Starting Over: Repopulating the Planes.

[rmnimoc]

Bad things happened. Pretty much everything is dead. The only living things to survive were a handful of groups effectively removed from time itself entirely.

Information:
1. There are 12 groups, five of them lead by Players.
2. It has been an arbitrarily long period of time, let's say a hundred thousand.
3. The event ended up creating permanent portals between several planes (material and the outer planes minus the outlands) and removed others from existence (The outlands, the astral, the far planes, pretty much every other plane) entirely.
4. No one alive is currently over level 6 (arbitrarily selected low level, subject to change).
5. Everywhere was dead-magic'd until the groups popped back into existence, and magic will only function perfectly in a small area focused on the popping point and slowly spreading outwards (at an as of yet undetermined rate). The farther from that area, the higher the chances of something going wrong. This means that in the beginning there will only be creatures of the animal type, though this may change depending on circumstances. This also means that most magical planar traits are removed (this means the Abyss doesn't pop infinite demons into existence, Hades doesn't drain hope and Elysium doesn't do it's version of that either), though some (the infinite natures of the planes, the unnatural weather) remain.
6. Resources are as they were before, making some planes more valuable/dangerous than others.
7. Divine casters receive spells as though they were worshiping concepts and not deities.
8. The majority of conflict will likely come from community to community relations.
9. Psionics is non-existent in this campaign.

This is a new campaign I'm getting ready to DM, I was hoping you guys could help me figure out any implications of this I'm missing before my players do. They asked for this campaign, so I'm good on that front. I figure this will gut conjuration, divination, and any prestige that relies on outsiders. This will also likely shift the balance far closer to skill-type classes and non-magic classes. Anything else I'm missing, ideas on potential issues the groups might have, things I can potentially improve, etc?

Thanks for the help.

[MadGreenSon]

No advice just at the moment. But I do have to pipe up to compliment your setting. A lot of potential there.

It could also get so bleak as to make Dark Sun look like Rock Candy Mountain. But I think that's just part of the appeal.:smallbiggrin:

I hope it goes well!

[rmnimoc]

No advice just at the moment. But I do have to pipe up to compliment your setting. A lot of potential there.

It could also get so bleak as to make Dark Sun look like Rock Candy Mountain. But I think that's just part of the appeal.:smallbiggrin:

I hope it goes well!

Yeah, a year ago I ran a campaign between two epic parties over control of the universe, with a third party of newer players trying to run damage control. In the end one of the epic two parties just decided that if they didn't get the universe no one would.

Party 3 has been bugging me for a while for a rebuilding campaign set in the aftermath, figured I'd start writing everything up now, probably start it in a May or so.

With any luck this will turn out well.

[Togo]

Money will be largely irrelevant, compared to resources. It should be fairly straightforward to get to somewhere like Mechanus or Archeron to extract pure metals, and even on the Prime finding old mines would be fairly straightforward. As such, gold is going to be easy to get. It also isn't going to worth much without trade, and there's no one to trade with.

so you may want to rethink the economy a little, and make sure material component costs get retooled. How much does the physical body of a golem actually cost, for example?

[Sith_Happens]

To exactly what extent have the various outsiders been affected/wiped out?

[123456789blaaa]

I'd suggest you ask our local planar expert (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317316)to come and take a look at this thread.

[Jallorn]

Some questions that might be worth answering:

You've said no one is over level 6, but how many are even that high?
For that matter, how many people in each group?
Are they all in the same location?
Are they homogenous groups, or is each group a random assortment of races and cultures?

Some observations:
Depending on the speed of magic spread, the landing sites are going to be very safe, serving as centers for what spellcasters there are. Basically, if the spread of the magic zones are slow enough that it takes a generation before it's big enough to have two villages in it, they'll stay centered, probably making the landing sites into capitals of sorts.

There are a sufficient number of animals that are a significant threat to the lower levels of humanoids, so expansion would be slow, depending on the population. Higher level non-magical characters are going to all end up on the borders of their group's civilization, since the magical characters will stay centered, and the borders will need constant protection.

