the difference between 9 & 10 wisdom?

[The Shadowdove]

Aside from -1 to your modifier....


The subtle differences in stat progression drive me nuts sometimes.


I even thought that intelligence as low as 7 was guttural and orcish...

Then I find out that 3-4 is the actual idiot while 7 is closer to highschool intellect.


How about some 1-18 examples?

=)

[paddyfool]

For int, perhaps simply multiply by 10 for a rough IQ conversion?

[SilverLeaf167]

Well, there's frankly no noticeable difference between 9 and 10 Wisdom that would be distinguishable from (very) slight nuances in the player's RP style.

On the subject of Intelligence... 3 Intelligence is literally the lower limit on sapience. The very dumbest a creature can be before sinking into animal territory. It's definitely not simply "an idiot". To look at it another way: an Expert (the closest analogue to modern citizens) with 6 Intelligence has half the skill points of a "normal" person; not even smart or genius, literally the average. That means they've literally only learnt half as many things in their lives. I think that's pretty much the lowest you can go before rapidly approaching bestial (or seriously mentally disabled, but that's quite different) territory.

Multiplying by 10 to get IQ would sort of work, I guess, though of course IQ is hardly an accurate representation of intellect anyway.


As a side note, I'd say a lot of "high-school stupidity" is caused by putting their skill points into the wrong things, rather than a literal lack of mental faculties. :smalltongue:

[Piell]

The multiply by 10 method is grossly off - the best way to look at it is too look at a 3d6 probability chart (http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2009/jun/3d6_successchance.png). A score of 10 is about 50% percentile, a 9 is around 40% (so 60% of people are wiser than a person with 9 wisdom).

[Zweisteine]

7 is not high school level intelligence. In our society, high school is the background training for any career (i.e. human starting age is 15+4d1 for simple classes). At that time, the graduates should have an average of 10.5 intelligence. 7 would be more of a young child'd intellect.


I found this (http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/katz/dnd/kids.html) interesting webpage about children in D&D. (But don't forget this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16152989#post16152989) if you ever think about using children (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16153403#post16153403) in D&D.)

EDIT:
The above poster is correct. Multiplying by 10 is horrible inaccurate for determining int, especially as IQ isn't a straight up measure of intelligence. That puts the people with the highest IQs above 18, which is normally an impossibility (and a few above 20, so it's not explainable by them having hit level 4).

[MrNobody]

Well, there's frankly no noticeable difference between 9 and 10 Wisdom that would be distinguishable from (very) slight nuances in the player's RP style.


I agree, and that's true also for Int and Cha!
Since, as said in players handbook, Wisdom describes willpower, common sense, perception and intuition, every lacking point should make the character less focused on his surroundings, less capable of catching the sense of jokes and "sayings".
Things like:
- Stop beating around the bush!
- Bush? Which bush?

Low Int implies less skill, but also less reasoning. Low Int Pcs aren't curious, are close-minded and often forget/refuse to put details together. If they have a personal aim, they go for it without looking at the big picture. They can be brilliant in solving small problems (tactics for a battle, for ex.) and have fast reaction when knowledge isn't needed, but are unable to pursue a long term action and plan their doings in advance.
I found an interesting way of playing low INT PCs by... not caring of the story tha DM puts on! It may seem odd, but if you don't care about the story, you miss details, and missing details is exactly a prerogative of low Int characters. By deliberately ignoring the big picture you "attune" with your Pc low Int and are free to think small without being "distracted" by other issues.

Int 3-4 is pure instinct: he doesn't plan, doesn't question, almost doesn't think. Such Pc is driven by the law of "action-reaction", like an animal. (I know that there are animals capable of small planning, but here i'm simplifiying).

Int 7 is the typical superstitious close-minded medieval farmer: "i care only of my fields and my cows, if you know more things that i do, either you are a witch or a saint, and in both case what you do is not of my concern. Let me live and do your business somewhere else." (simplifying again)

[Der_DWSage]

There was a previous topic about Intelligence about...six months ago, I want to say. It pretty much came down to 'Start at 10 = 100, then subtract or add 5 IQ for every point you deviate from 10.' Makes it much more believable.

I'd also point out that all animals have an intelligence of 1 or 2, but most of them have Wisdom somewhere between 11 and the teens, signifying that they're very good at putting dots together-even if the extent that they care about the dots is 'get food today' or 'don't get food today.'

Charisma is a harder one-but with it being force of personality, I'd say that your average doormat of a person is the one most likely to have Charisma 8 or lower, while the person that always has friends around has at least a 12. Most pop stars that people actually like would be around 14-17.

Robert Downey Jr. and Morgan Freeman have a Charisma of at least 20. RDJ has some kind of class that adds to his base stats, while Morgan Freeman is getting those age bonuses.

