[3.5]Defiant/Ur-Priest

[Thurbane]

So, just wondering...

If I am an ex-Cleric who trades in all of his Cleric levels for levels in Defiant (Planar Handbook p.44), is there anything stopping me from becoming an Ur-Priest after I hit Defiant 10?

Is there conflicting reqs that would stop me entering Ur-Priest? How does the fluff of the two PrCs mesh?

Cheers - T

[gorfnab]

The Ur-Priest skill prereqs are not the easiest to get with just Cleric levels. The fluff mix is just hilarious. You basically consider the gods to be liars and frauds and then you start stealing their power. The 10th level ability of the Defiant is painful, Divine Disavowal (SR 25 versus all divine spells, and you can't lower it voluntarily) will make it extremely difficult to cast an Ur-Priest spell on yourself.

[Tommy2255]

The Ur-Priest skill prereqs are not the easiest to get with just Cleric levels. The fluff mix is just hilarious. You basically consider the gods to be liars and frauds and then you start stealing their power. The 10th level ability of the Defiant is painful, Divine Disavowal (SR 25 versus all divine spells, and you can't lower it voluntarily) will make it extremely difficult to cast an Ur-Priest spell on yourself.

Wouldn't Divine Interference also make you require concentration checks to cast anyway? Although it should be fine up to level 8.

The only problem I can see is that you lose the Defiant's requirement of "no divine casting" by becoming an Ur-Priest, but you also lose the Ur-Priest requirement of "no divine casting" by becoming an Ur-Priest. That way lies madness.

[MadGreenSon]

The fluff mix is just hilarious. You basically consider the gods to be liars and frauds and then you start stealing their power.

Well... Hypocrisy is a thing y'know? The Athar are no less prone to it than anyone else, especially in the pursuit of power. Although considering they think the gods are just really powerful mortals, stealing their power might appeal to the Athar mindset.


The 10th level ability of the Defiant is painful, Divine Disavowal (SR 25 versus all divine spells, and you can't lower it voluntarily) will make it extremely difficult to cast an Ur-Priest spell on yourself.

Then there's this...


Wouldn't Divine Interference also make you require concentration checks to cast anyway? Although it should be fine up to level 8.

And this.

Might be flavorful to have traded in 8 levels of Cleric for Defiant then go Ur-Priest to really stick it to those jumped up mortals that deceived you. Where to from there though? Almost no-one goes all the way with Ur-Priest it seems.

Might be fluff appropriate to have a Defiant/Ur-Priest take all the Ur-Priest levels...

[PersonMan]

Moreso than with a "normal" entry, definitely. Learn to steal spells from those overrated mortals, then learn to steal powers from other mortals (potentially also overrated).

[MadGreenSon]

Moreso than with a "normal" entry, definitely. Learn to steal spells from those overrated mortals, then learn to steal powers from other mortals (potentially also overrated).

Oh yeah. I was big into Planescape for a long time, the theme of Jealousy is strong in both the Athar/Defiant and the Ur-Priest. It really does mesh fluff-wise and should make a decently strong, if bitter, character.

[PersonMan]

Can also work on a sort of 'the deities are unworthy of their power' sort of deal - some of the standard fluff has them doing things that I feel are not really Good, and I can see someone in such a setting feeling the same way, turning against all deities and seeing the good ones as corrupted by their power, seeking to use their power to 'do what they are supposed to be doing'.

[MadGreenSon]

Can also work on a sort of 'the deities are unworthy of their power' sort of deal - some of the standard fluff has them doing things that I feel are not really Good, and I can see someone in such a setting feeling the same way, turning against all deities and seeing the good ones as corrupted by their power, seeking to use their power to 'do what they are supposed to be doing'.

Sure thing! And imposing his will on others as the way things are "supposed to be" will still keep the character comfortably evil, as Ur-Priest are supposed to be.

[Psyren]

The Ur-Priest skill prereqs are not the easiest to get with just Cleric levels. The fluff mix is just hilarious. You basically consider the gods to be liars and frauds and then you start stealing their power. The 10th level ability of the Defiant is painful, Divine Disavowal (SR 25 versus all divine spells, and you can't lower it voluntarily) will make it extremely difficult to cast an Ur-Priest spell on yourself.


Well... Hypocrisy is a thing y'know? The Athar are no less prone to it than anyone else, especially in the pursuit of power. Although considering they think the gods are just really powerful mortals, stealing their power might appeal to the Athar mindset.

It's not hypocritical at all actually. Athar think the gods are charlatans, but they don't deny the existence of divine power itself - that would be pretty silly in a D&D world where priests can clearly do miraculous things. They simply think that the gods are taking the credit for something that doesn't truly belong to them.

A Defiant Ur-Priest therefore would simply be someone who is trying to take divinity back from the gods and show the world that worship and piety are shams - the Occupy Pantheon movement, as it were.

[Rebel7284]

According to d20srd, SR is a non-issue.


Spell Resistance

Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.)

To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another.

Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps.

[Fouredged Sword]

I could see this as a viable build for levels 18+ if you can hit a DC 34 concentration check on a 1.