[Sith_Happens]

For that matter, how many people in each group?
Are they all in the same location?
Are they homogenous groups, or is each group a random assortment of races and cultures?

And what's the gender ratio? The question is about "repopulating" the planes.:smallwink:

[rmnimoc]

Money will be largely irrelevant, compared to resources. It should be fairly straightforward to get to somewhere like Mechanus or Archeron to extract pure metals, and even on the Prime finding old mines would be fairly straightforward. As such, gold is going to be easy to get. It also isn't going to worth much without trade, and there's no one to trade with.

so you may want to rethink the economy a little, and make sure material component costs get retooled. How much does the physical body of a golem actually cost, for example?

Yeah, wealth as it is won't really exist, and material components for most spells quite a bit more rare. It might take a bit of work to get it to a good balanced level for crafting, components, and such.

--


To exactly what extent have the various outsiders been affected/wiped out?

The only outsider still alive is a young Erinyes the party adopted.

--


I'd suggest you ask our local planar expert (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317316)to come and take a look at this thread.

I'll check his stuff out, maybe ask him.

--


Some questions that might be worth answering:

1. You've said no one is over level 6, but how many are even that high?
2. For that matter, how many people in each group?
3. Are they all in the same location?
4. Are they homogenous groups, or is each group a random assortment of races and cultures?

Some observations:
Depending on the speed of magic spread, the landing sites are going to be very safe, serving as centers for what spellcasters there are. Basically, if the spread of the magic zones are slow enough that it takes a generation before it's big enough to have two villages in it, they'll stay centered, probably making the landing sites into capitals of sorts.

There are a sufficient number of animals that are a significant threat to the lower levels of humanoids, so expansion would be slow, depending on the population. Higher level non-magical characters are going to all end up on the borders of their group's civilization, since the magical characters will stay centered, and the borders will need constant protection.

There are a total of 366 survivors. Of them, 6 are level 6, 22 level 5, 40 level 4s, 80 level 3s, 112 level 2s, and 100 level 1s. Plus the 5 players at level 5 each, and their 2HD sidekick.

Each group is about thirty people each, with the leveled characters being fairly evenly distributed.

Each of the player's groups are fairly close (well, rather far by conventional distances, but the permanent portals put them all within 70 miles max distance between any 2), the non-player groups are scattered however. Each group will have a rough outline of where every group should be popping in at.

Each group is mostly made up of PHB races, with the odd exception here and there, and each group also has a majority race. For 6 groups that is human, two elf, an orc, a dwarf, a gnome, and one that's an even mix of them. The groups are an even mix of several cultures, however each of the groups is mostly a single culture.

I haven't quite decided on the magic spreading speed yet.

Yeah, the animals will probably keep the cities from expanding too quickly, depending on their location.

--


And what's the gender ratio? The question is about "repopulating" the planes.:smallwink:

About 60-40 m-f.

[Jallorn]

There are a total of 366 survivors. Of them, 6 are level 6, 22 level 5, 40 level 4s, 80 level 3s, 112 level 2s, and 100 level 1s. Plus the 5 players at level 5 each, and their 2HD sidekick.

Hmmm, well, for a human population, iirc, you need at least 2000 breeding pairs in order to maintain genetic diversity. There are a number of ways around this available to you:

More races (assuming they can all breed with one another) means far more genetic diversity. They may end up converging into one race, but it could have the diversity to remain competitive. The flipside though is that the merging of several races at once could lead to a higher amount of gentic defects.

Magic. Always a viable solution in fantasy worlds. Combine with the above if you want to keep from pushing too far with magic.

Ignore it. The rule is verisimilitude, not realism.

