Most effective way for pc's to kill a deity?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I'm looking for a way to slay or demote a greater deity, preferably non-Epic Handbook. In this case Shar, the goddess of darkness and loss from the Forgotten Realms setting. Any advice?

Thanks in Advance

[docnessuno]

I'm looking for a way to slay or demote a greater deity, preferably non-Epic Handbook. In this case Shar, the goddess of darkness and loss from the Forgotten Realms setting. Any advice?

Thanks in Advance

Go back in time to the "Time of Troubles"
Locate and kill Shar while it has no divine powers.

Still hard as hell, but at least you would stand a minimal chance.

Otherwise, adventure in the realm of theoretical optimization.

[Brookshw]

Demoting a greater diety even one divine rank would require a massscale loss of belief across multiple worlds and planes. Probably not entirely feasible.

Killing one....depends on your DM. Is he playing them like gods or weakly statted bags of hit points? If the former, work with him and discuss, if the latter, without epic tough. Plan your battle field, all the protection you can muster, and prepare to hit fast and hard. Gods generally SHOULD have swarms of petitioners, powerful servants, etc. You're DM may remove all the trappings of a god and let you get a clear shot, but otherwise just getting to the god should be a massive challenge. Maybe try to find a way to get them to come to you but with their ability to see into the future you're not exactly in a good situation as far as that goes.

[MadGreenSon]

Short of time travel, the only other way to weaken/kill a deity in FR would be to either starve them of worship or cause them to be absorbed by another deity.

Either way, you'll be playing the long game, conspiracy-style to get it done. Diplomancy is the way to go, but you'll have to be subtle as to the origins of this memetic warfare or you'll get smote.

Might be a good idea to have hideouts isolated from the Shadow Weave or even on Planes that are hostile to Shar in general to do your plotting. Also, stay out of her portfolio as much as possible, this will require some fancy maneuvering as you're going to have to keep secrets without actually keeping secrets as Secrets are a part of her domain.

But deities in Faerun are uniquely vulnerable to memetic warfare. It's the only non-epic solution that occurs to me. If starved of worship a god can weaken and die there.

[Curmudgeon]

Obviously you need one of these:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/376781221_4972264462.jpg

[Erik Vale]

Diplomancy another god into doing it. You can get in contact with one using improved familiar/lesser planar binding/sacrifice.
Then using the half-elf regional feat to use diplomacy as a standard action [at penalty] and skill boosting cheese, ask in your nicest voice for the deity to kill Shar. Try AO, since that way your making a non-responsive overgod smite a god for you.

The trouble is, he knows you will try to kill him 6 months in advance, so preemptive smiting will occur should he believe you can do it, so act like bumbling buffoons. Except deliberately pretending to be buffoons would be something Shar would know about, so if it would work, preemptive smiting if possible in some manner, if it wouldn't, maybe no harm done as Shar ignores you.

Oh, and AO may retaliate, and then restore Shar...
In fact, if you kill a god, just expect divine retaliation flat out, and know gods can [and do/will] play the long game.

[Sian]

as Forgotten Realms Deities are very dependent on prayers, arranging a genocide against Shar's clergy and her dependents is the easiest way, if morally questionable, and certain to make Shar sit up and target you with everything she have to her disposal (including putting out contracts to other gods to assassinate you and kill you even more just for the sake of it)

[Drachasor]

Yeah, I agree with eliminating worshipers.

[cakellene]

I see no feasible way to do this without being a higher rank deity yourself, portfolio sense and salient abilities makes this an egotistical version of suicide by cop.

[Rebel7284]

Ice Assasin?

[Necroticplague]

Mindrape a ruler into waging a holy war against the Shar worshipers. Then sit back, maybe mindrape a couple more people into acting as pawns, spot-mop up some more isolated enclaves yourselves. This may be evil, but its way better than trying to kill gods directly.

[Captnq]

Lose all faith become an Ur-Priest
Find the sword houndsbane.
Find Kezef the Chaos Hound.
Tell him you will personally destroy houndsbane if he does you a little favor.

Find the skull of the void.
Kill the multiple colonies of mind flayers there.

Go to Thay.
Fight your way into thaymont.
Find the Thakorsil's Seat. transport it to The skull of the void.

Use Kezef to chase Shar to The Skull of the void by promising her the sword.

Force her into the chair, bind her, feed her to Kezef, then crash the Skull of the void into something with a bit of weight to it, like... a Moon.

[Captnq]

Unleash Pandorym.

He'll put an end to Shar. To war. Poverty. Suffering.
He'll take all your pain away.

[Ravens_cry]

Cross the streams. :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

Have a less-than-competent DM.

Seriously, though, as others have mentioned, there is no "immediate" way to depower a deity unless another, more powerful deity gets involved. And as a rule, they really, really aren't going to do that, because - as others have mentioned - deities play the "long game," planning empires and creating networks of influence eons in advance. You're not going to get a sudden leg-up on something like that.

Eliminating followers is an option, but it's an option with a rather obvious drawback. First, it will make an enemy of every worshiper of Shar, along with basically everyone they know, and probably quite a number of nations who don't take kindly to serial killings. Second, it will make an enemy of Shar, straight-up. Deities become aware of basically everything when their worshipers mention their names, and I guarantee you that they'll all die with Shar's name on their lips. Unless you have some DM fiat means of avoiding a deity's awareness, that means Shar knows you're out there, killing her dudes, and she won't be happy about it. More than that, other gods will probably be unhappy about it, too - they tend to form alliances for mutual benefit, and when heroes start killing off one's followers, the others get a little skittish.

Killing a god is a rather severe option, but possible at epic levels if your DM plays gods stupidly. I say "plays gods stupidly" because you're dealing with a being of incomprehensibly vast power, who has had that power since before your soul was even forged in the depths of the infinite, who can see into the past and future and knows you plan to kill her and likely how, who knows all of your strengths and weaknesses, and who certainly isn't going to make it a fair fight. And you, a lowly mortal with an irritating tendency to die when your time comes and an annoyingly linear perspective of chronology, expect to kill that? Good luck.

And getting another god to do it? Good luck with that, too. Even with outrageous Diplomacy rolls, these are beings who plan their alliances and maneuvers in painstaking detail centuries in advance. Then some mortal comes along and asks them to kill Shar, right now, just because? Oh, yes, let me abandon my centuries of planning and enrage Ao so that some silly mortals will be satisfied. That's cute. That's not happening.

The short version is that, despite being statted, D&D gods are more like set pieces than monsters; they exist in the background, weaving events together, and although they occasionally make an appearance, you're really not in a position to impact them in any meaningful way. So if you plan to kill/demote Shar because, "Hey, guys, it'll be fun," I'm glad that your campaign has run well, and I think you'll enjoy your new one. I suggest GURPS for a change of pace.

Now, if you need to kill/demote Shar because the DM said so, that's another story. Suddenly, you have options. Three, specifically. The first, the DM is setting you up for failure. He wants you to fight a god and lose. That's a jerky thing to do. Second, the DM is setting you up for success. He wants you to fight a DM and plans for you to win. Like the first option, this is a railroad, but it's a railroad with nice scenery, so sit back and enjoy the ride. Third, the DM is going to let your actions decide the outcome. Which is basically like the first option, but with the illusion of choice. If he plays Shar's abilities to their fullest, you will lose, it's not even a question, unless you have Tippy-esque levels of cheese.

Think about that GURPS I mentioned.

[mangosta71]

I'm reminded of Glen Cook's The Instrumentalities of the Night series. Possibly because I'm going through them again, as the fourth (and final?) book will be released on Tuesday. From the back cover of the first book (paperback edition):
On a mission in the Holy Land, the young Praman warrior Else is attacked by a creature of the Dark - in effect, a minor god. Too ignorant to know that he can never prevail over such a thing, he fights it and wins, and in so doing, sets the terrors of the night against him.

So I'm imagining a preemptive retributive strike spanning space and time. And even if you succeed, bands of other gods (possibly including the ones the PCs follow) forming alliances to eliminate the threat you now pose. Killing a god is going to get you all kinds of unwelcome attention.

[Sian]

while it doesn't happen with anywhere near regularity, god slaying aren't a foreign thing in Forgotten Realms, even outside Times of Trouble ... There is more than a couple of gods (or high ranking demons) that have been killed by mortals around ... Moander springs to mind and Bane was killed as well (he got better through and returned) ... and memory tells me that theres at least a couple more.

That said, Shar might very well be the strongest god around (short of Ao) and as the creation myths says that she and Selûne are the oldest gods in town, i highly doubt that she'll drop dead because players want it.

Really though, if looking for an even more in depth answer for how to handle it, I suggest looking on a FR specific board about it (Candlekeep springs to mind)

[Bonzai]

Play through "Anauroch: The Empire of Shade". I believe one of the rewards for completion was knocking Shar down a peg. I played a Truenamer through the whole Shadowdale/Comyr/Anauroch trilogy. By the end of it, he was convinced that he needed to finish the job and kill Shar, just so all the friggen gods would stop bothering him and asking him to solve their problems for them. Campaign ended, but I always thought it was amusing role play.

[Captnq]

Okay, Having read the other replies, I think this needs some clarity.

Gods are not set pieces. They are gods. They make mistakes and become complacent. They can be killed. It just takes work.

First step is to metagame. Specifically, you need to know the rules the DM is using. Get him to spell them out. Research them ICly. For example, if Red Fel is your DM, you will obviously fail. He's already decided that. You will be railroaded into failure, no matter what.

If you DM is playing the game CORRECTLY, that involved following internal logic. You are not doomed to fail, if the DM follows the rules. What are the rules? Ask your DM to spell them out. For example:

In my Forgotten realms, Ao is in charge. He's the overgod. He's a special kind of god. He advanced to 20th level god, was contacted by the 6th dimensional beings that created the universe, and decided to take the quest to become a 6th dimensional being himself.

He gave up his god-like power, infused it into his home dimension, became a mortal, then fought his way BACK up to being a god again, just to prove how bad ass he was.

He cheated.

The overgods noticed he cheated and said, "You fail." and now Ao continues to try and figure out a way to ascend to a god-like state where he will transcend the very multiverse itself.

In the meantime, he's powerful as well. He got him home dimension back (forgotten realms) and now continues his quest to transcend all of reality. To that end, he moved his home plane to the "bottom" of the multiverse, where if you screw up a plane shift to the prime material, the "default" is now him home plane.

Then he made the realms. The reason why there are seismic shifts in reality every once in a while (Godsfall, 2nd edition to 3rd edition) is that Ao continues his quest for ascension. To that end, he plays out his game with the one realm in the universe with more gods per worshiper then anywhere else. Why? Can't tell you, my players read this forum.

