Killing a large green dragon?

[Balor01]

So our party got {Scrubbed: killed} by a dragon. It was like, really, really humiliating.

There is this bridge dragon is guarding and we wanted to check it out a bit when beast came at us, Frightened us, then vomited acid on us. Then we ran. Invisibility and full withdraws saved our hides. Acid-wise this dragon can pretty much one-shot us.

Now funny thing is, party is about as strong as it gets: Its lvl 7 cleric, druid, wizard, warblade.

What I'd like from you guys is ideas on what spells should cleric and druid pick to bring this thing down permanently.

Here are (relevant) spells wiz has:

lvl1
True strike
Mage armor
Shield
Grease
Ray of clumsiness
Enlarge person
Silent image

lvl 2
Invisibility
Glitterdust
Ray of stupidity
Web
Ray of CLumsiness

lvl3
Fly
Dispel magic
Slow
Haste
Ray of exhaustion

lvl 4

Solid fog

I also have Split ray feat and Sculpt spell so rays can be split and area spells can be sculpted which is nice.

I'm asking for a cleric and druid because wiz knows what he knows and thats it.

For an example, lets say this is the dragon we are talking about:

Male juvenile green dragon; CR 8; Large dragon (air);
HD 14d12+42, hp 133; Init +0;
Spd 40 ft.,swim 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor);
AC 26(+4Mage armor), touch 9, flat-footed 22;
Base Atk +14; Grp +22; Atk +17 melee (2d6+4, bite);
Full Atk +17 melee (2d6+4, bite), +12 melee (1d8+2, 2 claws), +12 melee (1d6+2, 2 wings), +12 melee (1d8+6, tail slap);
Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with bite); SA breath weapon, frightful presence, spells; SQ blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., immunity to acid, magic sleep effects, and paralysis, low-light vision, water breathing;
AL LE;
SV Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +11; Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14.
Skills and Feats:
Bluff +7, Climb +12, Concentration +17, Diplomacy +12, Hide +12, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Listen +17, Search +14, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +9, Spot +19; Awaken Frightful Presence, Combat Expertise, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Wingover.
Breath Weapon (Su):
40-ft. cone, 8d6 acid, Reflex DC 20 half.
Frightful Presence (Ex): 35-ft. radius, HD 13 or fewer, Will DC 19 negates.
Spells:
As 1st-level sorcerer.
Sorcerer Spells Known
(5/4; save DC 12 + spell level): 0—
detect magic, ghost sound, prestidigitation, resistance;
1st—
color spray, mage armor.


thanks guys

[SinsI]

If he has Frightful Presence, he is Young Adult, not Juvenile.
With DR 5/magic, caster lvl 3, SR 19.

That means CR 11, +4 to your party - quite a nasty challenge.
From your arsenal, probably only Web works.

[Quirp]

Just quickly looking over the spell compendium:
For the druid vortex of teeth combined with your solid fog seems to be a good choice to lock the beast down and do continuous damage.
The cleric should probably focus on keeping you guys alive using mass resist energy, mass aid and perhaps cloak of bravery (all SC). This leaves his 4th level spell open.
Another way would be to focus on heavy debuffing with your ray of exhaustion and moon bolts (SC) from druid and cleric. This allows them to buff the group only expending the 4th level spells, relying on the warblade to kill the beast. You should try to stop it from fleeing with a solid fog.

For other advice it would be nice, if you could tell us which books you have access to and which domains the cleric has.

[Balor01]

Also: party did NOT get killed.

Party was:

- affected by Frightful Presence
- then vomited upon by acidic goo
- then ran away


If he has Frightful Presence, he is Young Adult, not Juvenile.


Err wat? Did you even read the stats?

Awaken Frightful Presence



For other advice it would be nice, if you could tell us which books you have access to and which domains the cleric has.

All books, but I do not have acess to Cleric stats.

We were thinking of using Grounding druid spell (could not find it online but Druid claims it reduces fly speed to 10ft or drops the creature from the air) but that was about it.