[Clistenes]

Hmmm, well, for a human population, iirc, you need at least 2000 breeding pairs in order to maintain genetic diversity. There are a number of ways around this available to you:

More races (assuming they can all breed with one another) means far more genetic diversity. They may end up converging into one race, but it could have the diversity to remain competitive. The flipside though is that the merging of several races at once could lead to a higher amount of gentic defects.

Magic. Always a viable solution in fantasy worlds. Combine with the above if you want to keep from pushing too far with magic.

Ignore it. The rule is verisimilitude, not realism.

Once they are high level enough they can create clones, or cast Incarnate on constructs, or cast Awaken and Reincarnation on animals (if your DM allows the spell to turn Animals/Magical Beasts into Humanoids instead of using a custom table of Animals/Magical Beasts).

[Magikeeper]

1. What plane(s) do the party members start on? Or do they get to choose?

2. Are any of the portals in the working-magic zones? If not, I presume they are an exception to the no-magic rules.

3. What is the tech level? Does alchemical gear, the crappy DMG early guns, etc. exist? Or even stuff like air balloons?

4. What are the other groups? More importantly - did any of the really fast breeding races survive? Kobolds and the like.

5. Industry, food production, medicine, etc is much easier to handle within the magic zones. The initial size and growth rate determines how quickly issues like "We can heal any disease, but can we get all the plague victims into the magic zone quickly enough?" pop up.

6. Do constructs function in the magic-less zones? If they do, whoever manages to build a construct army first might have a sizable advantage. Most animals won't bother them in the first place, and they can handle hauling large quantities of materials from place to place.

[rmnimoc]

1. What plane(s) do the party members start on? Or do they get to choose?

2. Are any of the portals in the working-magic zones? If not, I presume they are an exception to the no-magic rules.

3. What is the tech level? Does alchemical gear, the crappy DMG early guns, etc. exist? Or even stuff like air balloons?

4. What are the other groups? More importantly - did any of the really fast breeding races survive? Kobolds and the like.

5. Industry, food production, medicine, etc is much easier to handle within the magic zones. The initial size and growth rate determines how quickly issues like "We can heal any disease, but can we get all the plague victims into the magic zone quickly enough?" pop up.

6. Do constructs function in the magic-less zones? If they do, whoever manages to build a construct army first might have a sizable advantage. Most animals won't bother them in the first place, and they can handle hauling large quantities of materials from place to place.

1. They start on the planes that they were in when they were torn out of reality from. (Elysium, Arcadia, Aborea, Ysgard, and the Material plane.)

2. The portals aren't magic so much as places where the boundries between planes have been damaged enough to allow travel through them.

3. Right now the tech is what they are carrying on their person/capable of creating/inventing with skill checks.

4. The races with surviving members are:
Human
Elf
Dwarf
Halfling
Eyrines
Orcs
Gnomes
None of the rabbit-breeding races survived.

6. Constructs will kinda work, I'm probably going to work up some sort of suffocation-like rules for magic dependant things in the magic-less areas. A magic item can retain its magic for 2*caster level hours in a magicless zone, after which it must pass a caster level check against a DC that increases by one for every hour with no magic. Maybe. I'm not sure yet.

I'll probably also come up with some sort of a way to spead the magic around faster than it does by default.

[Magikeeper]

1. If you do have a way to speed it up, I suggest it be very obvious, require some sort of large device that can be attacked, and still rather slow. That way people can have wars over someone trying to 'burrow' through the non-magic lands to a key location.

Speaking of key locations, people might try to take control of key portals. How they do this depends heavily on how far away the portals are from the magic zones.

2. Was anything left behind by the old world? Like, non-magical structures and the like. The massive length of time would break down most things, but certain materials would be virtually unchanged. I think objects made out of gold would be fine, so traveling to former city locations and trying to find buried stockpiles of it is a possibility.

3. Where are the portals to the other planes? 10 miles away? 100 miles away? What portals are where? Can you get to any plane from any other plane?

4. Does the lack of an astral/shadow/etc plane mean that most forms of extremely fast travel (Teleport et al.) don't work, not even in the magic zones?

