Killing off NPCs and final speeches

[Madeiner]

So, every fantasy story worth its salt needs to have someone die, possibly with a final touching speech before departing.
Only, in d&d that's impossible by RAW. Either the creature is alive and can be brought back with healing magic, or is dead.

Now, in my campaign i never killed any NPC this way, but i intend to start soon. The thing is, i dont want my players to break immersion by arguing that the NPC CAN be saved if above -COS hp. And i KNOW my players will argue this and break immersion, even if i rarely respect RAW.
So, i want to change the rules, but i want to do so in a way that the players dont realize some NPCs are gonna die soon.
If i just say "you can now speak for a few minutes before dying", its too obvious a clue that something is gonna happen.

Since i am redesigning the death system as part of homebrew, i think i can touch the death rules and raise little suspicion in doing so.
I have planned to include new text that says:

"When below 0 hp, you choose whether you are conscious or not. When below -10 hp but above -cost hp, your wounds are so severe that no mundane or magical healing can help you. Except under very rare circumstances, you will bleed out in a few minutes.
At -cost hp, you are dead."

What would you guys say? Is this credible enough? Is it too obvious that i intend to climatically kill NPCs (of course, its the NPCs they are the most attached to, George Martin style)?

[Zweisteine]

First, -cos? I assume you mean -con.

Give the NPC diehard, and remember that talking is a free action. Even as the final blow strikes, he can talk.

If your players complain that he couldn't have done it, say this:
"He had diehard, and talking is a free action."

You don't even need to give him diehard's prerequisites. You are the DM; you can do whatever you want.

It doesn't make much sense to be able to choose to be conscious. Think about it. If you've been bludgeoned in the head, you are knocked out, no matter what you think of it.

[Nettlekid]

I think that for your purposes, that works pretty well, but I would question your motives about forcing NPCs to die and making it completely out of the PCs' control. If you're entering into a battle where you intend to kill off an NPC, are they doomed from the moment you roll initiative, and nothing the PCs do to protect the NPC will save them through the whole fight? Because pretty quickly, the characters will realize that NPCs are basically disposable plot hooks (if they haven't been so jaded already) and soon they won't care about any NPCs, knowing they'll die pretty soon.

In my experience, there's nothing as annoying to a player as hearing "No you can't do the thing because I don't want you do." Not about like chain-gating Solars or going Pun-Pun, I mean like "Your focused Conjurer isn't able to summon any monsters or teleport for the rest of the campaign." It'll just annoy people to feel like they're being limited for no reason. So at first they might feel that way about the <-10 HP rule, but you can remind them that normally the NPC would be dead now already, so they probably won't care about that. But once they realize that the NPC is dead as soon as you plan for them to be dead and they can't change that...that might upset them.

[Blackhawk748]

It sounds ok to me, drop below -10 from a sword to the gut, players kill sword wielder, "ok guys, monologue time" "But i can HEAL him" "nope, that sword went through several arteries and 2 organs, nothing can save him now"

Honestly this is a thing in all fantasy that has healing magic, there are just some things that cant be healed. I like to use Wheel of Time as an example, its one of the most high powered magic universes i know of, outside of DnD, and if someone gets a sword to the gut and you dont start healing them REAL quick, they're boned.

[Madeiner]

Give the NPC diehard, and remember that talking is a free action

It doesn't make much sense to be able to choose to be conscious. Think about it. If you've been bludgeoned in the head, you are knocked out, no matter what you think of it.

I thought about diehard, but still it's going to be brought up the first time at least.
About consciousness, im picturing soldiers on a battlefields, severely wounded and still conscious, crawling and barely able to speak. It happens all the time on tv shows.


I think that for your purposes, that works pretty well, but I would question your motives about forcing NPCs to die and making it completely out of the PCs' control. If you're entering into a battle where you intend to kill off an NPC, are they doomed from the moment you roll initiative, and nothing the PCs do to protect the NPC will save them through the whole fight? Because pretty quickly, the characters will realize that NPCs are basically disposable plot hooks (if they haven't been so jaded already) and soon they won't care about any NPCs, knowing they'll die pretty soon.
[...]
once they realize that the NPC is dead as soon as you plan for them to be dead and they can't change that...that might upset them.