[AMFV]

Also: party did NOT get killed.

Party was:

- affected by Frightful Presence
- then vomited upon by acidic goo
- then ran away



Err wat? Did you even read the stats?

Awaken Frightful Presence



All books, but I do not have acess to Cleric stats.

We were thinking of using Grounding druid spell (could not find it online but Druid claims it reduces fly speed to 10ft or drops the creature from the air) but that was about it.

Downdraft is the spell you're looking for.

[Quirp]

With Frostburn available your druid could use Obscuring Snow and Snowsight to shut down its sight, giving its attacks a miss chance. Or the cleric could just use Shivering Touch, but that is even more boring.
Eye of the Hurricane (SC) is another option for the druid to reduce its ability to strafe breath your group.

In the end I think your group should be able to handle the dragon, if you can shut down the two worst attacks it has (frightful presence and breath weapon) by using cloak of bravery (at your level +7 to saves against fear for over an hour) and mass resist energy. Strength damage/penalties might make it possible for the warblade to disregard the number one rule of dragonfighting: never stand in full attack range of a dragon.

[rmnimoc]

I'd like to take this chance to suggest aboleth mucus (the mucus as a thrown weapon is on page 46 of savage species, but it is just the mucus in a bottle, touch attack to hit.. Rules on the mucus itself are on the srd). It's a thrown item that requires a fort save of 19, so on a 6 or below it fails. After failing the save it has conx2 round of life, then it passes out and dies.


Any creature coming into contact with and inhaling this substance must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or lose the ability to breathe air for the next 3 hours. An affected creature suffocates in 2d6 minutes if removed from the water. Renewed contact with the mucus cloud and failing another Fortitude save continues the effect for another 3 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based.


Suffocation
A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The save must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.


You nail it with that, it doesn't get to breathe. Sadly it still has it's breath weapon, but after ~4 minutes, it will be out cold. It lasts 3 hours, so the dragon will be dead long before it wears off. All you have to do is nail it, then keep it out of the water.

Have the cleric get bestow curse for con-6 (will negates, but it has a rather weak will save), and you cut down the rounds it can manage by 12.

From there have the cleric use a scroll of poison, at a fort of +9 it will probably fail, that is -1d10 con there. At best, it is down to one con and falls unconscious. At worst that is -7 con, so it will only last at max 20 rounds. If you can grab a scroll of contagion (slimy doom) (Spell level 3 on cleric) or enervation (4 on wiz) on top of that, game over.

Sorry if that doesn't help, but I love recommending Aboleth Mucus.

[SinsI]

Err wat? Did you even read the stats?


It is AN EXAMPLE.

For an example, lets say this is the dragon we are talking about:

By default Large Dragon with Frightful Presence = Young Adult.

[Balor01]

IMPORTANT UPDATE!(have forgotten to mention it before.)

We can only switch spells. No items. Thing is we are in a wilderness and there are no handy artificers around. Thus, spells only.

[docnessuno]

The best way to kill a dragon for spellcasters relies on RTA and TA spells, possibly affecting his Dex score.

Blinding Spittle
Downdraft
Resist energy, Mass / multiple Protection from energy
Anti-Dragon Aura
Ray of Dizzyness
Ray of Exhaustion
Shivering Touch

[Faily]

The scenario above certainly makes me think it's Red Hand of Doom. :smallbiggrin:


Hit the Dragon with Touch Attacks, as well as Debuffs. I noticed Glitterdust and Slow at least in the Wizard book, which would help with reducing the Dragon's efficiency in the combat. Really wish there was a Blur on the list there to help more against the Dragon's attacks though, but as you said the Wizzy-list can't really be changed. :)

Ray of Clumsiness will make the other Touch Attacks easier since it reduces his Dexterity. The Cleric could hit him with Bestow Curse to reduce his capability further, but remember that you guys also need to make sure the Dragon doesn't run away to wait out the debuffs and buff himself up, so Downdraft does a good job of keeping him on the ground.