[rmnimoc]

1. If you do have a way to speed it up, I suggest it be very obvious, require some sort of large device that can be attacked, and still rather slow. That way people can have wars over someone trying to 'burrow' through the non-magic lands to a key location.

Speaking of key locations, people might try to take control of key portals. How they do this depends heavily on how far away the portals are from the magic zones.

2. Was anything left behind by the old world? Like, non-magical structures and the like. The massive length of time would break down most things, but certain materials would be virtually unchanged. I think objects made out of gold would be fine, so traveling to former city locations and trying to find buried stockpiles of it is a possibility.

3. Where are the portals to the other planes? 10 miles away? 100 miles away? What portals are where? Can you get to any plane from any other plane?

4. Does the lack of an astral/shadow/etc plane mean that most forms of extremely fast travel (Teleport et al.) don't work, not even in the magic zones?

1. I find this idea interesting.

2. I was running off the idea that everything is toasted. To include non-magical architectural wonders and what-not, but I could see that turning out interestingly. I'll call this TBD for now.

3. They will be within a one days walk (~30 miles) of their respective portal when they start. All of the portals lead to ground zero, so that will function as a hub.

4. Yes. Unless someone manages to recreate them, or research all new spells for teleportation, most of them won't work.

[Rakaydos]

How does Spell Research work without libraries?

[unseenmage]

I'd be interested in seeing an Elder Evils style workup of an entity or entities capable of interplanar destruction on this kind of scale.

[Inevitability]

Why did the Erinyes survive?

[rmnimoc]

How does Spell Research work without libraries?

The same way scientific research worked without libraries. Just start throwing random junk together till it explodes, then make your own library. :P


I'd be interested in seeing an Elder Evils style workup of an entity or entities capable of interplanar destruction on this kind of scale.

This was just another final "Well if we can't beat you fighting fair, we'll kill everything else. Including magic, gravity, physics, and love." by an epic party of players. Except it worked. They figured out a way to deal infinite damage to everything at once*. Even things that weren't even physical objects were safe. After realizing that nothing could actually survive it once they started it, the other epic party sacrificed themselves to save the low level party and as many people as they could.


Why did the Erinyes survive?

Note that that isn't all the Erinyes, just the one that the party adopted. As to why they did that.....I'm not really sure. They ended up doing a surprise raid on hell while everything was distracted, and decided that since I'd idly mentioned a mini-Erinyes as sort of a little fluff thing since they are the only devils that really reproduce, they wanted her. As, I don't know, a souvenir? They just sort of grabbed her on the way out.

It wasn't even a real plan at all. Just a "Hey, what's that mark on the grid?" "Oh, that's the child whose mother you just brutally murdered and joked about murdering in front of her. You monsters." "Okay, 27." "Wait, 27 what?" "I walk over to her and pick her up." "Wait, you're kidnapping a devil?" "No, adopting. Besides, we'll diplomacize her later, we are on a schedule. Okay gang, we've got the mcguffin and a new mascot. Our work here is done, now let's get to the rendezvous point to get teleported out of here." "You are legitimately taking her? Seriously? You are weighted down by all this stuff, you can't run while carrying her." "Okay then, I throw away a bunch of the cool magic loot I just got. Wait, no, that won't be enough. Let's just hide the mcguffin and come back for it later." "Why are you doing this? Really?" "You mentioned her, so she is obviously important. And also ours now." "Are you all seriously willing to waste all that hard work and effort just so you can suffer from ADH-oooh shiny at the last second?" *small group discussion* "Yes. She will be our new mascot, I mean she's pretty much just a mini-angel." "You know what, fine whatever. Just pick a place to hide the item."

The funny part is this whole "Universe spasms, nearly everyone dies" thing was all because of an accidental mark on a piece of gridpaper. And that is why the Erinyes is alive.


*It was slightly more complicated than that, but that was pretty much the gist of it.