Anyrate, Ao has set down "rules" for the gods. It stops them from just flattening the mortal plane. I worked out these rules. One of the rules is called "exceptions" If a god chooses to directly interfere with the mortal world, another god, usually an enemy, of equal or greater power, gets an "exception" as well. Ao keeps track and hands them out as needed. So no god gets too cocky about directly changing the mortal plane.

I also have rules on god conversations, God levels, god salient abilities, blah blah blah.

Because I have rules, the players can learn them then work out ways to get around them. Because that's the perk of being a mortal, Ao isn't riding your ass. In fact, the PCs have had the option to become gods and said, "Screw you. No WAY I'm taking THAT crappy job."

Fighting a god in one on one combat is BAD. A true god manifests with his god levels, there is no contest, that is true. But there are ways to get around it. Access to artifacts, drawing power upon concepts and locations or junctures at specific times, and other means.

I know the rules, the players Don't. But they learn them, then exploit them.

If your DM is just going to jerk your chain and keep moving the goal post, there's no point in trying.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Shar is the oldest, wisest of the FR gods except Ao. She is also a Greater Deity of Secrets, meaning she automatically knows every secret eighteen weeks before and after. Plus, she's a girl - and a rather bitchy one at that.

Your secret goal is to kill her? She knew that before you did.
Your secret plan is actually going along? She's had weeks to prepare against it.
You are secreting yourself away in the domain of a rival deity? She smites you before you can enter because she knew weeks in advance that you'd enter.



Basically, Shar is absolutely the worst deity you could think of going up against. There's no way you could actually deceive her or surprise her -none whatsoever- and overpowering her is so unlikely it's practically impossible. Even Pun-Pun loses before she kills him weeks before he becomes Pun-Pun.

[cakellene]

Red Fel wouldn't be railroading, that is just playing a deity remotely intelligently.

[Tanuki Tales]

If you DM is playing the game CORRECTLY

And what makes your way the One True Way? :smallconfused:

[Red Fel]

Red Fel wouldn't be railroading, that is just playing a deity remotely intelligently.

Thank you.

And I'll acknowledge that Cap makes some very solid points. The gods are playing a much more elaborate game than mortals are, and while they get lots of awesome powers, they are subject to much more stringent rules. PCs who learn those rules can have a distinct advantage, at least relative to PCs who don't.

But even then, there are limits. Even though the Rebels knew the exact location of the Death Star's singular weak point, it took the son of a legendary Jedi tapping into the Force to strike it accurately. In this example, Shar is the Death Star, and your PCs are, in all likelihood, not Luke Skywalker.

Taking it a step further, Cap's suggestion would create the potential to kill or replace a god, I admit that. However, looking over it, I can't help but feel that part of it is native to Cap's game. If your DM has adopted a similar position, that deityhood is something to which anyone can aspire, that Ao plays games with his pantheon, and that being a god is a 9-to-5, then yes, I think Cap's points are probably more valid than my own. Similarly, if your DM plays gods as little more than stat blocks, I think you can absolutely kill, depower or replace one.

But if your DM plays gods intelligently, as beings of inscrutable power who are tapped into and draw strength from the fundamental forces of the universe, then you're picking a very, very bad fight. As Belial points out, you can't keep a secret from a being who is secrets. That's not just what she deals with, she is basically the confluence of the very cosmic notion of secrecy. You're not hiding anything from her.

I also disagree with the "the gods are complacent" determination. I think that's certainly one way to play deities in your games, and if your DM plays complacent or careless deities, killing them off is certainly an option. But I see deities like major political movers - each action is calculated and cautious, each deity aware of how his or her actions will influence, please, or enrage other members of the pantheon. It's an elaborate and near-constant game of maneuvering, influence, and treachery, with every single deity acting as a counterbalance to the powers of any one. They aren't complacent, in my view - they're constantly in motion, on guard for threats and on watch for opportunities. And when you're a paranoid and borderline-omniscient being, are you even going to allow mortals a chance to distract you from the big picture?

Think of an epic-level Wizard. He has every contingency in the book. He never leaves his secured sanctum demiplane in person, instead using a variety of plane shifting and astral tricks, or intermediaries. He controls every opportunity to approach him, and manipulates scenarios in his favor. He scries on anyone he has ever known, or ever wronged, or who has ever wronged him, to prepare for an (in his mind) inevitable assault on his power base. He is literally prepared for anything.

Now imagine adding actual omniscience, salient divine abilities, and a few thousand years of experience and power to that. That's what your players intend to face.

[NEO|Phyte]

Teleport a Holy sword into their heart? Though that probably only works on Tiamat.

[MadGreenSon]

Well... There's always Farslayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264580). But getting the DM to open up that can of worms would be even worse than just leaving the situation as it stands, so...

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Well... There's always Farslayer. But getting the DM to open up that can of worms would be even worse than just leaving the situation as it stands, so...

Not there isn't. Shar time stops. She moves next to Farslayer and holds it from the hilt. Time resumes and she casts twin celerity or similar effect. While still holding the sword she speaks the name of the previous wielder and teleports away, dropping it. The previous wielder dies horribly.

Alternatively, she turns into a swarm and lets Farslayer hit her. It's not as if the sword can kill swarms - they're immune to any effect that targets a limited number of creatures. She then reverts, picks up the sword and flings it back.

Alternatively, she teleports every so often so the sword can never reach her. It's not as if she has a limit on how often she does so and she has many ways to make it into a free action.

Alternatively, she uses Sunder-and-Disjoin through some immediate action tricks. This ability can destroy artifacts even better than disjunction can.




Last but not least, you do not want to start the artifact game with a Greater Deity. They can craft artifacts as if they were magic items so if you go for Farslayer, Shar will make a copy of Shieldbreaker - several weeks before you even pick Farslayer up. She personally created an entire weave of magic after all - what's a little artifact before that?

[Sith_Happens]

Shar is the oldest, wisest of the FR gods except Ao. She is also a Greater Deity of Secrets, meaning she automatically knows every secret eighteen weeks before and after. Plus, she's a girl - and a rather bitchy one at that.

Your secret goal is to kill her? She knew that before you did.
Your secret plan is actually going along? She's had weeks to prepare against it.
You are secreting yourself away in the domain of a rival deity? She smites you before you can enter because she knew weeks in advance that you'd enter.

Basically, Shar is absolutely the worst deity you could think of going up against. There's no way you could actually deceive her or surprise her -none whatsoever- and overpowering her is so unlikely it's practically impossible. Even Pun-Pun loses before she kills him weeks before he becomes Pun-Pun.

Actually, according to Faiths and Pantheons, Shar's portfolio sense is hilariously narrow:


Portfolio Sense: Shar senses any act of treachery or nihilism that takes place under cover of darkness eighteen tendays before it happens and retains the sensation for eighteen tendays after the event occurs.

So just plan to do everything, including the planning itself just to be sure, outside in the daytime and you're good.

[MadGreenSon]

Actually, according to Faiths and Pantheons, Shar's portfolio sense is hilariously narrow:

Portfolio Sense: Shar senses any act of treachery or nihilism that takes place under cover of darkness eighteen tendays before it happens and retains the sensation for eighteen tendays after the event occurs.

So just plan to do everything, including the planning itself just to be sure, outside in the daytime and you're good.

Well... That's just neat, now isn't it? That puts all kinds of options back on the table, including memetic warfare to weaken/subsume her.

FR deities are sometimes deliberately shot in the knee optimization-wise and it seems like Ao does it on purpose.

This is a good example.

[ImperatorV]

Ice Assassin seems like a good bet, but for that you need something from his body (piece of hair, toenail, ect.) Sounds like a plot hook to me.

[cakellene]

Actually, according to Faiths and Pantheons, Shar's portfolio sense is hilariously narrow:



So just plan to do everything, including the planning itself just to be sure, outside in the daytime and you're good.

Every deity foresees threats that would affect their portfolio, which include them dying. Therefore, portfolio sense would warn them regardless of how narrow scope the portfolio is.

[MadGreenSon]

Ice Assassin seems like a good bet, but for that you need something from his body (piece of hair, toenail, ect.) Sounds like a plot hook to me.

You only shot at finding any bits of Shar would be to check out the area where she and Sune threw down for the fate of Sharess during the Time of Troubles.
Even then, I wouldn't bet my last platinum on the plan working.

That's another thing people forget when they're pumping up how badass Shar is. When it mattered, the goddess of love and beauty kicked her ass. Time of Trouble or not, her ageless wisdom and eons of experience meant exactly nothing when Big Red came for her while they were avatar'd.

And what has Shar done to get revenge since? Nothing.

Maybe Sune is the one everyone should be wary of.

[docnessuno]

That's another thing people forget when they're pumping up how badass Shar is. When it mattered, the goddess of love and beauty kicked her ass. Time of Trouble or not, her ageless wisdom and eons of experience meant exactly nothing when Big Red came for her while they were avatar'd.

And what has Shar done to get revenge since? Nothing.

Possibly because Shar was concentrating on slaying another deity, acquiring his portfolio domains and worshipers.

[MadGreenSon]

Possibly because Shar was concentrating on slaying another deity, acquiring his portfolio domains and worshipers.

That's what she'd like you to think. :smallbiggrin:

Hatch your plans in broad daylight, on a nice hillside, maybe with a picnic lunch. Do it without malice or spite. Do it because it needs to be done for the good of all people.

Find ways to turn her worshipers away from the faith (The Shadovar shouldn't be too hard, they're worshipers only because it benefits them, for instance. No hard commitment there). Whittle away at her power in other ways, there are lots of ways to put the Shadow Weave in check, for instance, which can start turning people away from that.

Just don't be too obvious, plan in the open in daylight. You may have a chance.

[Tanuki Tales]

You only shot at finding any bits of Shar would be to check out the area where she and Sune threw down for the fate of Sharess during the Time of Troubles.
Even then, I wouldn't bet my last platinum on the plan working.

That's another thing people forget when they're pumping up how badass Shar is. When it mattered, the goddess of love and beauty kicked her ass. Time of Trouble or not, her ageless wisdom and eons of experience meant exactly nothing when Big Red came for her while they were avatar'd.

And what has Shar done to get revenge since? Nothing.

Maybe Sune is the one everyone should be wary of.

Well, it was mentioned that only a deity can fight a deity.

[MadGreenSon]

Well, it was mentioned that only a deity can fight a deity.

That was then, maybe. After Ao made them dependent on their worshipers for power, public opinion can fight a deity as well.

