[PF] Is Pounce worth it ?

[Divicius]

I'm Building a Synthesist with 2 lvl of Paladin for our next campaign (Second Darkness). Half elf with 1/4 evolution bonus.
Since this adventure path ends around lvl 13-14, I'm focusing on the 10th level to see how it goes.

Character lvl 10, no buff, no smite vs AC 24
Feats : arcane strike, power attack, imp nat att, weapon focus (sword,claws)

Option 1 : Quadruped (2xLimbs, 2xClaws, Large, Rend, Pounce)
(Greatsword 18/13(3d6+23) 4xClaws 16(1D8+9) => Rend 87%(1d8+23)
107 DPR.

Option 2 : Biped (Limbs, Claws, Large, Rend, Improved claws, Energy attack)
(Greatsword 19/14(3d6+24) 4xClaws 17(2D6+9+1D6) => Rend 92%(2d6+24+1d6)
140 DPR

The question is : Pounce is really worth the -30 dpr ?

[Sian]

invalid calcuation ...

you should get an estimate of how much you would charge, and then add, a standard attack routine to the later one, averaging out the damage

Weapon Focus (Sword) and Weapon Focus (Claws) are fairly much two trap feats thats much better used otherwise

[cakellene]

How often would you be able to full attack without pounce?

[Barstro]

Option 1 : Quadruped (2xLimbs, 2xClaws, Large, Rend, Pounce)
(Greatsword 18/13(3d6+23) 4xClaws 16(1D8+9) => Rend 87%(1d8+23)
107 DPR.

Option 2 : Biped (Limbs, Claws, Large, Rend, Improved claws, Energy attack)
(Greatsword 19/14(3d6+24) 4xClaws 17(2D6+9+1D6) => Rend 92%(2d6+24+1d6)
140 DPR

The question is : Pounce is really worth the -30 dpr ?

Nice math and statistics. You need to figure out more variables to get your answer;
1) How often will you get all your attacks as a Biped? Quad with pounce almost guarantees the full attack; Biped, not so much.
2) Will Haste come into play for an extra attack?
3) Will Damage Reduction alter this at all (certainly hurt the Summoner in my game)

Also, I'm not in the mood to check if your attacks are correct with both weapon and natural. I leave that to you to make sure.

[Tanuki Tales]

Are there situations where pounce isn't a must have? :smallconfused:

[zimmerwald1915]

Since this adventure path ends around lvl 13-14,
Are you sure? AFAIK, Second Darkness ends at 16th level. That said, the AP was written for 3.5, so if your GM is converting to Pathfinder it may end on a lower level. Double-check.

As for your question, it looks like you're comparing full attack to full attack, which is somewhat inappropriate. The point of Pounce is to get more full attacks. If you want to see the benefit of Pounce, compare one charging full attack plus one regular full attack by the first build with one charging single attack plus one regular full attack by the second build.

EDIT: partially ninja'd by Sian.

[Divicius]

Ok, let's calculate :

Group vs 6 monsters

Quadruped :
Each round is 107 damages, charging or not. Easy to calculate.

Biped :
1st Round is charge then Greatsword for average 38 damages.
2nd Round is either full attack at 140 or another charge at 38.
The other player know I will finish it, they don't hit it, I do 140.
3rd 4th round, I take a new one, still full of life.
5th, 6th round I charge and finish some.
(38*4+140*2)/6=72 dpr

Group vs 1 Big Monster

Quadruped : Still 107 !

Biped :
1st Round = 38
2nd Round = 140
from there, either the big bad does something to escape me or he's dead next round.
3rd Round = 140 or charge or nothing

It's tough to estimate. But in the best case I need a full 4th round to get over the 107 dpr.

Conclusion

My best shot is the quadruped ?

What would you choose over Weapon focus ?

@Barstro I'm pretty sure about the math, if I've made an error it's on both build so it doesn't change the validity of the question.