[The Trickster]

Just for fun, the probability of rolling an 18 using 3d6 is 0.4370%. Using 4d6, drop the lower, it jumps to about 1.62%. (I am getting these numbers from 3rd party sources, but they seem right. I solved the 3d6 one, not so much the 4d6 one).

The probability of having an 180 IQ is less than 0.0001%. The same goes for 0.001%.

Now to be fair, heroes are rare too, so that needs to be taken into play (I think I saw something about 6% of people are heroes in D&D? Not sure if that is offical or not).

[Duke of Urrel]

Don't forget that there are three mental abilities in D&D: Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. So trying to calculate an IQ score, which is a throwback to the antiquated unitary view of human intelligence, is doomed to fail from the very beginning. There is not one intellectual capacity; rather, there are many intellectual capacities, and even D&D recognizes three of them.

If your Wisdom is low, you're foolish, forgetful, gullible, and weak-willed. But you may still have a high Intelligence score, which makes you very knowledgeable and skilled in other ways. You also may still have a high Charisma score, which makes you self-assured, personable, articulate, and able to pretend that you're a lot less of a fool than you actually are.

[Eldan]

Just for fun, the probability of rolling an 18 using 3d6 is 0.4370%. Using 4d6, drop the lower, it jumps to about 1.62%. (I am getting these numbers from 3rd party sources, but they seem right. I solved the 3d6 one, not so much the 4d6 one).

The probability of having an 180 IQ is less than 0.0001%. The same goes for 0.001%.

Now to be fair, heroes are rare too, so that needs to be taken into play (I think I saw something about 6% of people are heroes in D&D? Not sure if that is offical or not).

I once had a very boring afternoon and solved 4d6b3 here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApCuoSxQMcvddEtoTWtwNWZLZXItZWVSd0N0VFhPQ 0E&usp=sharing) when it came up in a thread. On the first sheet, colours show the lowest die. On the second, colours are by result. I've only coloured averages, though, not chances.

[UnoriginalGamer]

Aside from -1 to your modifier....


The subtle differences in stat progression drive me nuts sometimes.


I even thought that intelligence as low as 7 was guttural and orcish...

Then I find out that 3-4 is the actual idiot while 7 is closer to highschool intellect.


How about some 1-18 examples?

=)

As far as I can actually remember. Int 3 is intelligence of the tarrasque and the way my DM shows it is that, they are only barely sentient enough to know they are hungry and want to eat.

Int 7 or 8 was the amount that was the very lowest to at least be able to speak a language. 10-11 is about the average person.

[SilverLeaf167]

As far as I can actually remember. Int 3 is intelligence of the tarrasque and the way my DM shows it is that, they are only barely sentient enough to know they are hungry and want to eat.

Int 7 or 8 was the amount that was the very lowest to at least be able to speak a language. 10-11 is about the average person.
Well, no offense to you or your DM, but those are nowhere near the actual numbers (RAW) or what they're typically described as (RAI). As mentioned above, Int 3 is the actual minimum for sapience (and language). Even an animal with Int 1 is aware of its hunger. Heck, even vermin and some undead, which have no Int score, know when they're hungry, know how to seek it, and react to their environments, among other things. Obviously this depiction worked just fine for you, but it's blatantly houseruled and not really relevant to a general question.

(This is another of those posts where I feel like I'm being really rude and want to write another paragraph just to explain that I don't mean it like that. This disclaimer shall stand in for said paragraph.)

[Yanisa]

As mentioned above, Int 3 is the actual minimum for sapience (and language).

Although it is hard to gauge what 3 intelligence actuality means within the game. The handbook says "humanlike" intelligence and that's all we got from a RAW standpoint. It doesn't mention languages at all, but it is implied.
I vaguely remember reading about how many words a character with a certain int would know, but I cant find it anymore. It was like something as a character with 3 int would know about 150-300 words max. A sort of "Me Tarzan, You Jane" speech.

[SilverLeaf167]

Although it is hard to gauge what 3 intelligence actuality means within the game. The handbook says "humanlike" intelligence and that's all we got from a RAW standpoint. It doesn't mention languages at all, but it is implied.
I vaguely remember reading about how many words a character with a certain int would know, but I cant find it anymore. It was like something as a character with 3 int would know about 150-300 words max. A sort of "Me Tarzan, You Jane" speech.
Well, I'll just chalk that up as one of those things that I've learned to accept as RAW after hearing it so many times. :smalltongue: It might be written somewhere else, of course. That's one of my biggest problems with D&D books... you can often see where the writers realized they hadn't explained something before, and it then ended up in some splatbook where nobody would think to look for it.