[afroakuma]

Actually, according to Faiths and Pantheons, Shar's portfolio sense is hilariously narrow:

So just plan to do everything, including the planning itself just to be sure, outside in the daytime and you're good.

Destroying a deity, or even threatening one, would qualify as an act of nihilism. Trying to destroy Shar would involve coming under darkness at some point in the act; she herself would be surrounded by it. By definition she's got six months' warning of any threat on her life.

[MadGreenSon]

Destroying a deity, or even threatening one, would qualify as an act of nihilism. Trying to destroy Shar would involve coming under darkness at some point in the act; she herself would be surrounded by it. By definition she's got six months' warning of any threat on her life.

That might be true. However you can get around that by going after her power, not her existence. Weaken her enough and she either becomes irrelevant or other forces stronger than she is at that point will take her out or absorb her (like Mystra).

Weakening the embodiment of nihilism is not an inherently nihilistic act

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Faiths and Pantheons is outdated. The rules in Deities and Demigods supercede it and say that a Greater Deity senses all actions in their portofolio regardless of how many individuals they affect. Shar's Portofolio in FRCS is night, darkness, loss, secrets, caverns, dungeons, the underdark. So she will know what you're trying to keep secret - before you know it yourself.


2) A significant portion of the entire Pantheon and their followers and minions works against Shar already. One more insignificant near-epic character isn't going to make a difference when greater deities and thousands of epic creatures/mages did not. Remember, Shar managed to orchestrate the murder of freaking Mystra within Mystra's own domain using another greater deity as her pawn. She didn't succeed in every one of her goals but Mystra is still dead and the Forgotten Realms suffered a class-2 Armageddon as a result. Shar's and every other dark god's following significantly increased from those events, it did not diminish.



In short, your character must find something, some way to act, that a significant portion of an entire world's worth of epic characters and deities has not yet found. It is not impossible per se - but you're not doing it without major DM cooperation and help.

[Seto]

I also disagree with the "the gods are complacent" determination. I think that's certainly one way to play deities in your games, and if your DM plays complacent or careless deities, killing them off is certainly an option. But I see deities like major political movers - each action is calculated and cautious, each deity aware of how his or her actions will influence, please, or enrage other members of the pantheon. It's an elaborate and near-constant game of maneuvering, influence, and treachery, with every single deity acting as a counterbalance to the powers of any one. They aren't complacent, in my view - they're constantly in motion, on guard for threats and on watch for opportunities. And when you're a paranoid and borderline-omniscient being, are you even going to allow mortals a chance to distract you from the big picture?

Think of an epic-level Wizard. He has every contingency in the book. He never leaves his secured sanctum demiplane in person, instead using a variety of plane shifting and astral tricks, or intermediaries. He controls every opportunity to approach him, and manipulates scenarios in his favor. He scries on anyone he has ever known, or ever wronged, or who has ever wronged him, to prepare for an (in his mind) inevitable assault on his power base. He is literally prepared for anything.

Now imagine adding actual omniscience, salient divine abilities, and a few thousand years of experience and power to that. That's what your players intend to face.

Seriously ? I mean, I get why you would think that and I tend to think that generally speaking your view makes a lot of sense. But I hardly see every single god as a paranoid uberplanner. I don't know about FR or Shar, but I always thought of Erythnul, for example, as an incarnation of chaos, rage and brutality, not much of a chessmaster... Similarly, Boccob doesn't care that much about political games and is content to be distant and not make any enemies. And that's not even taking into account the fact that you can play the Greek Gods (short-sighted gods if ever there were).
To me, being a God is not like being an epic Wizard (namely, the Tippy-type that rose to power by being paranoid), but more like being the incarnation of something in so pure, so undiluted a manner, that it gives you metaphysical power and permanence - and that everyone knows better than to face your Wrath, regardless of whether you're the incarnation of Random Decisions or the incarnation of Careful Planning.

[Tanuki Tales]

That was then, maybe. After Ao made them dependent on their worshipers for power, public opinion can fight a deity as well.

Yeah, good luck with that though.

As an aside, how many Varakhuts do you think would end up trying to intercede into this?

[Brookshw]

Yeah, good luck with that though.

As an aside, how many Varakhuts do you think would end up trying to intercede into this?

As many as it takes or you succeed/die, the forge elders aren't shy about sending out reinforcements.

[MadGreenSon]

Does anyone actually play this way? That so much as thinking about taking out an evil god gets you retroactively murdered, much less planning/toying with ideas about how to do so? Really?

"But it's impossible!" "Epic NPC and God NPC did this or that!"

So what?

The game isn't about what NPCs be they Epic, Deified or otherwise do. It's about what the players characters do.

Doing impossibly heroic things is supposed to be the game, and the fun. Being a pawn for NPC of the week is not.

You've got everyday life to be a hopless cog in a universe that doesn't need you, why take that to the gaming table too?

[Abithrios]

If you tell people that you plan to kill Shar as soon after deciding on that goal as convenient enough for you to do so, then it is never a secret. The knowledge may be obscure for a while, but it is only a secret if you try to hide it.

Also, Deities and Demigods limits greater deities to 20 places they can remote view at once. A major deity has many places where they can choose to look, as well as many projects to oversee, so the likelyhood of being directly watched at any one time is fairly low, so long as you are not too close to an existing project. I suspect much of the world is already remotely viewable.

As for portfolio sense, if you have a secret, a greater deity of secrets would know you are hiding something. Deities and Demigods suggests that the knowledge is not perfect. According to my reading, the deity may not even be able to automatically tell the difference between plots to kill a person versus plots to kill the deity.

Also, which do deities serve more, self interest or their portfolios? A god of murder, for example, might be in favor of a well executed murder, even if he is the victim.

[MadGreenSon]

Another thing, and this is the biggest chink in any God's armor and the only one you'll ever see exploited in novels and campaign material that is obligated to maintain the status quo that we as players and DMs are most explicitly not required to maintain.

Pride.

Put it properly PRIDE
Ego, Self Esteem, Hubris, etc. Gods have it, they have a lot of it. All of them do, good and evil, all gods suffer from tons of pride.

Optimized? Epic? You're still not even a quasi deity! You can't possibly matter!

Gods basically operate under the mindset that they're living in a novel that's obligated to maintain status quo when at your table they might very well be in the sights of singularly brilliant minds who understand exactly how their universe works and give not a single one of Shar's bitter tears at being less loved than her sister about the status quo.

Don't talk about Gods like they optimize, they don't. They don't think they need to.

So? How about we stop talking about how it can't happen and instead talk about how to do it?

[Brookshw]

Another thing, and this is the biggest chink in any God's armor and the only one you'll ever see exploited in novels and campaign material that is obligated to maintain the status quo that we as players and DMs are most explicitly not required to maintain.

Pride.

Put it properly PRIDE
Ego, Self Esteem, Hubris, etc. Gods have it, they have a lot of it. All of them do, good and evil, all gods suffer from tons of pride.

Optimized? Epic? You're still not even a quasi deity! You can't possibly matter!

Gods basically operate under the mindset that they're living in a novel that's obligated to maintain status quo when at your table they might very well be in the sights of singularly brilliant minds who understand exactly how their universe works and give not a single one of Shar's bitter tears at being less loved than her sister about the status quo.

Don't talk about Gods like they optimize, they don't. They don't think they need to.

So? How about we stop talking about how it can't happen and instead talk about how to do it?

By all means go right ahead. People are listing the challenges, find ways to overcome them. You're correct gods are petty etc. It doesn't stop them from being among the strongest creatures in the game with amazingly powerful abilities and int scores generally capable of thinking circles around most people.

[MadGreenSon]

By all means go right ahead. People are listing the challenges, find ways to overcome them. You're correct gods are petty etc. It doesn't stop them from being among the strongest creatures in the game with amazingly powerful abilities and int scores generally capable of thinking circles around most people.

Ok.

Build a party of 4-6 decently optimized Diplomancers, preferably under level 20 (c'mon guys, you can do it!) casually discuss your plans to talk people out of believing in Shar while brunching at an outdoor cafe.

Go to the city of Shade or whatever they're calling it this week. Talk all of the inhabitants into converting to... Gond or whatever.

Go to other places that revere Shar and repeat.

It's not that she won't see you coming or whatever. She's incapable of believing you can do it.

By the time it's happening, you'll have backup. Big backup.

Also some staves with that nice third level spell that kills the Shadow Weave in a 10' area instantaneously and ways to metamagic the hell out of the spell might be handy too.

This is off the top of my head, poke holes. Do better.

[Immabozo]

Can you make an Ice Assassin of a god? Then send the ice assassin to do it.

Also, all you need, really, is prestigitation

[Erik Vale]

And getting another god to do it? Good luck with that, too. Even with outrageous Diplomacy rolls, these are beings who plan their alliances and maneuvers in painstaking detail centuries in advance. Then some mortal comes along and asks them to kill Shar, right now, just because? Oh, yes, let me abandon my centuries of planning and enrage Ao so that some silly mortals will be satisfied. That's cute. That's not happening.


There's a reason I said diplomance AO. And being that he starts as indifferent it isn't that hard following RAW. The problem is that it definitely will be hit by the RAI hammer if not the Common Sense hammer.

[MadGreenSon]

There's a reason I said diplomance AO. And being that he starts as indifferent it isn't that hard following RAW. The problem is that it definitely will be hit by the RAI hammer if not the Common Sense hammer.

This! Is! Faerun! <Kicks common sense down a well>**



**Please note this happened around the time Ed Greenwood expanded the setting beyond Undermountain, so there's no takebacks!

[Brookshw]

There's a reason I said diplomance AO. And being that he starts as indifferent it isn't that hard following RAW. The problem is that it definitely will be hit by the RAI hammer if not the Common Sense hammer.

Well, since poking holes was requested, where's AO exactly that you can walk up to him and start diplomizing?

As to gods being too arrogant to believe you can pull it off, they can see into the future to see they aren't there so I'm not sure why they would dismiss the threat. I'm not sure how its being proposed to get around this.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I see that a lot of people think it's impossible, but in the Realms gods dies all the time. They are typically killed by other gods, but not always. Moander and Borem were slain by mortals. I think there were some others but I could be wrong.

As to the whole "she'll see it coming;" I haven't even told the DM. In fact I don't even intend to tell the other players. If I can find a way, I just intend to do it.

Currently we don't rate on any extra-planar being's enemy list. We have irritated the Yuan-ti, the Followers of the Scaly Way, and Klauth.