The Warblade hopefully has access to some Touch Attack related Maneuvers too. :)

For avoiding being panicked again by the Fear Aura, there's Cloak of Bravery, Remove Fear and I do believe there is even a specific anti Dragon Fear spell in Spell Compendium.

[Inevitability]

Let the wizard spam ray of clumsiness. The dragon has abysmal touch AC, only 10 dex, and no SR. You are dealing 1d6+3 dexterity damage every time you hit it.

If the wizard has 10 dexterity, you have a 75 % chance to hit the dragon every round, and deal 6.5 dexterity damage on average.
After two or three rounds, the dragon should be lying helpless on the ground, and you then just have to CDG it a few times.

[BizzaroStormy]

It sounds to me like you guys are playing Red Hand of Doom. Tell me, did the game start off with you fighting a bunch of goblinoids and a couple hellhounds? If so, I might just be able to help you.

[Balor01]

After two or three rounds, the dragon should be lying helpless on the ground, and you then just have to CDG it a few times.
You are aware that Ray of clumsiness can not reduce DEX below 1?

@BizzaroStormy
Actually, we started off as budyguards for caravan. Its kind of oriental-ish setting. After being dropped off in a large trade market/fair, we got this quest to take over a bridge, that was supposedly held by some goblins. And then, bam, the dragon.

[evil-frosty]

Sounds like it is either a modified RHOD or the DM just lifted the Skull Gorge Bridge encounter from the mod. To handle the dragon, Cloak of Bravery is a must buff since its frightful presence can end the encounter before it really begins. Downdraft or Earthbind both Druid spells out of the SC are helpful to minimize the dragon's mobility. The warblade should engage it when it is stuck on the ground but has to avoid being full attacked since if he is full attacked the warblade will probably be giblets of varying sizes.

Out of the wizard spells: enlarge person the warblade, glitterdust is always an option, solid fog will reduce the dragon's flight ability, if it does land or is forced to land both grease and web can help make it stay down. The cleric should be focusing on keeping everyone alive. Also haste is never a bad thing, and if you can slow it that could make the encounter a cake walk.

[BizzaroStormy]

There arent many options as far as the wizard are concerned. If yo can get away to recoup your spells per day, your other casters have a few options, which due to the dragon's spell resistance, you'll probably need to use a few before something actually works.

Cleric
Blindness/Deafness: 3rd level spell that can make the thing permanently blind.

Ok so the cleric only gets one real option for itself.

Druid
Resist Energy, Lesser: 2nd level spell to soak up some of that breath weapon damage.
Call Lightning: 3rd Level spell that can ping the dragon for damage a bit at a time.
Protection From Energy: 3rd spell to soak up damage from the breath weapon.


Both classes could burn a 4th level spell slot to throw Air Walk on the warblade but it would end up being bad if the dragon decided to stat hitting him with full attacks.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Have the druid summon a Yellow Musk Creeper (FF) with SNA IV. The DC is a little on the low side but once the dragon is affected with Musk Puff it's pretty much dead without outside help.
rmnimoc has already mentioned ways to lower its fort save.

[Inevitability]

You are aware that Ray of clumsiness can not reduce DEX below 1?


Whoops, overlooked that. Anyway, just cast ray of clumsiness once, and then use ray of exhaustion. Even if the dragon makes its save, it still has a -2 penalty to dexterity. (that can reduce its dexterity to 0)

It still works, you just have to use a higher level spell for it.

[docnessuno]

Let the wizard spam ray of clumsiness. The dragon has abysmal touch AC, only 10 dex, and no SR. You are dealing 1d6+3 dexterity damage every time you hit it.

1) Ray of clumsiness cannot reduce Dex below 1
2) Ray of clumsiness inflicts NO Dex damage, it does inflict a Dex penalty witch (as each other bonus/penalty) doesn't stack with itself.

