I summon a large earth elemental 5ft above my foe.....

[CyberThread]

So am dming abd need help.

Player summons a 3 ton creature on top of my bbeg


What would you rule into happening?

[Brookshw]

That it needs to be summoned on a surface that it supports it so "no".

[Fax Celestis]

No Can Do, Skycaptain.


Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. "

www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm

[eggynack]

Here's the real question, I think. What if the creature is big enough, or even flat enough, that it could potentially be considered a suitable surface for your summons? Could you stick random creatures atop the heads of your enemies? It'd presumably only work for a creature that's strong enough that it can support your summons, which limits this somewhat, but summoning wolves on top of a giant's head seems rather amusing.

[Stygofthedump]

I guess if the ceiling is high then this is an effective use of a medium earth elemental as it can earth glide up there then drop. d6 damage/foot beyond the first 10 feet isn't bad if its a 100 foot cavern. Sadly additional weight does not increase damage.

[nedz]

No can do, for the reasons others have stated.


Here's the real question, I think. What if the creature is big enough, or even flat enough, that it could potentially be considered a suitable surface for your summons? Could you stick random creatures atop the heads of your enemies? It'd presumably only work for a creature that's strong enough that it can support your summons, which limits this somewhat, but summoning wolves on top of a giant's head seems rather amusing.

This should be fine, but it wouldn't do any damage.

[CyberThread]

Depends. .. you would have to break out the encumbered rules

[eggynack]

Depends. .. you would have to break out the encumbered rules
Possibly, though not to the greatest extent. If your summons would be over-encumbering your foe, then the foe doesn't really qualify as a surface that's capable of supporting it, so that wouldn't work. You may be able to push the opponent from up a load category though.

[Zweisteine]

I guess if the ceiling is high then this is an effective use of a medium earth elemental as it can earth glide up there then drop. d6 damage/foot beyond the first 10 feet isn't bad if its a 100 foot cavern. Sadly additional weight does not increase damage.
Weight actually does increase damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)


Falling Objects
Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.

For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.

Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.
The link has the table for "falling range increments" as well.

[Manly Man]

This should be fine, but it wouldn't do any damage.

A fire elemental would.

[CyberThread]

A fire elemental would.

True ..but...fire is as light as...air

[Rubik]

True ..but...fire is as light as...airActually, I don't think air produces any light at all.

[Captnq]

True ..but...fire is as light as...air

Nope.

All elementals have weight.

For example, an air elemental is 40' tall, weighs 12 pounds, and is as solid as you or I. Unless they go whirlwind, they cannot pass around solid objects. Iron bars keep out an air elemental. In fact, I'm not sure whirlwind lets you go through iron bars, now that I read it.

That is just so god damn stupid.

[Psyren]

Actually, I don't think air produces any light at all.

For this to really work he'd have had to say that air is as light as fire.


Nope.

All elementals have weight.

For example, an air elemental is 40' tall, weighs 12 pounds, and is as solid as you or I. Unless they go whirlwind, they cannot pass around solid objects. Iron bars keep out an air elemental. In fact, I'm not sure whirlwind lets you go through iron bars, now that I read it.

That is just so god damn stupid.

This is one of those things that you kind of have to read past the rules to get. Like the fact that a gaseous form creature can't be grappled.

I'm in favor of rules-heavy systems but it's unrealistic for them to spell out every little interaction possible; at some point common sense has to take over.

[Rubik]

For this to really work he'd have had to say that air is as light as fire.No, because while fire produces light, air doesn't, which is what I said earlier.

[Psyren]

No, because while fire produces light, air doesn't, which is what I said earlier.

Oh, I thought you were joking. Because he said "light" as in "lacking weight" not as in "luminous."

[Rubik]

Oh, I thought you were joking. Because he said "light" as in "lacking weight" not as in "luminous."I was, and that's the joke.

But it ain't funny when I go explaining it.

Thanks for making me ruin it. :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

I was, and that's the joke.

But it ain't funny when I go explaining it.

Thanks for making me ruin it. :smallfrown:

And I was saying the joke would work better if... nevermind

[Rubik]

And I was saying the joke would work better if... nevermindI don't get it.

[Psyren]

I don't get it.

Fire is both light and light. Air is only light. So for your joke to work, it would have to be the other way around, saying that air is as light as fire, because then there would be ambiguity as to which meaning of light is meant, since fire has two. Your confusion about air not being light despite being light would then be understandable and the joke would be preserved. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke)

tl;dr I need to go to bed...