An assault on the divine will be mounted completely out of left field. At the moment the options I have been able to divine are to weed out the followers, or become a deity.

[afroakuma]

As to the whole "she'll see it coming;" I haven't even told the DM. In fact I don't even intend to tell the other players. If I can find a way, I just intend to do it.

Oh. Well in that case, no method in existence will suffice. Killing a god is definitely the kind of thing you talk to your group about.

[Red Fel]

Oh. Well in that case, no method in existence will suffice. Killing a god is definitely the kind of thing you talk to your group about.

This. While fighting a deity with your party is, at best, outrageously hard, soloing one is almost by definition impossible. Trying to depower one without your partymembers being aware is incredibly tough, and puts them at risk without them knowing why. Performing actions that destabilize reality will generally result in some hurt feelings at the table, particularly if you have some Chaotic-types who would really, really feel left out.

Oh, and seeing as you can't simply declare Shar to be depowered and/or dead, at some point you have to make the DM aware of what you're doing. Attempting to cause major changes to the cosmology without at least notifying the DM is dreadfully bad form.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, since poking holes was requested, where's AO exactly that you can walk up to him and start diplomizing?


And how do you sway the opinion of something without stats? They're literal DM fiat. Ao is literally more powerful than Pun-Pun because of that.

[Erik Vale]

Well, since poking holes was requested, where's AO exactly that you can walk up to him and start diplomizing?

You use any one of the diety contact spells, they give you the ability to use full round actions to talk to them [normally just for asking questions]. Either persist it/extend it with plenty of caster level to get the time you need, or be a half elf with the feat to use diplomacy as a standard action.
Then make your Q "Can you kill Shar for me?" [Diplomacy Roll]
[Borked rules]
"Sure random half elf."

[Tanuki Tales]

You use any one of the diety contact spells, they give you the ability to use full round actions to talk to them [normally just for asking questions]. Either persist it/extend it with plenty of caster level to get the time you need, or be a half elf with the feat to use diplomacy as a standard action.
Then make your Q "Can you kill Shar for me?" [Diplomacy Roll]
[Borked rules]
"Sure random half elf."

Ao is statless. Ao doesn't have to follow any rules of the game, period.

[afroakuma]

You use any one of the diety contact spells

Neither of which can reach Ao. Commune requires either your own deity (Ao grants no spells, takes no clerics and is actively removing all mention of himself from Faerun) or a philosophically allied deity (Ao is beyond mortal concerns, allied to no philosophy and opposed to actions which would affect the balance of his world, which includes deicide). Contact other plane cannot reach overdeities. Both specify that you ask questions of the entity and it responds to said questions. Commune can also be diverted at the deity's discretion to other parties to provide answer, while contact other plane can be blocked/ignored outright.

[Drachasor]

Destroying a deity, or even threatening one, would qualify as an act of nihilism. Trying to destroy Shar would involve coming under darkness at some point in the act; she herself would be surrounded by it. By definition she's got six months' warning of any threat on her life.

Well, I think killing any deity counts as an act related to their portfolio (specifically, threatening it). But any god of equal or higher rank can block the advanced warning. So whether the god doesn't necessarily know what is coming.

[Erik Vale]

Ao is statless. Ao doesn't have to follow any rules of the game, period.

That's where it falls to RAI/Common Sense.


Neither of which can reach Ao. Commune requires either your own deity (Ao grants no spells, takes no clerics and is actively removing all mention of himself from Faerun) or a philosophically allied deity (Ao is beyond mortal concerns, allied to no philosophy and opposed to actions which would affect the balance of his world, which includes deicide). Contact other plane cannot reach overdeities. Both specify that you ask questions of the entity and it responds to said questions. Commune can also be diverted at the deity's discretion to other parties to provide answer, while contact other plane can be blocked/ignored outright.

I do remember it stated somewhere [NWN 1 I think, in the fluff pieces, but don't quote me, and I'm not sure which section] that Ao does have worshipers, so falter there. [Edit: However, it is also stated he ignores them]
You could have your cause be Balance or Ao, as as you stated he tries to vaguely balance Faerun and if he is your cause...
Of course, I could definitely see Ao sending your Q's to someone else/refusing the call.


Another possibility is to Bluff/Diplomacy Shar into a situation where she dies. Or does something you want, so win win, up until she smites you for annoying her, and Shar probably has less reason to ignore the call.

[MadGreenSon]

By the by, while we're talking about Realms deities and the silly crap they do in novels. What is Cyric good for?

Seriously. Is this Ao's little joke on the rest?

He's like Bane, but not as good at it.

He's kinda like Mask, but not as good at it.

Myrkul and Bhaal are better at being evil gods and last I checked, they're dead!

I read the original Avatar Trilogy when it was new and I knew that loser would be a really bad (as in failure, not evil) god the second he got the tap at the end of the third book.

What, exactly, qualifies this idiot to be a greater god other than the writers saying he is?

Either way, that frustration aside. No one is interested in ways to undermine/takedown a god? not even a little?
Once you get a good chip into their powerbase it'll be a death-spiral for an evil god, they'll likely not have time for mere mortals as the divine vultures start circling.
Once that first serious decrease in power happens, every enemy and some allies will start interfering in their ability to find out how to stop it.

On that note, it'd be surprising if the various antagonistic gods didn't interfere with each others perceptual abilities on a very regular basis anyway on general principles.

Unlike the novels and setting material, our games do not have to maintain or set up a status quo. (and the set up for 4thed Realms lost me the second Cyric succeeded at anything, it broke my suspension of disbelief)

So c'mon, let's plot deicide.

[ZamielVanWeber]

And how do you sway the opinion of something without stats? They're literal DM fiat. Ao is literally more powerful than Pun-Pun because of that.

Unless you use Deities and Demigods, at which point they can still be insanely powerful (Alter Reality = dramatically better than wish and can still end up being a weapon of last resort). Killing a deity is the kind of thing you do, as a party, with the DM being on board.

[MadGreenSon]

Killing or de-powering a deity is an awesome goal, one you can really build a campaign around. Why is everyone so reluctant to discuss it?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Because it is best handled on a case by case basis. I had a campaign that had a party trying to kill a god mid ascension, but I overshot how many divine ranks I should give him (I went with 6) and he crushed the party on the first round of combat, before they could even act. And I was trying to make it a challenging but winnable fight (The Automatic Metamagic (Warmage Energy Admixture) was stupidly over the top in hindsight, but I had a bunch of extra SDAs).

[Tanuki Tales]

Unless you use Deities and Demigods, at which point they can still be insanely powerful (Alter Reality = dramatically better than wish and can still end up being a weapon of last resort). Killing a deity is the kind of thing you do, as a party, with the DM being on board.

I was speaking of Ao in particular, not the other Faerun deities. They can have stats, if the DM wishes, but Ao having stats is like giving the Lady of Pain stats.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I was speaking of Ao in particular, not the other Faerun deities. They can have stats, if the DM wishes, but Ao having stats is like giving the Lady of Pain stats.

I tried to give the Lady of Pain stats once. Thus ends the story of why I have bionic hands.

In all seriousness, I did totally miss that; sorry.

[MadGreenSon]

So... no one wants to talk about it because it's hard?

Is that the kind of attitude that created Pun-Pun?

Is that the kind of attitude that came up with the Trousersnake Dwarf?

or the Bag of Rats Fighter?

The Omnificer? The Jumplomancer? The Symbol of Pain/Nipple clamp combo for endless distilled joy? The Tippyverse?!? or any of a million insane ideas?

Where's that deranged can-do attitude that 3.5 optimizers are so well-known for? Where's the attitude that calculated how to make a character that can shoot arrows that travel faster than light?

If people like the people on this board can come up with that stuff, why back down from a few gods?

[ZamielVanWeber]

1: Gods normally exist outside standard rules. Deities and Demigods is there if you want gods to be intractable with on a more mechanical level. No one said you have to use it.

2: Even with those on, gods can optimize just as much as you, but have SDAs and random bonuses on their sides.

3: No one does it as a side gig. Gods can be beaten if it is part of the campaign, at which point defeating the god will be worked out as part of the plot. Deciding to off a god while you are bored is not feasible and could easily be a **** move to your party when the deity smites them and you, or you attract some very nasty attention.

Edit: If you want to play a god killing campaign, talk to you DM about running a god killing campaign. They are fun, but that really needs to be the point of the exercise.

[cakellene]

We have been talking about it. Fact that many of us don't see a way it can work, doesn't mean it's not a discussion.

[MadGreenSon]

1: Gods normally exist outside standard rules. Deities and Demigods is there if you want gods to be intractable with on a more mechanical level. No one said you have to use it.


The only gods that don't exist inside the rules are the god of Eberron and that's mostly because they might not even exist.



2: Even with those on, gods can optimize just as much as you, but have SDAs and random bonuses on their sides.


Gods can optimize. But they don't, we've seen their stats, we know they don't. Mystra doesn't even have any levels of Dweomerkeeper fergodsakes!

There are actual reasons for this too. Fluff reasons mostly, but reasons. Gods 1) Are somewhat twisted by their portfolios in certain directions and 2) far too assured of their own power to want to optimize




3: No one does it as a side gig. Gods can be beaten if it is part of the campaign, at which point defeating the god will be worked out as part of the plot. Deciding to off a god while you are bored is not feasible and could easily be a **** move to your party when the deity smites them and you, or you attract some very nasty attention.

I'm not advocating it as a side gig. I think it might be kinda neat to design a whole party around weakening or killing a god. (Most often weakening a god will kill them effectively as they will have other enemies that will move in at that point.)

[Phelix-Mu]

There are actual reasons for this too. Fluff reasons mostly, but reasons. Gods 1) Are somewhat twisted by their portfolios in certain directions and 2) far too assured of their own power to want to optimize


Citation? In my opinion, deities would go about psyreforming and alter reality on themselves until they were better optimized. I mean, if a mortal can do it, probably a god can. I don't buy that a god wouldn't want to actually be better at any given thing than the best mortal. I mean, there is arrogance, but not all pride is delusional.

Anyway, the suggestion of fighting gods always strikes me as funny. Gods are plot elements, only as strong as the plot requires them to be. If you defeat a god, it's because your DM decided to go with what was printed in order to allow you to defeat a god.

You didn't defeat a god, you defeated an incompetent designer (imho).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Gods can optimize. But they don't, we've seen their stats, we know they don't. Mystra doesn't even have any levels of Dweomerkeeper
fergodsakes!
There are actual reasons for this too. Fluff reasons mostly, but reasons. Gods 1) Are somewhat twisted by their portfolios in certain directions and 2) far too assured of their own power to want to optimize

The gods were traditionally made super simple for people to run. Don't make assumptions about gods based on what the author's thought your capacity to run characters is.
1) if this were a justification than it would be evidence that the written up gods are NOT the real ones because they miss out of some very simple opportunities to mesh with their portfolio better and 2) this is nonsensical. Gods are assured of their powers vs mortals, but not Elder Evils/nasty critters from early creation/beyond the stars and CERTAINLY they are not assured of their power vs each other.




I'm not advocating it as a side gig. I think it might be kinda neat to design a whole party around weakening or killing a god. (Most often weakening a god will kill them effectively as they will have other enemies that will move in at that point.)
It is, but you will need to work with your DM. Period. You have options (god killing weapons, beings like Pandorym or Zargon, isolating them from their followers, releasing the hecatonchires), but it is ultimately an RP problem that demands an RP solution. (PS: I like option summon Zargon personally).

[MadGreenSon]

Citation?

Almost everything written about the gods of any setting ever? Even the good ones come off as patronizing and kinda prideful. Not the paranoid, scheming, vulnerable loners that would be created by using the methods you recommend below.


In my opinion, deities would go about psyreforming and alter reality on themselves until they were better optimized. I mean, if a mortal can do it, probably a god can. I don't buy that a god wouldn't want to actually be better at any given thing than the best mortal. I mean, there is arrogance, but not all pride is delusional.


Gods are better at pretty much everything than almost all mortal everywhere all the time. That's part of why their gods. They don't have to try hard anymore they have already got the prize.

Divine rank is an easy button that looks like optimizing from the inside.


Anyway, the suggestion of fighting gods always strikes me as funny. Gods are plot elements, only as strong as the plot requires them to be. If you defeat a god, it's because your DM decided to go with what was printed in order to allow you to defeat a god.

You're doing that thing where you're a killjoy. Stop it.:smallyuk:


You didn't defeat a god, you defeated an incompetent designer (imho).

Well... I don't generally rage on game designers too much, but...:smallbiggrin:

[SinsI]

1) kill it with Crescent Blade

2) Replicate Q’arlynd's High Magic ritual that erased Kiaransalee's name from everyone's memory

[MadGreenSon]

1) kill it with Crescent Blade

2) Replicate Q’arlynd's High Magic ritual that erased Kiaransalee's name from everyone's memory

What? Kiaransalee didn't smite him a month before he tried it? Wasn't she a death god of some sort? I don't seem to remember?

[Alent]

I'll admit I'm green when it comes to killing gods, and don't know the FR setting... but couldn't you use Glibness to epic bluff Shar into thinking she can start a church in Sigil because the lady of pain is permitting it?

Or is this just a good way to get mazed?

[cakellene]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that written stats for deities are more suited for their avatars than the actual deity.

[MadGreenSon]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that written stats for deities are more suited for their avatars than the actual deity.

On that score, I suppose it really depends on what you want from a pantheistic god.
I see no inherent reason for gods to be omnipotent in the settings or even necessarily world-crushingly powerful in order to do what they need to. But they do need that godly edge that mortals don't have.

Pantheistic deities usually come in a few flavors, usually either like mortals only exaggerated or personified concepts, with plenty of mixing between the two ideas (I am making some very broad generalizations here) neither one requires omnipotence or omniscience, just a lot of power (at least over whatever they're the god of).

Look at mythology. Achilles, who was certainly no god, was able to give Ares enough of a smack to send him fleeing a battle in the Trojan War but later he was killed by Paris, with arrows. Not even magical arrows.

Taking on/Taking down a god has a lot of mythic resonance. Getting smote into a deep crater trying does too. I think it's a fun idea to brainstorm with, but it seems that very few here agree.

I'll just save it for Exalted or Scion I suppose.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Some points.

1. My DM uses the gods as published.

2. I'm pretty sure the DM will go along if I can present a reasonable scenario.

3. He will run Shar, and her followers, to head me off at the pass if I provide forewarning.

4. A reasonable chance and phat loot will convince the other party members easily.

5. The party elf is a duskblade, I don't see him acquiring High Magic.

6. The Crescent Blade is a holy relic of Eilistraee? Are there game stats for it anywhere? What happened to it at the end of the novels (which I don't have)?

[Tindragon]

Pay Ed Greenwood 1 million dollars. Problem solved.

[Tindragon]

Some points.

1. My DM uses the gods as published.

So they are stat bags? With no foreknowledge?

2. I'm pretty sure the DM will go along if I can present a reasonable scenario.

3. He will run Shar, and her followers, to head me off at the pass if I provide forewarning.

Shar is the Goddess of Secrets. She knew before you did.

4. A reasonable chance and phat loot will convince the other party members easily.

5. The party elf is a duskblade, I don't see him acquiring High Magic.

6. The Crescent Blade is a holy relic of Eilistraee? Are there game stats for it anywhere? What happened to it at the end of the novels (which I don't have)?


Any DM worth half is weight in scooby snacks, (read run Shar correctly) will allow you to plan, scheme, work towards the goal, then have Shar send a cadre of powerful worshipers, clerics, outsiders to squash you and imprison or obliterate your souls at the 1st hint of the possibility of success.

Non Epic vs deities, even indirectly, should not be possible without direct intervention of another deity. Which means, you're really just pawns in said other deities game.

[mangosta71]

As to the whole "she'll see it coming;" I haven't even told the DM. In fact I don't even intend to tell the other players. If I can find a way, I just intend to do it.
By definition, this makes it a secret, which is her thing.

Something else that I haven't seen anyone bring up - there are gods who will oppose this endeavor because it threatens the balance. There's one god in particular that's kinda big on the balance thing. Two letters long, both vowels, you might have heard of him? People keep throwing his name around as if he would do something like this for you? A snowball has a better chance of surviving in the Abyss than you do of convincing Ao to off Shar for you. If he gets involved, it will not be on your side.

[Sith_Happens]

Destroying a deity, or even threatening one, would qualify as an act of nihilism. Trying to destroy Shar would involve coming under darkness at some point in the act; she herself would be surrounded by it. By definition she's got six months' warning of any threat on her life.

Which is why you make all the necessary preparations to ensure your success farther in advance than that. Six months' warning is only worth as much as you have the ability to quash the attempt in that time.


1) Faiths and Pantheons is outdated. The rules in Deities and Demigods supercede it and say that a Greater Deity senses all actions in their portofolio regardless of how many individuals they affect. Shar's Portofolio in FRCS is night, darkness, loss, secrets, caverns, dungeons, the underdark. So she will know what you're trying to keep secret - before you know it yourself.

Faiths and Pantheons was published after Deities and Demigods and uses the abilities and mechanics describes in it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Which is why you make all the necessary preparations to ensure your success farther in advance than that. Six months' warning is only worth as much as you have the ability to quash the attempt in that time.

Then she would 6 months warning before you started preparations unless your preparations were, literally, in no way meant to harm Shar.

I am seeing a Doctor Who moment here: "I have a god killing sword. You have a Well of Many Worlds. Let's kill Shar."

[Talothorn]

So, in my game I am actively working against Pelor. I am a wiz (nec)//cleric of a deity of death, dead, and undead.

Pelor being a greater deity and my deity being lesser make this difficult.

My approach consists of spreading disinformation, converting worshipers (using rules from quintessential cleric), and supporting a rival god (Lugh, a celtic sun deity).

I work to descredit the church of pelor with the common people and rulers of nations, to lower his overall influence.

I have fought some low level divine agents (both mortal and outsider) but I think I am probably still low on his list of priorities.

Converting priests and parishioners is key I believe.

maybe use the rules from the immortal handbook: ascension

[afroakuma]

Which is why you make all the necessary preparations to ensure your success farther in advance than that. Six months' warning is only worth as much as you have the ability to quash the attempt in that time.

Except that those preparations are themselves subject to her notice, not to mention the notice of other deities who may have strong opinions about planned deicide. After the debacle that was Cyric, I'm pretty sure the greater gods will heavily favor the devils they know.

Also, let's be fair, anything that can alter reality at will but not change an outcome six months into the future isn't deserving of the title "god." :smallyuk:

It's also worth noting that once she knows about you, she knows when you're gonna die and how. There's no save against her picking up that information.

[Brookshw]

Which is why you make all the necessary preparations to ensure your success farther in advance than that. Six months' warning is only worth as much as you have the ability to quash the attempt in that time.


Not sure this makes chronological sense. Unless its a brand new god they could still sense someone's planning an attack considering they would have been around, a year, a decade, a century, whenever you're planning it. As you get closer to the event they start to see the outcomes. Seems the position requires only you exist through time within the confines of your life but requires them to only exist at the time you would make the assault.

[QuidEst]

Imagine your character walks into a field. He or she is traveling from point A to B. Suddenly, your character explodes and you have to re-roll. "But DM," you say, "Why did my character explode?"

The DM shrugs. "He or she stepped on a mine. What did you expect walking into a field with large warning signs that said there were mines everywhere?"

"But you never said there were any signs! My character would have seen them!"

"Oh, I just didn't tell you. You could have worked it out from my mentions about gopher mounds and pieces of wood with markings on them."

---

Just because you don't tell your DM what you're up to doesn't mean that the deity wouldn't know. Sure, you're preventing the DM from being able to make the deity know, but it's like the above scenario.

[RedMage125]

Only read the first page, but I'd like to point out a few things.

1) Shar is not only a Greater Deity, she is one of the first 2 deities to spring into existence of all creation. Her existence and power predates having worshippers of any kind.

2) She is as primordial as darkness itself, destroying her completely is probably completely impossible, for wherever there is darkness, hatred, secrets, or a desire for revenge, Shar will have a foothold.

3) AO does not respond to mortal prayers, and he only directly acts against gods who have violated the tenents of their responsibilities (Time of Troubles). He does not interfere with the machinations of gods between themselves (deaths of Mystra, Azoun, Helm, Tyr, drow pantheon). So AO (concieveably the only being with the power to destroy her outright), is not an option.

That said, Shar has many enemies. Your best bet is to weaken her, and that could be done not only by diminishing her worshippers (a great idea), but also by recruiting those deities who already have reason to oppose her not only by virtue of Good&Evil, but by portfolio or personal enmity. My suggestions would be Lathander/Amaunator, Selune, Sune, Sharess, and Mystra (if playing pre-Spellplague). Lathander and Mystra would be your most powerful allies, and Selune would be the one to tactically lead the assault, as she is as old as her sister, and knows her best. Sharess would be best left out of it, and Sune probably won't get involved.

[Sith_Happens]

Then she would 6 months warning before you started preparations unless your preparations were, literally, in no way meant to harm Shar.

Only if you made those preparations under cover of darkness.


Also, let's be fair, anything that can alter reality at will but not change an outcome six months into the future isn't deserving of the title "god." :smallyuk:

That's Shar's problem, not the OP's.:smalltongue:


It's also worth noting that once she knows about you, she knows when you're gonna die and how. There's no save against her picking up that information.

And if that when and how aren't "Within the next six months, because of something I did or arranged" then she has a problem, doesn't she?

That does bring up a good point, though, because she also has Know Secrets. Which means you need to stay at least eighteen miles from any of her worshipers, temples, or holy sites or objects, starting six months before you start planning until the point that you feel assured of your inevitable victory.

Also, for related reasons, I strongly recommend that any plan to kill Shar involve convincing Mystra that the plan in question has a chance of working if and only if the latter conceals you from the former's divine senses.

[Brookshw]

That does bring up a good point, though, because she also has Know Secrets. Which means you need to stay at least eighteen miles from any of her worshipers, temples, or holy sites or objects, starting six months before you start planning until the point that you feel assured of your inevitable victory.
.

So as to the distance, that's a matter of the remote sensing as opposed to the portfolio sense. Even if she can't watch you she still knows as you're plotting in secret. And again I don't see time as a relevant matter as she isn't frozen in the present moment where you're planning to attack but likewise existed in the past and would have picked up on it then.

[afroakuma]

That does bring up a good point, though, because she also has Know Secrets.

Which means that anyone who knows anything has to be able to save against that effect and stay away from each and every one of her minions.

Just conjecturally, I don't think Mystra would support an action to kill Shar, since the potential issues with the Shadow Weave could impact the Weave negatively. Further, as I noted earlier, leaving that portfolio open could be a complete disaster; while the greater gods weren't great fans of Bane or Bhaal and found Myrkul macabre, they hated Cyric. The gods of the darkside may be unpleasant, evil and scheming, but an ascended mortal's the one you can expect to be a real Richard about it.

When she does find you, that's when the real fun is going to begin. She'll be possessing mortals and dispatching them to murder and thwart you. She can Alter Reality to strip away anti-death protections through those mortals. Note that "mortal" doesn't specify "humanoid," so expect at least a few dragons to show up. Shar's capable of raining down enough pure hell that your friends and civilization will betray you and swear oaths of thanks to the Night Goddess for being so merciful as to leave half of the walls standing.

And she's inventive, too. Never mess with someone who has "loss" in their portfolio. Unlike the gods who might want to act, Shar can legitimately claim self-defense to get authorization for a crapload of misery coming your way on the Prime. You won't be able to get help at the same level as what she's dishing out because the gods won't join a war between a mortal and one of their own - Ao would slap them silly.

[MadGreenSon]

Which means that anyone who knows anything has to be able to save against that effect and stay away from each and every one of her minions.


Once you've reached the point where Shar is gonna be actively looking for you. You better have some methods lined up to avoid her gaze.

Part of that has got to be conceptual jujutsu, where your aim is not her death (a nihilistic goal) but her weakening (a goal that helps the world and gets a good few of her enemies on your side).

Having a redoubt or two in places where she can't/won't look would be good too. Selune has the moon sewed up, are moonbases possible?



Just conjecturally, I don't think Mystra would support an action to kill Shar, since the potential issues with the Shadow Weave could impact the Weave negatively.

Now here is an interesting question. Does Shar use the Shadow Weave? In the sense where that is her source for magic? If so, even my 7th-8th level group has a couple of ways of putting the Shadow Weave in check on the "mortal level" in their immediate vicinity at the moment, if they were concentrating on that (which is not what they're doing at all) they'd be dangerous to Sharrites and Shadow Weave users for sure.

Rend the Shadow Weave is a third level spell, after all.



Further, as I noted earlier, leaving that portfolio open could be a complete disaster; while the greater gods weren't great fans of Bane or Bhaal and found Myrkul macabre, they hated Cyric. The gods of the darkside may be unpleasant, evil and scheming, but an ascended mortal's the one you can expect to be a real Richard about it.

Funny thing, Bane and Bhaal at the least and possibly Myrkul too were all ascended mortals. They were just less failure-prone annoyances than Cyric. Though if we want to drag novel-stuff into it, somewhere out there is a big armored thing and a chick guarding a book (the Cyrinishad, Original Edition) and they and their immediate surroundings are unseeable by all gods everywhere (other than Ao, anyway). Could be useful if found.

The most important part of the "starve her of worship" plan is to get the thing it's own momentum as fast as you can so that it is not dependent on PC efforts alone to be sustained.


A related but not wholly related question: what is the biggest area of effect a 10'x10x10' area spell can be stretched? And how?

[Bonzai]

For kicks, my True Namer's plan to kill Shar was this;

Step 1: Research Shar's Truename. I am a little fuzzy on how Divine Ranks equate to CR. I believe that deities and Demi Gods says to had it's HD and Divine rank together. Shar Is Divine Rank 18 +49 class levels =CR 67. This means that assuming I'm at candle keep or some other library, it will take roughly 34 weeks and 8,500 GP to find out.

Step 2: Buy a Scroll of ritual of renaming, and a scroll of unname. The scroll of unname is going to need to have a caster level of 50 to over come her SR. Obtaining such a scroll would probably be a quest in and of it's self. That also means that I also need a UMD of 70 to auto pass the UMD check.

Step 3. I'm going to have to boost the Save DC for the Scroll of uname up to 83 to get past her fort save. Assuming the DM doesn't rule that she auto passes everything.

Step 4. Gate myself into Shar's plane and cast ritual of renaming while some how being beneath her notice. At this point my true name changes, and Shar will know of the existence of the person who is about to kill her. The person I was ceases to exist, and the new person I am is already close enough to strike...hopefully.

Step 5: Cast the scroll of uname on Shar. Will need to be able to make a True Speak check of 151 as part of the spell casting process. Assuming all goes to plan, Shar ceases to exist.

That was his plan, which was admittedly easier said than done. lol.

[Mystia]

I've read through the whole thread since this is a subject I've always found very amusing and interesting (god slaying).. I'd like to point out a few things I believe that no one spoke of in this thread so far.
Oh, also I'd like to say that I barely know anything from FR, and my arguments are based mostly on what I've learned from this thread and Deities and Demigods. I may get a few things wrong, don't hesitate to correct me.

Most of what I want to say is kinda subjective.. I think that everyone who said that it depends a lot on your DM is right, but not only from a "being competent or not" perspective, but actually because it depends on which rules he uses for them.

I want to throw in two questions which may or not matter and be amusing.

First, what about time paradoxes? Let's give an example. The god's portfolio sense tingles. He senses/sees himself dying at the hands of X, 20 weeks from today. He does everything in his godly power to utterly annihilate his assassin. In 20 weeks, he still dies, under the very conditions he predicted, or, at the very best, under slightly different ones. He is a god. He saw the future. He could not change it, because his future self had also seen the future, and still failed, despite also trying to stop his killer. Basically, if a god gets to the point of seeing himself dead 20 weeks from now on, he has already lost. If he sees someone threatening him, that doesn't change either. His future self was also incapable of stopping the threat, and thus, so he is.
Like I said, a time paradox, more or less. This kind of stuff happens all the time in movies, books and anime, so why not in D&D? Again, depends on the DM.

Second.. I'm unfamiliar with Shar, but what exactly is considered a "secret" to her? And how many of them can she keep up with at once?
I mean, if a random thought floating up in someone's mind can be already detected by her, she's probably overloaded with information. All. The. Time. No matter if a god with deityness of 20, that will be far too much information. From secrets of kids who hid away the vase they broke from their parent's sight, to the secret love of some schoolgirl, to the affairs of a lord, to the planned robbery of a thief, to the infinite backstabbings planned in the bloody nine hells... I almost go insane from just imagining.
It depends a lot on how your DM views it. I, personally, would rule it that she can constantly listen to all of the secrets in the universe as whispers in her head, all the time. But she can only properly pay attention to 20 at once. Unless she really is an overdeity already, in which case she's on par with Azathoth and others from the Cthulhu Mythos, she'd be secrets incarnate, in that case, she indeed is able of knowing everything, all the time, truly omniscient.

Edit: revising stuff.

[mangosta71]

Part of that has got to be conceptual jujutsu, where your aim is not her death (a nihilistic goal) but her weakening (a goal that helps the world and gets a good few of her enemies on your side).
"Making the world a better place" is a completely subjective phrase and is limited by your lowly mortal imagination. You're also still not taking into account the gods that are active champions of the balance. This isn't that George Lucas "the balance only exists in the absence of evil" bovine fecal matter, either. This is actual "both sides must be equally strong to prevent the tyranny of either" balance.

Besides, if the death of Mystra triggered the Spellplague, what apocalypse would you trigger by killing Shar? The Good gods will actively work against you to prevent it. The Neutral gods will actively work against you to prevent it. The Evil gods probably won't much care about the devastation you're about to unleash, but Shar will have allies/conspirators.

In short, you're not just taking on one incomprehensibly powerful being. You're gonna have to take on what will amount to basically the whole pantheon if you want to kill any one of them. You would actually have an easier time if you wanted to kill a Good god, because at least then you could enlist all of the Evil deities to your cause.

[atemu1234]

Ok. Gods are very rarely defeated, even more rarely destroyed, and almost never permanently destroyed. In normal canon D&D, they are really only capable of dying by being not just killed, but by having the belief and knowledge of them wiped out. Literally, the only way I can think to do so is in Epic terms. Make a mass version of Mind Rape that only targets her worshipers as they pray to her, that alters their minds so that they worship a different god. Possibly the PCs, and the DM may divide her divine ranks among her. Then you wipe her out. Now, in non-Epic spellcasting ways, maybe have the DM make a god-killing one-use artifact?

[MadGreenSon]

Or do that thing that was done to wossername. That one drow goddess that no one remembers. Had something to do with death I think?

[Phelix-Mu]

Alrighty then, here's a better defense of my views that fighting gods is silly and that gods are probably optimized.

1.) Crazy, power-hungry mortals are not a new thing. Pretty sure most settings have a long history of whackos gunning for gods, and some of them were even high-level spellcasters. And some of those high-level spellcasters were probably optimized.

2.) So, optimized mortals have gone after the gods before.

3.) The gods still exist, so clearly the vast majority of deicide attempts fail, probably including some committed by optimized individuals.

4.) The gods, by virtue of having not already been whacked by an optimized mortal, have or were always optimized beyond the reach of those that threatened them.

5.) As it was, so is it now. The gods still sit atop the PO pile of beings in the multiverse, so to stand a chance, a person needs to come up with a brand new bit of op, remove all weaknesses from existing op, and prevent the gods from pulling some message in a bottle/time travel bit to warn their past selves about the future threat so they can counter-op.

In other words, wishing to commit deicide is very unoriginal. The gods know that people will try it, they know the tricks used, and they have prepared accordingly.

I mean, they'd have to be worse than incompetent to think "Hey, I have so much power that no one is ever going to want to take it from me AND have a decent plan for doing so." That is, as I mentioned before, silly.

[MadGreenSon]

So... Your argument for why gods should be optimized like player characters is that most settings have a long history of player characters rather than NPCs?

You must be playing in some long-running games. I envy you that, seriously.

[Brookshw]

So... Your argument for why gods should be optimized like player characters is that most settings have a long history of player characters rather than NPCs?

You must be playing in some long-running games. I envy you that, seriously.

I don't believe he used either term actually.

Looking at the setting I believe an entire empire was lost when q certain epic mage went after a god.

[AuraTwilight]

So... Your argument for why gods should be optimized like player characters is that most settings have a long history of player characters rather than NPCs?

You must be playing in some long-running games. I envy you that, seriously.

No, what he says is that settings, especially Forgotten Realms by it's nature, have had a long history of people who were probably way stronger than the PCs, if only by statistical inevitability.

Given enough time, eventually a superpowerful spellcaster of some kind will try to take out the gods, and it's likely they were very optimized when they did so. To say otherwise is to paint a setting where the PCs were literally the first people ever to think of basic concepts of obtaining power.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I thank you all for your time and attention. But since the thread has devolved into why god-slaying is impossible (despite its frequency in canon) I hereby rescind my request for assistance.

[afroakuma]

I thank you all for your time and attention. But since the thread has devolved into why god-slaying is impossible (despite its frequency in canon) I hereby rescind my request for assistance.

Canonical circumstances of godslaying aren't useful to you, though. Of the deities not killed during the Time of Troubles, their fates were as follows:

Amaunator's worship base crumbled after the fall of Netheril. After about a millenium, he faded away.

Auppenser was worshiped by a geographically limited population base decimated by a sweeping magical catastrophe. A few hundred years later, he died from lack of worship.

Iyachtu Xvim evolved into Bane. Bane rigged that up beforehand.

Kiputytto had a portfolio conflict with Talona. She was killed by the stronger goddess.

Kukul refused to continue living out of grief at Maztica's death.

Maztica was murdered by her son after pouring her energies into creation.

Moander rotted his own worshipers to death and hurled an absolutely overkill amount of resources into staging an attack against a powerful elven civilization led by his avatar. They bound his avatar to the Prime and routed his forces, and he still wasn't dead. It took thousands of years and multiple resurrections/destructions culminating in a divinely-assisted quest into the god's own realm to do him in for good and he could still come back. Moander was a lesser god at the peak of his powers and a demigod at the time he died.

Murdane had Auppenser's issue, plus she was killed by another god during an open godswar.

Tyche was corrupted and her essence split by other gods. It's still intact in the form of two powerful intermediate deities.

[Tanuki Tales]

To sum up how gods have canonically been killed most the time:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/5d/5dc3e73ef1c3722158beb950aff7d19059515c63b1a813a36e 7580e66f34a158.jpg

[MadGreenSon]

No, what he says is that settings, especially Forgotten Realms by it's nature, have had a long history of people who were probably way stronger than the PCs, if only by statistical inevitability.


Except that it's just not so. They are not stronger than PCs by statistical inevitability, they're stronger by having a poorly thought out mix of classes and/ or templates dumped on them until they're epic enough for the utter failure of their builds to not matter.



Given enough time, eventually a superpowerful spellcaster of some kind will try to take out the gods, and it's likely they were very optimized when they did so. To say otherwise is to paint a setting where the PCs were literally the first people ever to think of basic concepts of obtaining power.

1) Not such basic concepts of obtaining power, apparently. Karsus had to be a 40+ level arcanist before he came up with an Epic spell to try and steal godhood with and this was apparently back when doing epic magic was easy and broken, rather than just broken

2) player characters are special. They are the first protagonists not straightjacketed by canon into maintaining the status quo or advancing a predetermined plot!

All of canon history is meaningless before the fact that all of canon history had to lead into the current setting and nothing could change it. Therefore the canon has to support the setting, but the setting, as you move it forward in your games has no obligation to continue to support canon.

If optimizing were a thing for everyone in the Realms, the Realms would be the Tippyverse and everyone knows it.

[Mithril Leaf]

No, what he says is that settings, especially Forgotten Realms by it's nature, have had a long history of people who were probably way stronger than the PCs, if only by statistical inevitability.

Given enough time, eventually a superpowerful spellcaster of some kind will try to take out the gods, and it's likely they were very optimized when they did so. To say otherwise is to paint a setting where the PCs were literally the first people ever to think of basic concepts of obtaining power.

This does make me question whether you have actually seen a character built for the Forgotten Realms in the published material. They are hilariously hilariously bad. Like, if you gave someone 24 to make a character despite never having played 3.5 before, there's a 50/50 shot of them being better.

[AuraTwilight]

This does make me question whether you have actually seen a character built for the Forgotten Realms in the published material. They are hilariously hilariously bad. Like, if you gave someone 24 to make a character despite never having played 3.5 before, there's a 50/50 shot of them being better.

I'm aware. I'm speaking on behalf of Phelix-Mu's thought experiment.

[Captnq]

And what makes your way the One True Way? :smallconfused:

Simple: My players tell me it's fun.

If it's not fun, then it's wrong.

It's sort of like this:

DM: You can't climb that wall.
Player: I have a wall climbing power.
DM: It doesn't work.
Player: Why?
DM: You don't know.

Now, at this point, there are two ways to play this. The right way, and the wrong way.

Right Way: The DM has a reason (Selective Magical Field that Eats energy Blah Blah Blah) Wall climbing power will not work.
Wrong Way: I want the players to walk the long way around, so you can't climb here.

Now, in the right way, there is a chance, no matter how slight, that the player might cast detect magic, notice how the wall crawling power failed, ask to make a spellcraft roll to notice how the energy drains away when the wall crawling power fails, then figure out the effect making wall crawling impossible. using that they determine that they could use Blah Blah Blah and figure out a way the DM never considered and throw themselves up the wall, thus completely avoiding the part of the adventure the DM spent two weeks working on.

It's okay to make Almost impossible situations. But it's poor form to just say NO.

That's the problem with DMs and Gods. They assume, "Well, if I play the God Right, there is no way the players can win.

Well, true, but there are other gods. There is random chance. There are titans that can crawl up and eat your face. There are distractions. There are so many ways that things might randomly go in the player's favor that to simply say they have no chance is wrong.

Classic case (2nd edition):

So Bane just sent a squad after the PCs and there were a WHOLE mess of NPCs and basically there was a small army fighting another small army and I was rather impressed with how the PCs won. They stopped. Healed up. Then the leader of the PCs said, "That does it. I'm pissed." He took a luck blade and wished, "I wish Bane was here, right now. In front of me!"

So I stopped for the night.

A week later I returned and said, "You know what? Bane is under no obligation to show up. But bane's avatar has stats, so his avatar is going to show up. The battle begins. I am going to try and murder all of you.

You remember how under 2nd edition the backstab rules worked? Do you remember the multipliers on the sunblade? Ever see a halfling dual wield two sunblades in a backstab? Boy was that a whole mess of damage.

Then the half-orc got a lucky shot with a vorpal blade.

That was the single shortest god fight I ever saw. One round. Whud. Dead.

Out of petty revenge he blew up of course. Massive blast of hellish death. Got a few NPCs, but nothing serious. Which resulted in Bane spending the rest of the campaign trying to hunt down and murder the Half-Orc because he blamed her for everything.

Now, he kept trying and trying, but the Half-Orc went to Mystra and said, "I need protection." So the two gods sort of cancled each other out and it was really a never ending series of boss monster fights.

Long story short, the players figure out how to blow up the indestructable throne of bane. Bane finally has it. Gets so ticked off that Ao won't let him just hit the Half-Orc with a comet that bane then goes and steals the tablets that starts godsfall, why?

Because in the last few thousand years, he never met anyone so lucky who just kept taunting him, over and over and over until he finally exploded and did something stupid, like steal Ao's notepad

Now here's another example from a 3rd party modual. Who's familiar with Rapan athuk?

The Overmind
Also known as the “elder-brain,”
the wholly evil Overmind is a five-foot-wide, five-footdeep
pool of briny fluid containing the brains of this
community’s dead mind flayers. Any non-evil being
passing between the pillars that surround the Overmind
must succeed on a DC 25 Will save or lose 2 points of
Wisdom. These points can be regained either by magical
means or with one week’s bed rest in a good-aligned
church and a successful DC 25 Will save. In addition to
the Wisdom drain, the Overmind emits a powerful mind
blast that affects anyone within the pillars’ perimeter. This
attack requires a successful DC 25 Will save, and, unlike
a normal mind blast, instead of stunning its victims the
blast knocks them unconscious for 4d10 minutes.
The Overmind enjoys immunity to fire, electricity, cold,
magic missiles and acid, and it cannot be harmed by physical
attacks. Touching the Overmind conveys a lethal shocking
grasp attack for 1d8+20 points of electricity damage; DC
20 Fort for half damage. This attack automatically repeats
every round that a PC remains in physical contact with
the Overmind, no matter how slight.

Then it goes on and on about how you have to do all this stupid crap to kill it. Well, you know what my players found on the level right before running into this elder brain?

Mustard jelly.

They fixed it when they remade the module, but in the original, the mustard jelly was immune to mind attacks, got more hit dice when you hit it with electrical attacks, and under the old rules, the damage a mustard jelly did to you was as a disease.

The over mind isn't immune to disease and the mustard jelly is immune to everything the elder mind can throw at you. So the players used Ooze puppet, tossed the mustard jelly on top of the elder brain, then sealed it in with a wall of force. The elder brain was digested.

I thought it was a brilliant solution. I posted it on the boards over that their website. I was flamed to hell and gone. They kept telling me I was an idiot, and that I should have just made it fail and that just because it's not written down doesn't mean that it isn't immune to disease.

Seriously. I have never been so aggressively attacked before on a forum. I logged out and never went back after that.

My point is, that's the WRONG WAY.

