ToB noob

[RolandDeschain]

Okay, so I'm trying to help a buddy of mine rebuild/rescue his Samurai from being just incredibly awful(I tried to warn him in advance).

I'm new to the Tome of Battle, so a little help here would be greatly appreciated.

If he took a level of Warblade at 6th level, how would that effect his maneuvers known/level of maneuvers known and stances?

Isn't there something in the rules about his other character class levels counting as 1/2 a level for the ToB classes?

Sorry. I'm sure this type of thing has been asked and answered a dozen times, I'm just lost and don't have the materials in front of me.

Thanks in advance...

[Drogorn]

Just see if the DM will allow him to redo his character as a warblade or crusader. Keep the character, dump the class, as it were.

[eggynack]

It would have no impact on the quantity of maneuvers and stances known or readied, but the five levels of samurai would grant an initiator level of 2, which when added to the warblade would mean an initiator level of three. Thus, he would be allowed access to 2nd level maneuvers and stances. I agree with Drogorn though. A total class swap is often a good idea, if you can manage it.

[Namfuak]

As a side note, your friend could take one level of a non-warblade class and still gain the initiator level because he will have 6 levels, halving to 3 instead of 2. I would recommend barbarian but I'm assuming he's lawful, so other candidates might be a fighter if there's a feat he wants, or Swordsage/Crusader for a few different manuevers (remembering that his Warblade/Samurai levels would count half for the other initiator's manuevers/stances as well).

[Sian]

I'd prehaps bite my lip and suffer in pain for a bit longer ... and when raising to level 11, i'd go Ronin and trade my Samurai levels for Ronin, turning into a Samurai 1 / Ronin 10 :smallbiggrin:

[Andezzar]

Thus, he would be allowed access to 2nd level maneuvers and stances.Not quite. He can select 2nd level maneuvers on his first warblade level (because of IL 3), but he still only gets a 1st level stance regardless of IL.
You begin play with knowledge of one 1st level stance from any discipline open to warblades.

[Bakkan]

Not quite. He can select 2nd level maneuvers on his first warblade level (because of IL 3), but he still only gets a 1st level stance regardless of IL.

There is some disagreement about whether that applies if your first level is not a martial adept class, but in this case it's moot since there are no 2nd-level stances so he'd have to get a 1st-level stance anyway.

[RolandDeschain]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the help.

I should have specified in my original post that the DM is allowing us to rebuild back to level 1 - for some reason he's making him keep the first level Samurai.

Therefore I'm gonna council him to go Samurai 1/Fighter 4/Warblade 1, that way we can pick up a bunch of feats to build off the Exotic Weapon Prof. granted in his first level of Samurai(it's not optimal, but it'll do).

To be clear. He gets three maneuvers known and they CAN be 2nd level, and he gets one 1st level stance from one of his disciplines.

Cool. We'll see what we can do from there. Any awesome 2nd level maneuvers I should be aware of? I don't like it, but he wants to go two-weapon fighter...

[Andezzar]

To be clear. He gets three maneuvers known and they CAN be 2nd level, and he gets one 1st level stance from one of his disciplines.Yup.


Cool. We'll see what we can do from there. Any awesome 2nd level maneuvers I should be aware of? I don't like it, but he wants to go two-weapon fighter...Tiger Claw maneuvers are pretty good for TWF. Moment of Perfect Mind (level 1) and Action before Thought (level 2) are good defenses.

[Petrocorus]

Okay, so I'm trying to help a buddy of mine rebuild/rescue his Samurai from being just incredibly awful(I tried to warn him in advance).

Are we talking Complete Warrior Samurai or Oriental Adventure Samuraï?

In the first case, i strongly second the idea to completely rebuild the character as a Martial Adept. In the second, probably too, but it is "less worst". Note that the 3 martial classes can fit a samuraï.
Going Warblade at 6t is still better that continuing into Samuraï. But remember, before choosing the exact class, and the 1st level maneuvers and stances, you need to define the regular tactics of the character and plan ahead the maneuvers and stance for the future levels.
Remember also that Martial Adepts can take martial study to learn a maneuvers of a discipline of an another class. And given the wording of the feat, i believe they can use their normal Initiator Level to choose the said maneuvers, which means, if i'm correct, that a Warblade lvl 13 can take Shadow Blink.



