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View Full Version : Paying for a wizards spells at character creation.



Aerlock
2007-02-01, 01:13 PM
When creating a Wizard character with more spells than the 2 freebies at each level, how much does each extra spell cost in GP? Is it just the scribing cost or do you pay the cost for a scroll and the scribing cost? Or is this a DM call?

Thomas
2007-02-01, 01:14 PM
I'd charge the scribing cost, but I'm generous.

oriong
2007-02-01, 01:15 PM
Unless your DM rules you get free acess to another wizards spellbook the fairest way is the cost of a scroll + scribing cost.

Deus Mortus
2007-02-01, 01:18 PM
unless you get a blessed book for 1000gp then you can just ignore the scribing costs and it becomes I think either 50gp*spell level or 150*spell level, not sure...

barawn
2007-02-01, 01:34 PM
Unless your DM rules you get free acess to another wizards spellbook the fairest way is the cost of a scroll + scribing cost.

That's not the fairest way at all, unless the only place you have access to spells is a non-wizard who only sells scrolls (i.e. there's no way you can get access to a wizard's spellbook).

I usually say half the cost of a scroll, at a maximum. That's the profit for the wizard on selling a scroll. A wizard wouldn't charge more than that, as the player would just buy a scroll and scribe it, and the wizard would be out the XP cost and time for no particular reason.

edit: note that that's a maximum, mind you. Usually in the games I've played/run, the wizard who allows access to his spellbook comes to a fair agreement (work, information, exchange of spells).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-01, 02:01 PM
If you have access to another wizard's spellbook:


In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x 50 gp.

If not, you probably have pay for a scroll.


+ Scribing costs of course in both instances (unless you have a Blessed Book).

NullAshton
2007-02-01, 02:56 PM
You need to copy from another wizards spellbook, get a scroll, both of which has been said before. If you have normal spellbooks, it also costs to scribe the spell in it, which you should count against your wealth by level. Of course if you get a blessed book, and most wizards would probably have one if in the medium/high levels, it costs nothing to scribe spells in there but you still need scrolls.

Also, don't forget copying spells from scrolls renders the scroll useless.

Yakk
2007-02-01, 03:05 PM
Scroll + Scribing costs.

Finding a Wizard who trusts you enough to give access to his spellbook seems rather difficult to me.

Thomas
2007-02-01, 03:30 PM
Depends on the setting. In Faerûn, not nearly. You can just walk into any of the multitude of wizardly schools. (Of course I'd charge the PC for, say, membership in the Silverymoon college, but then they'd get all the benefits, which I think included discount spell-scribing...)

barawn
2007-02-01, 05:17 PM
Scroll + Scribing costs.

Finding a Wizard who trusts you enough to give access to his spellbook seems rather difficult to me.

Go to the guy who's selling you the scrolls. He'd rather pocket the profit from the scroll (and avoid the time and XP cost) by just having you copy the scroll while he's standing there.

(Unless the scroll-seller isn't a wizard. Then find his supplier. :smallsmile:)

That implies half-cost.

Deus Mortus
2007-02-01, 05:46 PM
Costs and procedure here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings) and here a way to cut the costs to a third, Blessed Book (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook)

Yakk
2007-02-01, 06:22 PM
Go to the guy who's selling you the scrolls. He'd rather pocket the profit from the scroll (and avoid the time and XP cost) by just having you copy the scroll while he's standing there.

(Unless the scroll-seller isn't a wizard. Then find his supplier. :smallsmile:)

That implies half-cost.

First, his spellbook is the most valueable thing he owns. Removing all of the wards on it (or telling someone else how to get around the wards) is a huge risk.

Then he has to spend the time watching you, and magically warding you against leaving. What happens if you cast a dimension door while holding onto his spellbook? Or a teleport?

barawn
2007-02-01, 06:35 PM
First, his spellbook is the most valueable thing he owns. Removing all of the wards on it (or telling someone else how to get around the wards) is a huge risk.

Adventurers have one spellbook. A wizard salesman wouldn't have one (what if a thief stole it? He's stationary, after all). If he was smart, he'd have one for each spell - they're only 15 gp, plus half the cost of copying. He'd recoup it with the second wizard that wanted to copy the spell.


What happens if you cast a dimension door while holding onto his spellbook? Or a teleport?

Presumedly, you're in a settled environment. That would be stealing, and against the law.

edit: Oh, and by the way - the standard 'recommended price' is 50 gp x level, which is the second most idiotic price-related thing in the SRD. Wizards are not going to charge 50 gp to copy a first level spell and only 25 gp for a scroll.

Saph
2007-02-01, 06:37 PM
Spell copying fee: 50gp x spell level
Scribing fee: 100gp x spell level

So the default cost, unless the DM rules otherwise, is 150gp per spell level. There are ways to get around this, but this depends on how much your DM will allow you to have done pre-game.

Wizards are strong as they are, so I don't see much reason to allow characters to avoid the scribing fee. Remember that by buying spells at character creation you're negating the time & effort costs of finding a vendor, making the Spellcraft check, and doing the copying, so 150 gp per spell level is actually a pretty good deal.

If you start with a Blessed Book, the costs drop massively, but it's unlikely that you'll be starting at that high a level.

- Saph

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 06:40 PM
I use the "scribe from another wizard's book" approach. I'd even allow "you trade some of your known spells for his", but learning spells costs money for a reason.

barawn
2007-02-01, 06:54 PM
Remember that by buying spells at character creation you're negating the time & effort costs of finding a vendor, making the Spellcraft check, and doing the copying

Wait, why would you avoid the Spellcraft check? When you fail, you fail until you get another rank in Spellcraft, so it's not like you can take 20 on it. Does it actually say somewhere that you can avoid that?


so 150 gp per spell level is actually a pretty good deal.

For high level spells, sure, but for first and second level spells it's silly. Half the cost of the scroll makes a lot more sense in my mind. It's equivalent profit for a wizard making the scroll.

For first level spells, it'd be cheaper to buy the scroll and scribe it yourself, and I don't see why a DM wouldn't let you have done that before the campaign started. Of course, all it does is cost the wizard XP and time for the equivalent money you'd offer.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-01, 07:15 PM
get the feat from the complete arcane(in the back of the book) that doubles your spells per level

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 07:19 PM
That's "spells learned per level-up", folks, not "spells you can cast per level". It's called Collegiate Wizard, and saves you a lot of fuss (if not that much gold in the long run).

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-01, 07:27 PM
What I want to know is, why wouldn't almost every wizard want that feat? Sure, you're not saving all that much gold, but some DMs won't let you buy scrolls of any spell you want, either. For one feat, you're twice as batman as you were before.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 07:32 PM
Almost every wizard would want that feat... just like, say, Quicken Spell, and a few others.

It's kind of like almost every middle-class person who can afford it wants a college education.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-01, 07:39 PM
Yah. I was just thinking about that rule of thumb that says "if you can't think of a situation where you wouldn't want this spell/feat/etc, it might be too good."

barawn
2007-02-01, 07:40 PM
What I want to know is, why wouldn't almost every wizard want that feat? Sure, you're not saving all that much gold, but some DMs won't let you buy scrolls of any spell you want, either. For one feat, you're twice as batman as you were before.

Thief wizards. The ones who gain spells by stealing spellbooks. :smallbiggrin:

Not used nearly enough in campaigns...

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 07:47 PM
I always use the Collegiate Wizard option for wizards who don't take a familiar (and then I drop the skill bonuses).

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 07:54 PM
Yah. I was just thinking about that rule of thumb that says "if you can't think of a situation where you wouldn't want this spell/feat/etc, it might be too good."

That's not that great a rule of thumb; it covers some pretty basic things. F'r ex, Weapon Finesse for rogues. Is that too good? No, it's just fine as is. It shouldn't have the BAB requirement, I'd even say. Power Attack. Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for archer characters--what archer doesn't have those? and so on.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-01, 08:02 PM
It's certainly not a rule that applies to things WotC publishes themselves, no :smallwink:

I think they intended it for homebrew type stuff, esp. spells.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 08:14 PM
So anything that WotC produces is almighty and holy and must be proven guilty (if at all), yet homebrew is made in Baator and must be proved innocent (if at all)? :)

Shazzbaa
2007-02-01, 09:03 PM
So anything that WotC produces is almighty and holy and must be proven guilty (if at all), yet homebrew is made in Baator and must be proved innocent (if at all)? :)
Naww...

It's kind of like fan-fiction: if you're writing the original story, you can get away with the characters being a little bit too powerful or too angsty; they have to be really bad for your readers to scream "Mary Sue." But if you're writing fan-fiction of said story, you have to be way careful not to make the fan-character too powerful or too much more powerful than existing characters, or else you've made a Mary Sue character, and no one will give your fanfic the time of day.

WotC stuff is cannon except where there is clearly a problem. Homebrew stuff, however, is "fanfiction," and can't be more overpowered than the cannon characters, or else it just looks bad.

...Well, perhaps that was a weird analogy.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 09:05 PM
That works :)

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-01, 09:44 PM
So anything that WotC produces is almighty and holy and must be proven guilty (if at all), yet homebrew is made in Baator and must be proved innocent (if at all)? :)
Well, this is according to WotC themselves, remember :smallbiggrin:

And yeah, I think Shazzbaa put it pretty well, too.

Takamari
2007-02-01, 11:54 PM
Wow...You are all mean DMs. My DMs usually wave the scribing fee for wizards. A fighter has to pay for his stuff once...A wizard has to find the spells, pay for them, then pay even more to scribe...and that more isn't so little.

Shwepie
2007-02-02, 04:16 AM
Considering most PCs are trained in the art of wizardy by someone. You could assume that someone gave to access to some of his favorate low level spells. So I'd say scribing cost and no more that 2d4 extra spells.

Saph
2007-02-02, 06:22 AM
Wait, why would you avoid the Spellcraft check? When you fail, you fail until you get another rank in Spellcraft, so it's not like you can take 20 on it. Does it actually say somewhere that you can avoid that?

No, but it's a hassle to keep track of, so most DMs let you get away with it.


For high level spells, sure, but for first and second level spells it's silly. Half the cost of the scroll makes a lot more sense in my mind. It's equivalent profit for a wizard making the scroll.

Nope, sorry. Scribing a spell from a scroll destroys the scroll.

From the SRD:

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

THAT's why they have the 50 gp per spell level copying fee.

Okay, yes, if you're penny-pinching, you can save a tiny bit of money by purchasing first-level spells in scroll form, bringing your net costs down to 125 gold per spell rather than 150 gold per spell, but for second-level spells and up, you lose large amounts of money by buying scrolls instead of just copying them.

Remember that for wizards, finding new spells and the money to afford scribing them is one of the main reasons to go adventuring. If you let them do it too easily, it takes away their biggest and most obvious adventure hook. Besides, wizards are very powerful, and wizards with lots of spells are even more powerful. They shouldn't get that for free.

- Saph

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-02, 07:44 AM
Saph, I think his point is this: if you go to a wizard, and say "hey, can I learn some of your spells?" i'ts cheaper for HIM to charge you 1/2 scroll cost plus maybe 10%, and let you use his spellbook, rather than scribing a scroll for you, and charging you full price for the scroll. Because it costs him gold and XP to make the scroll. So y letting you use his book instead, he's making the same (or slightly more) profit, and can do a lot more business because you're saving a lot of money by not buying scrolls.

Saph
2007-02-02, 08:47 AM
Saph, I think his point is this: if you go to a wizard, and say "hey, can I learn some of your spells?" i'ts cheaper for HIM to charge you 1/2 scroll cost plus maybe 10%, and let you use his spellbook, rather than scribing a scroll for you, and charging you full price for the scroll. Because it costs him gold and XP to make the scroll. So y letting you use his book instead, he's making the same (or slightly more) profit, and can do a lot more business because you're saving a lot of money by not buying scrolls.

. . . I don't follow.

The original question was "How much should it cost to get wizard spells at character creation?", and my answer was "150 gp per spell level." I.e., you assume that a wizard DOES let you copy from his spellbook, and the SRD-listed price for that is 50 gp per spell level.

Barawn and others said: "why don't they just let you copy from a scroll?" The answer is: because that destroys the scroll.

So the answer is the same as before: 150 gp per spell level, with a very slight discount of 25 gp for first-level spells.

- Saph

barawn
2007-02-02, 09:18 AM
No, but it's a hassle to keep track of, so most DMs let you get away with it.

Er? Roll once at full Spellcraft. If you fail, roll again at -1. It's not that hard. Ignoring it can really, really make wizards overpowered as they don't need to take enough Spellcraft ranks.



So the answer is the same as before: 150 gp per spell level, with a very slight discount of 25 gp for first-level spells.


It's the first level spells I'm talking about. No one would ever pay 50 gp for the right to copy a first level spell. You'd buy the scroll (only 25 gp) and scribe it that way.

Except, from the salesman's point of view, he would be better off letting you copy the spell from his spellbook for half the price of the scroll. It's equal profit for him (12.5 gp), but it doesn't cost him the time or the experience.

Saph
2007-02-02, 10:46 AM
Er? Roll once at full Spellcraft. If you fail, roll again at -1. It's not that hard. Ignoring it can really, really make wizards overpowered as they don't need to take enough Spellcraft ranks.

Well, all the DMs I've played under tend to ignore it, but yes, strictly speaking, you should. But all the wizards I've seen max out Spellcraft and take at least five ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, anyway.


It's the first level spells I'm talking about. No one would ever pay 50 gp for the right to copy a first level spell. You'd buy the scroll (only 25 gp) and scribe it that way.

Think of the extra 25 gp as a stupidity tax for not comparison shopping beforehand. :)

- Saph

barawn
2007-02-02, 11:11 AM
Well, all the DMs I've played under tend to ignore it, but yes, strictly speaking, you should. But all the wizards I've seen max out Spellcraft and take at least five ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, anyway.

Exactly, which means in general you can nail the Spellcraft check by taking 10. It's only when there's a player who doesn't that I make them roll Spellcraft. My last wizard couldn't afford to max Spellcraft (he couldn't afford anything in Spellcraft until 6th level, actually) and it was a minor pain. Not as bad as you might think, though. The spells per level still puts you ahead of a sorceror, if memory serves.


Think of the extra 25 gp as a stupidity tax for not comparison shopping beforehand.

Heh. I'm usually able to convince the DM that the wizard would prefer to just let me copy it out of the spellbook for half scroll cost. Especially if the wizard's got a bit in Charisma (or Intimidate :smallsmile:).

Indon
2007-02-02, 11:20 AM
Saph, I think his point is this: if you go to a wizard, and say "hey, can I learn some of your spells?" i'ts cheaper for HIM to charge you 1/2 scroll cost plus maybe 10%, and let you use his spellbook, rather than scribing a scroll for you, and charging you full price for the scroll. Because it costs him gold and XP to make the scroll. So y letting you use his book instead, he's making the same (or slightly more) profit, and can do a lot more business because you're saving a lot of money by not buying scrolls.

I'm pretty sure there's a penalty involved in using another wizards' spellbook, because each individual personalizes their stuff heavily.

At least, there was in 2'nd ed.

Yakk
2007-02-02, 11:28 AM
Have the player do a bargain check to see if they can get the wizard to lower his or her prices.

Practically, no wizard who has a copy of wall of iron should ever sell a scroll or let anyone copy from their spellbook. They already have (under D&D economics) an infinite gold fountain.

barawn
2007-02-02, 12:01 PM
I'm pretty sure there's a penalty involved in using another wizards' spellbook, because each individual personalizes their stuff heavily.

At least, there was in 2'nd ed.

Not for copying - just for using.

I almost forgot - if your Spellcraft is high enough to ignore the DC 15 check by taking 10 for preparing from another's spellbook, and you're high enough level, you should be able to convince your DM that you can just buy a spellbook directly from a wizard who's selling scrolls at a cost of 100 gp/full page. The DM may force the chosen spells upon you, but it's a pretty hefty cost advantage, so it's worth it.

(The SRD gives a price for full spellbooks as 5000 gp: obviously, that means someone buys them. With the standard "sell for half", that implies a full spellbook should be 10k GP).


Practically, no wizard who has a copy of wall of iron should ever sell a scroll or let anyone copy from their spellbook. They already have (under D&D economics) an infinite gold fountain.

Yup. Hence the reason I changed the material cost of that spell to 500 gp.

Yakk
2007-02-02, 12:28 PM
Not for copying - just for using.

I almost forgot - if your Spellcraft is high enough to ignore the DC 15 check by taking 10 for preparing from another's spellbook, and you're high enough level, you should be able to convince your DM that you can just buy a spellbook directly from a wizard who's selling scrolls at a cost of 100 gp/full page. The DM may force the chosen spells upon you, but it's a pretty hefty cost advantage, so it's worth it.

(The SRD gives a price for full spellbooks as 5000 gp: obviously, that means someone buys them. With the standard "sell for half", that implies a full spellbook should be 10k GP).

That gives the scriber no profit margin.

The cost of scribing 1 page is 100 gp, plus labour. And then there is a profit margin on top of that.

Practically, it probably works out to something like 150 gp per spell level, except you don't have to spend the time yourself.

Now, the cost of spending time writing out spellbooks should be factored into things. How about 0.3% of your starting XP per day spent on profitable non-adventure-based tasks?

barawn
2007-02-02, 12:51 PM
That gives the scriber no profit margin.

Copying books (from your own) is half-cost, per SRD.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-02, 03:36 PM
If you actually buy someone elses spellbook, there is a method to "master" the book, basically learning the "code" the other wizard used for his book, so you can cast spells from it normally. The DC is difficult(I think it was 20+level of the highest spell in the book), but it could be worth it. This was also in the Complete Arcane, and could be very useful.