What do melee classes need in a party of casters?

[BoutsofInsanity]

What class features, if you have free reign, would you give to melee classes to make them

Make the melee class more versitile
Make them more combat effective
A party of semi opted wizards a reason to keep him/her around
Options cannot be fullcasting, and must maintain the flavor of a warrior beating your face in.


Back story below.


My party composition is a Telepath, Sorcerer, Druid, Necromancer, and a PF Ninja. My party is not Optimized. In fact me and the telepath are the only two who can opt. reasonably well.

Here is my query.

The players do not min/max extremely well. In fact, I have the most system master at the table. It just so happens that they are all playing full casters at this time. (Necromancer, Druid, Sorcerer, and a telepath.) I am playing a Non casting Paladin.

Now, this is not to say I am not useful. Without me, they would have kicked it a long time ago. They don't do defensive spells. So unless I soak the hits, they kind of die. (We are having lots of fun).

However, last fight, other then soaking damage and killing a few enemies, I didn't really feel like I was contributing. It wasn't fluffy enough. Comparetivly to everyone else causing earthquakes, fireballs, Fire Walls, psionic bolts of death etc... I didn't feel super cool.

My Dm and I agreed, that the tier 1 guys are pretty strong together and they do need me, but we want to shore up the weaknesses of my class while I am with the four full casters. Thus the hunt for class features begins.

My thoughts were...
A way to hit multiple enemies at once.
A way to put status effects on enemies
Pounce
A better charge mechanic
Something flashy. Nothing says more awesome and manly then when you swing your sword and it explodes.
Better movement options.
More effective tanking method.
Guys have fun with this one.

[eggynack]

I think that switching your class with one of the classes from the tome of battle would solve nearly all of your problems. You'd probably swap out for a crusader, while the ninja would presumably go swordsage. They're classes that do a lot of super cool things, shore up a lot of low tier melee weaknesses, and work quite well.

[Windstorm]

Use a warblade or crusader, probably leaning toward the crusader. Use martial study to grab a few iron heart maneuvers, and then take stormguard warrior (a 1-level warblade dip at mid-high levels helps here. Say crusader 8 warblade 2)

Take a level of paragnostic initiate somewhere in the build (or two) and then you can use its aid spell caster tactical options or take mage-slayer feats and get a custom item of anti magic field 2 or 3 times a day on command word (6*6*1800*(2/5))gp. Since nearly all of the martial class abilities are (ex) instead of supernatural or spell casting, the wizards have a reason to keep you around because you can operate in situations where they cannot, or you can use your aid actions.

Of use to your specific situation is the crusader stance thicket of blades, which essentially makes you a walking zone of "no you can't" for enemies, the AMF custom item just amplifies this. One thing to note is that you'll want some source of a good fly speed for times when you need to deal with things like grease and the like, a good source of that is a ring of solar wings from BoED, or if level buyoffs are allowed, take the half-celestial template. Good chunk of excellent template qualities and physical stats you can use as a crusader/wblade, and permanent non-magical flight.

[Psyren]

It's less about what the melee need and more about what challenges get thrown at the party. For instance if you're fighting enemies that use things like Dismissal and Dimension Lock, then summoning meat shields won't work out so well for team caster and the dedicated melee will be more valuable as a result. Ditto enemies that dispel or otherwise counter BFC and shapeshifting abilities.

Without effective battlefield control or summoned frontliners, melee value shoots up pretty quickly.

[BoutsofInsanity]

I should have edited the post. Barring TOB as an answer. What features would you give a melee class to shore them up in effectiveness and fun to play?

I would like actual game mechanics or features that you come up with.

[Hecuba]

I should have edited the post. Barring TOB as an answer. What features would you give a melee class to shore them up in effectiveness and fun to play?

I would like actual game mechanics or features that you come up with.

Are you asking for houserules or specific builds?

[eggynack]

I should have edited the post. Barring TOB as an answer. What features would you give a melee class to shore them up in effectiveness and fun to play?

I would like actual game mechanics or features that you come up with.
But those basically are the actual game mechanics or features I would come up with, were I a skilled game designer. You need to pull from a reasonably array of abilities, with strong flavor, that scales well. That's what ToB is.

