3.5 gestalt build advice

[SliceandDiceKid]

Half Giant gestalt character starting from level 1. Going to 20. I'm building off a shilelagh quarterstaff. Modified Vow of poverty rules to only require one feat. Planning to PrC into fist of the forest for the monk side from 7-9. Any ideas for classes after 9 or PrCes?

Our modified VoP removes exalted feats with regular feats at lesser progression. One at 1st, then 4th, 8th, etc.

Stats rolled are
Str 14
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 17
Cha 8

I'm trying to maximize my unarmed damage eventually. But grappling and quarterstaff are easy mode at 1st level. Also I've been granted large damage unarmed (I know it's not Raw).

Other two party members are a barb/monk who will go bear warrior and a barb/ranger. We're taking turns DMing but all agree its a campaign against civilization. Almost always killing humans on sight. It's been entertaining so far. I'd appreciate any suggestions at all. Thanks in advance.

[Rebel7284]

Ok, so one side is monk into FotF, the other is ???

Based on the druid spell part, I am guessing druid?

In which case you're way ahead of the other players. =)

edit: as for interesting things to do, you can go Stoneblessed -> Deepwarden for Con to AC AGAIN. Super fun when you wildshape into something with insane Con. =)

[Jack_Simth]

Well, Druid//Monk is not a bad one, although I might suggest Druid//Ninja. Better skills, trapfinding, Wis-based Swift action invisibility, Sudden Strike, and Wis to AC all mix well when you get Wildshape (turn into something with Pounce and you'll see what I mean). Oh yes, and you dump the LN alignment restriction for a Neutral(Any), which is handy.

At low levels, though, I'd suggest backing off from combat, and getting a solid animal companion - at 1st, a Riding Dog, and at 4th, one of: A cat with pounce (Pounce really helps end fights on the first round), an ape (solid bruiser), or a dire bat (for flight).

[SliceandDiceKid]

Yes druid monk. Sorry. New to the forums and definitely posted the thread twice... :/

Doesn't deep warden require dwarf? Assuming the previously mentioned item circumvents that.

[eggynack]

Well, the biggest changes I would make is swapping out improved toughness and cleave, and moving natural spell to 6th. That'd likely mean making your 1st level VoP feat power attack, and as your two new feats, maybe pick up exalted wild shape at 8th, because it's reasonably thematically appropriate as well as awesome, and at 9th, maybe a summoning feat of some kind. The specifics on that usually depend on book access/setting, because all of the best summoning feats are oddly out of the way, so you should likely mention what that is.

For the class part of the equation, it doesn't look like you're getting all that much out of the monk levels after the first two, which is pretty common. Perhaps consider other melee dips, like fighter, or even something from tome of battle if you really seek to make things interesting. For the druid half, there aren't really that many great druid PrC's, but if you're going the ultra-good route, maybe take some lion of Talisid. I'm not entirely sure how your alignment looks, by the way, because monks are always lawful, VoP users are always good, and druids can't be lawful and good. If you have some altered alignment restrictions, it's a thing worth mentioning, because taking barbarian levels is a reasonable plan.

As for the shillelagh quarterstaff thing, you're probably going to want the ability to wild shape and quarterstaff things at the same time, so consider using fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40), which you can do, cause your type is giant. The fifth level trade in particular loses nothing and grants the ability to manifest hands in a wild shape, so that's pretty awesome. I'm actually not entirely sure what you're trying to do here, because druids push towards natural weapons, monks and fist of the forest push towards unarmed strikes, and using a quarterstaff is neither of those. Being a bear with a quarterstaff is pretty awesome though. Other spells worth looking into for quarterstaff combat are brambles (SpC, 38), spikes (SpC, 202), and entangling staff (SpC, 83). The first two aren't nearly as good as shillelagh, and entangling staff isn't as much about the face beating, but they're decent for the archetype.

Edit: By the by, it's worth note that even if you removed the monk half of the gestalt and just built the character normal-style, you'd still be the most powerful character in the party by a long shot. It may be worth considering playing a not-gestalt character in a gestalt game as a result.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Thanks for the input, jack! I'll definitely look closer at ninja! As for backing off from combat, I'm totally committed to reckless combat. And while I'm using my animal companion in combat, I have determined for RP (druid) that I'd never ask it to risk it's well-being on my behalf. I actually pick up and carry my wolf everywhere I go. My quarterstaff (only item) will eventually just be a chew tow/tool. I hug him, pet him, and constantly risk myself if I think there's any potential for harm to come to him.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Well, the biggest changes I would make is swapping out improved toughness and cleave, and moving natural spell to 6th. That'd likely mean making your 1st level VoP feat power attack, and as your two new feats, maybe pick up exalted wild shape at 8th, because it's reasonably thematically appropriate as well as awesome, and at 9th, maybe a summoning feat of some kind. The specifics on that usually depend on book access/setting, because all of the best summoning feats are oddly out of the way, so you should likely mention what that is.

Power attack would be worthless at lvl 1, with 0 BAB and I'm sorry I didn't clarify, but while I have taken VoP I do plan to turn sour relatively soon. It's more a mind over matter philosophy as we're playing it than it is a morality as it was intended.
I'd be interested to know more summoning feats besides the double duration and aug summ.

For the class part of the equation, it doesn't look like you're getting all that much out of the monk levels after the first two, which is pretty common. Perhaps consider other melee dips, like fighter, or even something from tome of battle if you really seek to make things interesting. For the druid half, there aren't really that many great druid PrC's, but if you're going the ultra-good route, maybe take some lion of Talisid. I'm not entirely sure how your alignment looks, by the way, because monks are always lawful, VoP users are always good, and druids can't be lawful and good. If you have some altered alignment restrictions, it's a thing worth mentioning, because taking barbarian levels is a reasonable plan.

The only reasons I want monk for 6 lvls are the unarmed progression, ac, and feat. Emphasis on unarmed damage in wild shape.

As for the shillelagh quarterstaff thing, you're probably going to want the ability to wild shape and quarterstaff things at the same time, so consider using fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40), which you can do, cause your type is giant. The fifth level trade in particular loses nothing and grants the ability to manifest hands in a wild shape, so that's pretty awesome. I'm actually not entirely sure what you're trying to do here, because druids push towards natural weapons, monks and fist of the forest push towards unarmed strikes, and using a quarterstaff is neither of those. Being a bear with a quarterstaff is pretty awesome though. Other spells worth looking into for quarterstaff combat are brambles (SpC, 38), spikes (SpC, 202), and entangling staff (SpC, 83). The first two aren't nearly as good as shillelagh, and entangling staff isn't as much about the face beating, but they're decent for the archetype.

While my original concept was a dire ape with a quarterstaff, I quickly realized I can still perform unarmed strikes in wild shape (elbows, knees, hipcheck, etc). And monk with a quarterstaff doesn't seem out of character at all to me, and while opinions may vary, I'd say flurry of blows with a quarterstaff seems a piece of lore that would argue my case.

Edit: By the by, it's worth note that even if you removed the monk half of the gestalt and just built the character normal-style, you'd still be the most powerful character in the party by a long shot. It may be worth considering playing a not-gestalt character in a gestalt game as a result.

Hope this response doesn't look crazy jumbled. And we're doing gestalt to make the most preposterous characters we can while not entirely breaking the game. Part of my character is RPing a Hulkedque individual. I see beauty in nature and brutality appeals greatly when wondering what to do with humans and their civilizations. I've never played druid before and animal companion looked interesting, then VoP monk seemed to compliment wild shape well. Let me know if something doesn't work RAW unless I've mentioned we modified it. Thanks I really appreciate your input! :)

[eggynack]

Power attack would be worthless at lvl 1, with 0 BAB and I'm sorry I didn't clarify, but while I have taken VoP I do plan to turn sour relatively soon. It's more a mind over matter philosophy as we're playing it than it is a morality as it was intended.
The fact that power attack isn't that great at level one isn't that important. getting natural spell in a timely manner is a more important thing.



I'd be interested to know more summoning feats besides the double duration and aug summ.
The big two are rashemi elemental summoning (UE, 45) and greenbound summoning (LEoF, 8)


The only reasons I want monk for 6 lvls are the unarmed progression, ac, and feat. Emphasis on unarmed damage in wild shape.
It kinda seems like you're spending four levels of monk to add one point of damage and +1 to hit to each of your attacks on average. That's not really a worthwhile expenditure of resources.



While my original concept was a dire ape with a quarterstaff, I quickly realized I can still perform unarmed strikes in wild shape (elbows, knees, hipcheck, etc). And monk with a quarterstaff doesn't seem out of character at all to me, and while opinions may vary, I'd say flurry of blows with a quarterstaff seems a piece of lore that would argue my case.
You can certainly do one, and you can certainly do the other, and you can absolutely do the third, I don't really think that you can do all three at once.


Hope this response doesn't look crazy jumbled. And we're doing gestalt to make the most preposterous characters we can while not entirely breaking the game. Part of my character is RPing a Hulkedque individual. I see beauty in nature and brutality appeals greatly when wondering what to do with humans and their civilizations. I've never played druid before and animal companion looked interesting, then VoP monk seemed to compliment wild shape well. Let me know if something doesn't work RAW unless I've mentioned we modified it. Thanks I really appreciate your input! :)
It's a reasonable build in general, though I tend to prefer druids that hang back more often than not. I'd advise either bolding responses or responding to segments separately, by the way, in terms of anti-jumbling technique.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Thanks eggynack! For the quarterstaff, it's a temporary damage fix. I'm currently attacking for 3d6 twice when I flurry. Soon my unarmed damage will outweigh the Qstaff and it will be le chew toy. I guess I'm only going up one more rank in damage with those levels, but I'm trying to hit that collossal damage. I'd love full BAB but I really want to stick to unarmed strikes exclusively beyond a point. I guess fighter could provide a few more combat feats... But I'd like to go for flavor if possible.

I'm excited to have evasion and gain uncanny from FotF. I guess I was looking at 4d6 unarmed damage per strike at lvl 9 while wild shaped.

And I have no intention of mixing qstaff with unarmed strikes, though I'm pretty confident you can by RAW. Sorry I wasn't more clear. Thank for the feedback! I really do appreciate it.

Also, I had moved the wild spell farther down to qualify for my PrC.

[eggynack]

And I have no intention of mixing qstaff with unarmed strikes, though I'm pretty confident you can by RAW. Sorry I wasn't more clear. Thank for the feedback! I really do appreciate it.
You technically can. I'm just not sure I see the point in doing so. The main issue is with how this stuff combines with natural weapons, because you're going to be getting a pretty good number of those. That part might not be the most problematic thing though.

Also, I had moved the wild spell farther down to qualify for my PrC.
I'm aware. That's why I suggested pushing power attack. Natural spell is strong enough to justify taking slightly suboptimal feat arrangements in other parts of your build to get it on time.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I'll do my best to conform to your advice about the feats, but since we've already played one session, I don't know if they'd let me swap it out. I guess my only benefit so far has been the 1 hp lol. I'll argue my case. The three of us are really good friends and tend to allow a lot of ridiculous, then just make encounters really hard when needed.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Also, for flurry of blows, I probably won't allow myself 2 claw attacks or whatever my first two strikes would be, seeing as that could be quite silly.

[Zetapup]

Doesn't deep warden require dwarf? Assuming the previously mentioned item circumvents that.

Yes, but stoneblessed (a prestige class from races of stone) treats you as a dwarf, so you qualify for deepwarden. It's 3 levels which you can qualify for pretty easily, so not too big an investment.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Stoneblessed could be interesting. My most recent assessment was 30 ac as a fleshraker. But there's no reason not to raise that

At lvl 5. Sorry. Keep forgetting to mention details. :/

[SliceandDiceKid]

Ok so looking at it, I think I can get stone working and appraise figured out in the next few levels. Craft is the easy fix. Any RP fixes for the appraise skill or a clever homebrew replacement for that prerequisite? Doesn't make much sense as someone who abhors material goods.

[Vhaidara]

Fluff it as part of your past. 2 ranks can be done at level 1, even when cross-classed.

Also, how are you maintaining exalted with "kills humans on sight"?

[bekeleven]

Hm. Monk / Druid seems like it should be really fun, but there's a lot of fiddly mechanical bits that don't line up. The largest issue is that natural attacks are not enhanced by monk unarmed strike progression, as unarmed strikes are half-natural-attacks-half-not, but natural attacks (like claw, bite, etc) are in no way considered unarmed strikes.

Mind, if your group wishes to handwave these issues, more power to you! I'm getting the slight impression that your build is out-powering theirs, mostly just due to the fact that you're a) playing druid and b) in a thread with eggynack. If you're balanced or underpowered compared to them, rules tend to get more liberal, or at least that's how it's been at my tables.

The other major rules issue is that natural attacks are not legal flurry weapons, and can't be used during a flurry attack. Therefore, you can either hit with unarmed strike with your main (iterative) attack and use natural secondary weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons) or you may make a flurry attack, forgoing all natural weapons. Basically, wild shape is giving you powers equivalent to, or better than, the monk's powers for free and you can't use both. At some point you may decide you're better off with just a monk's belt and a wilding clasp from MIC.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Hey kel! Glad you found this thread! We're treating it as mind over matter benefits. It's not being used as RAW, we have modified it. Since its actually a hindrance, we've made our own tweaks.

Bek! Thanks for the feedback! I'm not planning to use claws as unarmed strikes. Srd for monk

"At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes."

Definitely applies to using whole body, even if I'm wild shaped.

I agree with the final paragraph. I'm using the main two "iterative attacks" swapping them out for my unarmed attacks. And I'm aware of the items, but I'm utilizing VoP.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Yes, but stoneblessed (a prestige class from races of stone) treats you as a dwarf, so you qualify for deepwarden. It's 3 levels which you can qualify for pretty easily, so not too big an investment.

To get the levels in stoneblessed, I'd have to be able to speak tarran and one other language I don't have access to... Any suggestions or obvious fixes I'm overlooking?

[eggynack]

To get the levels in stoneblessed, I'd have to be able to speak tarran and one other language I don't have access to... Any suggestions or obvious fixes I'm overlooking?
Take some ranks in speak language. The limitation on language from race only applies to starting languages, if I'm not mistaken. You can even get speak language as a class skill by losing wild empathy for voice of the city (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

[SliceandDiceKid]

Take some ranks in speak language. The limitation on language from race only applies to starting languages, if I'm not mistaken. You can even get speak language as a class skill by losing wild empathy for voice of the city (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

Bahahaha that's AWESOME!
Can you cite the sourcebook? Page would be awesome!

Eggynack, you are my hero.
I forgot all about the language skill.

[Vhaidara]

It's a web enhancement, 100% official ruling released online. Just follow the link he posted.

Also, eggy is god of druids give praise that he has not earthquaked your town.

[eggynack]

Bahahaha that's AWESOME!
Can you cite the sourcebook? Page would be awesome!
Sourcebook for what? Voice of the city is from that page I linked. Cityscape web enhancement druid ACF's are sweet business.

Eggynack, you are my hero.
Thanks. Druids do be my specialty.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Got it! Perfect. Trying to map the skills in my head. 2 levels of monk, maybe dip rogue 1 for the skills to go stoneblessed from ecl 4-6???

[SliceandDiceKid]

Is there another base class with crazy high skill points?

[bekeleven]

Is there another base class with crazy high skill points?

Rogue (PHB), Factotum (Dungeonscape), Beguiler (PHB2), Scout (CAdv) and Bard are probably the best skill monkeys. Rogue or beguiler would probably be better for dips. Scouts need a whole build, and most people that use factotum stay in it for 3, 8, or 11 levels at least.

Edit: If you're not taking this too early, swordsage 1 is a good dip as well.

[eggynack]

Rogue (PHB), Factotum (Dungeonscape), Beguiler (PHB2), Scout (CAdv) and Bard are probably the best skill monkeys. Rogue or beguiler would probably be better for dips. Scouts need a whole build, and most people that use factotum stay in it for 3, 8, or 11 levels at least.

Don't forget cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). It doesn't get the best skill list, but it gets enough points to work with, and everyone knows how good dipping cleric (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0) can be.

[bekeleven]

Don't forget cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). It doesn't get the best skill list, but it gets enough points to work with, and everyone knows how good dipping cleric (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0) can be.

I foolishly looked into my brain files under "Skill Monkey", not under "Everything ever." Evidently I need a better indexing system.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Rogue (PHB), Factotum (Dungeonscape), Beguiler (PHB2), Scout (CAdv) and Bard are probably the best skill monkeys. Rogue or beguiler would probably be better for dips. Scouts need a whole build, and most people that use factotum stay in it for 3, 8, or 11 levels at least.

Edit: If you're not taking this too early, swordsage 1 is a good dip as well.

I'm finding myself greatly discouraged. I could try to qualify for stoneblessed, but it would REQUIRE rogue, and I can't see making it to deepwarden without two levels of rogue. Even taking deepwarden after lvl 10, it's gonna be a tight squeeze...

My stats are not negotiable. We rolled them. Darn that low int. so fun to RP, but not fun to build around. Also, is all the effort worth it for another con to AC?

If I pick con as my VoP main stat, it'll be nice...

Also I forgot WILDSHAPE FOR MOAR AC!

[SliceandDiceKid]

Eggynack, that might just be perfect!

[eggynack]

Also I forgot WILDSHAPE FOR MOAR AC!
True enough. You can get some pretty high AC on a druid if you know what you're doing. My usual build for that is just desmodu hunting bat (MM II, 65)+luminous armor (BoED, 102)+ a monk's belt. Of course, actual monk levels obviate the need for the belt, and VoP turns off the AC bonus on luminous armor, but bats are still packing 20 AC. Fleshraker (MM III, 40) is also always amazing, if you need some face hitting to go with the AC. Also, I've apparently done the citation for desmodu hunting bats so many times that I've memorized it. I dunno how to feel about that.

Eggynack, that might just be perfect!
Yeah, cloistered cleric so often is.

[Rebel7284]

Cleric also enables Divine Metamagic at later levels if you want it. You may need to take extra turning/Undeath Domain later to get enough turn attempts with that charisma, but even one buff lasting all day is good. For example, a Dire Bear with all day Bite of the Werebear. =)

[eggynack]

Cleric also enables Divine Metamagic at later levels if you want it. You may need to take extra turning/Undeath Domain later to get enough turn attempts with that charisma, but even one buff lasting all day is good. For example, a Dire Bear with all day Bite of the Werebear. =)
Ooh, forgot DMM for some reason. Druid spells don't work as well with persist as cleric and wizard spells do, cause their best buffs run for long durations already, but persisting friendly fire (EoE, 27) sounds pretty amazing. It's a great effect, obviously. Just maybe less borked than it sounds.

Edit: Actually, come to think of it, why not run DMM: quicken or something instead? That might work better with a druid's style. I tend to just dismiss DMM: not-persist options as less good, because persist is so strong, but this might be worth some thought.

[bekeleven]

He's building a bruiser. He should just take travel domain, exchange the domain ability for travel devotion, and grab more full attacks. Doesn't require any feat slots or anything.

It doesn't look like the current build has Quicken in it already, so it would require 2 feats. Also, without extra turning or nightstick abuse, a non-cha-focus build could only quicken once (maybe twice) a day.

[Rebel7284]

Ooh, forgot DMM for some reason. Druid spells don't work as well with persist as cleric and wizard spells do, cause their best buffs run for long durations already, but persisting friendly fire (EoE, 27) sounds pretty amazing. It's a great effect, obviously. Just maybe less borked than it sounds.

Edit: Actually, come to think of it, why not run DMM: quicken or something instead? That might work better with a druid's style. I tend to just dismiss DMM: not-persist options as less good, because persist is so strong, but this might be worth some thought.

With that few turn attempts and no access to items, DMM quicken seems like it's weaker than persist.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Quick response, not wanting to sink a ton of effort into meta magic feats.

Think I have the skills figured out. Assuming I can respec them, here they are:
1-d/m 12 pts: 4 craft(stone), 4Handle Animal, 4Survival
2-d/m 3 pts: 1 craft(stone), 1 language
3-d/CC 5 pts: 5 know dungeoneering
4-d/rogue 7 pts: 1 language, 2 appraise, 3 heal
5-d/stoneblessed 2heal 1survival
6-d/stoneblessed 3 jump
7-d/FotF 2 jump 1 climb
8-d/FotF 3 climb
9-d/FotF 1 climb 2FREE
10-d/stoneblessed 3 whatever
11-d/deepwarden

Is there an obvious flaw here and does anyone see a way to get FotF AND deepwarden any faster?

Follow up: should I stick with deep warden several levels? Or build into something else? Definitely want to keep druid side pure.

[eggynack]

With that few turn attempts and no access to items, DMM quicken seems like it's weaker than persist.
Seems plausible, I guess. I'm just not sure that persist is worth it. The best druid buff spells are things like heart of water, or primal instinct, or venomfire, and while the duration of those spells is a big part of their power, I suspect that they would still be some of the best options when mitigated persist comes into play. Sure, you can get bite of the were X, and that friendly fire thing I mentioned sounds awesome, but it's not the game changing thing it is on clerics or wizards.

Quicken will probably run out after one or two uses, and that might make it not worth it, but it's potentially doing bigger things. Also a decent chunk of my thinking on the matter will likely be separate from this thread, mostly for handbook purposes, so the money lacking thing can be solved by my brain containing a non-VoP druid. I've been kinda wary of using a sacred exorcist dip for persist, but there's a decent chance that it could be worth it for quicken, or even a different metamagic feat. It's definitely a thing worth thinking about.

Edit: Woah, that skill designation is harsh. Is all of that necessary for PrC's, or do you have room for concentration/knowledge (nature)? They're pretty important, concentration because you're presumably going to be standing right next to your opponents and casting spells, and knowledge (nature) because that's how becoming familiar with wild shape forms is generally done.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Yes. Languages, appraise, and craft for stoneblessed,
Jump, climb, survival, heal, dungeoneering for deepwarden
Then survival and handle animal for FotF

My original build was concentration, survival, HA, know nature...

Deepwarden is exhaustingly demanding and stone warden is pointless if I'm not going for deepwarden... Lol

This is why I wasn't sure it was worth it. But I'll have some con to spare, and I can add in a bit of knowledge nature in the cracks? Hahaha

[SliceandDiceKid]

He's building a bruiser. He should just take travel domain, exchange the domain ability for travel devotion, and grab more full attacks. Doesn't require any feat slots or anything.

It doesn't look like the current build has Quicken in it already, so it would require 2 feats. Also, without extra turning or nightstick abuse, a non-cha-focus build could only quicken once (maybe twice) a day.

Where is the option to swap domain for devotion? I've never rolled a tabletop cleric before and am painfully ignorant on their ACFs.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Will this be worth all the effort? I could put more knowledge nature in the start of the build and stagger the other pieces down toward the end. Concentration will probably end up neglected in this build. I know it's pretty crucial, but I plan to whack things more than cast in people's faces. I guess I just don't plan to use spells at point blank. Or just have to work around it. At least my wild shapes will aid constitution. And I think I'll make it my exalted ability focus, especially for double AC boost.

[bekeleven]

Where is the option to swap domain for devotion? I've never rolled a tabletop cleric before and am painfully ignorant on their ACFs.

Complete Champion, Page 53. Most cloistered clerics exchange knowledge domain's ability (all knowledge skills are class skills) for knowledge devotion (If you can make trained checks in each creature-identifying knowledge, the feat gives at least +1 to attack and damage on all rolls). They're generally regarded as the two best devotion feats.

[Metahuman1]

Regarding your Monk Side: I'd suggest two things. One, After Monk 2, take the feats Monistic Training and Tashlorana (I probably spelled that wrong, Eberron Campaign Setting.) and then any levels that aren't Fist of the Forest or the next suggestion, make levels in Psykick Warrior. This will advance your unarmed strikes while giving you even more bonus feats (And for the cost of a Psionic Feat when you get access to 5th level powers, the ability to change all your feats at will via the power Psionic Reformation.), advances flurry of blows and a progression of Psionic Powers and Power Points that runs off Wis and thus gives you even more tricks you can pull out of your hat, some of which can't be garnered by casting spells, or at least, not off the straight druid list with our tweaks/add ons.

Also, look up Recharge Tricks, there's a few Playgrounders who I'm sure can talk you through one that you can put in the build that run with out items. That way your powers become a per encounter resource, rather then a daily one.

For a slightly Larger investment of feats/powers, you can also set yourself up to always be able to manifest your buff powers/cast important spells on your first round with out loosing actions you'd need to use to close distance/attack people. Psionics is great for breaking action Economy like that if that's your thing.

I'd also suggest dipping Two Levels of Unarmed Swordsage. RAW, it doesn't advance your Unarmed Strike, but that should be an easy and logical ruling to get form a DM that it does. It also get's you a freebee weapons focus, Wis in Light Armor, some skill points, a +1 to Initiative that will stack with other sources, and most importantly, access to Tome of Battle Maneuvers, which can give you a number of unique, powerful and cool/flavorful tricks and options for combat that also run as a per encounter resource's, and heck, if you can hide behind summons/battle field control spells/Animal Companion for a round here and there, you can even take time in combat to recover those maneuvers and use them again.


On the Druid Side: Don't forget natural spell. Any form you Wild Shape into maintains your powerful build, which is really great for tripping/bullsrushing/grappling or defending from such. Apes are great to wild shape into if you want a form that can wield weapons and gives you a much higher strength score for a base line. Ask if your Vow of poverty bonuses stack with your wild shape form.

Also, look into using spell craft to research useful spells/druid versions of useful spells/tweaked versions of spells to be more useful. Scintillating Scales, Greater Mighty Wallop, Divine Power and Righteous Might are all examples of spells you want to know, particularly if you can extend spells. Heroics and Psionic Reformation would be horribly broken for doing thinks like unlimited Turn Undead via improved Turning if you take that cleric dip you were talking about earlier in the thread along with my Psi-warrior suggestion. And a costume version of haste that works the same as normal except it boosts EVERY weapon, natural or otherwise, you have with an extra attack at highest bonus.


General points/thoughts.

Using a quarter staff will benefit from spikes/brambles spells, but Shelaily will become out-dated when your unarmed strike hit's the D10 damage die since it's a monk weapon and uses monk preferred damage.

Don't forget to look at both the TWF line and the Multy Weapon Fighting line since at minimum your gonna have an unarmed strike, two ends of a quarter staff to make attacks with and a slam attack from Fist of the Forest assuming you don't use spells/powers/wildshaping to get additional slam attacks or claw/rake attacks or bite attacks or such. (I recommend bite of the Werebear for a bit attack, DR and a significant Con and Str boost. ) In fact the only real advantage TWF has is that it works with Tiger Claw School Tome of Battle Maneuvers better then Multy Weapon Fighting/Multy Attack (Depending on which one your DM rules you need.)

DMM Chain Spell and DMM Extend Spell will be Useful for making sure important Buffs like Custom Version of Greater Mighty Wallop and Greater Magic Weapon get all the targets.

The Soulbound weapon AFC, particularly coupled with an action economy breaker combo and a Recharge Trick, assuming you take the Psi-warrior levels I suggested, get's you access to a quarter staff with special properties. With out breaking your Vow.
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

[SliceandDiceKid]

As previously mentioned, I have no intention of hiding behind any of my druid related features. Role playing a big idiot who loves nature and just kind of storms in without thinking. It isn't the most sound tactic, but it's how I've introduced the character.

Greater mighty wallop will be moot before too long. And while psychic warrior was a strong consideration while conceptualizing the gestalt character, I'm not sure I want to drag psionics into it. We've never used them in a campaign. We have read up on them, but have no experience.

I have natural spell listed in my feats. Also it was my understanding that two weapon fighting did NOT affect unarmed strikes. Obviously the Qstaff becomes obsolete, which is why I'm progressing my unarmed damage. As it is at lvl 1 I'm dealing 3d6 each side of my quarterstaff, so the d10 won't be the turning point.

VoP bonuses stack in wild shape by RAW, which is the reason I'm doing VoP druid.

Thanks for the input meta human. I'll go check out ToB maneuvers.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Complete Champion, Page 53. Most cloistered clerics exchange knowledge domain's ability (all knowledge skills are class skills) for knowledge devotion (If you can make trained checks in each creature-identifying knowledge, the feat gives at least +1 to attack and damage on all rolls). They're generally regarded as the two best devotion feats.

To verify, I give up my domain and gain 3 feats??? And since I can take the travel devotion feat multiple times I could use it all three times. 3 separate minutes of movement as swift! (I doubt I would make the knowledge rolls?)

[mangosta71]

Have you considered unarmed swordsage instead of monk? You get the same unarmed progression on a chassis that's superior in every way except the saves (and you can get maneuvers that make the monk's save bonuses curl up in a corner and cry). If your DM allows it, you can take 2 levels in monk and then go into unarmed swordsage to get WIS to AC twice.

Swordsage also gets 6 skill points per level. Not quite as good as rogue or scout, but still very nice.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Have you considered unarmed swordsage instead of monk? You get the same unarmed progression on a chassis that's superior in every way except the saves (and you can get maneuvers that make the monk's save bonuses curl up in a corner and cry). If your DM allows it, you can take 2 levels in monk and then go into unarmed swordsage to get WIS to AC twice.

Swordsage also gets 6 skill points per level. Not quite as good as rogue or scout, but still very nice.

Hey mango! Does the AC bonus REQUIRE me to wear light armor?

[eggynack]

To verify, I give up my domain and gain 3 feats??? And since I can take the travel devotion feat multiple times I could use it all three times. 3 separate minutes of movement as swift! (I doubt I would make the knowledge rolls?)
No, you give up a domain and get a single feat. It's just that you can do that up to three times, because cloistered clerics get that many domains.