Arcane strike cover DR/magic

[Sian]

and there you have it ... while in a vacuum, pounce might seem less than brilliant, its really good when you pay mind to that combat mechanics aren't perfect for you all the time ... sure ideal circumstances makes making your attacks hit harder better, but in real battles, you're much better off by actually attacking more times, instead of getting up close and prodding the opponent once ... specially so if your opponent plays smart, or you're against several opponents instead of the boss (and this can be migrated somewhat by your character focusing on the mooks while the rest of your party focus on the boss)

[Ravens_cry]

It's not RAW, but I always though centauroid forms should be able to use mounted feats as if mounted, with the exception of features that let you make Ride checks to avoid damage. If your DM agrees, that could make your damage skyrocket.

[eggynack]

It's quite possible that you're still assuming too many attacks on the part of the biped. Let's say that your enemy doesn't need to stand right next to you in order to do their thing. Maybe they have magic, or maybe they have ranged attacks of some kind, or maybe they have reach that exceeds yours by more than five feet. In those situations, instead of just standing there and taking a full attack, the enemy could just, y'know, move ten feet away, and that's it for your big full attack.

You may also be overestimating the actual damage per round on the pounce, however. In particular, as your second iterative has a lower to-hit than the first one, it has a lower chance of actually hitting than the first one, and therefore counts for somewhat less in your damage calculations. It's a pretty important component of actual damage, though it is likely of little consequence when compared to the power of pounce.

[Quertus]

I'm Building a Synthesist with 2 lvl of Paladin for our next campaign (Second Darkness). Half elf with 1/4 evolution bonus.
Since this adventure path ends around lvl 13-14, I'm focusing on the 10th level to see how it goes.

Character lvl 10, no buff, no smite vs AC 24
Feats : arcane strike, power attack, imp nat att, weapon focus (sword,claws)

Option 1 : Quadruped (2xLimbs, 2xClaws, Large, Rend, Pounce)
(Greatsword 18/13(3d6+23) 4xClaws 16(1D8+9) => Rend 87%(1d8+23)
107 DPR.

Option 2 : Biped (Limbs, Claws, Large, Rend, Improved claws, Energy attack)
(Greatsword 19/14(3d6+24) 4xClaws 17(2D6+9+1D6) => Rend 92%(2d6+24+1d6)
140 DPR

The question is : Pounce is really worth the -30 dpr ?

Several questions to help you answer that:

How many other members of the party can dish out serious damage?
How important is alpha-strike damage to your party?
What do you expect encounters to look like where the difference will matter?
What does your initiative look like? Are the melee monsters likely to advance on you before you get to go?
Are those numbers final? Will items (or lack thereof), party buffs, etc, potentially / likely change your calculations?

If you are the only real damage dealer, you have to care more about your dpr. If you are likely to go before the monsters, you probably want pounce. If your role is to deal with foes that *don't* close into melee, you probably want pounce. If there are monsters that the party never wants to get a turn, you probably want pounce. If the module indicates large numbers of high-hp monsters, you probably want dpr.

Personally, I lean toward pounce simply because it's more fun to get a full attack.

[Divicius]

It's not RAW, but I always though centauroid forms should be able to use mounted feats as if mounted, with the exception of features that let you make Ride checks to avoid damage. If your DM agrees, that could make your damage skyrocket.

I'll talk to him about that... :smallbiggrin:

[HammeredWharf]

Reliability is very important in D&D. Relying on full attacks is awful in that regard.


What would you choose over Weapon focus ?

Oh, a lot of things. Snap Kick and Multiattack certainly spring to mind. Really depends on what you want. Weapon focus is a poor feat in general.

If you pick Travel Devotion, you'll be able to pseudo-pounce even without Pounce.

[Divicius]

Several questions to help you answer that:

How many other members of the party can dish out serious damage?
How important is alpha-strike damage to your party?
What do you expect encounters to look like where the difference will matter?
What does your initiative look like? Are the melee monsters likely to advance on you before you get to go?
Are those numbers final? Will items (or lack thereof), party buffs, etc, potentially / likely change your calculations?

If you are the only real damage dealer, you have to care more about your dpr. If you are likely to go before the monsters, you probably want pounce. If your role is to deal with foes that *don't* close into melee, you probably want pounce. If there are monsters that the party never wants to get a turn, you probably want pounce. If the module indicates large numbers of high-hp monsters, you probably want dpr.

Personally, I lean toward pounce simply because it's more fun to get a full attack.

Party of four : Bard, Inquisitor(archery),Warrior(shield+sword) and me.

I didn't read anything about the campaign, just know it's about the drows.

My initiative will probably be poor compared to the bard and the Inquisitor.

You guys have sold me the quadruped.:smallwink:

[ericgrau]

Your single attacks are about 25 dpr bringing the average to about 82 DPR without pounce, assuming half rounds are single attacks. Consistency is nice too. You may want a way around difficult terrain though to keep from ruining this advantage.

[Divicius]

Reliability is very important in D&D. Relying on full attacks is awful in that regard.



Oh, a lot of things. Snap Kick and Multiattack certainly spring to mind. Really depends on what you want. Weapon focus is a poor feat in general.

If you pick Travel Devotion, you'll be able to pseudo-pounce even without Pounce.

Multiattack is free since I've 3+ arms.
Snap Kick and Travel Devotion are not "Pathfinder only" I should have said it's PF material only.

[Psyren]

If you're only up against one big foe then pounce is less valuable, because you only have to move up to the foe once and then you can plant yourself and full-attack.

But if there are multiple foes that you needs to switch to throughout the encounter, or the foe is capable of kiting you, the DPR of the none-pounce build will drop considerably.

Pounce is recommended because it's reliable. Whether the enemy stands still, moves around, attacks you singly or attacks in groups, pounce will let you full-attack consistently.

[Divicius]

You may want a way around difficult terrain though to keep from ruining this advantage.

That's something I didnt thought about. I remember reading some feats about that....




If you're only up against one big foe then pounce is less valuable, because you only have to move up to the foe once and then you can plant yourself and full-attack.

But if there are multiple foes that you needs to switch to throughout the encounter, or the foe is capable of kiting you, the DPR of the none-pounce build will drop considerably.

Pounce is recommended because it's reliable. Whether the enemy stands still, moves around, attacks you singly or attacks in groups, pounce will let you full-attack consistently.

I've 2 lvl of Paladin to smite the big one for 170 dpr with the quadruped ! (still assuming AC 24)

[Person_Man]

It's been my personal experience that Pounce or free movement is essentially a "must have" for any melee-centric build.

You're almost never within reach of an enemy on the first round of combat.
You can Charge as a Standard Action during a Surprise Round.
If you're fighting more then multiple enemies, it's a fairly common occurrence to drop all enemies within reach and not be within 5 feet of another enemy.


Pounce or free movement isn't a big deal if you have other meaningful stuff to do. For example, a Summoner can Summon when not within reach of an enemy. But for a eidolon or Tier 4 or lower class that is basically doing nothing but melee, it's pretty much required.

It's also worth mentioning that if 3.5 material is usable, Pounce and free movement are ridiculously easy to get access to. Pathfinder only is somewhat more limited, but there are still a bunch of ways to get it by mid-high levels.

[Psyren]

I've 2 lvl of Paladin to smite the big one for 170 dpr with the quadruped ! (still assuming AC 24)

And again, if all your fights are against one big foe, you probably won't notice the difference or the non-pounce build will indeed come out ahead. But the moment there is a second foe out of melee range of the first the non-pounce build DPR starts to drop dramatically, and the more of those there are the more it will fall.

Smite is irrelevant here because it helps the pounce build as much the non-pounce one. Your two levels of paladin will be there no matter how you configure your eidolon.

[Divicius]

Thanks everyone, Pounce it is then.

Going to draw a 4 arms she-centaur with a Greatsword and claws. I have no idea how to show the 22 points of charisma :smallconfused:

[eggynack]

. I have no idea how to show the 22 points of charisma :smallconfused:
Charisma isn't necessarily attractiveness, even if it can be. You can just be a personage who is very convincing.

[Barstro]

Charisma isn't necessarily attractiveness, even if it can be. You can just be a personage who is very convincing.

I find attractive females very convincing.

Oddly, I do not have the same effect on them.

[Karoht]

I'm Building a Synthesist with 2 lvl of Paladin for our next campaign (Second Darkness). Half elf with 1/4 evolution bonus.
Since this adventure path ends around lvl 13-14, I'm focusing on the 10th level to see how it goes.

Character lvl 10, no buff, no smite vs AC 24
Feats : arcane strike, power attack, imp nat att, weapon focus (sword,claws)

Option 1 : Quadruped (2xLimbs, 2xClaws, Large, Rend, Pounce)
(Greatsword 18/13(3d6+23) 4xClaws 16(1D8+9) => Rend 87%(1d8+23)
107 DPR.

Option 2 : Biped (Limbs, Claws, Large, Rend, Improved claws, Energy attack)
(Greatsword 19/14(3d6+24) 4xClaws 17(2D6+9+1D6) => Rend 92%(2d6+24+1d6)
140 DPR

The question is : Pounce is really worth the -30 dpr ?

Dimensional Agility > Assault > Dervish > Savant. Wraps up by level 13, teleport pouncing begins at level 7. Savant is fun because you can flank with after images of yourself, and the rest of the party can flank with them too. Maybe combo that with a flanking teamwork feat like Precise Strike to get some more damage out of it.

If you want to go Biped you could be teleport/attacking by level 11. Quad getting you pounce really does mean that you just ignore any and all terrain problems or other combatants on the battlefield. You (tele-pounce) appear where you want to appear and murder that thing, then pick something else the following round and repeat the process. I tested this build out, it genuinely makes the Synthesist a heck of a lot more mobile without having to spend Evolutions on mobility, and it's just plain FUN. You are Xmen's Nightcrawler, with more limbs.

As a side note, if played to 20, it gets really silly when you get to Split Form and Twin Eidolon.

Combo in your plan for a few levels of Paladin and you should be a wrecking machine. If something is evil and you want it dead, Smite > Teleport Pounce > Murder > Next Target Please Sir!

Feat links under spoiler cut for easy reference.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-agility
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-assault
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-savant

[Barstro]

Dimensional Agility > Assault > Dervish > Savant. Wraps up by level 13, teleport pouncing begins at level 7.

Cute. If I were DM, I would do exactly what I want my DM to do and give so many encounters during the day that you would run out of spell slots needed to do this more than a few times.

But I sure want to have a BBEG with this power. That would be a fun fight.

[Divicius]

This is a very good idea.
I'm staying quadruped (there are still the first levels to go) and picking that chain as soon as I can.

Nice one.

[Nihilarian]

Cute. If I were DM, I would do exactly what I want my DM to do and give so many encounters during the day that you would run out of spell slots needed to do this more than a few times.

But I sure want to have a BBEG with this power. That would be a fun fight.The Synthethist can use Dimension Door up to 4 times as a spell-like ability (3 from levels, 1 from evolution) and can then cast it as a 3rd level spell (or from a higher level spell slot). Enough encounters to deplete all of the Summoner's Dimension Doors will likely also deplete the rest of the party's resources.

[Psyren]

Dimensional Agility > Assault > Dervish > Savant. Wraps up by level 13, teleport pouncing begins at level 7.

Fitting, since level 7 is exactly when you can shut this whole combo down with one spell :smalltongue:

[Nihilarian]

Fitting, since level 7 is exactly when you can shut this whole combo down with one spell :smalltongue:Not every enemy will have Dimensional Anchor.

As a side note, as cool as the Dimensional Agility chain is, for some builds it may be better to take Quicken Spell-like ability and forgo the feats after Dimensional Agility. YMMV.

[Psyren]

Not every enemy will have Dimensional Anchor.

True enough - just the dangerous ones. Since any BBEG without access to either the cleric or wizard lists is just asking for his ass to get kicked.

But against random beasts and mooks it will indeed work fine.

[Barstro]

The Synthethist can use Dimension Door up to 4 times as a spell-like ability (3 from levels, 1 from evolution)

I knew I should have taken the time to read about Synthesist (I'm standard summoner at heart). Oh well.

[Karoht]

True enough - just the dangerous ones. Since any BBEG without access to either the cleric or wizard lists is just asking for his ass to get kicked.

But against random beasts and mooks it will indeed work fine.
Not to mention that even if the Synth is Dlocked, they would still have Pounce if they picked Quadruped.
...and everything else they have going for them.

[eggynack]

True enough - just the dangerous ones. Since any BBEG without access to either the cleric or wizard lists is just asking for his ass to get kicked.

But against random beasts and mooks it will indeed work fine.
I don't know if that's entirely a fair argument. Sure, one could say that the most dangerous enemies have access to dimensional anchor, because they are pretty much necessarily a caster, but not every character that has access to dimensional anchor necessarily has dimensional anchor during a given fight. Really, compared to defenses like freedom of movement and mind blank (in 3.5, but I'm just listing examples of stuff that's often cited as a thing that all casters have), dimensional anchor is somewhat narrow, a decent amount less unconditional, and it has a higher action cost. I could expect some casters to have it, but I could also expect some casters to not have it, and the latter set of casters have the potential to be dangerous opponents.

[Karoht]

Don't forget, the caster has to hit with the Dimensional Anchor too.

Here's my suggested tactics for negating this.
1-Try to start every fight you can in concealment, or at the very least with some kind of cover. Preferably something that blocks line of sight/effect, rather than relying on something like Invisibility.
2-Wait until you have identified the casters. This means you are unlikely to strike in the first round.
3-Hold your action until the caster begins to cast something. Which will be targeted at someone else. Tele-pounce-murder. I find killing a caster in a single round is often the best way to shut down a caster. But even if you don't kill said caster, they now have to roll concentration to complete their casting (and they can't change targets), which at least precludes a chance of failure.
4-Consider grappling casters, but understand that Freedom of Movement isn't all that difficult to come by. Their CMD will be low, making them easy to grapple, and grappling makes casting much harder, but Freedom of Movement makes them immune to grapples. Personally, I would rather just blender them with 4 claws + bite + Greatsword.

Concerns:
-Contingencies. Buffs like Fire Shield/Vitriolic Mist where you take damage per hit, or anything that conveys a DR. But if a caster is buffed, chances are good you want to use Greater/Dispel Magic before striking. This is totally a judgement call. There might be better targets to shut down, their buffs can be hard to dispel, might be a waste of an action, might not.
-Beware enemies with Phase-Lock on their weapons. Also, you're going to want it on your Greatsword. It Dimensional Anchors a target, no save, no SR. You're free to tele-pounce while they are not, so long as you get the first strike.

[ericgrau]

True enough - just the dangerous ones. Since any BBEG without access to either the cleric or wizard lists is just asking for his ass to get kicked.

But against random beasts and mooks it will indeed work fine.

:smallconfused: Nets you just as many full attacks plus a bonus single attack on top of it all since the BBEG blew his turn casting dimensional anchor.

Well if only you should be so lucky. Round 1 he doesn't cast dimensional anchor because he doesn't know what you are. Round 2 you're already in melee range. Now he won't cast dimensional anchor because it's a totally wasted action. What you really need is a BBEG with mooks so you can trap him into blowing his turn.

Sometimes I think myself and the forums have vastly different definitions of "shut down".



Weapon Focus (Sword) and Weapon Focus (Claws) are fairly much two trap feats thats much better used otherwise
Normally I'd say weapon focus is giving her more DPR than power attack after buffs/gear and smite. But splitting into two weapons and then getting two feats for them really is not worth it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

One should keep in mind that often times enemies do come to you. Pounce may not be necessary if you have good reach and often fight in enclosed spaces.


True enough - just the dangerous ones. Since any BBEG without access to either the cleric or wizard lists is just asking for his ass to get kicked.

But against random beasts and mooks it will indeed work fine.

Dimensional Anchor is probably a wasted action even if it works you haven't shut down the Eidolon/Summoner he can still come up and rip you apart without dimensional door.