[Windstorm]

I should have edited the post. Barring TOB as an answer. What features would you give a melee class to shore them up in effectiveness and fun to play?

I would like actual game mechanics or features that you come up with.

Part of the problem is that ToB at this level of play is the only realistic option if you want to be more than a one-trick pony.

As for features, give a fighter or paladin a copy of the warblade's ability to swap weapon specific feats with some time for familiarization. This at least allows them to have the right tool for the job instead of one tool for all jobs.

I can't really provide any more insight without knowing what types of encounters your DM prefers. Is he heavy on casters? Does he use a lot of summoned creatures or are you usually fighting mundane monsters? What terrain types are you fighting in?

All of the above are major considerations for fighting style, and reflects the difference of tier involved. The wizard, Druid and cleric are flexible enough that the above questions don't matter. The martial character (aside from ToB, though they're still somewhat affected) does not have that level of flexibility and can change in relative power rather drastically depending on the terrain and type of enemy.

[demigodus]

One idea would be setting ECL equal to CR for things with minimal Su and SLA's

As I understand it, CR X is supposed to mean that the critter is an equal challenge to a single character of ECL X. However, the system assumes that monsters are run by a brain-dead DM and the PCs are run by intelligent players, hence why you have something like the Succubus which is CR 7 but ECL 12, because the players are expected to abuse the crap out of its At Will abilities, but the DM is expected to flounder around cluelessly with them.

Validity of that reasoning aside, something like a Stone Giant has no Supernatural or Spell-Like abilities. It is exactly as effective in the hands of a DM, as the hands of a player. So, if it is CR 8, it really should have an Effective Character Level of 8 as well.

Polymorphing into something to overshadow your melee buddy is a heck of a lot harder when you need Caster Level 12 to gain the stats your melee buddy had at level 8, except he has better BAB, more HP, armor, his gear didn't meld with him...

[Windstorm]

One idea would be setting ECL equal to CR for things with minimal Su and SLA's

As I understand it, CR X is supposed to mean that the critter is an equal challenge to a single character of ECL X. However, the system assumes that monsters are run by a brain-dead DM and the PCs are run by intelligent players, hence why you have something like the Succubus which is CR 7 but ECL 12, because the players are expected to abuse the crap out of its At Will abilities, but the DM is expected to flounder around cluelessly with them.

Validity of that reasoning aside, something like a Stone Giant has no Supernatural or Spell-Like abilities. It is exactly as effective in the hands of a DM, as the hands of a player. So, if it is CR 8, it really should have an Effective Character Level of 8 as well.

Polymorphing into something to overshadow your melee buddy is a heck of a lot harder when you need Caster Level 12 to gain the stats your melee buddy had at level 8, except he has better BAB, more HP, armor, his gear didn't meld with him...

CR is actually supposed to challenge a party of 4 at the same ECL as the CR.
I agree though, removing some of the Level Adjustments on templates for the fighter character is probably the only universal way to make a fighter/paladin into a tier1 equivalent without turning them into copies of the ToB martial classes.

[NotScaryBats]

What class features, if you have free reign, would you give to melee classes to make them

Make the melee class more versitile
Make them more combat effective
A party of semi opted wizards a reason to keep him/her around
Options cannot be fullcasting, and must maintain the flavor of a warrior beating your face in.




If I had free reign, I'd give all melee 8 or 10 skill points a level.

I'd give them scaling attack and damage bonuses greater than Full BAB (IE a 16 str cleric vs a 16 str fighter, only difference is 1 BAB on some levels, I'd change that)

I'd give them a climb speed early, a swim speed, and the ability to use ranged weapons just as well as melee with no extra cost. If you suddenly are fighting flying enemies, oh well, time to pull out the bow and actually contribute even if you haven't built entirely around ranged combat.

I'd give them super skill 'spells' like the ability to use your use rope skill to make a bridge across a chasm like Dark Way, etc.

[Ansem]

Melee players are supposed to be buffed up by the casters.

