What is Divine Metamagic?

[Rakaydos]

I've heard the term DMM thrown around as a particular bit of cheese, and I'm wondering what it consists of.

[Snowbluff]

It's a Divine Feat. Select 1 MM. Pay 1+(the spell level cost) in turn attempts to apply the MM to a spell with no slot adjustment.

7 turn attempts gives you a persisted spell. Good with Divine Power/Righteous Might/Mass Vigor.

[Telonius]

The abuse starts when you apply things like Nightsticks. (Nightstick is a fairly cheap rod, found in Libris Mortis, that gives extra Turn Attempts per day. It stacks with itself, though there is some controversy about how many you can have active at once).

[Snowbluff]

The abuse starts when you apply things like Nightsticks. (Nightstick is a fairly cheap rod, found in Libris Mortis, that gives extra Turn Attempts per day. It stacks with itself, though there is some controversy about how many you can have active at once).

Also, having extra sources of the ability. Cleric1/AzurinCleric1/DreadNecro1/other stuff. You get your charisma to your turning multiple times.

Divine and Domain feats are so awesome, by the way. *gush*

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've heard the term DMM thrown around as a particular bit of cheese, and I'm wondering what it consists of.

It's a feat found in Complete Divine on page 80, modified by that book's errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). For purposes of rules discussion and clarity, you can find the full wording here (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-divine--56/divine-metamagic--660/).

Basically you spend seven daily uses of your Turn/Rebuke Undead ability to add Persistent Spell to one of your personal or fixed range spells (touch is not a fixed range) to make it last 24 hours. Bless and Divine Favor, Elation from BoED, Mass Lesser Vigor in SC, Divine Power, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful in SC are some favorites. For the higher levels, the Visage of the Deity series of spells, Holy Star, and Stormrage all in SC are extremely popular, as is Choose Destiny from the Destiny domain in RoD.

Night Sticks are an item in Libris Mortis that gives you the effect of Extra Turning for 7500 gp, and it's worded in a way that allows multiples of them to stack. This allows most Clerics who abuse this feat to have more than enough daily turn/rebuke uses to make all the above Persistent every day.

[Crake]

The abuse starts when you apply things like Nightsticks. (Nightstick is a fairly cheap rod, found in Libris Mortis, that gives extra Turn Attempts per day. It stacks with itself, though there is some controversy about how many you can have active at once).

People keep saying it stacks with itself, although I've never understood where people get that notion from. Do you also think that wielding two shields gives you twice the shield AC bonus? The game is quite clear about stacking effects, and same sources don't stack, unless otherwise stated, thus two nightsticks will never stack with themselves.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

People keep saying it stacks with itself, although I've never understood where people get that notion from. Do you also think that wielding two shields gives you twice the shield AC bonus? The game is quite clear about stacking effects, and same sources don't stack, unless otherwise stated, thus two nightsticks will never stack with themselves.

If it said +4, it would be a bonus and the stacking rules would apply. That's not what it says though, it was worded in a way that makes it so those rules do not apply.

It's similar to the post-errata wording of Leap Attack, which was causing a lot of confusion as to how it interacted with other multiplier effects. The current wording is as follows: "...you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat." The designers intentionally worded it in a way that the multiplier rules would not apply to it, and the same thing goes for Night Sticks and the rules on stacking bonuses.

Furthermore, Night Sticks mimic the Extra Turning feat, which does stack with itself. The RAW is an ironclad yes-it-stacks, and even the RAI has an extremely strong case for them stacking. Considering there's no modification to this item in the LM errata, it looks like it's working exactly as the designers intended.

[Firechanter]

You pick up a Nightstick, you gain 4 Turn Attempts.
You put down the Nightstick, you lose 4 Turn Attempts.
As simple as that.

[Zetapup]

It's a feat found in Complete Divine on page 80, modified by that book's errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). For purposes of rules discussion and clarity, you can find the full wording here (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-divine--56/divine-metamagic--660/).

Basically you spend seven daily uses of your Turn/Rebuke Undead ability to add Persistent Spell to one of your personal or fixed range spells (touch is not a fixed range) to make it last 24 hours. Bless and Divine Favor, Elation from BoED, Mass Lesser Vigor in SC, Divine Power, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful in SC are some favorites. For the higher levels, the Visage of the Deity series of spells, Holy Star, and Stormrage all in SC are extremely popular, as is Choose Destiny from the Destiny domain in RoD.

Night Sticks are an item in Libris Mortis that gives you the effect of Extra Turning for 7500 gp, and it's worded in a way that allows multiples of them to stack. This allows most Clerics who abuse this feat to have more than enough daily turn/rebuke uses to make all the above Persistent every day.

If I recall correctly, the "fixed range no touch" restriction can be avoided by using ocular spell to make a touch spell into a ray (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm AFAB at the moment). It can get pretty ridiculous with the various buffs clerics have. Using dmm with other metamagics is still decent, but it's not the level that dmm+persist is on.

[Snowbluff]

If I recall correctly, the "fixed range no touch" restriction can be avoided by using ocular spell to make a touch spell into a ray (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm AFAB at the moment). It can get pretty ridiculous with the various buffs clerics have. Using dmm with other metamagics is still decent, but it's not the level that dmm+persist is on.

This is true. The spell's range become fixed at 60 feet.

Touch isn't a fixed range.

[Glimbur]

You pick up a Nightstick, you gain 4 Turn Attempts.
You put down the Nightstick, you lose 4 Turn Attempts.
As simple as that.

What if I pick up two nightsticks at the same time? What if I use all my turn attempts, then put down the nightstick? Can I go to negative turns available?

Were I to house-rule it; I would have people keep track of Turn Undead Attempts used, not those remaining. Or, more simply, ban night sticks.

[Telonius]

If it said +4, it would be a bonus and the stacking rules would apply. That's not what it says though, it was worded in a way that makes it so those rules do not apply.

It's similar to the post-errata wording of Leap Attack, which was causing a lot of confusion as to how it interacted with other multiplier effects. The current wording is as follows: "...you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat." The designers intentionally worded it in a way that the multiplier rules would not apply to it, and the same thing goes for Night Sticks and the rules on stacking bonuses.

Furthermore, Night Sticks mimic the Extra Turning feat, which does stack with itself. The RAW is an ironclad yes-it-stacks, and even the RAI has an extremely strong case for them stacking. Considering there's no modification to this item in the LM errata, it looks like it's working exactly as the designers intended.

Also, consider if the item were actually used for turning undead. (Weird concept, I know, but bear with me :smallwink:). You pick one up, turn undead four times, then set it down. Would you then be able to pick up another one and turn an additional four undead? It seems pretty evident that you'd be able to.

[Crake]

Also, consider if the item were actually used for turning undead. (Weird concept, I know, but bear with me :smallwink:). You pick one up, turn undead four times, then set it down. Would you then be able to pick up another one and turn an additional four undead? It seems pretty evident that you'd be able to.

Say you have 3 turns per day normally. You use those 3 turns, then pick up a night stick, you now have 7 turns per day, so you use 4 more. You've now used 7 turns. You put the nightstick down and your turns per day drop back down to 3, so you have no available turns anymore. You pick up another nightstick and get another 4 uses per day, putting your daily limit back up to 7, but you've already used 7 uses, so... you're still at 0 turns left. Just because the number of turns per day is reduced, doesn't mean the turns you've already used are somehow negated.

Or do you allow clerics to damage their charisma, then heal it up for more turns per day.

As for holding two at once, extra turning explicitly calls itself out in that it stacks with itself, i see no such clause in nightsticks. If it said it grants the owner the extra turning feat, then maybe there'd be some ground to stand on, but as is, possessing the nightstick grants an effect, which doesn't say it stacks with itself, so it's effects overlap. Having 2 doesn't give you 8 extra turns per day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also, consider if the item were actually used for turning undead. (Weird concept, I know, but bear with me :smallwink:). You pick one up, turn undead four times, then set it down. Would you then be able to pick up another one and turn an additional four undead? It seems pretty evident that you'd be able to.

"Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day."

They work just as well from your backpack as they do if you're holding it in your hand.

[137beth]

"Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day."

They work just as well from your backpack as they do if you're holding it in your hand.

Then drop it on the group (after combat). There, now you don't possess it. Now pick it up again and put it in your bag of holding. Now you do possess it:smalltongue:

[Andezzar]

Then drop it on the group (after combat). There, now you don't possess it. Now pick it up again and put it in your bag of holding. Now you do possess it:smalltongue:No, possession does not work that way. Otherwise you would lose possession of say your car every time you exit it.

[Firest Kathon]

No, possession does not work that way. Otherwise you would lose possession of say your car every time you exit it.

I would like to point out the legal difference between possession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_%28law%29) and ownership (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership). Simple example: If you borrow my car, you now have possession of the car, but I still have ownership. If I drop my keys, I no longer have posession of them (nobody has at that moment), but I am still the owner.</smart-ass>

It's an interesting question if D&D rulebooks were written with that legal distinction in mind...

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's really no reason to argue over the exact wording. If you don't want stacking Nightsticks in your game limit them to one or ban them altogether.
"DMM is powerful enough already" is really all the reason you need.