23 ranks, +7 con mod (high, but good for it's own sake), skill focus... There you go, +33 to concentration, you can cast 9th level spells without fail.

Go cleric 9 / defiant 1 (defiant 10) / ur-priest 10.

[MadGreenSon]

I could see this as a viable build for levels 18+ if you can hit a DC 34 concentration check on a 1.

23 ranks, +7 con mod (high, but good for it's own sake), skill focus... There you go, +33 to concentration, you can cast 9th level spells without fail.

Go cleric 9 / defiant 1 (defiant 10) / ur-priest 10.

That is tasty considering the bennies from trading nine cleric levels for Defiant. The important part would be if you had to play through getting the Concentration up that far. Not all games start at level 20.

If you can do it though, awesome.

[Fouredged Sword]

As I said, 18+.

This would be a build I would bring to the table if a Dm opened up with the phrase "Epic level godslaying", not a build I would try at level 10.

[Ramza00]

The bigger problem with being a definat+ur priest is that you can't use a holy symbol which most spells and turn/rebuke undead require.

This is fluff I think a DM should handwave away, but whatever it is part of the class mechanics.

[Fouredged Sword]

That.... is actually a serious problem with the idea. Does anyone know a way to remove the holy symbol component from divine spells?


EDIT - what is the divine focus used for a ur-priest's spells? To quote the rules "The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith." suggesting that other divine casters use other things. A druid uses holly. I think we have crossed into unknown areas, as a ur-priest cannot HAVE a faith, much less have a holy symbol of his faith.

[MadGreenSon]

That.... is actually a serious problem with the idea. Does anyone know a way to remove the holy symbol component from divine spells?

Use the symbol of the Great Unknown? A particularly Ur-Priest thing to do would be to use a symbol representing yourself, the Athar would appreciate the humor there too, I think.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's actually a prestige class called Athar in Dragon issue 287, page 45. It gets pretty much the same things as the Defiant gets, but you regain lost divine spellcasting ability at the 3rd level and it even advances an existing divine spellcasting ability at levels 3-10. You don't get to trade in ex-Cleric levels, but you get your previous casting back, granted by the Great Unknown instead of a deity.

It requires BAB +7 and Kn: Religion 10 ranks, plus the ability to cast divine spells, among other things. Go something like Binder 8/ Ur-Priest 2/ Athar 10, or even Duskblade 5/ Hexblade* 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Athar 10/ whatever 2. *Hexblade can be replaced by anything that gets +1 BAB and Bluff as a class skill, preferably a spellcasting class so half its level is added to your Ur-Priest caster level.

[Waker]

I could see this as a viable build for levels 18+ if you can hit a DC 34 concentration check on a 1.

23 ranks, +7 con mod (high, but good for it's own sake), skill focus... There you go, +33 to concentration, you can cast 9th level spells without fail.

Go cleric 9 / defiant 1 (defiant 10) / ur-priest 10.

I'd prefer Steady Concentration over Skill Focus, since being able to always take a 10 means you only need a +24 modifier between skill ranks and your con.

I did run a Defiant/Ur Priest as an NPC in a joke campaign I ran some years ago. I thought it was rather amusing.

[Naanomi]

When you trade in all your Cleric levels (leaving you with no Base Class)... don't you lose all your weapon and armor proficiencies?

[Psyren]

When you trade in all your Cleric levels (leaving you with no Base Class)... don't you lose all your weapon and armor proficiencies?

You can only exchange 9 cleric/ex-cleric levels

[Thurbane]

I raised this question in Q&A, what do you guys think?

Q 177

If a Cleric trades two of his domains for Domain Feats, and later trades in all of his Cleric levels becoming a Defiant (Planar Handbook p.44), does he retain those feats?

[MadGreenSon]

I would think if you lost that last cleric level, you'd also lose the Domains and thus no longer have been able to trade for the feats...

Is this a character rebuild paradox? I'm getting the swimmy feeling I get when contemplating too much time travel.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I raised this question in Q&A, what do you guys think?

Domains and devotion feats are granted as class features of the Cleric class. You lose them immediately upon renouncing your deity when first taking Defiant. Even if you worship a cause or a nonpersonified source of divine magic, you lose all Cleric class features if you completely lose the Cleric class, including any devotion feats that were gained in place of domains.

If you spent some of your normal feats on devotion feats, then you would retain them as long as you still met their prerequisites.

Edit: Only a Cleric who has turned away from his deity can trade in ex-cleric levels for Defiant levels. So you would lose those devotion feats immediately upon renouncing your deity in order to meet the class's prerequisites.

[Ellowryn]

When you trade in all your Cleric levels (leaving you with no Base Class)... don't you lose all your weapon and armor proficiencies?

Technically, yes, if you were to trade in all your cleric levels for defiant levels you would be left with no armor or weapon proficiencies you had gained from your cleric class. It is of note however that urpriest gets simple weapon proficiency but no armor or shield (guess they figured robes would ward off the upset avatars of the gods they are stealing power from).

And as for the whole holy symbol thing, that's actually an odd one. It says that urpriests cast spells as clerics do, but make no mention of the use, or lack there of, of holy symbols. As mentioned before, just check with your Dm before you play and they will probably wave that.