[SliceandDiceKid]

No, you give up a domain and get a single feat. It's just that you can do that up to three times, because cloistered clerics get that many domains.

Awesome. Went back and read it. 2 for deity, then knowledge. Cool.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Oh sweet! So I can swap for knowledge devotion to add dungeoneering forever, then boost it with other lvls skill points to buy the languages with CC! Amazing. Thanks eggy.

[mangosta71]

Hey mango! Does the AC bonus REQUIRE me to wear light armor?
By RAW, yes. But most DMs are reasonable enough to allow it while wearing no armor, too. (I actually consider that far more reasonable than allowing the bonuses to stack in the first place.)

[SliceandDiceKid]

I've reassessed the build. I've got it planned as follows:

Druid 1-20 on one side

Other side-
1 monk
2 Cloistered Cleric
3 monk
4 Rogue
5-6 Stoneblessed
7-9 Fist of the Forest
10 Stoneblessed
11-12 Deepwarden
13-14 Fighter
15-19 Shou Disciple
20 RANDOM WHIMSICAL DIP! (Barb?)

This should yield outrageous unarmed damage, preposterous AC, and just silly speed boosts.

[eggynack]

This should yield outrageous unarmed damage, preposterous AC, and just silly speed boosts.
Seems plausible. Still, it's worthy of note that you could potentially get all of those things with naught but druid levels. It's a thing worth thinking about, though I'm not sure about the end state of that thought process.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Seems plausible. Still, it's worthy of note that you could potentially get all of those things with naught but druid levels. It's a thing worth thinking about, though I'm not sure about the end state of that thought process.

True. We were just really excited about stumbling upon the gestalt game variant, since we can't seem to find more players... And I'm really fixated on the idea of a wild shaping monk. I am looking at switching the second monk level for rogue. More skills to help with con and know nat.

Keep an eye out for a pure druid build in the future! I greatly value your input. Thanks for all the advice. I look forward to rolling a non VoP druid who ISN'T waging war on humanity. Until then, try to stay indoors after dark. ;)

Also I started a thread regarding my druid's material components issue. I'd love an alternative or just basic advice on what might be worth my XP.

[eggynack]

Keep an eye out for a pure druid build in the future! I greatly value your input. Thanks for all the advice. I look forward to rolling a non VoP druid who ISN'T waging war on humanity. Until then, try to stay indoors after dark. ;)
Quite. In any case, if you're interested in massive quantities of druid information, I could always PM over my currently unfinished druid handbook. Right now it's clocking in at 70,810 words.


Also I started a thread regarding my druid's material components issue. I'd love an alternative or just basic advice on what might be worth my XP.
I'll look into it, though I've yet to do extensive research into spells by price. Overall, you could probably get by to some extent with componentless spells, especially earlier on.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Seems plausible. Still, it's worthy of note that you could potentially get all of those things with naught but druid levels. It's a thing worth thinking about, though I'm not sure about the end state of that thought process.

Cool! Sounds good. And I'd love to have a read through. I'd even point out spelling errors etc if you want. Feel free to send it. I hope there are some advised wild shapes. :P

[eggynack]

Cool! Sounds good. And I'd love to have a read through. I'd even point out spelling errors etc if you want.
You may if you wish, though there is no onus to. There's broad permission to use commenting if you seek a method to do so.


Feel free to send it. I hope there are some advised wild shapes. :P
There are a few, though not as many as I'd like. The majority of the content is spell-stuff. I should probably do more of the animal statistical analysis necessary for various things at some point, though it's a rather daunting thing.

[mangosta71]

Is cloistered cleric one of the few classes that doesn't prevent you from taking more monk levels? I don't think it is, but I can't swear to that.

Also, given that monk (unless you're playing a variant) requires lawful, and barbarian requires nonlawful, you're gonna need to either find something else for that whimsical splash or change your alignment at some point.

[Rebel7284]

You lose nothing if you stop being lawful. This is explicitly stated in the monk entry. Don't recall off the bat the details of the monk multiclassing rules, but pretty sure the build works just as well even if the order of that cleric level and the second monk level is switched. =)

[SliceandDiceKid]

I'm probably bailing on monk class after level 1 anyway. Going with 2 rogue anyway.