[Phelix-Mu]

Wait? Does the internet make more jokes than it kills? How can we solve this injustice? And, omg, did this post have an on-topic point?

BEWARE TVTROPES, FOR THOU ART MORTAL AND THY TIME UPON THIS FORSAKEN EARTH FINITE.

I always did wonder if earth elementals can earthglide through a ceiling of a cavern or something. Earthglide is really, really poorly described.

[Rubik]

Fire is both light and light. Air is only light. So for your joke to work, it would have to be the other way around, saying that air is as light as fire, because then there would be ambiguity as to which meaning of light is meant, since fire has two. Your confusion about air not being light despite being light would then be understandable and the joke would be preserved. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke)

tl;dr I need to go to bed...But I thought air and fire were their own elementary particles...

[Drachasor]

But I thought air and fire were their own elementary particles...

Aerions and Burnions are families of particles.

Did you flunk school or something?

[Curmudgeon]

Here's the real question, I think. What if the creature is big enough, or even flat enough, that it could potentially be considered a suitable surface for your summons? Could you stick random creatures atop the heads of your enemies?
Nope; not legal in D&D.
Ending Your Movement

You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. Make the creature helpless first, and then you can set something on it.

[Drachasor]

Nope; not legal in D&D. Make the creature helpless first, and then you can set something on it.

D&D is a little fuzzy on where squares begin and end on the z axis. Though we could assume 5' cubes, it doesn't explicitly state this.

And to be precise, the rules don't say you can't be in the same square as another creature. They only say you can't END YOUR MOVEMENT in the same square. So as long as you aren't using a form of movement, you are good.

[eggynack]

Basically what Drachasor said. If the creature on the other creature's head qualifies as existing in a separate square, then they're not in the same square. I mean, there's some argument that anything above a given square is also within that square, but that obviously makes the game really silly.

[Psyren]

D&D is a little fuzzy on where squares begin and end on the z axis. Though we could assume 5' cubes, it doesn't explicitly state this.

And to be precise, the rules don't say you can't be in the same square as another creature. They only say you can't END YOUR MOVEMENT in the same square. So as long as you aren't using a form of movement, you are good.

This requires arguing that summoning or teleporting something doesn't move it, which... yeah.

[Drachasor]

This requires arguing that summoning or teleporting something doesn't move it, which... yeah.

No.

You don't ever "end your movement" if you don't move at all.

Also there's grappling.

Also there's the mount rules.

And teleportation isn't movement, so you could theoretically use that to end up in the same square as someone else.

To say nothing of being technically above the square, though that's a bit of rules bending.

There are a few other ways though too.

[Phelix-Mu]

This requires arguing that summoning or teleporting something doesn't move it, which... yeah.

I think it was the "your" that should have been emphasized. If someone else teleports you, is it "your movement." The game is kind of vague about this, from what I recall.

[eggynack]

This requires arguing that summoning or teleporting something doesn't move it, which... yeah.
Not really. The rules say that you can't end your movement in someone else's square. That doesn't technically preclude you from moving a summoned creature into that occupied square. So, even if teleporting means that you're moving something, it's irrelevant because the creature sharing the square and the creature moving are two different creatures.

[Psyren]

No.

You don't ever "end your movement" if you don't move at all.

Also there's grappling.

Also there's the mount rules.

And teleportation isn't movement, so you could theoretically use that to end up in the same square as someone else.

To say nothing of being technically above the square, though that's a bit of rules bending.

There are a few other ways though too.

1) If you are displaced by something else you've still moved.
2) Specific exception.
3) Specific exception.
4) All those scout builds that use anklets of translocation should probably know that.
5) I do think you could port a creature on top of another (much larger) creature. Like teleporting onto a dragon's back, or a Colossus' head.

[Equilibria]

For this to really work he'd have had to say that air is as light as fire.



This is one of those things that you kind of have to read past the rules to get. Like the fact that a gaseous form creature can't be grappled.

I'm in favor of rules-heavy systems but it's unrealistic for them to spell out every little interaction possible; at some point common sense has to take over.

THIS, THIS, THIS, THIS :smallfurious:

It is obvious that it´s not supposed to be possible... all interpretations aside.

[Drachasor]

1) If you are displaced by something else you've still moved.
2) Specific exception.
3) Specific exception.
4) All those scout builds that use anklets of translocation should probably know that.
5) I do think you could port a creature on top of another (much larger) creature. Like teleporting onto a dragon's back, or a Colossus' head.

