Words of Radiance [SPOILERS]

[IthilanorStPete]

Let's use this thread for discussing Brandon Sanderson's new book, Words of Radiance. Who else has read it, or is going to?

I bought it today; currently reading it. I'll post my reactions as I read, but I won't join in the discussion until I'm done.

[IthilanorStPete]

Ithilanor's liveblog of Words of Radiance:

Parts 1 and 2:

-YOU DID NOT JUST KILL JASNAH. :smallfurious: I am not happy about one of the best characters being killed off.
-Parshendi viewpoint! Wild. The worldbuilding in general is fantastic; so many interesting different cultures.
-Speaking of that, spren have cultures! And cities! Didn't see that happening.
-Shallan had a rough childhood, and I can't imagine it's going to get better. Poor girl.
-Kaladin, stop being so paranoid. It's understandable, but a little frustrating.
-Windrunner fight! Windrunner fight! Windrunner fight! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html) Go Kaladin! Looking forward to seeing what Szeth thinks of all this.


Part 3:

-Stormform, eh? This does not bode well. I'm curious who exactly the Stormfather is and how he's connected to the Heralds, Honor, and/or Odium.
-I feel like I should recognize Zahel from somewhere.
-Taln interlude...dang. Poor guy. :smalleek: Roshar needs a therapist.
-The Soulcaster ardents are....interesting.
-Oh hey, Navani's made a flying platform! That's pretty cool! Always good to see characters working out the implications of existing magic; it's something Sanderson's really good at.
-Pattern is quite an interesting contrast to Syl...and also hilarious.
-Not quite sure how I feel about this Adolin/Shallan romance that's being set up. They're pretty funny, but I wish we could have that without needing to hook the female characters up. I like Sanderson a lot, but he doesn't seem to write terribly convincing romance. Also, the whole trope of having a pre-arranged marriage that both people grow to enjoy is kinda problematic.
-So that's what happened to Gaz. Good to see that get wrapped up.
-I feel sorry for Renarin, but serving under Kaladin seems to be working out well for him. Roshar still needs therapists.
-A while ago (well before this book came out), I remember reading a crazy theory that Danlan was up to something. I thought the person was reading too much into a comparatively tiny amount of text; turns out she actually is! :smallbiggrin:
-Love the sketches of Shardblades and Plate. The artwork has been generally amazing.
-At the Middlefest fair: was that a Hoid sighting? I think that's a Hoid sighting.
-So some white-haired dude grants the Horneaters powers, and Sizgil's freaking out about it. As if there wasn't enough ominous foreshadowing already.
-Wikim: "Thanks so much for helping us all out, Shallan! Here's some deadly poison!" Roshar needs an army of therapists.
-Adolin is opening up to Shallan! People are talking to each other about their problems! Are you listening, Kaladin?
-Amaram's Blade belonged to Shallan's brother. Another (slightly less crazy) theory confirmed!
-So...Kaladin's basically Superman now.
-Hoid's back, as the King's Wit! And he's annoyed that Kaladin lost his flute.:smallbiggrin:
-Kaladin definitely has seasonal affective disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder). See previous comments re: Roshar, therapists.
-Amaram is heading up Dalinar's new Knights Radiant. That honorless scum... :smallfurious:
-Four against one. Saw that one coming.
-Yes! Go Kaladin!
-YES! GO KALADIN!
-Oh crap.


Part 4:

-The Interlude with Lift was interesting, and she's got some very interesting powers, but it really felt like it was taken from a different novel - a much more comedic one.
-Szeth's finally getting around to some introspection and questioning...about time.
-Stormform's even worse than I thought. Odium comes.
-"Perfect pitch makes this all so much easier than it once was..." So Hoid's got some Breath, huh? Very interesting.
-Looks like these epigrams are a reply to Hoid's letter in Way of Kings! I'm having to resist the urge to flip through and read them all.
-So what's Amaram's faction - "Restares and his lackeys" - up to? Is he connected to Taravangian?
-Oh, Shallan. :smalleek:
-Elhokar sent Roshone to Kaladin's town. Oh, Kaladin. :smalleek:
-Adolin had himself locked in with Kaladin! Brilliant! I'm liking him more and more.
-"It is an era for tyrants. I doubt this place is ready for anything more, and a benevolent tyrant is preferable to the disaster of weak rule." That is extremely uncomfortable to read. Thankfully, Dalinar seems to be rejecting that path.
-Bridge collapse...ack. I'm highly amused that both Kaladin and Shallan each think they saved the other, though.
-Not terribly impressed by the conversation between Kaladin and Shallan about class stratification and oppression; feels like apologism for those with privilege.
-These epigrams are saying some very interesting things about Odium.
-So tht's what the Envisagers did. Oh, Teft. :smalleek: And now I think I know what Amaram's up to...
-And now we're hinting at Kaladin/Shallan? Really?
-"At least take this." I don't know if that's a very awesome thing or a very bad thing.
-Holy crap the Shardblade can change size/form!
-Shallan's father is dead...and not by the Shardblade. Good riddance.
-No...Syl better not be dead!
-And off to the center of the Plains we go!
-*turns the page, sees Interludes: Lhan, Eshonai...Taravangian?! TARAVANGIAN!!!
-Looks like the French Alethi Revolution has started. Haul out the guillotine!
-So the Thrill and the Death Rattles are each caused by some sort of evil spren...not too surprising, but curious.
-That was an extremely interesting interlude.


Part 5

-Time to brace for the Sanderson Avalanche!
-Hah! Dalinar can be a little tricky when needed. Stuff it, Amaram!
-from the epigram: So the Shin do have all the missing Shardblades! Another theory confirmed!
-Wait, when did Shallan show Dalinar her Shardblade? I'm losing track of exactly who knows what.
-"From the Diagram, Catechism of the Back of the Flowered Painting..." That's pretty hilarious.
-Now I'm feeling sorry for Elhokar of all people. Not that much, admittedly.
-Here comes the storm. The Everstorm comes...
-"I am sorry that you have to die this way." The Everstorm comes...
-Ah...looks like the Stormfather's a Sliver of Honor.
-"A daughter disobeys." Please let Syl be alive, please please please :smalleek:
-Something's up with Renarin...by his reaction to his Blade, I'm guessing we can add him to the roster of Knights Radiant-to-be
-And there goes Eshonai...
-And here comes Szeth.
-Kaladin just will not stop, will he?
-SYL!
-"The Knights Radiant have returned." YES!
-Oh my gosh Kaladin keeps getting more and more awesome!
-Windrunner fight, round 2!
-Shardblades are dead spren, apparently...no wonder Syl didn't like them.
-Shardspear!
-Wow, the Oathgate is big!
-Goodbye, Szeth. At least you went out with a fight.
-So that's what an Honorblade is.
-He hid Elhokar with Lopen! Excellent!
-She killed her mother. Oh, Shallan.
-The Herald of Justice!
-...
-...
-NIGHTBLOOD!
-CRISIS CROSSOVER COMMENCE!

-Oh, and Adolin killed Sadeas. Good riddance.

-Dalinar just bonded the Stormfather. Nice. And he's the Bondsmith.
-Yup, Renarin's a Radiant. Truthwatcher.

...NIGHTBLOOD!

And Jasnah's alive! :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

Responses to Ithilanor (avoiding giving spoilers beyond the point where he's at)



-Shallan had a rough childhood, and I can't imagine it's going to get better. Poor girl.


Wasn't this something we already knew pretty clearly last book? I mean, it's sad to see it up closer, but I felt the Shallan Flashbacks were some of the weakest parts of the book. It was a fair bit of extra page space and not a whole lot of new information.


-Windrunner fight! Windrunner fight! Windrunner fight! Go Kaladin! Looking forward to seeing what Szeth thinks of all this.


Oh man. That fight was fun. But like Kaladin said, Szeth is no wind runner. He has no spren to guide him. Unfortunately he is much more practiced than Kaladin.


-Stormform, eh? This does not bode well. I'm curious who exactly the Stormfather is and how he's connected to the Heralds, Honor, and/or Odium.


The everstorm comes.


-I feel like I should recognize Zahel from somewhere.


He's actually a Cameo from one of Brandon's other works. If you haven't caught it by the time you read the Epilogue, I'll tell you.


-The Soulcaster ardents are....interesting.


Oh **** I had actually completely forgotten about that segment. Yeah that was downright scary. I hope our Soulcasting radiants don't end up that way.


-Pattern is quite an interesting contrast to Syl...and also hilarious.


As in they're polar opposites? Yeah, I'm not sure I understand the Lightweavers/Cryptics. All of the orders are formed from spren that are shards of Honor AFAIK, but where is the honor in what the Cryptics do? In what Pattern is pushing Shallan towards becoming? It's interesting, I want to learn more about it.


-So that's what happened to Gaz. Good to see that get wrapped up.


Yeah, I liked him a lot more this time around. Possibly because he's helping the good guys instead of trying to get Kaladin murdered. I was also surprised to see Tsvalkov show back up. (I'm pretty sure it was the same slaver that Kaladin was sold to Sadeas by).


-Love the sketches of Shardblades and Plate. The artwork has been generally amazing.


Definitely. The Artwork in this book was head and shoulders above WoK, and WoK was already fairly impressive. I loved it.


-At the Middlefest fair: was that a Hoid sighting? I think that's a Hoid sighting.

In Shallan's flashback? Yeah, pretty sure that was a Hoid sighting.


-So some white-haired dude grants the Horneaters powers, and Sizgil's freaking out about it. As if there wasn't enough ominous foreshadowing already.


Um... I must have missed this. Is this referring to Rock giving the Horneater origin story? I don't remember that being about the Horneaters getting powers. Care to refresh my memory/elaborrate on this?


-Wikim: "Thanks so much for helping us all out, Shallan! Here's some dealy poison!" Roshar needs an army of therapists.


This was really the point where I was wondering if Roshar has more than a half dozen different plants. I mean first Shallan was milking knobweed for medicine, then we get the flashback with her getting the same poisonous leaf that Kaladin was carrying around when he was at his worst? I know law of conservation of detail, but jeeze. Just make up a different name for the poison.


-Amaram's Blade belonged to Shallan's brother. Another (slightly less crazy) theory confirmed!


And remember, this means Kaladin was the one who murdered the one person Shallan looked to for stability and support in her crazy family. That's a mess waiting to happen.


-Hoid's back, as the King's Wit! And he's annoyed that Kaladin lost his flute.


"You!" "Me!"

And remember a few lines up you were asking if that was a Hoid sighting? Notice Shallan's friendly reaction to seeing him. This pretty much confirms that.


-Four against one. Saw that one coming.
-Yes! Go Kaladin!
-YES! GO KALADIN!
-Oh crap.

Definitely one of the best sequences in the book. That whole thing. It was like a repeat of the Sidecarry again. Kaladin does everything right, and still manages to screw up the big picture. Still, nobody can fault the man's guts.

[Dragonus45]

So having finished the book all i want to do is talk about the book, but the moment i try there is so much pure awesome that i have no idea where to begin. For starters, am I the only one who thinks that the reveal about Shallan having killed her mother because her mother wanted to kill her for being a KR to add so much damn depth to her whole family. I went from despising her father with an unholy passion to having just the deepest pity for him, yea he turned out to be a monster but in the end he was one I could feel sorry for. As for Sezths new sword, BA has mentioned before, when asked about Allomatically pushing Invested objects, that Nightblood was orders of magnitude more powerful than a shard blade. That plus all the other hints about the Ghostbloods being tied to Nalthis along with Adolin's sword master, who's name I just forgot, also being from there and probably being Vasher. That said Szeth didn't feel sickened in it's presence which could mean all kinds of out and out bad are about to happen.
:EDIT: Spoilers are for the completed book for anyone who hasn't finished it. read it.

[Seerow]

So having finished the book all i want to do is talk about the book, but the moment i try there is so much pure awesome that i have no idea where to begin. For starters, am I the only one who thinks that the reveal about Shallan having killed her mother because her mother wanted to kill her for being a KR to add so much damn depth to her whole family. I went from despising her father with an unholy passion to having just the deepest pity for him, yea he turned out to be a monster but in the end he was one I could feel sorry for. As for Sezths new sword, BA has mentioned before, when asked about Allomatically pushing Invested objects, that Nightblood was orders of magnitude more powerful than a shard blade. That plus all the other hints about the Ghostbloods being tied to Nalthis along with Adolin's sword master, who's name I just forgot, also being from there. That said Szeth didn't feel sickened in it's presence which could mean all kinds of out and out bad are about to happen.
:EDIT: Spoilers are for the completed book for anyone who hasn't finished it. read it.