That's why there is Shivering Touch

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a 3rd level Clerc/Wizard spell named Shivering Touch in Frostburn, which deals 3d6 Dex damage with no saving throw. You can get some +1 Spell Storing Arrows crafted (but you can't find them as random loot per the table) and put that spell into a few of them to deliver it at a distance.

[Hurnn]

There's a 3rd level Clerc/Wizard spell named Shivering Touch in Frostburn, which deals 3d6 Dex damage with no saving throw. You can get some +1 Spell Storing Arrows crafted (but you can't find them as random loot per the table) and put that spell into a few of them to deliver it at a distance.

unfortunately it's considered cheese of the highest level, one of the most broken spells WotC ever put out and outright banned at many tables.

[Stoneback]

Feed the Warblade to it.

[KorbeltheReader]

Yeah... one major caveat about shivering touch: it only works once because it's pretty much a sure-fire ban as soon as the GM sees it. You know your GM and the culture of your table better than we do, but at many tables one-shotting the GM's dragon with a spell he didn't know about and ok the use of is considered a jerk move.

Frankly I can't imagine a GM allowing a spell like that of such a low level unless they've already prepared a contingency. Otherwise, every encounter with dragons, giant, maruts, etc. from now on will be a triviality.

[(Un)Inspired]

I honestly don't think this dragon stands a chance against you guys at all. You're cleric can make its acid and fear basically non issues with spells that have already been written about.

Just approach the dragon and let it come at you guys. Taunt it, moon it, do what ever you need to do to get its attention.

Have your druid and wizard hold odwndraft and web for as soon as the dragon gets fairly close. Pull the dragon out of hte sky and pin it to the ground.

Then it just a matter of the warblade and the druid's animal companion carving it to pieces while the wizard rays the bollocks of the dragon to make its ac even lower and the cleric keeping everyone in tip top condition.

Everyone participates, everyone is integral, the dragon doesn't stand a chance

Edit: No need for shivering touch

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Shivering Touch
Doesn't work on any dragon that is a credible threat. Because they'll have Awaken Spell Resistance several times, meaning you'll be facing SR of 27 for this kind of dragon, potentially as much as SR 60 for Great Wurms - and that's before items. Dragons are smart enough to know spellcasters are their most effective opponents and search for ways to counter that.

[docnessuno]

Doesn't work on any dragon that is a credible threat. Because they'll have Awaken Spell Resistance several times, meaning you'll be facing SR of 27 for this kind of dragon, potentially as much as SR 60 for Great Wurms - and that's before items. Dragons are smart enough to know spellcasters are their most effective opponents and search for ways to counter that.

And how exactly does this matter for this topic?


Male juvenile green dragon


SQ blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., immunity to acid, magic sleep effects, and paralysis, low-light vision, water breathing;


Awaken Frightful Presence, Combat Expertise, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Wingover.

[Balor01]

Allrighty.
On Shivering touch I have gotten this kind reply (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1338/39/1338398662350.jpg) by the DM.

Also:
Yellow Musk Creeper is from pathfinder, not 3.5



You can get some +1 Spell Storing Arrows crafted
how large must the letters exactly be for people to read them? WE CAN NOT RESSUPLY

@(Un)Inspired
You know web only works if suspended between two opposite surfaces? There may or may not be these if dragon decides to fly above trees, for an example. Also web can be torn apart no problemo by this fella.

Its AC is currently 2friggin6! Thats 26! Pretty much all summons are unable to hit it and wbl is able to hit it on 13. (has +13 to hit)

[(Un)Inspired]

That's why you hold your downdraft and web till you can slurp him into an area you can anchor your net.

Your dragon still needs to roll a 16 on his strength check to tear through the web. That only gets harder after you've split rayed of exhaustion'd him.

If you have the cleric cast the downdraft you can have your Druid kelp strand the dragon to make it even harder to break out if your web trap. He can then follow up with moon bolts to put even further str damage into this dragon.