[unseenmage]

The same way scientific research worked without libraries. Just start throwing random junk together till it explodes, then make your own library. :P

...

I approve of this message. :smallsmile:

[Azoth]

I could see this being a great start to the introduction of Binders and Meldshapers. Even races like Azurin coming into being. You did just kind of flood the multiverse with the spiritual essense of countless creatures. Maybe have human's start birthing Azurins and such.

Instead of learning traditional magic, people instead start learning how to bind and shape the spirits of the cosmos to their will.

[Gavinfoxx]

You know by RAW, constructs work fine in antimagic fields and null magic zones, right?

I would rethink them working badly, as constructs will be a main way to repopulate the planes...

[Magikeeper]

1. Will the magic zones extend through the portals? If yes, will it happen at start, after awhile like any other location, or only if the PCs force the zone to extend through the portals by using their devices?

2. What is the likelyhood of all 5 PC groups banding together immediately?

3. What is the likelyhood of one or more PC groups trying to band together with the NPC groups? If all or most of them then proceed to try to get the NPC groups on board, how many of the npc groups will be okay with creating a grand council or something?

4. What of the 7 NPC groups? Will any of them try to band together?

5. What if a large alliance tries to take over the hub? Either the PCs or the NPCs or both.

6. What if the players really hit a home-run diplomatically and they manage to get all 12 groups to form a peaceful nation?

[Jallorn]

Once they are high level enough they can create clones, or cast Incarnate on constructs, or cast Awaken and Reincarnation on animals (if your DM allows the spell to turn Animals/Magical Beasts into Humanoids instead of using a custom table of Animals/Magical Beasts).

Neither Clone nor Awakened Constructs solve genetic diversity, though Clone does mean they don't have to fall back on polygamy if they don't want to. The reincarnation trick (or heck, Polymorph Any Object) work though.

[rmnimoc]

You know by RAW, constructs work fine in antimagic fields and null magic zones, right?

I would rethink them working badly, as constructs would be a main way to repopulate the planes...
ftfy

I'm aware of how it works by raw. This isn't actually the planar trait dead magic, and therefore doesn't work like an antimagic field. I just said "dead magic'd" in a "hey, magic is dead" sense not a "this planar trait which anyone who cares in the slightest can completely ignore" sense. I'll clarify. It is more of a homebrew impeded trait. It isn't "mortal magic" that gods, artifacts, walls of force, and prismatic stuff can just ignore. If something that requires magic to move no longer has the magic to move, it can no longer move. Magic isn't supressed, but the same rules I spelled out for constructs apply to spells or items brought there If someone manages to make a construct where even if the magic is sucked out of them, it still works, then it'll still work. I'll determine it on a case by case basis.


1. Will the magic zones extend through the portals? If yes, will it happen at start, after awhile like any other location, or only if the PCs force the zone to extend through the portals by using their devices?

2. What is the likelyhood of all 5 PC groups banding together immediately?

3. What is the likelyhood of one or more PC groups trying to band together with the NPC groups? If all or most of them then proceed to try to get the NPC groups on board, how many of the npc groups will be okay with creating a grand council or something?

4. What of the 7 NPC groups? Will any of them try to band together?

5. What if a large alliance tries to take over the hub? Either the PCs or the NPCs or both.

6. What if the players really hit a home-run diplomatically and they manage to get all 12 groups to form a peaceful nation?

1. The magic zones will expand through the portals. I'm almost done working out how that expansion will work, and I'll post it when I finish.

2. Fairly high, for a certain degree of banding together. Having played with them before it will probably end up with a loose alliance that everyone reads the way that benefits them the most at the time. Think less "Yay, we're the greatest friends evar and we'll always sacrifice stuff to help each other" and more "We've worked together before, so I'll probably give you the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean I won't stab you in the back the instant it is convenient".

3. Almost guaranteed. Most of them have differing goals and morals, so I imagine they will ally themselves with different people. At least one of the groups were mostly worshippers of Zarus (which might be more common now since the saving party was all humans and the "destroy everything" party didn't have any), who hold two of the party as saints. As to the Grand Council thing, it might work for a little while, but I can't see it lasting without some epic diplomacy.