The elder brain was supposed to be impossible to kill, except when the players use ooze puppet and wall of force and watch the elder brain electricute it's attacker every round BECAUSE IT CAN'T STOP. I didn't put the word automatically in there, the author did. I ran it out of the book as written. No changes. My players took the doors off the hinges and sold the wood for scrap.

However, according to Sword and Sorcery, I should have cheated. Made things up. Changed the rules in the middle of the game. Moved the goal posts. The players were supposed to lose, no matter what.

That's wrong. A DM is supposed to set the rules, even if he makes them up in his head. Once he makes them up, you can't just arbitrarily change them.

Both were impossible fights. One case the players got VERY LUCKY. Once case the players were VERY SMART. But they both required the DM to play the game CORRECTLY.

The correct way being: Don't Cheat.

A third example. Playing White Wolf: MtA. One of the players wanted to be a familiar. She was playing an "Eyeball Sucker" She was a small bat that could eat eyes. It was her thing. She was the death mage's familiar. Long story.

So a twenty story demon monster gets free and the plot line was: He walks past the players and ignores them. They are far too insignificant. They cannot do anything to harm him. He has no weak spots.

Well, long story short, The eyeball sucker could fly and wanted to fly up and suck out his eyes. She had the skill. She had the power. I said, "Give me five tens." A willpower and four tens later, There was one fat eyeball sucker and a demon with a really suprised look on his face and an empty eye socket.

So I'm thinking, "Now you're gonna get it." Then the death mage leaped into the empty socket and unloaded a fully automatic shotgun filled with magic enhanced primium bullets into the back of the demon's head.

I was never so angry in my life.

I wanted to murder the players. How dare they destroy my plot line I spent a month working on in the FIRST ROUND OF COMBAT!!!

I walked away. I thought about it. I calmed down. Then I realized, for the first time, the truth. There is always a way. There is no perfect defense.

You can state, "If you play a God Intelligently, he always wins." But you know what? Some players are so STUPID they don't know they can't win. Some players are so INSANE that no intelligent being, no matter how powerful, will ever see them coming.

I'm sorry. That's just the way it is. The players will ooze puppet a mustard jelly, call him Hot Dog. The bard will start up a song called "Hot Dog, the mustard jelly" About how he ate the elder brain. Then they will find a way to make it intelligent. They will put a helm of opposite alignment on the jelly, and turn him into a LG PALADIN. Why? Because they are PLAYERS.

No. Sorry. No God in the universe is prepared for that level of crazy. To state that the players cannot win is wrong. You just can't IMAGINE how they will win. I never would have imagined a tenth of the crap my players have pulled. Voormas, Harvester of Souls never expected a glowing green bat to suck all three eyes out of his avatar form.

Nobody expects the players to figure out how to set off an earthquake spell FOR TEN MINUTES STRAIGHT.

Nobody expects the players to figure out how to literally ROLL UP THE STREETS at 9pm.

No one expects a player to basically have herself shoved inside someone's nose so she could return to full size and enter a cycle of death, explosion, and rebirth 28 times in hopes of killing an immortal.

No one expects the players to harvest the spine of the matron mother of Menzoberranzan's most powerful drow house and they try to make a sword out of it because, "I saw this in a movie once"

I guess my point is, If you are a DM who can't deal with the players outsmarting you and the only way you can win is by DMs Fiat, you are playing wrong.

The right way is you give them a chance. Or if they have no chance, you explain WHY they can't. You don't have to tell them, but you do need to work it out. Because they might come up with something you never imagined was possible.

[Tanuki Tales]

Simple: My players tell me it's fun.

If it's not fun, then it's wrong.


But it's not the only "right" way either. Your group's fun is not everyone's fun.

[MadGreenSon]

Simple: My players tell me it's fun.

If it's not fun, then it's wrong.

It's sort of like this:

<Snip Awesome>

The right way is you give them a chance. Or if they have no chance, you explain WHY they can't. You don't have to tell them, but you do need to work it out. Because they might come up with something you never imagined was possible.

You have a great attitude about running games. I'd be privileged to play with someone like you.




But it's not the only "right" way either. Your group's fun is not everyone's fun.

Um... He said the ONE TRUE WAY was to have fun. Not what kind of fun you need to have. Having fun is why we play, isn't it?

[Red Fel]

Simple: My players tell me it's fun.

If it's not fun, then it's wrong.

. . .

The right way is you give them a chance. Or if they have no chance, you explain WHY they can't. You don't have to tell them, but you do need to work it out. Because they might come up with something you never imagined was possible.

It should come as a surprise to precisely nobody, but I agree with everything the Cap just said. It is about fun, it is about giving your players the chance to do whatever they want.

I also agree with the part where he said he would play these godlike figures fairly. Specifically:


The battle begins. I am going to try and murder all of you.

In one illustration, the players got lucky. In another, they did something exceptionally clever. As I've said elsewhere, I am a strong proponent of awarding player cleverness.

Let me be clear. I have not said - or if I have, I did not mean to say - that players should be fiat-barred from fighting/killing/depowering gods. I have said, or intended to say, that it will be extremely hard, bordering on impossible, but still within some remote realm of probability. Players are welcome to try. But, as the Cap has stated, if my players attempt something on this scale, I will hold nothing back. I will actively try to murder their characters. And I will not limit the fallout if they succeed - disrupting a cosmology isn't like slaying a dragon, where you kill it and you're done. There are repercussions.

A deity is, by definition, the most powerful opponent the PCs could face. I will not handle a deity encounter like any other encounter. I will not play a deity like any other NPC. There will be plans within plans, and contingencies, and power overwhelming, and save-or-dies and save-and-lose-anyways and salient divine abilities and I will do everything in my power to make the PCs suffer for their arrogance. But it will not be fiat. It will be by the rules, and if the PCs have anything that can overcome divine damage reduction and resist divine power they shall have the opportunity to use it, for what it's worth. I don't expect them to survive, but I won't jump to the conclusion "Gods fall, everyone dies."

I would, however, like to point out one key matter, and that is that fun is not universal across one table, let alone across multiple groups. One player might think that deicide is an exciting new challenge, while another at the same table really, really has no intention of losing his character to a hideously grisly death by deity. The OP requested a means of depowering or destroying Shar. The OP explicitly stated that neither the other players nor the DM had been told. Thus, even if this act turns out to be boatloads of fun for the OP, there is no guarantee that the other players will have any fun whatsoever. In fact, I'm inclined to believe that they won't, based solely on the fact that the planned deicide is being kept secret from them. (As a rule, I assume you keep secrets from people because it would be bad if they found them out.)

Thus, the argument that "The players' fun matters more, therefore you should allow them to try to kill Shar" doesn't follow logically, because we have no evidence that the plan would be fun for anyone apart from the OP.

[MadGreenSon]

It should come as a surprise to precisely nobody, but I agree with everything the Cap just said. It is about fun, it is about giving your players the chance to do whatever they want.

I also agree with the part where he said he would play these godlike figures fairly.


I agree with you and Cap on this, no plans of deicide have yet come up in any games I either am running or have run. The closest is the lower level party grumbling about the Shadow Weave because the Shadovar et. al. are a bunch of smug bastards. The Shooting Star Mystic Ranger got rewarded with a wand of Rend the Shadow Weave (among other things) for successful questing by the Church of Mystra and they seem happy with imaging the look on the face of the next smug Shadow Weave mage they run into when they unleash that trinket.

But if any godkillin' were on the table I would not go easy on them, I also wouldn't retroactively kill them for thinking of it. I'd let it play out, see what happens and try to portray everything as plausibly as possible.



In one illustration, the players got lucky. In another, they did something exceptionally clever. As I've said elsewhere, I am a strong proponent of awarding player cleverness.


The Ooze Puppet of Doom was awesome incarnate. I cannot believe he got yelled at in the Sword and Sorcery forums for allowing his players that totally legit option.

He must have run a better game of Rappan Athuk than I played in. The group I was in at the time got tired of it very early on and we left to find other bits of the world to explore. I gotta give props for that too.
(The DM was tired of it too, we went on to have a decent length game afterwards)



Let me be clear. I have not said - or if I have, I did not mean to say - that players should be fiat-barred from fighting/killing/depowering gods. I have said, or intended to say, that it will be extremely hard, bordering on impossible, but still within some remote realm of probability. Players are welcome to try. But, as the Cap has stated, if my players attempt something on this scale, I will hold nothing back. I will actively try to murder their characters. And I will not limit the fallout if they succeed - disrupting a cosmology isn't like slaying a dragon, where you kill it and you're done. There are repercussions.


Yeah, as soon as PCs show a genuine threat to a god's powerbase, they should definitely come under serious fire, not contesting that.

As far as repercussion of success... Anyone else notice that Ao seems to have a "keep what you kill" policy on godliness?

Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul got their divine ascension by killing one of the "Seven Lost Gods" so it's not completely without precedent. (Also, Bane won the portfolio of strife in a game of dice:smallbiggrin:)




<Snip>

I don't expect them to survive, but I won't jump to the conclusion "Gods fall, everyone dies."


Great turn of phrase there.:smallbiggrin:



<snip>

Thus, the argument that "The players' fun matters more, therefore you should allow them to try to kill Shar" doesn't follow logically, because we have no evidence that the plan would be fun for anyone apart from the OP.

Yeah, considering the revelations from the OP we should probably let this one go for the time being and take up the whys, hows and wherefores of fighting gods in a new thread on another occasion.

[Tanuki Tales]

Um... He said the ONE TRUE WAY was to have fun. Not what kind of fun you need to have. Having fun is why we play, isn't it?

He called Red a bad DM and that he was doing it wrong because Red's definition of fun did not conform to his group's definition of fun.

[MadGreenSon]

He called Red a bad DM and that he was doing it wrong because Red's definition of fun did not conform to his group's definition of fun.

I say this in all honesty. I just went back through the whole thread and did not see that. Is it possible that I'm not seeing the posts you're referring to somehow?

[Tanuki Tales]

I say this in all honesty. I just went back through the whole thread and did not see that. Is it possible that I'm not seeing the posts you're referring to somehow?

Post 19.

Cap said that Red Fel's way of DMing lacked consistent, internal logic (by Cap's definition) and was nothing but railroading, while his specific way of DMing the situation was the correct way to play the game.

[MadGreenSon]

Post 19.

Cap said that Red Fel's way of DMing lacked consistent, internal logic (by Cap's definition) and was nothing but railroading, while his specific way of DMing the situation was the correct way to play the game.

Ok. I apologize if I gave offense. I stand corrected. It was far enough back that I'd forgotten about it and I apparently missed it when I went through the thread.