1) Yeah, Shallan's dad turned into a very pitiable character at the end. It was the one thing that made Shallan's flashbacks worth it. Unfortunately, that reveal didn't even come as a flashback. It came as a discussion between her and pattern. That frustrated me a lot.

2) Any source on Nightblood being orders of magnitude more powerful than the shardblade? (link to interview or whatever). Not that I don't trust you, I'd just like to see the context. Also what did we get tying the Ghostbloods to Nalthis other than the leader having a few seemingly off-world things at the meeting with Shallan?


But seriously you're missing the absolutely best thing about the book: Kaladin hides Elhokar with Lopen's mother. I sat and laughed far longer than I should have at that. And then Lopen starts regrowing his arm! Also most of Bridge 4 started glowing mid battle! They may not be radiants (none have seen any strange spren that have been mentioned), but the epigraphs mentioned Radiant Squires, and it seems we've got our first group of them.

[Dragonus45]

1) Yeah, Shallan's dad turned into a very pitiable character at the end. It was the one thing that made Shallan's flashbacks worth it. Unfortunately, that reveal didn't even come as a flashback. It came as a discussion between her and pattern. That frustrated me a lot.

2) Any source on Nightblood being orders of magnitude more powerful than the shardblade? (link to interview or whatever). Not that I don't trust you, I'd just like to see the context. Also what did we get tying the Ghostbloods to Nalthis other than the leader having a few seemingly off-world things at the meeting with Shallan?


But seriously you're missing the absolutely best thing about the book: Kaladin hides Elhokar with Lopen's mother. I sat and laughed far longer than I should have at that. And then Lopen starts regrowing his arm! Also most of Bridge 4 started glowing mid battle! They may not be radiants (none have seen any strange spren that have been mentioned), but the epigraphs mentioned Radiant Squires, and it seems we've got our first group of them.



1. Yea that was kind of off, but what I want to see most now is more details about that falling out with her mother, father and third man, and more about her older brother. Also I wonder what she will think when she Finds out Kaladin killed him.

2. I'll try and track it down again, it got mentioned as something he said when another question was getting answered, but Brandon said that theoretically you can push/pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could push/pull Shardblades/plate (http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27shardblade%27) and i found it mentioned several times that he mentioned the Nightblood was stronger part but I have been having trouble tracking down the exact quote, but the first time I saw it mentioned it was part of that same QA, also it was mentioned that Scadiral had very very low Investiture when compared to many of the other worlds. Roshar is aparently at the higher end of the scale, with Nalthis having a super super high peak with what they can pull off with breath.

And yea stashing the king in your buddies moms house, where he gets told off by his scary mother, was the best. As to his glowing arm, I hope this means that the one Bridgeman who lost his legs can regrow the soul. That scene had me so broken up I had to put the book down.

One last edit, so apparently Hoid has a ton of breath to have perfect pitch, plus that lerasium he took he is clearly turning into an absolute powerhouse of crossworld magic.

[Seerow]

1. Yea that was kind of off, but what I want to see most now is more details about that falling out with her mother, father and third man, and more about her older brother. Also I wonder what she will think when she Finds out Kaladin killed him.

2. I'll try and track it down again, it got mentioned as something he said when another question was getting answered, but Brandon said that theoretically you can push/pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could push/pull Shardblades/plate (http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27shardblade%27) and i found it mentioned several times that he mentioned the Nightblood was stronger part but I have been having trouble tracking down the exact quote, but the first time I saw it mentioned it was part of that same QA, also it was mentioned that Scadiral had very very low Investiture when compared to many of the other worlds. Roshar is aparently at the higher end of the scale, with Nalthis having a super super high peak with what they can pull off with breath.

And yea stashing the king in your buddies moms house, where he gets told off by his scary mother, was the best. As to his glowing arm, I hope this means that the one Bridgeman who lost his legs can regrow the soul. That scene had me so broken up I had to put the book down.

One last edit, so apparently Hoid has a ton of breath to have perfect pitch, plus that lerasium he took he is clearly turning into an absolute powerhouse of crossworld magic.


Re: Hoid-Not to mention the speculation that he's currently the one with the madman's (can't remember which herald he was. I'm awful with names that show up so rarely) Honorblade. I'm also pretty sure I saw someone claim that Hoid has access to Feruchemy, but I couldn't cite it. But yeah, that guy's got everything. I can't even comprehend what Brandon has in mind for his series. Right now the guy just seems like a Mary Sue.

[Dragonus45]

Re: Hoid-Not to mention the speculation that he's currently the one with the madman's (can't remember which herald he was. I'm awful with names that show up so rarely) Honorblade. I'm also pretty sure I saw someone claim that Hoid has access to Feruchemy, but I couldn't cite it. But yeah, that guy's got everything. I can't even comprehend what Brandon has in mind for his series. Right now the guy just seems like a Mary Sue.

I think he is too mysterious to be quite a mary sue yet, from my understanding he is the main character of the books that actually follow the big cosmic crossword story, so it makes a kind of sense that his powers are on a somewhat higher scale. Really the thing saving him for me is the fact that BA is the one writing him, and I have faith that man could write anyone as a compelling character.

On a side note, after seeing the kind of damage that Kaladin and Shalllan were taking over the course of the story, i feel stupid for thinking that a little blood loss would end you know who, that being such a big spoiler I'll avoid using the name, even is spoiler tags.. Found a source on that nightblood line, Here (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2398-nightblood-vs-shardblade/)

[IthilanorStPete]

Posted my reactions to Part 4.

[Dragonus45]

As much as that tyrant line bothered me, I find that I'm just as bothered by the fact that if things keep getting worse and worse it might just be true. So what did you think of the TARAVANGIAN parts, have you read when they say what his wish was yet? I have a theory on it I want to run by someone but I can't remember when in the book it was stated.

[Seerow]

Ilthanor you should just post the new reactions in a new post instead of editing the old post :x



I think he is too mysterious to be quite a mary sue yet, from my understanding he is the main character of the books that actually follow the big cosmic crossword story, so it makes a kind of sense that his powers are on a somewhat higher scale. Really the thing saving him for me is the fact that BA is the one writing him, and I have faith that man could write anyone as a compelling character.

Yeah, I trust Sanderson a lot, and am sure when we get to that point it will all work... but man. Higher scale of power is one thing (I would have no problem with Hoid being equivalent to or stronger than Sazed without the restrictions, but I don't think he's actually that powerful), it's the wide variety of things he's picking up. Can you imagine trying to keep track of what this character is capable of at any given time with all of the various different powers and abilities he's picking up? By the time we get to the Dragon Steel series (or whatever it was called), Hoid will be like a epic level D&D Wizard. Too many different abilities.

On the other hand, I'm guessing Brandon is doing this explicitly because he wants the various magic systems from his world to interact. We're sure to see crazy off the wall combinations of things we've never thought of before, because those systems aren't part of the same world.


On a side note, after seeing the kind of damage that Kaladin and Shalllan were taking over the course of the story, i feel stupid for thinking that a little blood loss would end you know who, that being such a big spoiler I'll avoid using the name, even is spoiler tags.. Found a source on that nightblood line, Here


Eh, I honestly still am not sure how Jasnah survived. I mean, Stormlight makes you durable, and will let you recover from nearly anything, but we're talking about a coup de grace. A knife straight to the heart. I'm guessing it'll be something like she had seconds left and transported herself to Shadesmar before her body could die, and in Shadesmar her body wasn't needed to survive. So she could stay there while recovering before coming back. Which is why she stayed away for 2-3 months at such a crucial time.


And thanks for the source on the quote. It seems that the quote was specifying Sazed's new sword has a lot more magic invested into it. So now I'm curious how that compares to say an Honor Blade, or the blade of a Radiant who hasn't fallen (if those even count as items, and not raw magic?). Also not entirely sure what that extra magic actually translates to in terms of combat potential. I really need to reread Warbreaker it seems.



-The Interlude with Lift was interesting, and she's got some very interesting powers, but it really felt like it was taken from a different novel - a much more comedic one.

I think this was originally written as a separate novelette. But yeah, the tone is definitely different. I love Lift all the more for it though. The whole concept is so awesomely ridiculous. "Yeah I'm an awesome thief, but who cares about money? Screw that. I want to get in and steal peoples' dinner". I really hope she finds her way to the main cast in the next book.


-Adolin had himself locked in with Kaladin! Brilliant! I'm liking him more and more.


This was in my top two Adolin moments from the book. You'll know the other when you see it.


-Not terribly impressed by the conversation between Kaladin and Shallan about class stratification and oppression; feels like apologism for those with privilege.


I really enjoyed their whole dialogue in the caverns. And in their first meeting ("I AM OFFEND"). And their second meeting ("Hi, I remember you. Let's have a shouting match in the middle of all the high princes, sound fun?"). Really all of their interactions are top notch. A lot of people are cringing at "omg not a love triangle!", but like Dragonus and I were discussing, I trust Sanderson, and I'm more than happy to see where this goes.


-Shallan's father is dead...and not by the Shardblade. Good riddance.

That murder was particularly brutal.



-No...Syl better not be dead!


Didn't she die when Kaladin fell into the chasm? That was where she screamed at least.


-That was an extremely interesting interlude.


Yeah Taravangian's interlude was full of all sorts of great information.

[ICN]

As much as that tyrant line bothered me, I find that I'm just as bothered by the fact that if things keep getting worse and worse it might just be true. So what did you think of the TARAVANGIAN parts, have you read when they say what his wish was yet? I have a theory on it I want to run by someone but I can't remember when in the book it was stated.

The Taravangian interlude was in the last set I believe. As for your theory, I think we may be of similar mindsets. My guess is that the capacity to save humankind he received was compassion, not intelligence.

[Seerow]

The Taravangian interlude was in the last set I believe. As for your theory, I think we may be of similar mindsets. My guess is that the capacity to save humankind he received was compassion, not intelligence.

So that would make the fluctuating intelligence his curse, but he is misinterpreting it horribly and assuming the curse is the boon and vice verca...

That is so insidious it's my new headcannon. I figured Taravangian's faction was bad news, and this is a solid theory for what went wrong

[Dragonus45]

The Taravangian interlude was in the last set I believe. As for your theory, I think we may be of similar mindsets. My guess is that the capacity to save humankind he received was compassion, not intelligence.

That is my exact theory. Nice to know someone else had the same idea.




Eh, I honestly still am not sure how Jasnah survived. I mean, Stormlight makes you durable, and will let you recover from nearly anything, but we're talking about a coup de grace. A knife straight to the heart. I'm guessing it'll be something like she had seconds left and transported herself to Shadesmar before her body could die, and in Shadesmar her body wasn't needed to survive. So she could stay there while recovering before coming back. Which is why she stayed away for 2-3 months at such a crucial time.

And thanks for the source on the quote. It seems that the quote was specifying Sazed's new sword has a lot more magic invested into it. So now I'm curious how that compares to say an Honor Blade, or the blade of a Radiant who hasn't fallen (if those even count as items, and not raw magic?). Also not entirely sure what that extra magic actually translates to in terms of combat potential. I really need to reread Warbreaker it seems.


Well the thing that kills you when you get stabbed is either the blood loss lowering blood pressure or lack of oxygen to the brain, Szeth has gone almost a quarter of an hour if not more without breathing with stormlight inside of him. Plus when the fell it seems like Shalan reflexively drew the stormlight in, when Shallan tipped over the goblet of spheres its possible it game Jasnah the energy she needed to make that escape. Also from the way some of the stuff was described it appears that Honorblades are leaps and bounds ahead of shard blades so I want to see that fight now, although an Un-fallen radiant's blade may not have a whole lot more Investiture than and fallen ones.