4. There will likely be a lot of loose alliances, but how that all plans out depends on the players.

5. I'm pretty sure any singular group grabbing the hub would upset everyone not in the group. What they would/could do about it is TBD.

6. Then I'll likely double check the numbers, blink quizzically for a bit, clap, then figure out a way to dissolve it. Probably either With dinosaurs or and backstabbing. Possibly with both lasers.

[Clistenes]

Neither Clone nor Awakened Constructs solve genetic diversity, though Clone does mean they don't have to fall back on polygamy if they don't want to. The reincarnation trick (or heck, Polymorph Any Object) work though.

Incarnate Construct turns constructs into flesh-and-blood humanoids or giants.

[Jallorn]

Incarnate Construct turns constructs into flesh-and-blood humanoids or giants.

Yeah, okay, that's a fair reading. I was thinking it gave the living construct subtype. It requires the heart of a dead humanoid though, so that's a bit of a problem. Not an incredible one, people will still be dying, after all, but still.

On second thought, Eschew Materials. A heart don't have no GP value.

[rmnimoc]

Yeah, okay, that's a fair reading. I was thinking it gave the living construct subtype. It requires the heart of a dead humanoid though, so that's a bit of a problem. Not an incredible one, people will still be dying, after all, but still.

On second thought, Eschew Materials. A heart don't have no GP value.

Pretty sure that if you can cast "Incarnate Construct" you can also revive the dead.

[Jallorn]

Pretty sure that if you can cast "Incarnate Construct" you can also revive the dead.

Alright, that's pretty cheesy. Does require a lot of Diamonds though.

[Erik Vale]

You know by RAW, constructs work fine in antimagic fields and null magic zones, right?

I would rethink them working badly, as constructs will be a main way to repopulate the planes...

Actually, someone found a reference somewhere that makes them susceptible to dispels/anti-magic etc. I'll try to dig it up.

[unseenmage]

Actually, someone found a reference somewhere that makes them susceptible to dispels/anti-magic etc. I'll try to dig it up.

If Constructs count as Magic Items (as Golems are stated to be in the SRD) then they can be subject to the same effects that turn off Magic Items, potentially.

[Clistenes]

Pretty sure that if you can cast "Incarnate Construct" you can also revive the dead.

I assumed that wasn't an option. If that were an option, this thread should be named "how to resurrect a lot of people at the lowest possible cost". If the players can resurrect people, they should explore the ruins of the old Multiverse in search of scrolls and magical items able to resurrect people, or just craft a Bier of Resurrection, mine some diamonds and bring back people they like.

[TuggyNE]

Actually, someone found a reference somewhere that makes them susceptible to dispels/anti-magic etc. I'll try to dig it up.

It depends on the construct, but the short answer is that constructs that are also magic items have no special invulnerability to dispel magic or disjunction, since those target magic items as such, and not, for example, objects that are magical. This unfortunately includes all golems and all intelligent magic items, including item familiars past a certain point.

This doesn't necessarily make them vulnerable to AMFs, though, since "golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting" are immune to its effect, though of course SLAs and Sus are still suppressed.

[rmnimoc]

I assumed that wasn't an option. If that were an option, this thread should be named "how to resurrect a lot of people at the lowest possible cost". If the players can resurrect people, they should explore the ruins of the old Multiverse in search of scrolls and magical items able to resurrect people, or just craft a Bier of Resurrection, mine some diamonds and bring back people they like.

I meant to revive the person who you just went "Temple of Doom" on. The souls of everyone who died during what I'm now choosing to deem "The Stupidly Large Metaphysical Explosion" are dead.

[Sith_Happens]

Stupidly Large Metaphysical Explosion

I approve of this name, because its acronym is SLME which I read as "salami.":smallbiggrin: