Changing [Creation] Spells to Evocation

[Zaydos]

The PHB has this to say about Evocation

Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of
power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out
of nothing.

So why are [Creation] spells Conjuration :smallconfused:

What would be the effects of making the [Creation] subschool an evocation subschool and with it all Conjuration [Creation] spells into Evocation [Creation]? And just because it will matter let's say that Shadow Evocation cannot copy Evocation [Creation] spells.

[Werephilosopher]

It would take a way a lot of the spells that let Conjurers step on the Evoker's toes, and would certainly add a bit of appeal to making a specialist Evoker. But why assume Shadow Evocation can't replicate such spells? :smallconfused:

[Zaydos]

It would take a way a lot of the spells that let Conjurers step on the Evoker's toes, and would certainly add a bit of appeal to making a specialist Evoker. But why assume Shadow Evocation can't replicate such spells? :smallconfused:

2 reasons (in order of importance):
1) I couldn't remember the details of how Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration worked (or if Shadow Conjuration could copy Conjuration [Creation]).
2) To prevent it getting sidetracked with a conversation about whether this makes Illusion more potent as a school or how it's pointless because Illusion can still do anything meaningful Evocation can.

[Waker]

So why are [Creation] spells Conjuration :smallconfused:
The short answer is that the developers just kinda threw darts at a board to determine where spells were assigned. Why else would Conjuration have spells that can create walls, teleport, summon outsiders and heal/resurrect all in the same school?

What would be the effects of making the [Creation] subschool an evocation subschool and with it all Conjuration [Creation] spells into Evocation [Creation]? And just because it will matter let's say that Shadow Evocation cannot copy Evocation [Creation] spells.
Generally it would mean that Evocation would be just a little bit harder to drop. In the end targetting HP is still one of the lesser roles that a spellcaster can fill, but with damaging Conjuration spells the only reason to keep Evocation was a handful of Force spells and Contingency. Moving the Creation subschool will make the Conjuration school slightly less independent and solidify Evocations place as the School of Hurt.
As an unintended side effect, you would also be giving the Warmage some help by adding new spells available via his Advanced Learning.

Edit: Wizard's who drop Evocation would also lose Mage Armor, which might crimp some styles.

[Phelix-Mu]

The ancient reason for this, from way back in some earlier edition IIRC, is that the stone created by, let's say, wall of stone, came from somewhere. Probably the Elemental Plane of Earth or something. So, technically, it was being conjured.

I'm not sure it works that way anymore. And conjuration has metastasized into quite the overpowered school of magic. I fully support efforts to trim the list somehow.

[Nettlekid]

The ancient reason for this, from way back in some earlier edition IIRC, is that the stone created by, let's say, wall of stone, came from somewhere. Probably the Elemental Plane of Earth or something. So, technically, it was being conjured.

I'm not sure it works that way anymore. And conjuration has metastasized into quite the overpowered school of magic. I fully support efforts to trim the list somehow.

Weirdly though, I'm pretty sure I recently saw Fireball described as being fire plucked from the Elemental Plane of Fire and used as a weapon. If that's the case, then it would make sense that Wall of Stone would similarly be an Evocation spell. Or Fireball would be Conjuration. They should be the same, either way.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Orb of X spells. Those are usually the go-to for how Conjuration bullies Evocation.

[Phelix-Mu]

The major dynamic is earlier editions was one or two other schools of magic that have since gone away. Alteration used to be pretty good, and I seem to remember invocation or something.

Anyway, they used to have more schools and (generally speaking) less spells on the spell lists. Now more stuff ended up in conjuration. Guess they didn't really think that through.

[Nettlekid]

The major dynamic is earlier editions was one or two other schools of magic that have since gone away. Alteration used to be pretty good, and I seem to remember invocation or something.

Anyway, they used to have more schools and (generally speaking) less spells on the spell lists. Now more stuff ended up in conjuration. Guess they didn't really think that through.

I think Invocation turned into Evocation. Faerun's 3.0 Spelldancer says you can't Spelldance "Invocation and Necromancy" spells, but I don't know why, since usually it's Illusion, Enchantment, and Necromancy which are unable to be tapped by Weave stuff.

I think Teleporting makes sense for Conjuration, because I could imagine it working on the same principle as summoning, but it's as though you're summoning yourself elsewhere. Healing should definitely be Transmutation though.

[Vhaidara]

Healing is conjuration because you conjure positive energy. Which is actually more in line with evocation (summoning elemental energy).

Honestly, my groups go further back and put healing and rezzing in Necromancy. If you mess with life force, it's Necromancy.

[Rubik]

Healing should definitely be Transmutation though.You misspelled "Necromancy."

[Zaydos]

The short answer is that the developers just kinda threw darts at a board to determine where spells were assigned. Why else would Conjuration have spells that can create walls, teleport, summon outsiders and heal/resurrect all in the same school?

Generally it would mean that Evocation would be just a little bit harder to drop. In the end targetting HP is still one of the lesser roles that a spellcaster can fill, but with damaging Conjuration spells the only reason to keep Evocation was a handful of Force spells and Contingency. Moving the Creation subschool will make the Conjuration school slightly less independent and solidify Evocations place as the School of Hurt.
As an unintended side effect, you would also be giving the Warmage some help by adding new spells available via his Advanced Learning.

Edit: Wizard's who drop Evocation would also lose Mage Armor, which might crimp some styles.

I must note that the Fog spells, Grease, Glitterdust, and Web are also all Conjuration [Creation] and about 1/2 of the Conjuration spells below 6th level in the PHB fall under it.


Weirdly though, I'm pretty sure I recently saw Fireball described as being fire plucked from the Elemental Plane of Fire and used as a weapon. If that's the case, then it would make sense that Wall of Stone would similarly be an Evocation spell. Or Fireball would be Conjuration. They should be the same, either way.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Orb of X spells. Those are usually the go-to for how Conjuration bullies Evocation.

I've heard that too, that Evocation actually draws energy from elemental planes. Can't remember from where, though.


The major dynamic is earlier editions was one or two other schools of magic that have since gone away. Alteration used to be pretty good, and I seem to remember invocation or something.

Anyway, they used to have more schools and (generally speaking) less spells on the spell lists. Now more stuff ended up in conjuration. Guess they didn't really think that through.

The schools were in 1e (I don't think the white box had them): Abjuration, Alteration, Conjuration/Summoning, Divination, Enchantment/Charm, Evocation (called Evocation/Invocation in 2e), Illusion/Phantasm, Necromancy. In 2e (maybe a 1e source book) they introduced Lesser Divination (i.e. Lv 3 or lower divination spells) as something that couldn't be banned for specialists.

They didn't have more schools, but some spells have really been scrambled (1e light spells were Alteration i.e. Transmutation, and Shield was Evocation for example), and spells like Stinking Cloud and Web used to be Evocation not Conjuration. There were also a lot fewer spells (no 2nd level conjuration spells on the wizard list in 1e). 2e added a lot of Conjuration staples to the PHB and also general specialization (at least in the PHB) which meant schools actually mattered and adds such spells as Melf's Acid Arrow, Glitterdust, and Grease (although Stinking Cloud remains Evocation and Fog Cloud is Transmutation); it also had dual school spells as a fairly common thing.

And this is the tangent that led me to making this thread. 1e Conjuration [Creation] = Evocation, 2e it was about half and half split.


Healing is conjuration because you conjure positive energy. Which is actually more in line with evocation (summoning elemental energy).

Honestly, my groups go further back and put healing and rezzing in Necromancy. If you mess with life force, it's Necromancy.

Yeah that came up in the conversation I had that prompted this thread.