Exhausted, grappled and entangled the dragons ac should be garbage.

Exhausted, grappled and moon bolted his attacks aren't gonna do jack to you guys.

[eggynack]

Allrighty.
On Shivering touch I have gotten this kind reply (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1338/39/1338398662350.jpg) by the DM.
How's about lahm's finger darts (BoVD, 98)? That spell is completely different.


Yellow Musk Creeper is from pathfinder, not 3.5
It's in the fiend folio, page 190.

[ericgrau]

Did you find out whether or not it has SR? Did its acid average around 36 or 45 damage? That will also tell if you if it's young adult or not, which is significantly more dangerous. Though keep in mind frightful presence only makes you shaken at your level, in case your DM forgot. If he does have SR, don't use SR yes spells.

With that much acid damage protection from energy (acid) is the obvious choice. From there the wizard should spam webs and solid fogs as much as possible to trade actions with it and keep it locked down with SR: no. The druid can do the same with sleet storm if the wizard can't prepare enough, though you need to hold or ready your actions to attack immediately after the dragon comes out. An early haste might be nice too if you can get the drop on the dragon. He's gonna laugh at SoDs unless you're really lucky so next you need to pile on 133 damage against 22 AC (9 touch). So expect maybe 1/2 of attacks to connect. Ideally you'll get 40-60 damage per round, or about 14-20 DPR each among your 3 melee (assuming the cleric's strength is good).

Don't worry too much about the flight since it's poor maneuverability and he has to close to melee to reach you. Though try to get him indoors if you can. And if he is able to fly to flee, nobody flying will be able to keep up anyway. A couple spells with good range like ice storm and searing light may be good in case he does flee. Their damage is no save and close to par, but there may be better options out there.

[(Un)Inspired]

Have you thought about simply feeding yourselves to the dragon?

It is a dragon after all. A superior organism. Maybe it's for the best that bipedal mortals should just be food for such a glorious creature.

[rmnimoc]

Have you considered asking the dragon to feed itself to you? Diplomacy checks aren't exactly hard by this level. As the superior organism it should know that it stands no chance against you. Maybe it's for the best that quadrapedal mortals should give their lives to be a part of something greater, like your solid waste.

[eggynack]

Could there possibly be a compromise? The party draws lots to see which half gets eaten, and then the dragon eats that half of the party, and then you roll a d4 with each side representing one half of the dragon (front, back, left, and right), and the remaining party members eat that half. It seems to be the only equitable solution to this problem.

[(Un)Inspired]

Have you considered asking the dragon to feed itself to you? Diplomacy checks aren't exactly hard by this level. As the superior organism it should know that it stands no chance against you. Maybe it's for the best that quadrapedal mortals should give their lives to be a part of something greater, like your solid waste.


Could there possibly be a compromise? The party draws lots to see which half gets eaten, and then the dragon eats that half of the party, and then you roll a d4 with each side representing one half of the dragon (front, back, left, and right), and the remaining party members eat that half. It seems to be the only equitable solution to this problem.

Oh I just had a good laugh reading both of these and promptly got a dirty look from people sharing my university library with me. Well written guys.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also:
Yellow Musk Creeper is from pathfinder, not 3.5

Yellow Musk Creeper exists in 3.5 too. It's in Fiend Folio.

[rmnimoc]

Could there possibly be a compromise? The party draws lots to see which half gets eaten, and then the dragon eats that half of the party, and then you roll a d4 with each side representing one half of the dragon (front, back, left, and right), and the remaining party members eat that half. It seems to be the only equitable solution to this problem.

We might as well make it truly fair and let the dragon eat half of each person. That way we can make it everyone gets their left half eaten. Fortunately, Green Dragons are always [Lawful] so it won't just half eat you then bail on it's part of the deal. It's nice to have trustworthy enemies.


Psssst, sleepy, eggy already said that an hour ago.