[eggynack]

Melee players are supposed to be buffed up by the casters.
No, they can be buffed by the casters. There's no absolute onus or responsibility there, and the game's design actively incentivizes you away from buffing other characters to some extent by making many of the best options personal. Giving most or all personal buff spells a touch range could be a good idea on that basis, though you'd probably have to change persist spell to accommodate the change if you're in the "touch spells can't be persisted" camp. Then again, removing a lot of persist's utility might be a good thing. Then again, then again, removing a lot of persist's utility unless you're tossing around even more potent cheese than before, like ocular spell, might be a bad thing.

This has become an odd tangent. Anyway, the point is that casters don't have to be buff bots if they don't want to. Also, being hasted doesn't substantially alter a mundane class' quantity of interesting powers, and the same is true of a decent majority of buff spells. A fighter with bull's strength is still a fighter.

[demigodus]

Melee players are supposed to be buffed up by the casters if those spell-slots/buff-time can't be used more efficiently.

fixed that for you.

Seriously, if a caster contributes more to a fight by casting an x-level Save-or-suck than by spending his turn using an x-level spell to buff the melee, than buffing the melee is not team work. Teamwork is the caster casting the save-or-suck, and the melee living with being less useful for the fight.

Also, if you are dependent on having party casters wasting their turns buffing you so that you can contribute, you might want to reconsider your role in the party. Because that is not teamwork on your end.

[Zaydos]

Full attack as a standard action and the ability to instead make a single attack against all enemies within your melee reach (at your highest attack bonus) also as a standard action.

For movement:
Climb and Swim speeds are options.
Super leaps (still limited by movement speed per round but with 3 or 4 times max height and 2 or 3 times max horizontal distance). Also ability to make a single attack as part of a double move jump (or as a standard action at any point in the jump) which gains +50% damage per extra attack you'd have in a full attack routine due to BAB (a cinematic means of making melee attacks against flying creatures)

These are just vague ideas off the top of my head.

[Segev]

Something I've been contemplating specifically as a Fighter class feature:

Extra Action (Ex): Fighters train to make the most of every motion and to hone their bodies' muscle memory to perfection. At 3rd level, a fighter gains an extra action - which must be swift or immediate - each round. At 5th level, he may use his extra action as a move action, if he so chooses. At 11th level, his options expand further, allowing him to use his extra action as a standard action. At 15th level, he gains an additional extra action, which may only be a swift action. At 20th level, one of his extra actions may be a full round action, and he still has a second extra swift action. (This redesign also tweaks him to have a bonus feat at level 19, and any "BAB +20" or "Fighter 20" prereqs to feats are knocked down to 19, instead.)


It's worth noting that this is not restricted to combat utility; a fighter with extra move actions is remarkably fast, since he can move his speed an extra time each six seconds, for instance.


For a paladin with no casting ability, I would suggest something like allowing him to act from his mount's back without penalty, no matter what actions his mount takes. So he could have an effective "pounce" attack by having his mount move (or double move, or charge) and himself using a full attack action.

You might also consider picking up Leadership; Paladins have high Charisma, typically. Having a retinue to help do your bidding can go a long way out of combat. A personal "buffer" team of low-level casters can provide you combat strength your party casters wouldn't have to spend time and resources providing you, as well.


Another thought: Patrol the Line (Ex): You draw a line and dictate that none shall cross it. This class feature takes a move-equivalent action to invoke. This line must be no longer than what you can cover in one move action. If you are mounted, you can use your mount's move speed instead. This line must be continuous, but need not be straight (and, despite the name, could even be a circle drawn around your party or some foe). As long as you do not leave the squares making up this path, you are considered to be patrolling it, and may treat any square along it as the one you are occupying for determining which squares you threaten and what is within your reach for melee attacks. If you leave it, you must spend another move-equivalent action later on in order to re-establish it.



This power is effectively a tanking ability that lets you control the battlefield to an extent. You force people to maneuver around a fairly large region or be subject to AoOs from you, and you can attack anybody that gets too close to it.

[Captnq]

Three things:
1. More HP damage.
2. Better chance to hit.
3. More attacks.

Look, honestly? You will never compete with the casters. So let the casters do what casters do. Cast.

You? Get your one attack up to insane amounts of damage and use it frequently and often.

SPEED. SPEED. SPEED.

I've been running 36+ level campaign now that started at 1st. This is like my... third? Third campaign I've taken from 1st to epic, but this one has just gone into over time. I keep expecting it to blow up, but the players never QUITE take it over the edge.

But what I've noticed it, the spellcasters solve many problems, and I can create many monsters to resist those casters, but it's rather hard to simply ignore 600 HPs of damage on a blow.

Increase your reach, take cleave, get robilar's gambit, there's a few others. One of my players deliberately runs past the NPCs, triggers an AoO, when it LOOKS like they are going to attack her, she gets an attack. If she hits, she get's an attack if she crits (half the time) and then if they miss, she gets an attack. She had to work at getting unlimited AoO, but she did it. And she uses it.

EDIT: Originally she had this recursive loop that basically gave her like a theoretical infinite number of attacks, but I made her stop that.

Then there are magic items that make it so your attacks are a touch attack for a round. If you get 40+attacks a round, have spring attack, and can run 180 feet in a round, guess what happens? The enemy dies before the wizard can cast spells.

That should be your focus. Hit hard. hit FAST. If you aren't going first EVERY combat and you aren't killing at least half the enemy in the first round, you aren't building your PC right.

Because when you get your crit multiplier up to x6 and your threat range up to 11-20 and your base damage is 16d6+25 and all your attacks are against touch AC, trust me, I don't care HOW many save-or-sucks your friends have. You will take someone out. Then you get a 5 foot step because of your superior cleave, hit again. And again. And again. And then flatten everyone within 20 feet because you have reach. Forget anyone moving near you because the very act of moving near you provokes an average of 2 attacks.

Yeah, it's a 36th level game. But she was pulling this crap at 16th. I won't even go into what she does now.

Get greater mighty wallop cast on you in a way that it's usable in every combat. Buy potions by the gallon if you have to. make them as oil, and use oil chambers to spray yourself with greater mighty wallop oil as a swift action. Always have it brewed at maximum effectiveness. Have an NPC artificer make it to spec.

Greater magic weapon as well. Get oversized weapons that are oversized for a Choo-Choo Train.

Power attack like there was no tomorrow. Get tiny creatures to live in your clothes to use Aid other on you. Have one mount your head and use riding skill to help you avoid blows.

Get magic items that make your attacks touch attacks. get multiples and switch them out between combats. If you have to take more then three rounds to murder 120 people, YOU ARE TOO SLOW.

Cut off your arms and get new ones with slam attacks. Get extra limbs like tentacles. Put tentacles on your tentacles. put spikes on your tentacles that are on tentacles. Get Tentacle Extenders!

POISON ON EVERYTHING.

Seriously, you have yet to power game. Embrace your destiny. Let your hate fill you and feel the POWER of the DARK SIDE! Join us...

We have cookies.

[Captnq]

Or, just get this:

Crescent Knife
Dragon Magazine #275 is, essentially, and addendum to the exotic weapons lists. In it is included the Crescent Knife. Its stats are listed as:

Cost: 20gp, Damage: 1d3, Critical: x2, Weight: 1lb, Type: Slashing.

What makes the Knife nifty is its special ability:

This weapon, which resembles a crescent-shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately

make it Oversized then balanced to make it one handed. Now you can two hand it and it does 1d6

Also add aptitude. then take the feat lightning maces. Then add Kadori Resin, then keen, then feat after feat to increase the crit range to 16-20/x4 The ideal range for power attacking. Then get roundabout kick.

So, you crit 25% of the time. You get two attacks for every attack you normally make. If you crit, you get two more attacks. If any of your two attacks get a crit, then you get two more attacks.

I forget the specifics past that. Originally the combination added up to crit on an 9-20/x6, but I forget how she did that. As you can see, once she got lucky and got in a few crits, they snowballed until the enemy was dead. Combined with Robilar's Gambit, people just stopped attacking her after she turned the first enemy into ribbons.



Do that. Show them why Hit Point Damage is a scary thing.

[Vhaidara]

I for one had a lot of fun using the paladin rework from Grod_The_Giant's wiki. They get a lot of more active tanking abilities (literally diving into an allies square to take a hit), and some decent offensive abilities (better smite on a 1d4 round cool down, gets lower with level, as well as auto-blessed and eventually auto-holy weapons). There's a link in his Sig, and I can't track down one of his posts right now (posting from my phone), but it's some fun stuff.

[Metahuman1]

A Factotum with a Quick Razor and some massive Stealth ability's along with things like Misqueto Bite Skill Trick, Iai-jutsu Focus and Knowledge devotion, and a Dark Chaos Shuffle/Psionic Reformation applied to a Chained Heroics spell that hit him and a hireling for a metric tone of feats converted into Fount of Inspiration Up to his Int Mod (Or the Maximum of his Int Mod's potential growth so that every time that mod get's a +1 he get's more Inspiration points.) and the TWF line could have quite a bit of versatility. Maybe throw him some kinda Affiliation that Supes up his Knowledge Checks and grants Jack of all Trades as a feat so he doesn't even need to sink ranks into knowledge skills to use Knowledge Devotion to best effect.

Get your DM to let you have Swift Hunter also stack Wild Shape Ranger's Wild Shape Progression and Mystic Rangers Casting Progression and then take both variants, maybe with Sword of the Arcane Order and Improved/Superior Unarmed Strike and an Affiliation that gives some Turn Undead out so you can DMM?

If your DM likes Psionics Psi-Warrior's good, maybe do a Tash Build with Incarnum Recharge Trick and the previously mentioned Chained Heroics + DCS/Psy-reform to work that into the build along with an action economy breaker combo so that you can start combat and on the first round always Fully Buff and fully Recharge and go to town?

I'm told the Binder, Duskblade, Incarnate and Totemist all make effective Tier 3 combatants more or less out of the box, check one of them out perhaps?

Take Bard with that extra feats trick and a dip into Monk and Seeker of the Song and then just Optimize Inspire Courage and snag TWF with a Spiked Chian and Unarmed Strike?

Lastly, Consider taking a tip form the Tier System and Gestalting 2 classes that are lower Tier then what the party currently has?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The only class feature mundane characters need to compete with casters is:

I Play On Hard Mode (Ex): The player of this character gives up ultimate cosmic power... for the sheer challenge. He is allowed to optimize more than the rest of the group.

---

If you mean actual in-game mechanics for equally optimized characters, then the following help narrow (but not eliminate) the gap:

(1) Free flowing money. Mundanes benefit from gear more than casters, especially when they pick up the necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851).

(2) Pounce/Free Movement. There are numerous ways to get this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) already, but if you're talking about a low-op group then giving it for free (or pointing noobs in the right direction) is an option.

(3) Make their "trick(s)" more reliable
Pouncing barbarian? Find ways to make his charge more reliable, like the scout's Flawless Stride and various ways to charge in a non-straight-line. Intimidating Zhentarim Fighter? Give him a class feature to bypass or mitigate immunities. Dungeon Crasher? Rule that the ground is a "solid object" and give him a flight item. Archer? Give him a force bow and let it pierce wind walls. Flanking rogue? Point to various ways to bypass sneak attack immunity.

(4) Give them something to do outside of combat.
This can be tricky depending on optimization level, but if you have nice reasonable caster players then it shouldn't be too hard. By that I mean, the caster could use divinations to track down the baddie, but why waste spell slots when the ranger can track him down just as easily via mundane means? Save those slots for kill shots, or different types of divination at least. Ultimately this means giving the mundanes more skills, and UMD as a class skill for everyone. Free flowing money helps a lot with this as well.

[Segev]

Or, just get this:

Crescent Knife
Dragon Magazine #275 is, essentially, and addendum to the exotic weapons lists. In it is included the Crescent Knife. Its stats are listed as:

Cost: 20gp, Damage: 1d3, Critical: x2, Weight: 1lb, Type: Slashing.

What makes the Knife nifty is its special ability:

This weapon, which resembles a crescent-shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately

It's worth noting that this is a 3.0 weapon, statted as "Small."

You can find it here (http://kaos-incorporated.com/creepyguyinawhitevan/dnd/D&D%203rd%20Edition%20(Dungeons%20and%20Dragons)%20-%20New%20Exotic%20Weapons%20(Dragon%20Magazine%20% 23275).pdf). While there, take a look at the Scourge; it's Medium, which I believe translates to "one-handed."

Dual wield not two crescent knives, but a crescent knife and a scourge. 3 attacks in your on hand, 2 in your off.

[OldTrees1]

You are a paladin you say? and your DM is willing to buff you with class features? We have mostly free reign?

Fun.

1) Full Attacks are now a Standard Action
2) At 3rd and 13th levels gain an additional Move Action per turn. At 8th and 18th levels gain an additional Standard Action per turn.

3) More attack options to use during your full attack. Make a list of conditions. Next to each condition your DM marks if it takes 1, 2 or 3 hits on the same target. Each condition has a save DC of 10 + 1/2 your HD + Your Primary Ability Modifier
Ex: Sickened 1 rd takes 1 hit. Dazed 1 rd takes 2 hits. Sleep 1 min takes 3 hits.

4) +2 skill points per level. Choose 6 skills to add as class skills.

5) Something that uses Immediate Actions
Immediate Action: Move up to your speed
Immediate Action: Make a single attack
Immediate Action: Make another save against each effect/condition you are under that offered a save.
6) Every 5 levels gain an additional Swift/Immediate action per turn.

[Arbane]

I should have edited the post. Barring TOB as an answer. What features would you give a melee class to shore them up in effectiveness and fun to play?

Exalted Charms.

It the spellcasters are resurrecting the dead and rewriting reality, the fighter-types kinda need abilities like cutting their way through space-time or punching someone so hard that they cease to exist if they want to keep up.

[Captnq]

It's worth noting that this is a 3.0 weapon, statted as "Small."

You can find it here (http://kaos-incorporated.com/creepyguyinawhitevan/dnd/D&D%203rd%20Edition%20(Dungeons%20and%20Dragons)%20-%20New%20Exotic%20Weapons%20(Dragon%20Magazine%20% 23275).pdf). While there, take a look at the Scourge; it's Medium, which I believe translates to "one-handed."

Dual wield not two crescent knives, but a crescent knife and a scourge. 3 attacks in your on hand, 2 in your off.

Well, each crescent knife turns one attack into two. But you are correct at lower levels, when a scourge turns 1 attack into three. Unless you are playing with complete warrior's update. They neutered the damn thing.

My player also suggested Wrathful healing and Visious. +2d6 to base damage to the enemy, +1d6 damage to you, you heal half the damage inflicted. Combined with power attack, lightning maces, roundabout kick, you can get a nice rolling set of attacks going, especially with a little great cleave action.

Oh. there is also Lady's Gambit, if you are a follower of the red night. take damage up to your level, half of the damage translates into +1 to hit and the other half into +1 damage for every melee attack for the rest of the round. Combined with Wrathful healing, you won't miss, yet you will heal all your self-inflicted damage every round.

[BoutsofInsanity]

You guys are awesome. Everyone one of the posts has actually contributed in some way. :smallcool:!

I like the leap attack, that seems pretty awesome.

I like pounce

The immediate reactions seem pretty smart

The conditional effects for full attacks seems good.

I think 4th edition marks from the "tank" classes are a good idea.

Ways to full attack or Whirlwind attack as a standard seem also strong.

Other possible thoughts might be ability to swift drink potions or items.

Perhaps rerolling saves might also be good as well. Ty and keep them coming.

[Zaydos]

I think 4th edition marks from the "tank" classes are a good idea.

This is probably actually my favorite thing from 4e. I did love playing a Swordmage (and a rogue was also fun).

[OldTrees1]

7) Martial characters are so fast they can make some minor skill checks as non-actions to gain advantages:
Opposed Balance check
-Unbalance the opponent-
Victory: Their AC decreases
Victory by 5: They are flat-footed
Victory by 10: Attacks against them have an increased critical threat range

Sense Motive check opposed by Bluff check
-Predict the opponent-
Victory: Fortification
Victory by 5: Increased AC
Victory by 10: Miss Chance