That's an interesting point.
I was thinking more about climatic parts of a campaign, that is also about to end. Of course you can protect an NPC: while he's alive, PCs have a lot of spells and abilities to protect them or heal them if needed.
They have agency to protect NPCs in any way they can, while they are still alive.
However, once they are down, then i want them to stay down. And i want them to talk after the fight and say something meaningful, since its the end of an 8 year campaign and things are going to be pretty grim before the final resolution.


What i'm also picturing here, is scenes you can see in movies: the not-so-good NPC planted a bomb somewhere, but then is overcome by guilt and goes to disarm it. In doing so, he gets mortally wounded. The PCs find him crawling on the ground. And i want him to explain what he did and why, and repent himself and then die. If he dies too soon, he can't tell that story. If he gets healed, a lot of the drama is removed and that cool scene can't happen.

[Duke of Urrel]

I think the best house rule to make would alter the rules for the dying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#dying1to9HitPoints) condition. A dying creature with a dramatic speech to make would miraculously stabilize (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#stableCharactersandRecovery) and become conscious just long enough to deliver the speech, then fall unconscious again and die.

[Deophaun]

Honestly this is a thing in all fantasy that has healing magic, there are just some things that cant be healed.
That's a good point for, ironically, the reason that there actually are spells that are perfect for this, like last breath.

[Nettlekid]

That's a good point for, ironically, the reason that there actually are spells that are perfect for this, like last breath.

This actually raises a really good point: What are you planning to do about magic like Raise Dead?
"Hey sensei, you choked on your own blood before telling us the real name of your murderer. But you're okay now, so hey, who was that guy? Also aid us in the final battle."

[BrokenChord]

Alternatively, in your world, children are taught from a young age to call for help and then shut up if they're wounded badly, because the cosmic forces of the universe decided that people are allowed to sustain their life with dramatic speeches for indeterminate amounts of time, but to do so gives them immunity to healing of any kind.

I suppose I'm more open to ridiculous references to cliche in-universe than most people, though.

[Zweisteine]

It was a magical bomb and disarming it discharged some of its energy into him. The wounds will not close, because the magic is pushing out from inside his body. Nothing short of Wish, Miracle, Limited Wish, or Regeneration (maybe) can save him.

[Vogonjeltz]

So, every fantasy story worth its salt needs to have someone die, possibly with a final touching speech before departing.
Only, in d&d that's impossible by RAW. Either the creature is alive and can be brought back with healing magic, or is dead.

Now, in my campaign i never killed any NPC this way, but i intend to start soon. The thing is, i dont want my players to break immersion by arguing that the NPC CAN be saved if above -COS hp. And i KNOW my players will argue this and break immersion, even if i rarely respect RAW.
So, i want to change the rules, but i want to do so in a way that the players dont realize some NPCs are gonna die soon.
If i just say "you can now speak for a few minutes before dying", its too obvious a clue that something is gonna happen.

Since i am redesigning the death system as part of homebrew, i think i can touch the death rules and raise little suspicion in doing so.
I have planned to include new text that says:

"When below 0 hp, you choose whether you are conscious or not. When below -10 hp but above -cost hp, your wounds are so severe that no mundane or magical healing can help you. Except under very rare circumstances, you will bleed out in a few minutes.
At -cost hp, you are dead."

What would you guys say? Is this credible enough? Is it too obvious that i intend to climatically kill NPCs (of course, its the NPCs they are the most attached to, George Martin style)?

Why not give the NPC Diehard?

[BrokenChord]

Why not give the NPC Diehard?

I believe the OP expressly wants to avoid "hey, he's above -10 then! Here's a Cure spell!" So Diehard is sort of useless for this purpose. It does a nice job of emulating soldiers laying around dying and actually crying, begging for help, or crawling back to camp, though.

[Abithrios]

Some specific injuries may prevent continued life, but not be fully cured by healing hit point damage, requiring regeneration or similar, but most such injuries I can think of would also greatly hinder speech.

Does the NPC have time to write down these thoughts before the climactic scene? If so, they could have a note fall from their hand, sleeve, pocket, etc when they die. Some people may be more honest and open expressing their thoughts to paper than directly to the person it's written to.