1) All moving is not Movement.
2) Grappling isn't movement though.
3) Neither is getting on a mount, though since mounted rules involve movement, yeah, it is an exception. There are quite a lot of those, however. And again, lots of ways to move without Movement.
4) The Anklet of Translocation specifically forbids moving into the square of another creature. Otherwise you could.
5) Sure, but you could also do it to get into the same square of a creature your size.

[hemming]

If I failed a balance check and fell off a ledge into the same square as an enemy, would I end my turn in that same square or be automatically pushed out into a random adjacent square?

I would think I would end in the same square (if anyone can cite this let me know) Edit: per another thread (thanx curmudgeon) no I would not

Would summoning a creature that falls on another follow the same rules?

[Fax Celestis]

Nope; not legal in D&D. Make the creature helpless first, and then you can set something on it.

The rule you quoted creates more problems than it solves, tbh.

[Psyren]

The Anklet of Translocation specifically forbids moving into the square of another creature. Otherwise you could.

You said it's not movement at all, which means they can't trigger Skirmish by teleporting.


Sure, but you could also do it to get into the same square of a creature your size.

I don't think a creature of your size could be a surface capable of supporting you though.

[nedz]

I don't think a creature of your size could be a surface capable of supporting you though.

If it's one size larger then it can be a mount. Now you might get a -5 Ride skill penalty, but that's probably moot.

If it's two sizes larger then you can occupy the same square anyway.

[Psyren]

If it's one size larger then it can be a mount. Now you might get a -5 Ride skill penalty, but that's probably moot.

If it's two sizes larger then you can occupy the same square anyway.

Right, and I'm fine with both of those.

[Fax Celestis]

If it's one size larger then it can be a mount. Now you might get a -5 Ride skill penalty, but that's probably moot.

If it's two sizes larger then you can occupy the same square anyway.

Technically. Neither the mounted combat rules nor the sizing rules provide a specific exemption for ending your movement in an occupied space. I know, it's RAWdiculous, but the RAI is pretty clear.

[Stygofthedump]

Excuse my ignorance but can someone explain to me why I cant summon an earth elemental on the ground then instruct it to glide through the rock, up a cave wall, along the cave roof then drop onto foe?

[Barstro]

Excuse my ignorance but can someone explain to me why I cant summon an earth elemental on the ground then instruct it to glide through the rock, up a cave wall, along the cave roof then drop onto foe?

My DM pretty much ruled that you can.

I think you must at least speak the creature's language and either convince it to do what you ask, or make a check (handle animal?). Otherwise, summoning a wild dog should simply cause the dog to do whatever it would normally do (attack? urinate?) for as long as it is around.

[Fax Celestis]

Excuse my ignorance but can someone explain to me why I cant summon an earth elemental on the ground then instruct it to glide through the rock, up a cave wall, along the cave roof then drop onto foe?

Not only can you, I have in fact done so as a player, and I used a readied action to drink a potion of enlarge person on the way down.

The difference here is that summoned creatures have to wait a turn before doing anything (due to all summoning spells having a casting time of 1 round), which gives the squishee time to move out of the way of the squisher. If you ignore the unsupported terrain rule, then you get such shenanigans as using a whale as an AoE attack.

[Stygofthedump]

My DM pretty much ruled that you can.

I think you must at least speak the creature's language and either convince it to do what you ask, or make a check (handle animal?). Otherwise, summoning a wild dog should simply cause the dog to do whatever it would normally do (attack? urinate?) for as long as it is around.
Agreed

Ok now that we have bought thread back on track :smallwink: can someone tell me what damage a large earth elemental does dropping from 90 feet does?

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Large earth Ele = 6000/200 =30d6 + 90 feet-10=8d6 (to max 20d6)
all totals 38D6? or does the max 20D6 apply to weight as well as height?

How about the elemental kicking off large chunks of the ceiling?

[Drachasor]

You said it's not movement at all, which means they can't trigger Skirmish by teleporting.

I'd say that's correct.

It doesn't fit under the definitions of movement in the game which are from one square to an adjacent square to the next...etc.

Do you have a rules citation that demonstrates otherwise?


I don't think a creature of your size could be a surface capable of supporting you though.

I think that depends on the strength score, nature of the creature, and whether it knows you are coming.

[Curmudgeon]

Ok now that we have bought thread back on track :smallwink: can someone tell me what damage a large earth elemental does dropping from 90 feet does?
Well, that would be none for me; my characters always make their DC 15 Reflex saves to avoid the damage. :smallbiggrin: