Warblade Maneuvers and Stances

[Cavir]

I have started playing my first ToB char, a Warblade starting at 1st level. I've glanced at Swordsage and Crusader but I'm focusing on Warblade first. I am making use of several handbooks, but I'm not going for high-op.

I made a chart for maneuvers and stances that also looks at the number you can know for each level. I did the chart based on maximizing the highest level stance and maneuver possible except for leaving 1 maneuver per level (which can be tweaked, but it is a starting point).


Warblade
CharLev ManKnown Readied Stances MaxLev ManKnownByLev StanceByLev 1/3/5/7/8
1 3 3 1 1 3 1
2 4 3 1 1 4 1
3 5 3 1 2 4/1 1
4 5 4 2 2 3/2 2
5 6 4 2 3 3/2/12
6 6 4 2 3 2/2/2 2
7 7 4 2 4 2/2/2/1 2
8 7 4 2 4 1/2/2/2 2
9 8 4 2 5 1/2/2/2/1 2
10 8 5 3 5 1/1/2/2/2 2/0/1
11 9 5 3 6 1/1/2/2/2/1 2/0/1
12 9 5 3 6 1/1/1/2/2/2 2/0/1
13 10 5 37 1/1/1/2/2/2/1 2/0/1
14 10 5 3 7 1/1/1/1/2/2/2 2/0/1
15 11 6 3 8 1/1/1/1/2/2/2/1 2/0/1
16 11 6 4 8 1/1/1/1/1/2/2/2 2/0/1/0/1
17 [/td] 12 6 4 9 1/1/1/1/1/2/2/2/1 2/0/1/0/1
18 12 6 49 1/1/1/1/1/1/2/2/2 2/0/1/0/1
19 13 6 4 9 1/1/1/1/1/1/2/2/3 2/0/1/0/1
20 137 4 9 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/2/4 2/0/1/0/1


By the time you can pick a 3rd or 7th level stance you already have the option to pick a higher level stance. Am I missing something with Warblade stances? Is it common for people to take Martial Stance as a feat (assuming starting at 1st level) at some point(s)? Or even to take Martial Study and Stance to branch into another discipline? I haven't seen any handbooks dive much into those possibilities. I realize there will always be exceptions for specific builds, but I'm looking at it from a general view at this point and playing from 1st level. It looks like taking those feats would be very useful. They should be on the bonus feat list.

Looking briefly at the others for comparison, the StanceByLevel for Swordsage would be 2/1/1/1/1 (8th not til 20th level) and Crusader is 2/1/0/1/0. I guess when you look across all three classes it is more balanced but maybe the chart will help others and my feat questions remain.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, the stance progression is a little odd. It doesn't seem to mesh well between the level the stances are available and the levels the classes actually grant a stance known.

[HammeredWharf]

Yes, you're right. Warblade's stance progression is weird like that. You could ask your DM to houserule it, take two levels of another class or just live with it. Unfortunately, the last option is alright, because Warblade's third and seventh level stances are rather bad outside of some specialized builds.

[AmberVael]

It's worth noting that there is only one 7th level stance in the entire book, all other stances fall at levels 1, 3, 5, and 8. As such, I'm inclined to consider the 7th level stance a mistake.

Pretty much all the stance progressions in the book are just done terribly. Crusader never gets any 8th level stances and doesn't get its 3rd level stance until level 8. Swordsage can't get an 8th level stance until level 20. Warblade misses out on getting a 3rd level stance due to getting its second stance just one level early.

In short... this is an area that was done incredibly poorly, and generally should be houseruled into a more sensible form.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, I've houseruled the Warblade to pick up stances at 1, 5, 10 and 15. That's the only sensible thing imho.

[Cavir]

It's worth noting that there is only one 7th level stance in the entire book, all other stances fall at levels 1, 3, 5, and 8. As such, I'm inclined to consider the 7th level stance a mistake.
[...]
In short... this is an area that was done incredibly poorly, and generally should be houseruled into a more sensible form.

Hmm, I hadn't scrutinized the higher stances yet. Thanks for pointing that out. We were warned the game will may have a high death rate and with me being a high init melee type I know there is a target on my shield so too much advanced planning may end up being a waste.

[Ruethgar]

One word: Bloodlines. Just skip ahead a little bit in the progression with a major bloodline for +4 martial adept levels.

[Keld Denar]

Your maneuvers known by level assumes that you are always trading the one one one level before for one level higher. This isn't so. You can always trade up any maneuver for one of the highest level you know. Thus, going from 9 to 10 could look like: 0/2/2/2/2 instead of 1/1/2/2/2, if you'd rather not keep any 1st level maneuvers in favor of more 2nd levels (which isn't always the case, there are some great 1st level maneuvers like Moment of Perfect Mind).