Some source of damage over time might work, especially if the players do not have the power to stop it (only heal it as it comes) and the damage each round is more than the last. Now that I think of it, poison could have an effect like this--they find the NPC in bad condition, but alive, and have a chance to talk, but then succumbs to the poison without mentioning that is what is killing him. If neither he nor the PCs know what is going on, then effective treatment becomes more difficult. If he has made peace with the idea of dying, or is too obsessed with telling his side of the story, he may not tell the PCs what ails him even if he knows--he may even lie. If he has not come to terms with his demise, he may be in denial, refusing to believe his condition is as bad as it is. The prospect of death, combined with major blood loss could cloud the thoughts and scramble the priorities of even a battle-hardened veteran. The risk to this plan is that the PCs apply some cure-all that actually cures everything without the need to diagnose exactly what the problem is. There may be something in some rulebook that acts kind of like poison but is harder to mitigate.

Some groups may let you explicitly suspend normal rules for dramatic effect, as long as it is not too often, or too crazy. If you think your group is one of them, ask ahead of time, then, when the time comes, invoke the suspension of rules. Not every group will be cool with this, and even those who are may want assurances that you are not going to abuse it.

[ryu]

Have you considered having the NPC have a crafted contingent transcend mortality on them to go off when they hit negatives? Becomes almost impossible for non-high-op/high level people to kill for several rounds, but straight up dies at the end no questions asked.

[metalman42]

In the Twilight Reign series by Tom Lloyd, there's a poison called sea-diamond venom that causes normal poisoning, but is exacerbated by magic. When magic is used to get rid of the venom, it goes nuts and starts eating away at the body, becoming immune to any magical or non-magical antitoxin.

If you had a villain use this on an NPC that the players wanted to keep alive, and they cast magic on them to keep them alive, it'd be nasty. They'd be burning heal spells left and right, but nothing could keep the NPC alive for long. I think there's also a madness component, too. Even bringing the NPC back might not work, unless the body was somehow scourged of the toxin before being raised.

If you were able to get all this across, the NPC would have provided the PCs with a final speech and dramatic death, and also a statement: The stakes have been raised, and even your magic might not keep you alive. You could almost make a whole campaign out of what happens after the PCs find out about this stuff.

[TuggyNE]

In the Twilight Reign series by Tom Lloyd, there's a poison called sea-diamond venom that causes normal poisoning, but is exacerbated by magic. When magic is used to get rid of the venom, it goes nuts and starts eating away at the body, becoming immune to any magical or non-magical antitoxin.

Someone should stat that up.

[Rejusu]

Honestly this is a thing in all fantasy that has healing magic, there are just some things that cant be healed. I like to use Wheel of Time as an example, its one of the most high powered magic universes i know of, outside of DnD, and if someone gets a sword to the gut and you dont start healing them REAL quick, they're boned.

That's pretty true of D&D too. There's a narrow margin between dying and dead and it doesn't take much to push you over that. If you're bleeding out you only have a matter of seconds. The problem is that if you're arguing that they have enough time to monologue you don't have enough time to start healing them.


Have you considered having the NPC have a crafted contingent transcend mortality on them to go off when they hit negatives? Becomes almost impossible for non-high-op/high level people to kill for several rounds, but straight up dies at the end no questions asked.

So.... Jedi ghost? :smalltongue:

What about giving him tomb tainted soul or finding some affliction that gives the same effect. Let him monologue and then let your players kill him with positive energy.:smallbiggrin:

[HighWater]

Don't underestimate the drama involved in NPC's NOT having cliché last words. If the NPC falls in battle, don't tell the players he's dead unless they spend actions checking up on the NPC. Have them find out he's dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH7KYmGnj40) when combat is over (so they're not distracted by the dice-rolling) (if they just ask, tell them he's "messed up" and it's difficult to see if he's still alive while you're trying to defend yourself). Sudden and complete death can be dramatic, it's part of what makes real life death so brutal that there is quite often no time to say goodbye...

If you must have final words:
- Try non-verbal communication, such as a Will or a Death Note "If you find this, it means I am no longer alive... Tell my mother I loved her... " If the NPC has foreseen a good chance of death in the near future, this note can even contain very current information...
- Contingency --> Magic Mouth (for that bit of Plot Info that really MUST be shared).
- Invoke the Power of Plot, have wounds that don't close by magic, have the body be consumed by negative energy warding off good energy, have them die from escalating CON-damage, or just tell your player that "their spirit is already departing" (rendering HP-heals useless)

As for countering Raise Dead: easy, but possibly corny approach: their spirits do not WANT to return to the mortal realm.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Most of the times my PCs overkill my BBEGs they get a free-out of turn action to say "I only wanted to be loved... X_X" and then die. None ever complained :P Seriously though, if he could speak out of turn while he is getting hit, would that help?