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View Full Version : What would maneuvers need to do to make swordsages tier 2?



Pangaea
2014-03-06, 09:37 AM
Basically what it says in the title. What kind of maneuvers is the swordsage missing that could bump it up to a tier 2 ckass, or is this not possible, even with completely broken maneuvers? Links to homebrew maneuvers that can do this would be very helpful too, but this is mostly a theoretical question designed to get my brain thinking about this.

Note I purposefully asked about swordsage, because warblade and crusader don't have enough maneuvers known to really be teir 2 unless they had a maneuver that basically duplicated wish (or maybe I'm wrong, let me know!).

Segev
2014-03-06, 09:41 AM
One occasionally-mentioned "alternate" design of the Swordsage gives them access to Sor/Wiz spells in place of maneuvers of the same level, with the Swordsage usage mechanics. It's right in the ToB in the Swordsage section.

So a good start might be to see what would make that Tier 2 by examining the spells it could have available to it. Then, if that doesn't satisfy your conditions, go back and design maneuvers to replicate, mimic, or improve upon the spells that you would have needed on the adapted swordsage to make it Tier 2.

Psyren
2014-03-06, 09:44 AM
Cast spells. (wizard/cleric/druid)

OldTrees1
2014-03-06, 09:47 AM
Tiers 1 and 2 are defined by having game breaking abilities in addition to be competent or better at everything.

So give them Polymorph and Lesser Planar Binding

Red Fel
2014-03-06, 09:53 AM
Tiers 1 and 2 are defined by having game breaking abilities in addition to be competent or better at everything.

So give them Polymorph and Lesser Planar Binding

This. Part of the problem is that, with very few exceptions, maneuvers tend not to have out-of-combat functionality. Tiers 1 and 2 are defined by their ability to do pretty much anything, combat or otherwise. Spells can provide transportation, diplomacy, protection, magic items, information, free money, basically anything the PCs could need or want. If you want a martial class to move into Tier 2, he has to be able to do something more than just martial stuff.

There are no maneuvers that provide actual long-distance teleportation. (Shadow Blink is too short a range.) There are none that provide a diplomacy bonus. (Admittedly, slicing a guy wide open can offer a good Intimidate bonus to his friends, but not the same thing.) There are none that bring the dead back to life, that consult deities for advice, that create a wall of iron you can sell for a quick profit, or that summon Celestials to heed your beck and call. Start with any of those, really, and we'll talk.

Segev
2014-03-06, 09:57 AM
A Stone Dragon maneuver mimicking Earth Bending that uses Wall of Iron stats?