[IthilanorStPete]

Finished, and reactions to part 5 posted. Wow...what a book. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Posting the part 5 reactions here:

Part 5

-Time to brace for the Sanderson Avalanche!
-Hah! Dalinar can be a little tricky when needed. Stuff it, Amaram!
-from the epigram: So the Shin do have all the missing Shardblades! Another theory confirmed!
-Wait, when did Shallan show Dalinar her Shardblade? I'm losing track of exactly who knows what.
-"From the Diagram, Catechism of the Back of the Flowered Painting..." That's pretty hilarious.
-Now I'm feeling sorry for Elhokar of all people. Not that much, admittedly.
-Here comes the storm. The Everstorm comes...
-"I am sorry that you have to die this way." The Everstorm comes...
-Ah...looks like the Stormfather's a Sliver of Honor.
-"A daughter disobeys." Please let Syl be alive, please please please :smalleek:
-Something's up with Renarin...by his reaction to his Blade, I'm guessing we can add him to the roster of Knights Radiant-to-be
-And there goes Eshonai...
-And here comes Szeth.
-Kaladin just will not stop, will he?
-SYL!
-"The Knights Radiant have returned." YES!
-Oh my gosh Kaladin keeps getting more and more awesome!
-Windrunner fight, round 2!
-Shardblades are dead spren, apparently...no wonder Syl didn't like them.
-Shardspear!
-Wow, the Oathgate is big!
-Goodbye, Szeth. At least you went out with a fight.
-So that's what an Honorblade is.
-He hid Elhokar with Lopen! Excellent!
-She killed her mother. Oh, Shallan.
-The Herald of Justice!
-...
-...
-NIGHTBLOOD!
-CRISIS CROSSOVER COMMENCE!

-Oh, and Adolin killed Sadeas. Good riddance.

-Dalinar just bonded the Stormfather. Nice. And he's the Bondsmith.
-Yup, Renarin's a Radiant. Truthwatcher.

...NIGHTBLOOD!

And Jasnah's alive! :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

You read like crazy fast. An hour and a half between sections 4 and 5? Jeeze.




-from the epigram: So the Shin do have all the missing Shardblades! Another theory confirmed!


Not all of the missing Shardblades. The only thing confirmed is they have the Honor Blades. Which is far more important. Unless the epigraph said they also have the shardblades and I missed it.


-Kaladin just will not stop, will he?
-SYL!
-"The Knights Radiant have returned." YES!
-Oh my gosh Kaladin keeps getting more and more awesome!
-Windrunner fight, round 2!

Yes! The whole sequence with Syl defying the stormfather was amazing. The fight with Szeth felt like it was trying too hard, but it was awesome anyway.


-He hid Elhokar with Lopen! Excellent!

Favorite scene in the book :D


-She killed her mother. Oh, Shallan.

Now think what that means for her Dad. Poor Shallan's dad. Poor Shallan's whole family. If only Shallan's mom hadn't been crazy.



-NIGHTBLOOD!
-CRISIS CROSSOVER COMMENCE!


Now tell me, who is Zahel?


-Yup, Renarin's a Radiant. Truthwatcher.

Now knowing that, go back and reread the sections with Renarin, and see how awesome he really is. Consider: To bond a shardblade you have to hold it continuously for 5 days. He was already bonded to a spren and listening to that screaming the entire time. And never said a word of complaint to anybody.

[IthilanorStPete]

You read like crazy fast. An hour and a half between sections 4 and 5? Jeeze.

I do. Also, I haven't really been doing anything else today.





Not all of the missing Shardblades. The only thing confirmed is they have the Honor Blades. Which is far more important. Unless the epigraph said they also have the shardblades and I missed it.

I was taking a guess; in retrospect, it's probably referring to the Honorblades.


Now think what that means for her Dad. Poor Shallan's dad. Poor Shallan's whole family. If only Shallan's mom hadn't been crazy.

Yeah. I agree with you that it really changes the Shallan flashbacks.
...still not feeling terribly sorry for Mr. Davar, though.


Now tell me, who is Zahel?

Is he Vasher? Doesn't really seem like him, though that might be the change in Sanderson's writing since Warbreaker.


Now knowing that, go back and reread the sections with Renarin, and see how awesome he really is. Consider: To bond a shardblade you have to hold it continuously for 5 days. He was already bonded to a spren and listening to that screaming the entire time. And never said a word of complaint to anybody.


That is quite impressive. I like Renarin even more than I already did.



Other responses:




Responses to Ithilanor (avoiding giving spoilers beyond the point where he's at)
As in they're polar opposites? Yeah, I'm not sure I understand the Lightweavers/Cryptics. All of the orders are formed from spren that are shards of Honor AFAIK, but where is the honor in what the Cryptics do? In what Pattern is pushing Shallan towards becoming? It's interesting, I want to learn more about it.

Yeah, I don't really get it either. They sound connected to the Truthwatchers...I wonder if Renarin can create illusions? We've got a list of the Surges from the Ars Arcanum, I need to reread the epigraphs to see which pairs correspond to the different orders.


Yeah, I liked him a lot more this time around. Possibly because he's helping the good guys instead of trying to get Kaladin murdered. I was also surprised to see Tsvalkov show back up. (I'm pretty sure it was the same slaver that Kaladin was sold to Sadeas by).

Yep, same guy. Interesting story of redemption, with Gaz and the other deserters.


Um... I must have missed this. Is this referring to Rock giving the Horneater origin story? I don't remember that being about the Horneaters getting powers. Care to refresh my memory/elaborrate on this?

The power to see spren, not Surgebinding. Rock said he met a "god" in the hot springs, calling him "Lunu'anaki, god of travel and mischief". Maybe it was Hoid?


This was really the point where I was wondering if Roshar has more than a half dozen different plants. I mean first Shallan was milking knobweed for medicine, then we get the flashback with her getting the same poisonous leaf that Kaladin was carrying around when he was at his worst? I know law of conservation of detail, but jeeze. Just make up a different name for the poison.

I got that same feeling. :smallmad:


And remember, this means Kaladin was the one who murdered the one person Shallan looked to for stability and support in her crazy family. That's a mess waiting to happen.

Wouldn't call it murder, exactly, but...yeah.


Definitely one of the best sequences in the book. That whole thing. It was like a repeat of the Sidecarry again. Kaladin does everything right, and still manages to screw up the big picture. Still, nobody can fault the man's guts.

Amen to that.




So that would make the fluctuating intelligence his curse, but he is misinterpreting it horribly and assuming the curse is the boon and vice verca...

That is so insidious it's my new headcannon. I figured Taravangian's faction was bad news, and this is a solid theory for what went wrong

I like that theory.

[Dragonus45]

About Zahel, the line about not hearing a voice he expected pretty much seals it for me that he is Vasher.

[Eldan]

Oh man! It's out! Why didn't I know! I don't think I'll be able to re-read all of Way of Kings this weekend and now I will be starting Words of Radiance later than possible! That's unexpectable!

[ICN]

So, random speculation time.

Knights Radiant get their powers from bonding with a spren. Is it possible to bond with one of the evil spren? If anyone does end up doing just that, I'd put my money on Adolin.

If shardblades can take on whatever form the user wants, why are all of the old ones swords? Was it just traditional back in the day? Maybe swords best utilize the advantages of a shardblade? Still seems odd to me.

Also, poor Lopen. All those one-armed Herdazian jokes of his are going to be useless now.

[Dragonus45]

So, random speculation time.

Knights Radiant get their powers from bonding with a spren. Is it possible to bond with one of the evil spren? If anyone does end up doing just that, I'd put my money on Adolin.

If shardblades can take on whatever form the user wants, why are all of the old ones swords? Was it just traditional back in the day? Maybe swords best utilize the advantages of a shardblade? Still seems odd to me.

Also, poor Lopen. All those one-armed Herdazian jokes of his are going to be useless now.

I think that swords were just the traditional weapon of Knights, the only reason in even occurred to Kaladin to want something else was the fact that he was trained in spears. Considering the idea that the shardblades were created to do battle with something fairly large feather light greatswords was probably the order of the day anywways, better use of the slashing ability. Now i kind of want to see Kal with spear that has a sword sized blade on the end, or would that be too silly.

[Seerow]

Oh man! It's out! Why didn't I know! I don't think I'll be able to re-read all of Way of Kings this weekend and now I will be starting Words of Radiance later than possible! That's unexpectable!

*gasp*

But seriously, with all of the promoting TOR has been doing for WoR for the last two months, I assumed everyone knew it was coming.


Knights Radiant get their powers from bonding with a spren. Is it possible to bond with one of the evil spren? If anyone does end up doing just that, I'd put my money on Adolin.

Honestly I thought that was what was happening with Szeth at the end until the sword spoke to him. But right now the only ones we know for sure can bind Voidspren are the Listeners.


I think that swords were just the traditional weapon of Knights, the only reason in even occurred to Kaladin to want something else was the fact that he was trained in spears. Considering the idea that the shardblades were created to do battle with something fairly large feather light greatswords was probably the order of the day anywways, better use of the slashing ability. Now i kind of want to see Kal with spear that has a sword sized blade on the end, or would that be too silly.

In addition to this, I saw some speculation that during past desolations, they came soon enough after each other that the people didn't really have time to recover and learn between them. In Taln's speech, he mentions teaching them to make Bronze because there isn't enough time for Steel. Obviously Roshar in its current state is far more advanced technologywise than it ever was during the desolations. It's entirely possible that the people of these times straight up didn't have other weapons or developed fighting styles. Meanwhile all of the Heralds had their Honorblades, swords. When they taught people to fight, they would teach them the sword forms they knew. If all Radiants are trained on the sword and nothing else, there would be no reason for the Radiants to fight with a different type of weapon, even when they weren't fighting moving mountains.


As an aside: I want to know what happens when a shard spear pierces a person who can't heal the damage instantly. Does it act exactly like a shard blade? Can a spear be used better to incapacitate without killing? I want to know more!

[Eldan]

*gasp*

But seriously, with all of the promoting TOR has been doing for WoR for the last two months, I assumed everyone knew it was coming.


No, no I didn't know it was coming. Should have read Sanderson's website, maybe. But then, I didn't even know that there was such a thing as a "book promotion". What does that look like? I've seen a few bookstores that had cardboard signs with the newest bestsellers in their windows, but usually only when they were already out.

[Seerow]

No, no I didn't know it was coming. Should have read Sanderson's website, maybe. But then, I didn't even know that there was such a thing as a "book promotion". What does that look like? I've seen a few bookstores that had cardboard signs with the newest bestsellers in their windows, but usually only when they were already out.

It was mostly on TOR.com and Facebook.

We got something like 10% of the book via preview chapters over the course of a month or two before the release, and then after that finished for the last few weeks leading up to release they were releasing 1-2 line teasers pulled from the book.

[Douglas]

With Nightblood crossing over, I wonder how its understanding of and ability to identify evil has developed in however much time has passed since Warbreaker. Does it still mostly depend on its wielder's judgment, or is it better at independent decision making now?

Fans who hunt down interview questions and such have known for some time now that Hoid took a bead of Lerasium from the Well of Ascension. I think we now have evidence that he consumed it himself and thus became a Mistborn - in his flashback appearance, I suspect the powder he put in his drink was metal flakes to burn.

Now we know how Shardbladetransformers are made, but what about Shardplate? Will Syl get the ability to become multiple objects at once when Kaladin speaks the fourth and/or fifth Ideal(s)?

I laughed at Syl's first shape change. "Oh right, wrong weapon." *fuzz* *spear* "Better?"

[Seerow]

Fans who hunt down interview questions and such have known for some time now that Hoid took a bead of Lerasium from the Well of Ascension. I think we now have evidence that he consumed it himself and thus became a Mistborn - in his flashback appearance, I suspect the powder he put in his drink was metal flakes to burn.


According to the 17th Shard, Brandon says he actually didn't burn the bead of Lerasium. Speculation is that Hoid is using it with Feruchemy somehow to get a similar effect.


Now we know how Shardbladetransformers are made, but what about Shardplate? Will Syl get the ability to become multiple objects at once when Kaladin speaks the fourth and/or fifth Ideal(s)?


That's my guess. We still have two Ideals remaining, I'm nearly certain that one grants shardplate. Whether or not it's the spren is questionable. Note: The shardplate doesn't cause the same screaming as the blade. But the Plate does block stormlight investiture. I'm certain that's important somehow.

[Douglas]

Oh, and speaking as a Wheel of Time fan: things happen, plots resolve, and people communicate? What is this madness?!?

[3SecondCultist]

Okay, I just finished a whirlwind read myself. The rest is spoilered, for obvious reasons.

I must say... I loved this book. Sanderson fell into his 'New Jordan' role a little bit too much, with the lack of communication between his main characters and the subsequent deaths/resurrections of characters like Jasnah and Szeth. It just feels like cheating, especially in the former case where her death is used to propel the narrative arc of the book's central protagonist and then it turns out she's just chilling with Hoid in Shadesmar.

However, those are some relatively minor qualms in light of the rest of the book being MADE. OF. WIN. And those are not words I use very often. Both Windrunner battles, the four on one Shardblade duel, the entire final battle sequence, and Shallan with the Oathgate... just some awesome stuff.

First of all, regarding the Taravangian theory outlined below:


So that would make the fluctuating intelligence his curse, but he is misinterpreting it horribly and assuming the curse is the boon and vice versa...

That is so insidious it's my new headcannon. I figured Taravangian's faction was bad news, and this is a solid theory for what went wrong
I must say that I like it. The whole Diagram plot with Taravangian and his followers (like Graves! I wasn't expecting that to be honest) is pretty shaky, in the sense that they may have everything mixed up and going about it the entirely wrong way. Either way, their actions up to this point have certainly done more harm than good.

Now, is anyone else terrified of what's going to happen with Szeth and Nightblood? I tracked down the interview through the link earlier in this thread, and Sanderson does say in no vague terms that Nightblood is 'several orders of magnitude' more powerful than a Shardblade. I'm curious to see what will happen to our favorite crazy Shin!Altair, but in particular I'm looking forward to seeing how Sanderson handles his powers going forward.

And... I'm going to comment on the first hints of a love triangle in this book. Now, I don't necessarily love the way Sanderson works out his romantic subplots. The perfectly arranged marriage trope is something he has mined before. That being said, I must say that I am cautiously optimistic moving forward. The laws of narrative causality are screaming at me that Adolin is going to be relegated into the romantic false lead category, only to 'turn bad'. Regardless of the fact that it was Sadeas, he murdered a man in cold blood. This is something that Kaladin explicitly resists with Elhokar. A Knight Radiant, Adolin is not. This, to me, betrays a deep moral break between the two men, something that Shallan will eventually realize. But really, what is the most telling is the line early in Part Five (page 936, for those who are interested in the full excerpt):

"She [Shallan] liked Adolin as he was. He was kind, noble, and genuine. It didn't matter that he wasn't brilliant or... or whatever else Kaladin was."

Anyhow, I know that with the knowledge that Kaladin killed Shallan's brother, there is going to be at least a somewhat interesting development. There are ten books in this series. I certainly hope that Sanderson can carry out something like this for at least a while longer.

[IthilanorStPete]

Okay, I just finished a whirlwind read myself. The rest is spoilered, for obvious reasons.

I must say... I loved this book. Sanderson fell into his 'New Jordan' role a little bit too much, with the lack of communication between his main characters and the subsequent deaths/resurrections of characters like Jasnah and Szeth. It just feels like cheating, especially in the former case where her death is used to propel the narrative arc of the book's central protagonist and then it turns out she's just chilling with Hoid in Shadesmar.


Oh, and speaking as a Wheel of Time fan: things happen, plots resolve, and people communicate? What is this madness?!?

I was worried for a while about the main characters not opening up to each other...but unlike WoT, they generally had good reasons to keep things quiet, and they eventually started talking. It's a very good sign that things keep developing and progressing. I kind of agree with 3SecondCultist on the use of fake-outs, but I imagine he'll stop pulling punches at some point. Remember Kelsier.


After doing a little bit of rereading earlier today, a few notes, comments, and questions:

-Between the name and the use of "babsk" near the end, it looks like Mraize is Thaylen. Rysn's interludes might be more significant than I thought.
-On that topic, it looks like the larkin Rysn got from the Reshi is some sort of Investiture-sucking creature - Darkness/Nin/Nalan used one against Lift.
-Do we know who Nazh is? That's the name on several of the drawings. I have a suspicion he's the writer of the Ars Arcanum.
-We've got a lot of different groups to keep track of. Here's how I count them:
--the main cast, the new Knights Radiant
--the Ghostbloods - Mraize, Highlord Thaidakar, Iyatil, Shallan's father. Possibly connected to the Skybreakers by way of Helaran. If they're worldhoppers and associated with Nin, that would explain some things.
--the Diagram - Taravangian & co., Graves, Moash. I think we pretty much know what's going on here.
--the Sons of Honor - Amaram, Restares. These guys seem like the least insightful, most short-sighted group of the bunch.
--the listeners, the Parshendi. I can't imagine they'll just be demoted to faceless bad guys going forward.
And that doesn't even include Hoid, the various kinds of spren, the Unmade, Cultivation, or Odium.

[Huanir]

MADE. OF. WIN. And those are not words I use very often.

You expect me to believe you don't use the word "of" very often? :smallwink:

Some of my reactions follow, spoilered. These spoilers cover the entire book.



Jasnah's "death" could be considered cheap, but I still reacted appropriately at the right times. If nothing else, the belief that she was dead was necessary.
Tyn put me in an interesting position, in that I liked her, but I hated what she was doing to Shallan's plot (Isilel on tor.com suggested this kind of reaction is a knee-jerk reflex honed by reading Wheel of Time and recognizing longform plot distractions at a glance). Still, she was the impetus for Shallan summoning her Shardblade, and as Alice Arneson put it, that's enough for me to forgive her for existing.
Reading Navani's epigraphs was torture (in a good way).
NIGHTBLOOD! I have a friend reading Words of Radiance right now who's not read Warbreaker; I intend to interrogate him quite thoroughly to determine what that experience is like, and I'll do so again if he goes back to read Warbreaker in the future. Also, good catch by Dragonus45 regarding Zahel listening for a voice.
Was the revelation that Shallan killed her mother supposed to be a surprising? The wording of her first flashback had me thinking this was the case as early as Chapter 10, and future flashbacks (Malise calling Shallan the one who deserved Davar's wrath, "The lie becomes the truth" in chapter 73 regarding Davar killing Malise) confirmed it well before her final flashback.
If I didn't know that this was a 10-book series, I'd have thought that it was a trilogy. Things happen so much sooner than I expected them to!
Sanderson's often talked about villains thinking they're heroes, and that's definitely at play here; however misguided and brutal some of these characters are, nobody left alive at the end of the book thinks they're doing the wrong thing (but screw Sadeas and his executing of surrendering Parshendi, plotting against Dalinar even at book's end, and all-around awfulness; I fear for Adolin's coming through Book 3 intact, but I'm not sad to see Sadeas go).
After Szeth and Jasnah, I have little doubt that Eshonai lives.

[Douglas]

NIGHTBLOOD! I have a friend reading Words of Radiance right now who's not read Warbreaker; I intend to interrogate him quite thoroughly to determine what that experience is like, and I'll do so again if he goes back to read Warbreaker in the future.
I'm a bit curious about what portion of WoR readers have no idea what we're all talking about with this "Nightblood" thing. I expect book 3 will explain enough about it for people who haven't read Warbreaker to get by, but it'll still probably be much more of a mystery for them - and for all the characters in-world who encounter it.

I wonder how Nightblood's abilities and effects will be changed by operating in a world where either Breaths don't exist or no one (not counting Hoid) has the ability to use them. Will Stormlight function as a substitute? Is Breath-draining a requirement for it to function, or just an effect? Will Roshar get its first Drabs?


After Szeth and Jasnah, I have little doubt that Eshonai lives.
"Little"? Try "none". She's a Parshendi, in Stormform, wearing Shardplate that wasn't greatly damaged, and all that happened to her was a bit of a fall. Of course she's alive, and will likely eventually (after much trials and tribulation) manage to exit Stormform and return to her usual self to be properly horrified by what she's done and put in some effort at trying to turn the Parshendi back.

Speaking of the Parshendi, they really didn't think their worries about Stormform through. They knew they had been mind-controlled by their gods in the past in certain forms, and they were worried about Stormform being a form connected to their gods. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out from those two facts that testimony from someone who is currently in Stormform cannot be trusted, and their plan for testing it should have been to have someone enter Stormform, exit it in the next Highstorm, and then tell about it, with mandatory quarantine (resistance of which to be interpreted as proof that the form is bad) in between.

I can't blame them too much for it, though. It's a manner of thinking they're not used to, their best scholar had already made up her mind and was aggressively advocating it, they were pressed for time, and the "one of each form" structure of their ruling council really didn't help - Dullform has handicapped intelligence, Mateform has to deal with strong distracting urges, and Workform has that mental block about confrontation, leaving only Eshonai herself to have a good unobstructed chance of thinking of the problem and pushing its solution.

[Dragonus45]

You expect me to believe you don't use the word "of" very often? :smallwink:

Some of my reactions follow, spoilered. These spoilers cover the entire book.



Was the revelation that Shallan killed her mother supposed to be a surprising? The wording of her first flashback had me thinking this was the case as early as Chapter 10, and future flashbacks (Malise calling Shallan the one who deserved Davar's wrath, "The lie becomes the truth" in chapter 73 regarding Davar killing Malise) confirmed it well before her final flashback.



Its the situation that makes it a real surprise. I assumed that she did it accidentally or that she was the reason her father killed her mother, not that her mother tried to kill her because of 9 or so secret societies running around the damn place.

[Seerow]

I'm a bit curious about what portion of WoR readers have no idea what we're all talking about with this "Nightblood" thing. I expect book 3 will explain enough about it for people who haven't read Warbreaker to get by, but it'll still probably be much more of a mystery for them - and for all the characters in-world who encounter it.


I've read Warbreaker, but only once and it was some time ago and it didn't really stick with me. I didn't catch the connection at all until hitting the Internet after the fact. My first thought was that it was a Voidspren Blade.


I wonder how Nightblood's abilities and effects will be changed by operating in a world where either Breaths don't exist or no one (not counting Hoid) has the ability to use them. Will Stormlight function as a substitute? Is Breath-draining a requirement for it to function, or just an effect? Will Roshar get its first Drabs?


Over on 17th Shard I saw someone link a Word of Brandon that Nightblood drains Investiture, which would include Stormlight on Roshar.


I can't blame them too much for it, though. It's a manner of thinking they're not used to, their best scholar had already made up her mind and was aggressively advocating it, they were pressed for time, and the "one of each form" structure of their ruling council really didn't help - Dullform has handicapped intelligence, Mateform has to deal with strong distracting urges, and Workform has that mental block about confrontation, leaving only Eshonai herself to have a good unobstructed chance of thinking of the problem and pushing its solution.

Yeah that style of governance has some very real problems. On the bright side, their government is all but gone now.


Jasnah's "death" could be considered cheap, but I still reacted appropriately at the right times. If nothing else, the belief that she was dead was necessary.


Agree that the story required Shallan at least to believe she was dead, to push her to develop on her own. I also understand we have 10 orders to learn about, and will likely have at least one major character from each order. Losing a major character from an Order nobody else is a part of would be really rough. But on the other hand, we got no fewer than 3 major character resurrections in the last quarter of the book, and that is really annoying.

I think I would have been happier had Szeth stayed dead, and Jasnah got an Interlude somewhere in the middle showing she was still alive in Shadesmar, hiding/recovering, rather than Jasnah popping up suddenly again in the Epilogue.


Tyn put me in an interesting position, in that I liked her, but I hated what she was doing to Shallan's plot (Isilel on tor.com suggested this kind of reaction is a knee-jerk reflex honed by reading Wheel of Time and recognizing longform plot distractions at a glance). Still, she was the impetus for Shallan summoning her Shardblade, and as Alice Arneson put it, that's enough for me to forgive her for existing.


See, I loved Tyn. I was very sad when she turned on Shallan and got herself killed so early on. One of the more dynamic and interesting characters. But she was in the same boat as Jasnah in that she had to die to give Shallan room to grow.


Was the revelation that Shallan killed her mother supposed to be a surprising? The wording of her first flashback had me thinking this was the case as early as Chapter 10, and future flashbacks (Malise calling Shallan the one who deserved Davar's wrath, "The lie becomes the truth" in chapter 73 regarding Davar killing Malise) confirmed it well before her final flashback.


I suspected it after Chapter 10, but having it confirmed was another thing entirely. And taking that knowledge and reconsidering the events her family went through in the correct context really puts a major spin on things.


If I didn't know that this was a 10-book series, I'd have thought that it was a trilogy. Things happen so much sooner than I expected them to!


My understanding is the series is 10 books, but it will be broken into two sections of 5. So this storyarc of the Everstorm and such should be wrapped up within 3 more books, which seems much more reasonable. Also I remember seeing a WoB that some of the interlude characters we're seeing are being set up as more major characters for the second half (Such as Lift).


-Do we know who Nazh is? That's the name on several of the drawings. I have a suspicion he's the writer of the Ars Arcanum.


He's a Worldhopper. His drawings show up in one of Sanderson's other books. I don't remember which offhand, but that's a thing.

[Douglas]

The various notes on the drawings are amusing. "You owe me a new coat for what I had to go through to recover this.":smallamused: Such understated implication about things that happened off-page.

[Kitten Champion]

Something that's kind of been bothering me, but why do the Kholin family, Torol Sadeas, and Shallan Davar have surnames while the rest of the Alethi nobility don't seem to.

Is it simply how they're referred to from the perspective of the characters involved? Because I would assume they have full names.

As to the book

I felt there was too much padding in the middle. Shallan's history was more interesting through subtle references than spelling it out, there are too many vague conspiracies going about, and Kaladin's continued character arc could be reduced the last quarter of the book. Although Shallan as a protagonist, as this was mostly her book, was well done. I was worried that she was becoming more Mary Sue-ish through the first half of the book, but her interactions with Adolin and Kaladin were very human and cooled off much of my anxiety with regards to her.

I would've liked to have some of Renarin's perspective before they revealed he was a Radiant. The reveal wasn't that surprising, and he seemed to be having a more interesting experience than what was going on in some chapters, his relegation to the background felt like a missed opportunity.

Other than that, I'm curious to see where this is going. Seeing the reestablishment of the Knights Radiant is going to be fun. It's nice having a book about paladins which treats them as complex people, I'd really like to know what transgression the Radiants committed to end their order in the first place.

[Seerow]

Something that's kind of been bothering me, but why do the Kholin family, Torol Sadeas, and Shallan Davar have surnames while the rest of the Alethi nobility don't seem to.

Is it simply how they're referred to from the perspective of the characters involved? Because I would assume they have full names.

The majority of the time Sadeas doesn't get referred to as Torol Sadeas, or Torol, but as Sadeas. I always assumed all of the other high princes are typically just referred to by their House Name.

[Battleship789]

Great read! I stayed up way too late finishing it...

Nazh: apparently it has been confirmed by Peter Ahlstrom that Nazh is not the writer of the Ars Arcanum (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6274-interior-art/#entry101628), though all of them are written by the same person.

On Jasnah surviving: she could have teleported the knife strike so she didn't get hit, but was still on board the ship when it capsized, without any Stormlight left over to teleport/Soulcast, which would explain the condition of her clothing. I have to admit that I was rather surprised that she "died" that early in the book.

Hoid: Speculation is that Hoid is gathering up investiture from every world for...something. We know who he was on his original planet (assuming Brandon doesn't change/completely throw away Liar of Partinel), but what he was after that/is now is up for debate. Some speculate he was to Adonalsium as Rayse/Tanavast are to Odium/Honor (my personal feeling). Other theories include that he accidentally broke Adonalsium (either meshed with the previous idea or as a stand alone), knew Adonalsium personally, and others that I don't remember at the moment.

Speaking of Hoid, it was cool to see the reference to his home planet Yolen in the Lightweaving section of the Ars Arcanum, as well as the response to his letter from WoK from his friend?/associate.

On the assignment of powers for KR: in the Ars Arcanum list of surges, pick any two neighboring powers and they are an order (with the first and last powers of the list being one as well.)

I enjoyed the confirmation that Taravangian's intelligence varied day by day and that his course of action was based off of the visions (though my thought was that Taravangian was the one receiving them, not that he was told them by Gaviliar). I believe that the 17S member who got this theory confirmed before WoR confirmed that the varied intelligence was the curse, but it has been a depressingly long time since I visited that site regularly. :smallfrown:

So, how many factions do we have now on Roshar? The Ghostbloods, Amaram's group, The Diagram members, Dalinar/Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan's group, each Herald (depending on who they are working with, other than Taln), Lift/the emperor, Jasnah (if she can be considered separate from Dalinar's group), Hoid, the Seventeenth Shard worldhoppers, the various spren communities, Cultivation, and Odium/Parshendi?

[Helanna]

Okay, finally got through the last bit of the book! It's 2:30 am and I need to be up in six hours, but I got to the last hundred pages and couldn't stop.

My reactions:


First things first. Best scene in the book? Nightblood's introduction. I laughed for ten straight minutes, I nearly woke my family. I was expecting a lot of things from this book, but nothing prepared me for that. :smallbiggrin:

Second best scene: Lopen inhaling Stormlight. "Wait! Come back! I need to stick you to the wall! And bring some spheres! I have glowing that needs to be done!" I was so happy for him! He always wanted to do it, but I didn't think it was gonna happen! Yay for Lopen.

Anyway . . . Noooooooo! Jasnah! Another favorite character killed! Why does this keep happening?! So the epilogue made me extremely happy. I was kind of hoping for Jasnah to somehow be alive - after all, with all the magic powers floating around in this world, it's a looooong way from impossible - but I didn't really think it was going to happen.

I found Shallan to be a lot more interesting and likable in this book. I didn't really like her in the first one, but in this one she was a lot more sympathetic and interesting. I really liked her taking Jasnah's example of acting like you have power in order to obtain it, and using it to subdue a group of ruthless deserters.

Oddly, I found Kaladin to be more irritating - dammit Kaladin, I understand why you're acting like you are, but do you really think assassinating the king could ever be a good idea? Look what you did to Syl! Hopefully Kaladin's over this whole lighteyes hatred. Sadeas is dead and Amaram is revealed and discredited, so maybe you can trust Dalinar now, yeah?

Um . . . Sadeas is dead. On the one hand, I'm extremely pleased. He was just going to be an enormous pain, and frankly killing him probably makes the most sense. Also, I just kind of love Adolin snapping and straight-up murdering him. Reminds me of Vaarsuvius' "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." solution. Or, spoilers for BBC Sherlock:

How Sherlock took care of Magnussen.

Same reason I loved those, too - it's so refreshing to see a smug, oily, frustrating character brag about how they're 'untouchable', only to have another character take the direct route. On the other hand . . . refreshing as it may be to watch, it's definitely not a good thing for Adolin. Murder is the practical solution, but not the ethical one. It really goes against the First Ideal, and I'm worried about what it means for Adolin. (On a side note, freaking love that Adolin locked himself in prison with Kaladin. Maybe there's hope for him yet.)

On a random note: It's most noticeable in Lift's interlude, but I really enjoy the way Sanderson uses modern slang, like Lift's "awesomeness". It always jars me a little, because it's something I'm really not expecting from epic fantasy, but it makes sense to use. It makes the characters seem a bit more real to me, I guess? A lot of epic fantasy is based in real-world history, and speak like they're from that era. Which I do like sometimes, but it's nice to see characters not from the modern era, but using modern slang. Kind of drives home that these characters aren't supposed to be from our past, they're on their own world, in what's modern times for them, so of course they're using modern slang. Presumably it's just being translated to an English equivalent. Does that make sense? I am explaining this very poorly. I need to go to bed.



Oh, and speaking as a Wheel of Time fan: things happen, plots resolve, and people communicate? What is this madness?!?

Loved that. I laughed in the beginning when Kaladin and Shallan were both worrying about hiding their Surgebinding from each other, and all the while Dalinar was looking for Surgebinders, but I was impressed when they actually all started talking and revealing their secrets. And look how well it ended! Amazing! I do love WoT, a lot, but the sheer pace of this series is pretty refreshing. I am using that word a lot today. I just find Sanderson to be a refreshing author.


I was worried for a while about the main characters not opening up to each other...but unlike WoT, they generally had good reasons to keep things quiet, and they eventually started talking. It's a very good sign that things keep developing and progressing. I kind of agree with 3SecondCultist on the use of fake-outs, but I imagine he'll stop pulling punches at some point. Remember Kelsier.



I am okay with the resurrections at the end of this book because I am 100% sure that by the end of the series, there will be dead characters. Probably a lot of them, killed in sudden, shocking, and devastating manners. And probably my favorites. Sorry, Renarin, past patterns indicate you're a goner. :smallfrown:




After Szeth and Jasnah, I have little doubt that Eshonai lives.


What? Don't be ridiculous. Eshonai was an important Parshendi leader, our main insight into the Parshendi camp, in stormform, in full Plate, who fell off a tall ledge, and no body was ever recovered. She's clearly gone forever. :smallwink:

[Maethirion]

Just finished this. All I really have to say is WOW. That was just a really good read.


My personal favourite parts of the book were the interactions between the characters. Shallan and Kaladin in the chasms, Shallan and Adolin's relationship, and the Kholin family in general just made for really interesting reading. Oh! And the Eshonai chapters. The completely different culture of the Parshendi, and their attuning to different emotions was just interesting. I liked that Kaladin started to pick up on it towards the end with Rlain.

... of course the awesome moments like the windrunner fight, and the duel were pretty darn awesome too, just in a different way.

I also just love Sanderson's ability to inject a bit of humour into serious books - things like "From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation" made me laugh.

I missed the Nightblood reference at first - it's been far too long since I've read Warbreaker. My first thought was that Szeth was being somehow forcibly bound to a spren.

I'm with Helanna on the resurrections. I'm ok with it because I imagine there are going to be plenty of deaths as time goes on, and none of them felt like they came out of nowhere. Jasnah's order's ability beyond soulcasting hadn't really been expounded on, and had been implied to be something to do with Shadesmar, so I can entirely understand her escaping there. And Szeth being revived like... I've forgotten his name, but he's now an emperor, was made perfect sense to me.

The relatively huge amount of cosmere tie-in was interesting, from references to 'Yolish' lightweaving (I'm interested that it's the 'original Yolish variant' - does that imply that surges, or possibly all investiture originates on Yolen, and has been watered down from there?), to Nightblood, to references to investiture. I liked it, but I'd be curious to see the thoughts of someone who hasn't read the other books or heard about the cosmere.


Unfortunately, I'm reading an ebook on a very small screen, so haven't been able to take a proper look at the illustrations, which look amazing. I'll have to get hold of a physical copy soon, but they don't seem to be in actual bookshops around here. I may have to resort to online shopping. Is there anything in the diagrams that's really important to know at this point?

[Dragonus45]

So I just had a second though about Taravangian I wan't to run by you guys, the reason why it seems like his plans fell through, and he utterly failed to kill Dalinar is because his smarter self is lying to his stupider selves, everything that happened on the plateau really was part of his plan but he was convinced that the lesser hims wont like the true final outcome and is pulling one over on them. Probaly because is super sociopath self went for a real solution, but it was also one that might have a higher cost than a riskier one or because he assumed he was the obvious person to be the ruler of everything when all is said and done.

[Tom Tearcamel]

Maethirion, if you want to get good renditions of the artwork, Brandon (well one of his assistants probably) has posted all of the Stormlight books' art in high def on his website, so people who listen to audio books (and I guess read small E-readers) can experience them. http://brandonsanderson.com/books/the-stormlight-archive/words-of-radiance/stormlight-2-maps-and-illustrations/

[Dragonus45]

Maethirion, if you want to get good renditions of the artwork, Brandon (well one of his assistants probably) has posted all of the Stormlight books' art in high def on his website, so people who listen to audio books (and I guess read small E-readers) can experience them. http://brandonsanderson.com/books/the-stormlight-archive/words-of-radiance/stormlight-2-maps-and-illustrations/

I was on an e book as well thanks.

[Shale]

I completely agree with the comment about padding in the middle of the book, but holy CATS were the beginning and the end great.

[Maethirion]

Maethirion, if you want to get good renditions of the artwork, Brandon (well one of his assistants probably) has posted all of the Stormlight books' art in high def on his website, so people who listen to audio books (and I guess read small E-readers) can experience them. http://brandonsanderson.com/books/the-stormlight-archive/words-of-radiance/stormlight-2-maps-and-illustrations/

Ah, brilliant. That's really handy. Thank you!

[CasinovaRock23]

Okay, so I've read TWoK & WoR (just finished). I've also read the Mistborn trilogy (haven't read Alloy of Law) and Warbreaker... so I feel relatively well versed in most of Sanderson's more powerful magic systems...

...BUT, I have apparently been very out of the loop with regards to interviews/discussion about how these worlds might be able to somehow interact. When WoR ended and you know who got that sword that talked to him I was pretty confused, is this really supposed to be related to Nightblood somehow?

A brief summary of the facts surrounding Brandon's plans (or lack thereof) for magic-crossover would be most appreciated!

[huttj509]

Okay, so I've read TWoK & WoR (just finished). I've also read the Mistborn trilogy (haven't read Alloy of Law) and Warbreaker... so I feel relatively well versed in most of Sanderson's more powerful magic systems...

...BUT, I have apparently been very out of the loop with regards to interviews/discussion about how these worlds might be able to somehow interact. When WoR ended and you know who got that sword that talked to him I was pretty confused, is this really supposed to be related to Nightblood somehow?

A brief summary of the facts surrounding Brandon's plans (or lack thereof) for magic-crossover would be most appreciated!

Similar to what I was going to ask. I've read most of his books (need to reread Warbreaker, and have not read The Rithmatist or Elantris). Bit thrown at references to things like Investiture.

Do Rithmatist or Elantris get more into it, or is all the meta stuff besides the scattered bits and pieces (such as "something's up with Wit" for example) from external interviews and such?

Trying to figure out what I'm missing from where.

[pikeamus]

All his original setting adult books (so not Rithmatist, Steelheart, legion, Alcatraz etc) are in the same universe: Cosmere. They therefor all share the same metaphysics (things like the three realms and the shards) and all the magic systems have some relation to one another.

There is an overall timeline between the stories. I'm not 100% sure but I think it goes:
Elantris
Mistborn
Warbreaker
Alloy of Law era Mistborn
Stormlight books

There are definitely some figures that have travelled between worlds, the most notable of whom is called Hoid. Others I think are mostly implied so far, though I may be wrong about that.

I think the major background mythology, stuff about Adonalsium shattering into the 16 shards, comes mostly from interviews. I suspect it'll become a bit more apparent later in the Stormlight books and also in the Hoid book that he intends to write later on. I don't reckon it's that important to the individual stories so far.

[Douglas]

Crossover explanation (spoilers for many, if not every, of Brandon's adult novels):
Figuring it out all started when someone noticed that Brandon had reused a character name - Hoid - and asked him about it. He answered that it was actually the same character. Not a reused character, but literally in-setting the same guy.

Various bits, pieces, and hints of it all have gradually started appearing in the books, getting more blatant a little at a time as time goes on, and some of the more dedicated fans have gotten pretty aggressive about spotting these, tying it into the overall picture, and asking for more.

Most of Brandon's books are set in the same universe, which he calls the Cosmere. The worlds of Elantris, Warbreaker, Mistborn, and Way of Kings are all in the Cosmere, and there are several more worlds that he hasn't published anything for yet. The Emperor's Soul is set in the same world as Elantris, btw.

Hoid has made an appearance in some minor role in every Cosmere book to date, though he does not always use that name.

In the Cosmere setting, once upon a time there was something called Adonalsium. Best guess so far is that Adonalsium was essentially god. Something happened long ago that broke Adonalsium into 16 Shards. Ruin and Preservation from Mistborn are 2 of these Shards, and one of the chapter epigraphs in Hero of Ages contains the first published mention of the name Adonalsium. There are 2 other Shards on the world of Elantris, both now dead and shattered, which are responsible for that world's magic system(s) and much of the origin of its religions. There is 1 Shard on the Warbreaker world, which is alive and well and gives the Returned their extra-powerful Breaths.

In Way of Kings, the Almighty held a Shard of Adonalsium. His name before he took it up was Tanavast, and the Shard itself is Honor. He is dead, and the Honor Shard is broken. Another Shard present on the world is Cultivation, who may still be alive.

The true big bad of the Stormlight Archive is the Shard named Odium, whose holder was once a man named Rayse. Odium killed and splintered Honor long ago, and is also responsible for the deaths and breaking of Elantris' 2 Shards. His ultimate goal is to break every Shard of Adonalsium other than his own, becoming the only being in the universe at his level of power.

There is an organization called the 17th Shard, which is aware of much of this information and has the ability to travel between Cosmere setting planets. If you remember the Purelake interlude from Way of Kings, the three visitors there were members of the 17th Shard and they were looking for Hoid. Two of them are actually specific characters from other published books, IIRC (the third is from a not yet published book). The goals of the 17th Shard are unknown.

Hoid's goals are similarly unknown, though popular speculation is that he is attempting to reunite the Shards of Adonalsium in order to recreate the original somehow.

The sword given to Szeth at the end is not "related to Nightblood", it IS Nightblood. The question is who brought it from the Warbreaker world, and how and why.

Each of the planets in the Cosmere has a name on its own. Way of Kings is on Roshar, Elantris is on Sel, either Warbreaker or Mistborn is on Nalthis (not sure which), and I don't remember the other one.

One of the parts of Way of Kings has chapter epigraphs that together form a letter from Hoid to an unknown associate. Those epigraphs will make a lot more sense with all of this in mind, and are a major source of information and speculation about the crossover stuff. Similarly, there is a set of chapter epigraphs in Words of Radiance that form the reply.

[Dragonus45]

Similar to what I was going to ask. I've read most of his books (need to reread Warbreaker, and have not read The Rithmatist or Elantris). Bit thrown at references to things like Investiture.

Do Rithmatist or Elantris get more into it, or is all the meta stuff besides the scattered bits and pieces (such as "something's up with Wit" for example) from external interviews and such?

Trying to figure out what I'm missing from where.

The information is a bit all over, although as far as i know Rithmatist is a different setting. Although I loved Rithmatist so if it was in there it would make me very very happy. Anyways Investiture is the catch all name for the function of magic in the Cosmere. Its a fairly descriptive term, all of the magic involves investing energy of one form or another, most of them seen to have the caster as a conduit for the energies involved like Allomancy, the AonDor from Elantris or the Stormlight from The Stormlight Archives. A few are a little weirder like the Breath from Warbreaker and Hemalurgy but they all appear too use the same background engine with different ways of handling the actual casting. As to how everything is conected, that is a little but more nebulous. All the worlds of the Cosmere are linked by the three realms physical, cognitive, and spiritual. Now none of this is really required for any of the books, but The Coppermind (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Coppermind:Welcome) is a great resource for someone wanting to dig into the wider universe. Also the sword wasn't related to Nightblood as much as it WAS Nightblood. Now that is a scary thought. Also while there are no plans for major major crossovers until a later series, I myself will be demanding my money back if I don't get a fight between a windrunner and a mistborn before all this is over.

EDIT Swordsaged.

[Seerow]

Rithmatist is definitely a different setting. It's like an alt-history Earth or the like (sort of like Steelheart), and definitely not related to the Cosmere.

To elaborrate a little on what Douglas said and answer the core question: A lot of the information is scattered through the books, and nearly as much comes from interviews and the like. A discerning read can pick out a lot of the things people talk about (the names of the Shards, Adonalsium, Hoid, the three Realms, etc); but a lot of the other things, particularly how the things in the books interact, come from interviews. (For example questions about Shardblades being compared to Nightblood, or what happens when a magic user from one world comes to another, were being asked in Q&A years ago)

[Shale]

Earth doesn't exist in the Cosmere, so we at least know not to look for Hoid in the Steelheart books or some such. Other than that, though, the crossover elements are quickly getting kinda nuts. In a good way!

(Here's a for-instance: At one point in WoR, one of the bridgemen notes that an ardent has spent a while sitting nearby drawing a picture of the group. That ardent is a character named Nazh who previously appeared in the Mistborn sequel Alloy of Law. We only know this because if you look closely at the art of the bridge crew's brands in WoR, you can see that Nazh signed the piece, with a note about how he had to spend a long time sitting around watching bridgemen to get reference for it.)

[huttj509]

Let me clarify. I knew the gist of the Cosmere. For me, I like to put the pieces together from what he puts in the books.

So my question was not so much "what's going on with the meta story" but "where can I find the information to figure out what's going on with the meta story." So if there's published works that do more than drop hints, or online-only stories that drop more hints (or ones I was unaware of, that drop hints), etc, I'd like to know. QA sessions, not so much. I feel personally that those are outside the canon of information that a reader would be reasonably expected to find.

As to the books I listed, I just looked at the front page of WoR where it listed his books, and realized Elantris and Rithmatist were on the list, but not in my mental lexicon.

[Seerow]

Let me clarify. I knew the gist of the Cosmere. For me, I like to put the pieces together from what he puts in the books.

So my question was not so much "what's going on with the meta story" but "where can I find the information to figure out what's going on with the meta story." So if there's published works that do more than drop hints, or online-only stories that drop more hints (or ones I was unaware of, that drop hints), etc, I'd like to know. QA sessions, not so much. I feel personally that those are outside the canon of information that a reader would be reasonably expected to find.

As to the books I listed, I just looked at the front page of WoR where it listed his books, and realized Elantris and Rithmatist were on the list, but not in my mental lexicon.

As far as I know there are no online only stories. It's almost all from piecing together bits of stuff from the normal books, and Q&As. I agree with you that the average reader won't find or care about those, but unfortunately they are the basis of a good deal of the online discussion for any of Sanderson's work. However more and more of that Q&A material will be seeping into the books as time passes, and eventually those random tidbits will be cannon.

But for now at least, all of the cosmere stuff is largely in the background, and mostly intentionally on Sanderson's part, to avoid scaring away potential readers with the idea that they have to read 30 books to have any idea what's going on.

[Battleship789]

I can dredge up quotes for these, if you would like supporting statements instead of my memories...

The Cosmere is set in a dwarf galaxy, so it is not in the Milky Way. I'm not sure if it has ever been confirmed to be in a different universe, though.

Planets/Shards:

Warbreaker takes place on Nalthis, Endownment is the shard

Elantris/Emperor's Soul take place on Sel, Dominion and Devotion were the shards (the Seons and Skaze are essentially cousins to spren.)

The Mistborn series take place on Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation are the shards (Harmony is the name given to Sazed, who holds both Ruin and Preservation.)

The Stormlight Archive takes place on Roshar, Cultivation, Honor, and Odium are shards. Note that there is another habitable planet in Roshar's solar system with a shard, though we don't know the name of it yet (the book/series for that planet is called The Silence Divine).

Liar of Partinel (and it's sequel) and Dragonsteel take place on Yolen, and is the origin of Hoid (and almost certainly Adonalsium)Some alpha samples of Liar of Partinel can be found in this (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/691-verified-locations-for-unreleased-bookschapters-and-sample-chapters-of-published-books/) thread. Also, there is a single copy of Dragonsteel available at the BYU library (it was Brandon's Masters Thesis), which apparently has some spoilers.

Worldhoppers:
Hoid
Thinker - Demoux
Grump/Temoo - Galladon
Blunt - Unknown, but from an unpublished book.
Nazh
Possibly Zahel from WoR (as some have mentioned, there are thoughts that he is Vasher, which could explain how Nightblood is on Roshar.)

[Helanna]

Curses, I finally find an opportunity to put my entirely pointless knowledge of the Cosmere to use, and other people have beaten me to it and done a far better job than I could have. Ah well.

I have to say, I love the Cosmere. I like all of Sanderson's books individually, but I was really excited when I found out they were all connected. I love finding all those little connections, but they're on such a subtle level that it wouldn't affect a casual reader. And of course I'm very excited that it seems like we're going to find out a lot more about the Cosmere in the Stormlight Archives. (And I quite liked Demoux in Mistborn, so I was pretty happy when he was pointed out to me.) Stormlight Archive is like an Epic Fantasy Saga on two levels - the traditional one, in which the fate of Roshar is at stake, and then the constant underlying Cosmere one.

On a side note, another reason that supports Vahez being Vasher, or at least someone else from that world, is all his weird color-related idioms. I'm sure they make a lot more sense in a world where color is so important.

[Douglas]

Let me clarify. I knew the gist of the Cosmere. For me, I like to put the pieces together from what he puts in the books.

So my question was not so much "what's going on with the meta story" but "where can I find the information to figure out what's going on with the meta story." So if there's published works that do more than drop hints, or online-only stories that drop more hints (or ones I was unaware of, that drop hints), etc, I'd like to know. QA sessions, not so much. I feel personally that those are outside the canon of information that a reader would be reasonably expected to find.
Significant portions of it are in things like chapter epigraphs and notes in the illustrations in the Stormlight Archives books. Some hints are also in the Ars Arcanum sections in the back of most of the books - they are written as actual in-world documents with in-setting authors, and said author is often a Cosmere-aware individual. The term Investiture has appeared in at least one Ars Arcanum that I recall, but I think that's the only place it's found in actual books so far.

If you're trying to limit yourself to evidence you personally find in the actual books, the primary things to pay attention to are, roughly in order: a) anything Hoid says, if you can identify him, b) any discussion of the theory behind a magic system, c) anything obviously relating to a Shard of Adonalsium, d) things outside the normal story text, such as chapter epigraphs, illustrations, and Ars Arcanum, and e) anything that seems out of place for the world it's in or makes little immediate sense.


As to the books I listed, I just looked at the front page of WoR where it listed his books, and realized Elantris and Rithmatist were on the list, but not in my mental lexicon.
Elantris is in the Cosmere, Rithmatist is not. Elantris has perhaps the smallest amount of Cosmere hints out of all the Cosmere books, though there are certain details in it people have tied to Cosmere things (in addition to Hoid's usual cameo).

[Kd7sov]

...How in the worlds did it take me almost a week (after I finished the book) to find this thread?

As it happened, I was well-primed to notice and recognize Nightblood, simply by WoR itself. It was simply the latest in a string of what I interpreted as Cosmere resonances, most notably Renarin (who, when the storms hit, seemed very much like Adien) and Syl's explanation of the Honorblade. My reaction to the latter was basically "Hang on... grants enormous power and sucks up a lot of Light? Are you sure this isn't Nightblood?"

It occurs to me that the all-forms-of-Investiture-were-on-Yolen theory makes a lot of sense, since they are specifically Shard-caused.

Incidentally, is there a specific statement somewhere that Steelheart isn't in the Cosmere? Because I've got a friend who thinks it is, and the closest I've been able to come to a rebuttal is that Calamity doesn't quite feel like how Shards' Intents have been framed elsewhere.

[Douglas]

Maybe not a specific statement about Steelheart, but he has said that Earth does not exist in the Cosmere. Steelheart is set on a fictional Earth, therefore it is not a Cosmere book.

Edit: Specific reference from Brandon's personal assistant (https://twitter.com/PeterAhlstrom/status/312684633332535296)

Edit2: Quote from Brandon himself about Earth and Cosmere (https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/22409638968295424)

[Kd7sov]

Aha.

Though there's a part of my brain that's going "exact words..."

[Ibrinar]

So how many of you actually believed Jasnah was dead? The disappearance of her body sounded like an obvious give away at the time, but when hundreds of pages passed and there wasn't any other hint about her survival I was mostly convinced that she was gone for good.
I never worried about Syl, and the remark from pattern a bit latter that it might be different if the radiants who broke their oaths were still alive confirmed it. However, I did worry that he might stay powerless for a longer period of time and I'm glad that he didn't.
Also I love that they now know about each others abilities. The good guys hiding everything from each other can get a bit tiring.

[pikeamus]

So how many of you actually believed Jasnah was dead? The disappearance of her body sounded like an obvious give away at the time, but when hundreds of pages passed and there wasn't any other hint about her survival I was mostly convinced that she was gone for good.
I never worried about Syl, and the remark from pattern a bit latter that it might be different if the radiants who broke their oaths were still alive confirmed it. However, I did worry that he might stay powerless for a longer period of time and I'm glad that he didn't.
Also I love that they now know about each others abilities. The good guys hiding everything from each other can get a bit tiring.

Like you, it took me a several hundred pages to really begin to believe Jasnah was gone. I was disappointed as I really liked her from the first book. It was only really by the time Shallan had gotten to the shattered plains and was starting out building her relationship with Adolin I finally allowed myself to believe that she wasn't going to swoop back in and tie some plot threads together.

I definitely really enjoyed how the characters in this book really did seem to be trying to do the most sensible thing. They didn't find implausible reasons to avoid talking to each other, and they didn't fumble and make things worse by failing to articulate the important parts of their story when they did speak.

Compare Kaladin telling Dalinar of Amaram's history of betrayal, which he does rationally and sensibly despite how emotional it was for him, to Kvothe's conversation with the Maer after he returns from the wilderness in Wise Man's Fear. Both had time to think about what they were going to say, one succeeds in getting the message across without making things worse for himself (Kaladin) and the other... fluffs it for no obvious reason.

Shallan did hold back somewhat when she arrived at the shattered plains, but it was a rational thing to do as she didn't have much credibility there to begin with and demonstrating her powers would have impacted her ability to investigate the secret societies. As soon as she had built up her credibility, and had some evidence that things were moving forward, she started opening up. Kaladin did hold back for awhile as well, but for very understandable reasons and when push came to shove he did the right thing.

[Helanna]

So how many of you actually believed Jasnah was dead? The disappearance of her body sounded like an obvious give away at the time, but when hundreds of pages passed and there wasn't any other hint about her survival I was mostly convinced that she was gone for good.
I never worried about Syl, and the remark from pattern a bit latter that it might be different if the radiants who broke their oaths were still alive confirmed it. However, I did worry that he might stay powerless for a longer period of time and I'm glad that he didn't.
Also I love that they now know about each others abilities. The good guys hiding everything from each other can get a bit tiring.

Nah, I thought she was a goner. In hindsight, I should never have believed that she was really dead until we saw the body and the funeral, but it was a shipwreck! It seemed like a legitimate reason for the body to disappear! And having a major character death so suddenly isn't really out of character for Sanderson, so I just figured that Jasnah had served her part in getting Shallan involved with the whole Voidbringers thing and I was just sad that Jasnah wouldn't get to finish her research and see how it turned out. In hindsight, I can't believe I fell for it.

The mention that "maybe it would be different if their Radiants were still alive" tipped me off for Syl, though, I never thought she was gone permanently.



I definitely really enjoyed how the characters in this book really did seem to be trying to do the most sensible thing. They didn't find implausible reasons to avoid talking to each other, and they didn't fumble and make things worse by failing to articulate the important parts of their story when they did speak.

Compare Kaladin telling Dalinar of Amaram's history of betrayal, which he does rationally and sensibly despite how emotional it was for him, to Kvothe's conversation with the Maer after he returns from the wilderness in Wise Man's Fear. Both had time to think about what they were going to say, one succeeds in getting the message across without making things worse for himself (Kaladin) and the other... fluffs it for no obvious reason.

Shallan did hold back somewhat when she arrived at the shattered plains, but it was a rational thing to do as she didn't have much credibility there to begin with and demonstrating her powers would have impacted her ability to investigate the secret societies. As soon as she had built up her credibility, and had some evidence that things were moving forward, she started opening up. Kaladin did hold back for awhile as well, but for very understandable reasons and when push came to shove he did the right thing.

I am very happy with how much communication is happening. I was pleasantly surprised that the end of the second book out of ten saw all our main characters revealing their secrets and teaming up. I was prepared for several books of deceit, misinformation, and paranoia keeping them apart. And it did for most of this book, but it all made sense and was resolved nicely, and now it looks like the plot will be focused on what's actually happening instead of contriving to keep the characters apart!

On a side note, does anyone know how old Kaladin is? I think he mentions he's twenty, but the years on Roshar are 500 days, so would that make him older in our terms? Because I've always pictured him being 25-30 and I'm not really sure why. I've been browsing the Coppermind wiki but I haven't found anything definite yet.

[Ibrinar]

Nah, I thought she was a goner. In hindsight, I should never have believed that she was really dead until we saw the body and the funeral, but it was a shipwreck! It seemed like a legitimate reason for the body to disappear! And having a major character death so suddenly isn't really out of character for Sanderson, so I just figured that Jasnah had served her part in getting Shallan involved with the whole Voidbringers thing and I was just sad that Jasnah wouldn't get to finish her research and see how it turned out. In hindsight, I can't believe I fell for it.

The mention that "maybe it would be different if their Radiants were still alive" tipped me off for Syl, though, I never thought she was gone permanently.

I didn't mean the body disappearing after the wreck, that is to be expected. When Shallan went back to Jasnah's room her body had disappeared. Mentioned in a single line without extra speculation what might have happened to it. Or any indication before that the attackers went back to the room to remove it. Hmm I wish I hadn't lent the book to someone and could reread the passage. When I got doubts later I thought "Maybe the attackers dragged the body off. it would be weird to only mention it in a throwaway line, why let the body disappear if you don't intend to explaine why it disappeared - conservation of detail etc."
But I'm not sure if they had the chance to do that without Shallan noticing.

Edit: I was wrong, there was more than one line, it mentioned the possibility of them dragging her away. Though that would have happened while they tried to break into Shallans room.

[Seerow]

On a side note, does anyone know how old Kaladin is? I think he mentions he's twenty, but the years on Roshar are 500 days, so would that make him older in our terms? Because I've always pictured him being 25-30 and I'm not really sure why. I've been browsing the Coppermind wiki but I haven't found anything definite yet.


365 to 500 is about a 37% difference (give or take an hour). So 20 years on Roshar is equivalent to 27 years on earth.


Not sure if that actually means anything or not though. In general the ages seem to match up pretty well to what we're used to, it could be that the days are shorter so the overall time is identical. It could also be that Rosharians age at a different rate, not out of any real biological need but to keep their ages on par with what we expect.

People frequently comment in universe on how young Kaladin is. I don't think he'd be getting those kinds of comments if he was actually approaching the age we'd consider 30.

[Sanguine]

On a side note, does anyone know how old Kaladin is? I think he mentions he's twenty, but the years on Roshar are 500 days, so would that make him older in our terms? Because I've always pictured him being 25-30 and I'm not really sure why. I've been browsing the Coppermind wiki but I haven't found anything definite yet.

Where was it said that a year on Roshar was 500 days? I don't remember that.

Anyway let's think about this for a second. Sadeas is 50, if Roshar humans age at the same rate as earth humans that would make him nearly 70 in our terms. Now I don't know about you but Sadeas never struck me as being 70. 50 yes, but not 70. So now thinking about it like this I would say the obvious conclusion is that the people of Roshar age more slowly so that it all evens out biologically.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Seerow]

Where was it said that a year on Roshar was 500 days? I don't remember that.

I don't know where it's said specifically, but we do know their calendar. Every year is 10 months that are 10 weeks long with 5 day weeks.

[Sanguine]

I don't know where it's said specifically, but we do know their calendar. Every year is 10 months that are 10 weeks long with 5 day weeks.

I do actually remember that now that you mention, can't believe that never clicked.

[Shale]

I actually glossed over Jasnah's body vanishing completely, but I still kicked myself for not seeing her return coming just because she's a frickin' Radiant. Shallan even points out specifically that she could have survived worse injuries than a knife to the chest (to wit, being run through with a polearm and/or falling off a cliff) now that she has Stormlight healing powers. And Jasnah's been training longer than her, so...

[huttj509]

I actually glossed over Jasnah's body vanishing completely, but I still kicked myself for not seeing her return coming just because she's a frickin' Radiant. Shallan even points out specifically that she could have survived worse injuries than a knife to the chest (to wit, being run through with a polearm and/or falling off a cliff) now that she has Stormlight healing powers. And Jasnah's been training longer than her, so...

I do think that for the story it had to happen, as it allowed Shallan to have her arc without being in Jasnah's shadow.

[Lord of the Helms]

Received the book a bit later than I wanted. Devoured it last week. Really, really enjoyed it.


Ilthanor you should just post the new reactions in a new post instead of editing the old post :x




Yeah, I trust Sanderson a lot, and am sure when we get to that point it will all work... but man. Higher scale of power is one thing (I would have no problem with Hoid being equivalent to or stronger than Sazed without the restrictions, but I don't think he's actually that powerful), it's the wide variety of things he's picking up. Can you imagine trying to keep track of what this character is capable of at any given time with all of the various different powers and abilities he's picking up? By the time we get to the Dragon Steel series (or whatever it was called), Hoid will be like a epic level D&D Wizard. Too many different abilities.




Well, to be fair, he apparently sees Odium and another Shardholder whose name I forgot as his main enemies, so even if he does acquire impressive powers by the standards of normal people on the worlds he visits, he's nowhere near Sueish compared to what he's up against.

Three more interesting things I noticed about Hoid in this book:

- He mentions he doesn't think Jasnah's Shardblade would be a threat to him. So either he's too powerful to be hurt by it, or there's a specific aspect about him that means Shardweapons wouldn't work on him.
- He also at one point mentions that if a certain someone (i.e. Odium) found him, he would end up shattered into a lot of pieces. So apparently Odium can shatter non-Shardholders, too.
- He says that there is one woman of his age around. So Cultivation, unlike Honor, was not killed and shattered by Odium, it seems.

[The New Bruceski]

Just to be a bit clearer on the Cosmere's use in stories so far, there's been a few in-book hints in epigrams saying "there's more to this than just our world" and such, but Way of Kings is the first book where people really started showing up with screen time and Words of Radiance is the first one where the whole Cosmere stuff seems to have transitioned from being a winking reference to full-out plot elements.

As far as the book itself, I loved it. There are a couple of things I hope happen early in the next book though:

Renarin as a viewpoint character. Now that we've had the reveal I want to see inside his head.

A meeting of the Radiants where they say "okay, X organization is doing Y, and these people are the members I know about." Sadly this will have to wait since Kal's hurrying back home to have a lot of "coming home as a lighteyes Radiant and need to avoid killing the guy I detest while I try to save everyone" angst. I mainly don't want to see Shallan doing a lot of "the Ghostbloods are using me but I'm scared to tell anyone about it". If they know she's a Radiant, she may as well tell the Radiants she's a Ghostblood. Let the intel go both ways.

[MammonAzrael]

I finished the book the other night, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The pacing was generally excellent, despite some sections that could have been trimmed down, though I personally didn't mind.

Sanderson's use of language is always interesting to me. When he was finished WoT, some of his word choices felt very dissonant with the setting (does the world of Randland have a name?), while in the Cosmere...it doesn't seem out of place, but it always throws me a bit when the characters are saying "Yay!" or "Awesome!" I think Shallan did it the most. I'm still on the fence whether I like it or not.

While I haven't dug through Q&As, I'm aware of Sanderson's Cosmere, and I really really liked how much it has started to come into focus.

[Kitten Champion]

When he was finished WoT, some of his word choices felt very dissonant with the setting (does the world of Randland have a name?),

Yeah, it's Earth.

[IthilanorStPete]

I finished the book the other night, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The pacing was generally excellent, despite some sections that could have been trimmed down, though I personally didn't mind.

Sanderson's use of language is always interesting to me. When he was finished WoT, some of his word choices felt very dissonant with the setting (does the world of Randland have a name?), while in the Cosmere...it doesn't seem out of place, but it always throws me a bit when the characters are saying "Yay!" or "Awesome!" I think Shallan did it the most. I'm still on the fence whether I like it or not.

While I haven't dug through Q&As, I'm aware of Sanderson's Cosmere, and I really really liked how much it has started to come into focus.

With regards to his language, I agree that it works better in Sanderson's own books then it did in Wheel of Time. WoT had a more classical-fantasy feel, plus Robert Jordan generally avoided a modern language style, so Sanderson's word choice clashed with the existing books. The Cosmere books tend towards a more modern style and have a more coherent aesthetic, so it doesn't stick out too much to me.

[MammonAzrael]

Yeah, it's Earth.

Oh, right. Hence never naming the world, it would breed confusion.

OT, any thoughts on how Nightblood will act compared to spren? What powers of surges do you think Szeth will now have access to? Presumably not Windrunner ones again.

[Kd7sov]

OT, any thoughts on how Nightblood will act compared to spren? What powers of surges do you think Szeth will now have access to? Presumably not Windrunner ones again.

Well, Nin (who is apparently also called Nale, for a bit of a shock) said he was inducting Szeth into the Skybreakers. Skybreaker Surges are Gravitation and Division, and I'm moderately sure the Blue Radiant from Dalinar's first vision that we see in WoK was a Skybreaker. Gravitation should let him do Basic Lashings like he's used to, and possibly Reverse Lashings though that strikes me as a combinatory ability; Division (the Surge of Destruction and Decay) is a bit harder to pin down, but it occurs to me that he might be able to do a variant-Lashing intended to smash things destructively into each other. Destruction may also work in opposition to Progression, which we saw from the Amber Radiant in Dalinar's vision and from Lift, to cause injury directly.

(I'm aware the wiki names the Amber Radiant as a Stoneward, but I see no evidence in the text that she's anything but a Truthwatcher.)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On a side note, does anyone know how old Kaladin is? I think he mentions he's twenty, but the years on Roshar are 500 days, so would that make him older in our terms? Because I've always pictured him being 25-30 and I'm not really sure why. I've been browsing the Coppermind wiki but I haven't found anything definite yet.
You're not the only one who thought of him that way! I thought the exact same thing. It all has to do with the context he's shown in, I think. When we see Kaladin, it's in the context of an incredibly adult storyline. He feels aged because he's leading men much older than he is, into situations of sudden death, and has lots of death in his wake. I mean, a lot has happened in his life. And he has a brooding internal monologue. So he feels like a grizzled war veteran.

Also, he has Tien, who is younger than him. So he feels old by contrast.

Without a visual cue (because the cover of WoR is the first time we see art of Kaladin), and without reminders of how young he is, he feels older. His sarcastic attitude helped pull things together here, though. Especially the snappy chemistry with Shallan.

But yeah. I LOVED THE BOOK. If Book 3 is as good (or better), I will have all faith that Sanderson can nail this series.

[Pronounceable]

This was a great book. Sanderson is getting so much better at writing. He has some way to go with dialogue but prose is immensely improved compared to his older stuff. Didn't manage to top Emperor's Soul as his best work though (probably due to collosal size difference).
...
Shallan tends to get the greatest chapters for some reason. Her arc, characterization, role, etc aren't objectively better than other mains' but she's gotten objectively best chapters in both books: symbolhead fever in WoK and the much anticipated murder scene in WoR. OBJECTIVELY. And she got hell of a growth arc (both past and present).

Kaladin is treading mostly the same water again but he appears to suffer some genuine depressive disorder thing, so it's acceptable. He'd be dreadfully boring and dull without Syl.

Sanderson was trying too hard on setting up the triangle though. Those first two shouting matches were very blatant. Luckily the chasm sequence fixed that. I can see this triangle going either way, both pairings are looking plausible. The major downside to this state of affairs in my opinion is that internet will be full of insane shippers warring until next book.

Dalinar seems to have been pushed back in favor of Adolin. All the Adolin stuff is nice though, he did one of the most useful things anybody has done in the end and the date with Shallan was the best date. Dalinar still gets to have the last/biggest badassery of the book though.
...
This book also contains two of the dumbest things ever:
Szeth broke through badass meter and became a full on Looney Toon and Adolin's last duel spiraled into the pro wrestlingest thing ever seen in fantasy literature. Both of which are incredibly awesome due to how utterly straight they were played. Especially that "duel" still cracks me up every time I remember it.
You're going down Sadeas!
Amaram! I'm calling you out!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Oh, and also...
Szeth's new Blade, whatever it is? This is gonna be fun.

[Helanna]

Sanderson was trying too hard on setting up the triangle though. Those first two shouting matches were very blatant. Luckily the chasm sequence fixed that. I can see this triangle going either way, both pairings are looking plausible. The major downside to this state of affairs in my opinion is that internet will be full of insane shippers warring until next book.

Dalinar seems to have been pushed back in favor of Adolin. All the Adolin stuff is nice though, he did one of the most useful things anybody has done in the end and the date with Shallan was the best date. Dalinar still gets to have the last/biggest badassery of the book though.


I'm really relying on Sanderson here not to go for the love triangle or cliched "main characters hate each other at first sight and then end up together" route. Partially because I'm bored of that plot, partially because I just don't really like Kaladin and Shallan together.

I'm really looking forward to how Adolin develops though. As a reader I practically cheered when he murdered Sadeas, but that's probably going to have harsh repercussions, both in his life and on his character. I just feel like this is going to go somewhere really interesting.


Oh, and also...
Szeth's new Blade, whatever it is? This is gonna be fun.

I am looking forward to this so much.

[Douglas]

Oh, and also...
Szeth's new Blade, whatever it is? This is gonna be fun.
If you've read Warbreaker, its first line should sound very familiar.

[Dhavaer]

Well, Nin (who is apparently also called Nale, for a bit of a shock) said he was inducting Szeth into the Skybreakers. Skybreaker Surges are Gravitation and Division, and I'm moderately sure the Blue Radiant from Dalinar's first vision that we see in WoK was a Skybreaker. Gravitation should let him do Basic Lashings like he's used to, and possibly Reverse Lashings though that strikes me as a combinatory ability; Division (the Surge of Destruction and Decay) is a bit harder to pin down, but it occurs to me that he might be able to do a variant-Lashing intended to smash things destructively into each other. Destruction may also work in opposition to Progression, which we saw from the Amber Radiant in Dalinar's vision and from Lift, to cause injury directly.

(I'm aware the wiki names the Amber Radiant as a Stoneward, but I see no evidence in the text that she's anything but a Truthwatcher.)

The prologue to WoK describes the rocks smoking as a result of good work by the Dustbringers, the other order with Division. Presumably they're the Radiants' blasters.


Like you, it took me a several hundred pages to really begin to believe Jasnah was gone. I was disappointed as I really liked her from the first book. It was only really by the time Shallan had gotten to the shattered plains and was starting out building her relationship with Adolin I finally allowed myself to believe that she wasn't going to swoop back in and tie some plot threads together.

I had the opposite of this. At first I thought she was gone, and as I read further I got more and more certain she was alive. By the time Shallan described to Dalinar how ridiculously durable surgebinders are, my only uncertainty was whether she'd show up in the climax or in an epilogue. Still kind of disappointed it was the later.

[Thomas Cardew]

Sanderson was trying too hard on setting up the triangle though. Those first two shouting matches were very blatant. Luckily the chasm sequence fixed that. I can see this triangle going either way, both pairings are looking plausible. The major downside to this state of affairs in my opinion is that internet will be full of insane shippers warring until next book.


Now this could just be completely wrong but I don't really think Sanderson is trying to set up a love triangle here. I think the point of those scenes and the repeated lines like , "It seemed some part of him was determined to dislike her", is to show that they don't get along because their spren don't get along. Syl is an Honorspren while Pattern's a Cryptic (Liespren); we got a single line from Jasnah (or her book can't remember) that Honorspren and Cryptics DON'T get along.

It's less that Sanderson is heavyhandedly creating a love triangle and more that he's trying to be too clever about setting up a future plot point and it's creating a bad love triangle.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's also a bit of a natural reaction. Glum Kaladin would've been uninteresting to watch, so sarcastic Kaladin it is. Sarcastic Kaladin + all-time snarker Shallan = all the firestorm dialogue! (Also consider that they're roughly the same age.)

[Seerow]

It's also a bit of a natural reaction. Glum Kaladin would've been uninteresting to watch, so sarcastic Kaladin it is. Sarcastic Kaladin + all-time snarker Shallan = all the firestorm dialogue! (Also consider that they're roughly the same age.)

I was under the impression Shallan was still like 16, making Kaladin 4 years her senior. Is she older than I thought?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hmmm. I don't actually know! They definitely fall within that "young adult" age range, though. She's certainly impertinent enough to mouth off to someone that much older than her.

EDIT: found this (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5641-rosharan-calendar-and-character-ages/#entry89705). You're roughly correct, give or take a few months depending on when Kaladin's birthday is.