work in 4e?)

If I recall correctly 4e handled poison by having it be an energy type in the vein of fire or electricity. So some magic spells did poison type damage as did certain dragon breath weapons.

I believe certain rogue powers did poison damage and were fluffed as the rogue coating his weapon in poison just before he struck.

I don't recall any poisons you could buy or craft and then apply to weapons or to someone's hamburger but i might be mistaken.

[Eldan]

Watch them gut illithids and turn it dark and gritty.

Wouldn't Illithids be one of the few things in Spelljammer you wouldn't need to gut to make it dark and gritty?


I haven't gotten a phone call yet

And Shemeshka works for Pathfinder. Is Rip van Wormer available?

[afroakuma]

Wouldn't Illithids be one of the few things in Spelljammer you wouldn't need to gut to make it dark and gritty?

Pretty much.


And Shemeshka works for Pathfinder. Is Rip van Wormer available?

That's right! I forgot Shemmy went pro. Go him! :smallbiggrin:

I don't know Rip, sadly, but I don't think he ever did anything official, unlike Shemmy who did quite a bit for Dragon in the back end of 3.5

[Person_Man]

Spelljammer was always my favorite setting. I look forward to digging up my 2nd edition Giff Wizard, Space Captain Hippocrates Potamous, and trying to convert it to 5E.


As I said in the last thread, I only have one question about 5e, and I haven't seen it answered anywhere yet.

"Is it Open Content?"

All else is secondary.

Relevant article is relevant: Will WOTC release an Open Game License for 5th Edition Dungeons & Dragons? (http://www.examiner.com/article/will-wotc-release-an-open-game-license-for-5th-edition-dungeons-dragons)

Short version: Mike Mearls wants one, and Chris Dias (small 3rd party publisher) believes there will be one.

But I'm guessing the Hasbro lawyers will add in so many caveats that it's useless.

[Psyren]

Relevant article is relevant: Will WOTC release an Open Game License for 5th Edition Dungeons & Dragons? (http://www.examiner.com/article/will-wotc-release-an-open-game-license-for-5th-edition-dungeons-dragons)

Short version: Mike Mearls wants one, and Chris Dias (small 3rd party publisher) believes there will be one.

But I'm guessing the Hasbro lawyers will add in so many caveats that it's useless.

*crosses fingers*

[Clistenes]

I like the Great Wheel cosmology for its elegant simplicity, and I am a bit afraid of the loss of said elegance that could come from trying to stuff too many foreign elements. Who knows, maybe the Feywild and Elemental Chaos will mix well, but I hope they don't ruin the setting.

As for the fluff, they should reset to the old Planescape setting, with the old Factions managing Sigil.

I would rather have the Factions not wielding too much influence outside of Sigil; I never liked how the mortal planars from Sigils rivalled the influence of Celestials and Fiends. In the games I played the Factions tended to be self-deluded mortals that exaggerated their own importance in the great scheme of things: They had great influence over planar mortals, but their ability to influence events outside Sigil was very small.

[Psyren]

The Giant's drawing of the Feywild - and Vaarsuvius' reaction - is still one of the funniest things I've ever read :smallbiggrin:

[Brookshw]

The Giant's drawing of the Feywild - and Vaarsuvius' reaction - is still one of the funniest things I've ever read :smallbiggrin:

Don't suppose there's a link for that by any chance?

[Psyren]

Don't suppose there's a link for that by any chance?

It's in Snips, Snails & Dragon Tales - Invaders from the 4th Dimension

[Brookshw]

I haven't gotten a phone call yet. :smallwink: And we thought WoTC knew what it was doing since......when?




Would there be much of a point to that? Where would you want to see them?

Eh, shake things up a bit and let the universe have evolved some or provide new plot hooks. Arcadia trying to reclaim it's lost layer, maybe a layer of hell drifting over to hades, one of carceri's prison sphere's (however you want to term them) drifting free. Things that make for good fodder. hmm, gonna keep that carceri one for later actually.


I don't trust them with ancient baatorians right now. :smalltongue: Considering what Eldan said regarding the atrocity of 4e I don't know if I trust them with the planes period :smalltongue:




I'd take that. Care to speculate in your thread regarding what's up with it?




The kamerel? Why? They weren't all that interesting when they were first introduced. I think I'd rather see more effort on the rilmani. I'd love to see the rilmani developed more (and a less silly looking appearance, honestly, they look like practically featureless blobs of wax molded into a human appearance. We can do better....) Regardless seeing the caramel return would be sweet. Begs questions such as "why", "why now", "what do they want"? Useful hooks and a new mystery for a race that's been hiding out on the mirrors for a bit.




Can basically guarantee that won't happen. Oh I'm sure it won't happen, still keeping it on the wish list regardless.

Also more development in the upper planes and for the Hebdomad. The lower planes got plenty of content in 3.0/3.5, let's see the other's get some love.


That's right! I forgot Shemmy went pro. Go him!

And got himself married so double good! Soon the ****ter clatter and snarls of little loths perhaps?

You still haven't read his story hours on EN world I take it?

[123456789blaaa]

More layer shifts, maybe the spawning stone being destroyed, more on forge elders, a nupperibo matures, raises forces and there's civil war in the hells leaving the demons to run amuk. The loths finish the third tower. Return of the rilmani's predecessors (forget the name), more on the draeden contract. More of the unhuman war. I'm done with orcus, kill him off and make it stick.

Why're you done with him?

[Tanuki Tales]

I don't trust them with ancient baatorians right now. :smalltongue:


Assuming they don't use the 3.5 retcon where Nupperibo became a demotion in form for Devils that screwed up.

[Brookshw]

Why're you done with him?

I suppose because "i hate everything spooky much, even death itself so I won't die" strikes me as one dimensional and a bit contrived. He's just not doing something I find remotely interesting where as the power vacuum left by his demise could be very interesting. Also makes me wonder what would happen if demogorgon split into two physical bodies or one off'd the other how it would change the power balance in the abyss. I doubt any off this would happen, but I think it would be an interesting evolution for the planes.

[Psyren]

From what I gather Graz'zt is much more popular than Orcus among the fans as well. He's sort of the Young Wolf to Asmodeus' Tywin Lannister.

[(Un)Inspired]

I suppose because "i hate everything spooky much, even death itself so I won't die" strikes me as one dimensional and a bit contrived. He's just not doing something I find remotely interesting where as the power vacuum left by his demise could be very interesting. Also makes me wonder what would happen if demogorgon split into two physical bodies or one off'd the other how it would change the power balance in the abyss. I doubt any off this would happen, but I think it would be an interesting evolution for the planes.

That would be so cool if one of Demogorgon's heads killed the other one. Either the dead head would hang limply decaying while the living head continued his reign as a demon prince OR after dying, the dead head gets reanimated as an either unintelligent zombie head on an otherwise living demon body or a very low int undead head that is only dimly aware that it was once the equal of the still living head.


From what I gather Graz'zt is much more popular than Orcus among the fans as well. He's sort of the Young Wolf to Asmodeus' Tywin Lannister.

Graz'zt is popular cause he's a huge man babe. Serious beefcake demon.

[Psyren]

Graz'zt is popular cause he's a huge man babe. Serious beefcake demon.

He's okay I guess - I was always a bigger fan of Dispater (BoVD version.) Granted he's not a demon but still.

[Brookshw]

He's okay I guess - I was always a bigger fan of Dispater (BoVD version.) Granted he's not a demon but still.

The lords of hell definitely have some interesting things going though it has a bit of a soap opera feel at times. Grazzt is kinda fun as a scheming manipulative sob, I guess there's a beef cake factor for some but there's a lot more you can do with him than dress him up as a pretty boy, certainly more than orcus.

Huh, looks like "soooo" got autocorrected to spooky above. Yay phone posting!

[malonkey1]

I'm not interested in 5e, really, although I might cannibalize/backport the Planescape and/or Spelljammer rules for Pathfinder games.

[(Un)Inspired]

The lords of hell definitely have some interesting things going though it has a bit of a soap opera feel at times. Grazzt is kinda fun as a scheming manipulative sob, I guess there's a beef cake factor for some but there's a lot more you can do with him than dress him up as a pretty boy, certainly more than orcus.

Huh, looks like "soooo" got autocorrected to spooky above. Yay phone posting!

I don't know about Graz'zt being a pretty boy. All I'm saying is you could cut diamonds on those abs.

[Psyren]

I'm not interested in 5e, really, although I might cannibalize/backport the Planescape and/or Spelljammer rules for Pathfinder games.

Which is the beauty of PF/3.5 - any fluff they come up with, we can represent mechanically :smallbiggrin: 4e's biggest failure to me was how narrow (or even nonexistent) the mechanics were for certain concepts.

I would say a cool thing for them to do would be to create a 3.5e version of every fluff innovation they come up with for 5e, along with polished and updated/errata'ed versions of the current 3.5 books. These would give them something to sell to the PF fans, because of how easily the 3.5 material can be adapted. Heck, they might even pull some of PF's fanbase back to 3.5.

[CyberThread]

Return back to 3.5 to do what?

[Psyren]

Return back to 3.5 to do what?

What I mean is that diehard fans of PF are unlikely to want to convert to 5e. But if the fluff is repackaged using 3.5 rules as well, I could see PF players shelling out for those books due to the ease of conversion.

Most groups I have seen play 3.P, landing somewhere along the (fairly narrow) spectrum between the two.

[Brookshw]

I don't know about Graz'zt being a pretty boy. All I'm saying is you could cut diamonds on those abs.

This made me chuckle, thank you :smallsmile:

[(Un)Inspired]

This made me chuckle, thank you :smallsmile:

I live to please. Glad you liked it my friend.

[CyberThread]

What I mean is that diehard fans of PF are unlikely to want to convert to 5e. But if the fluff is repackaged using 3.5 rules as well, I could see PF players shelling out for those books due to the ease of conversion.

Most groups I have seen play 3.P, landing somewhere along the (fairly narrow) spectrum between the two.


Deciding which rule set you are clearly playing in, and then tossing all the material you want to use, updated to fit the new spectrum?

[Psyren]

Deciding which rule set you are clearly playing in, and then tossing all the material you want to use, updated to fit the new spectrum?

More or less. No matter what new fluff or even mechanics 5e comes out with, I know the good parts can be made compatible with 3.P; what I don't know is if the reverse is true. But since people are going to convert it backwards anyway, I think a nice thing for WotC to do would be to own the conversion themselves. They could even just do it as a web-only release if they're worried about publishing costs.

But that would mean supporting an older edition, sadly.

[Beldar]

Newer does not always equal better.
We all (or most of us) saw that with 4e eventually.

I don't really care what 5e includes - they lost my interest and loyalty that badly with 4e.

I don't even plan to give 5e a serious look (a cursory one maybe).
I just stick with the games I do enjoy.

My inner cynic says that 5e will last just long enough to get most players to buy lots of books, then it will be replaced with a 6e.

I have no interest in staying on a pointless and endless "upgrade" treadmill. I'll play games that do not endlessly redo their whole set of game mechanics.

[CyberThread]

Newer does not always equal better.
We all (or most of us) saw that with 4e eventually.

I don't really care what 5e includes - they lost my interest and loyalty that badly with 4e.

I don't even plan to give 5e a serious look (a cursory one maybe).
I just stick with the games I do enjoy.

My inner cynic says that 5e will last just long enough to get most players to buy lots of books, then it will be replaced with a 6e.

I have no interest in staying on a pointless and endless "upgrade" treadmill. I'll play games that do not endlessly redo their whole set of game mechanics.

You are only hurting yourself by not trying a game out, you never know what fun that could be had. Several playtest flyers are about, that you could get a feel for the game utterly free, and without any pressure including adventure sets.

Heaven forbid, if your favored game or movie comes out with a sequel :)

[squiggit]

I actually like 4e (hiss! Boo!)

And my biggest concern is that I'm starting to see a pattern where WoTC dumps editions without really finishing or polishing them (both 3.5 and 4 have this problem to a similar extent where they were just sort of dumped when both had lots of things that still needed to be done).

So even if 5e ends up being good, I can't really justify spending a bunch of money on it when I know that it probably won't last more than a few years anyways.

[Beldar]

You are only hurting yourself by not trying a game out

Au Contraire

There are already far far more game systems in existence than I could ever explore in whatever time I can spare for that, even if I had 24/7/365 to do so.

When you can't do everything, you prioritize.

These guys have shown they deserve a low priority, for reasons already mentioned.

I can have a long, happy & varied gaming career without ever dropping a dime on their never-ending "upgrade" treadmill again.

[MirddinEmris]

Well, it's a goof news regardless of edition, because it means there will be new fluff for my beloved Spelljammer (maybe even good fluff, though it's WotC, so i wouldn't hold my breath). I'm going to convert all of the good stuff to FC anyway...

[Shinken]

WotC is already doing mult-system books, such as Murder in Baldur's Gate, as well as releasing digital versions of old D&D (including 3.5) books.
Their best move, of course, would be using the OGL to get a bite out of the Pathfinder cake while promoting 5e on the side.

[choryukami]

I really don't understand why they don't just make it explicit that EVERY PC class is, to some degree, supernatural even if the abilities work in an anti-magic field and a PC should NEVER be constrained by reality. Magic must defeat magic!

Plus it makes the REAL "guy who is really good with a sword" who fights god blessesed warrior, god cursed abominations, insane blind gimps with reversable joints, artifact wielders, living artifacts, golems, ninjas who can jump 2 times their own height with ease and call explosions on demand, ancient god kings ect when he is a unique individual instead of half the heroes in the world.

My take on 15th to 20th level fighters, rogues and the like are they are the equivalent of batman (or perhaps stronger). I mean, levels 1-5 are what normal humans do. 5-10 are the olympians, the greatest of the greats in our world. 10-20 is pretty much the realm of mythology, super heros, high powered wuxia and anime.

And who is the only person who beats superman, the invincible guy? Batman.