Not quite. He can select 2nd level maneuvers on his first warblade level (because of IL 3), but he still only gets a 1st level stance regardless of IL.

IIRC, there are no second level stances, anyway.

[Namfuak]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the help.

I should have specified in my original post that the DM is allowing us to rebuild back to level 1 - for some reason he's making him keep the first level Samurai.

Therefore I'm gonna council him to go Samurai 1/Fighter 4/Warblade 1, that way we can pick up a bunch of feats to build off the Exotic Weapon Prof. granted in his first level of Samurai(it's not optimal, but it'll do).

To be clear. He gets three maneuvers known and they CAN be 2nd level, and he gets one 1st level stance from one of his disciplines.

Cool. We'll see what we can do from there. Any awesome 2nd level maneuvers I should be aware of? I don't like it, but he wants to go two-weapon fighter...

It's unfortunate that you have to take the first samurai level, but I'd only recommend taking one non-Warblade level since it will still add to your initiator level for Warblade as well as fix the Warblade stance progression (as written you get your second stance at level 4, which means that you only have 1st level stances available, but if you delay for two levels you get it at initiator level five, opening up 3rd level stances). So, possibly Samurai 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 18, taking 2-weapon fighting (since I'd assume you still want that style) with the fighter level and using your warblade fighter bonus feats for the rest of the TWF line.

[Phelix-Mu]

Just paste all of the Samurai abilities onto Warblade, and give him all 6 levels as a Warblade. Still won't hit Tier 2 and will allow him to keep any of his existing stuff that he likes.

Have a few sparring sessions or fights with goblins or other small-fries in order to make sure the player comprehends the use of the Warblade stuff, understands the refresh mechanic and the like.

Done and dusted.

[Gwendol]

You want to keep classes at even numbers. Samurai 2/Warblade 4 should work just fine.

[RolandDeschain]

To answer some of the questions here:

1) it's the CW Samurai not the OA

2) i'm not the DM so I can't wave any requirements or levels

3) the DM won't allow rebuilding the 1st level, but everything else is okay

4) i'm also working with my buddy's "vision" of the character, not mine, so it's highly disfunctional in some ways, but it's what he wants.

Here's what I've recommended:

Samurai 1/Fighter 4/Kensai 1/Warblade 2/Kensai(he's in love with PrC, so he may take all of the levels...who knows)

It's "better" than where he was headed.

He gets one 1st level Stance - I recommended Iron Heart: Punishing Stance
He gets three 2nd level Maneuvers - Disarming Strike, Wall of Blades, and Battle Leaders Charge.

I think he'll get 1 3rd level Maneuver when he takes his second level of Warblade so I recommended Bonecrusher.

I had very little input in his feats, they are most two-weapon fighting stuff but I recommended Powerful Charge and Two-Weapon Pounce.

I don't know what to think. Like I said, I think it is "better" than where he was going....

[RolandDeschain]

Uhhh....I just read White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge and am seriously thinking Bonecrusher sucks.

Any opinions on which is better WRT or IHS?

[Godskook]

Any opinions on which is better WRT or IHS?

IHS has more agency to it, which makes it more fun for your friend. WRT is more powerful, though.

[Red Fel]

Uhhh....I just read White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge and am seriously thinking Bonecrusher sucks.

Any opinions on which is better WRT or IHS?

WRT is the ultimate in action economy-breaking team tactics. It is one of the most powerful abilities of its level; if you have a partymember who could end combat right now, you can decide that they do so.

IHS is shouted from the rooftops for a reason - while it doesn't break the action economy like WRT does, its poor wording means that it can be used to remove all sorts of negative conditions, which makes your Warblade a force to be reckoned with. (With which to be reckoned.) It is absolutely invaluable. But I agree, WRT is more powerful in terms of its ability to break the action economy.

Also, be sure to look into the Diamond Mind save-counters - being able to substitute an easily-optimized skill check for a saving throw is brilliant, and ensuring that you don't botch on a 1 is a major plus.

[Hiro Protagonest]

IHS is shouted from the rooftops for a reason - while it doesn't break the action economy like WRT does, its poor wording means that it can be used to remove all sorts of negative conditions, which makes your Warblade a force to be reckoned with. (With which to be reckoned.) It is absolutely invaluable. But I agree, WRT is more powerful in terms of its ability to break the action economy.

IHS also doesn't work in many legitimate circumstances because it takes a standard action.