[UnoriginalGamer]

Well, no offense to you or your DM, but those are nowhere near the actual numbers (RAW) or what they're typically described as (RAI). As mentioned above, Int 3 is the actual minimum for sapience (and language). Even an animal with Int 1 is aware of its hunger. Heck, even vermin and some undead, which have no Int score, know when they're hungry, know how to seek it, and react to their environments, among other things. Obviously this depiction worked just fine for you, but it's blatantly houseruled and not really relevant to a general question.

(This is another of those posts where I feel like I'm being really rude and want to write another paragraph just to explain that I don't mean it like that. This disclaimer shall stand in for said paragraph.)

I'd love to add my own disclaimer that that was only what I could remember off the top of my head. Pretty sure it was explained more specifically and I just can't remember :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

That puts the people with the highest IQs above 18, which is normally an impossibility (and a few above 20, so it's not explainable by them having hit level 4).
The highest effective Intelligence it's possible to have at level 1 is 31 - 18, +3 for age, +2 from the +0 CR Prodigy NPC template (which is intended to model unusually gifted people), and +4 on Int and Int-based checks from the same Prodigy template, which is effectively a +8 since nothing in our world runs on Int besides skill and ability checks. Level 4 bumps that up to 32.


Charisma is a harder one-but with it being force of personality, I'd say that your average doormat of a person is the one most likely to have Charisma 8 or lower, while the person that always has friends around has at least a 12. Most pop stars that people actually like would be around 14-17.
Charisma is not linked with being likable or a push-over. All it does is make it easier or harder for you to influence people you want to influence. A person with 8 Charisma could be a doormat, but they just as easily could be an obstinate, stubborn person who is unlikable precisely because they always refuse to budge on everything.

[Hippie_Viking]

Well if we want to equal an int score with iq (however debated that might be) we should be able to compare the 3d6 curve with the iq curve of the population.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_02Cqq_6pNSs/TSOXngwmgUI/AAAAAAAAAFc/1sEC2xFPJnQ/s1600/Screen+shot+2010-12-31+at+20.59.17.png[
http://www.samtiden.com/sites/all/themes/brun_/images/jensen01.jpg[

{TABLE="HEAD"]Int|Iq
3|≤60
4|≤70
≤6|≤80
≤8|≤90
≤10|≤100
≤12|≤110
≤14|≤120
≤16|≤130
17|≤140
≥18|≥140
[/TABLE]

And there we have it:smalltongue: hmm seems like you could count 10=100 +-5 per point of int except at the ends of the bell curve... This is of course not perfect but i think the ~0,5% with 18 int are also the ~0,5% with over 140 in iq and so on.

I might have done some mistakes with this and I also don't know how accurate the iq curve is, but it was my best shot:smallsmile:

[eastmabl]

The way I explain the mental stats to new players is that Intelligence is what you know, Wisdom is knowing what to do with your knowledge, and Charisma is convincing others to do what you want, given your knowledge.

I'd say that the difference between a 10 and 9 wisdom is that the person with the Wis penalty is prone to act brashly and jump to faulty conclusions more often than someone with no Wisdom penalty.

[Zweisteine]

I might have done some mistakes with this and I also don't know how accurate the iq curve is, but it was my best shot:smallsmile:

That's not a bad job, though I think it's a bit inaccurate.

I know that an average IQ is 90-110, so 110 shouldn't be intelligence 12. The one given point of connection between IQ and intelligence score would be that an IQ from 90-110 matches an intelligence score of 10 or 11, which can be divided so an IQ of 90-100 is an intelligence of 10, and an IQ of 100-110 is an intelligence of 11.

Here's the the die roll probabilities:

Roll Percentage
----- ----------
3 0.463
4 1.389
5 2.778
6 4.630
7 6.944
8 9.722
9 11.574
10 12.500
11 12.500
12 11.574
13 9.722
14 6.944
15 4.630
16 2.778
17 1.389
18 0.463

And here's the IQ distribution (by my calculator based on various websites, go google IQ distribution to get more info):

My overall findings were this: the charts really don't line up all that much at all. The probability of getting a 3 on 3d6 is 10 times the probability of an IQ being between 0 and 50 (according to my calculations, at least, which seem correct to me). Approximately 50% of humanity has an IQ between 90 and 110. Using 3d6, you have a 25% chance of getting a 10 or 11, which is the average score.

Conclusion: D&D has way more variation in both directions than real life.

I was going to write a bunch more, like proposed connections between the systems (ex. (90-100)IQ=(10-11)Int), but my time is up for now. I'll be back if I remember later.




The way I explain the mental stats to new players is that Intelligence is what you know, Wisdom is knowing what to do with your knowledge, and Charisma is convincing others to do what you want, given your knowledge.
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.
Charisma is convincing someone to put tomatoes in a fruit salad anyway.

That aside, wisdom isn't just knowing what to do. In D&D, it seems more often to be intuition. Being intelligent alone is enough to know applications of your knowledge. Wisdom generally is intuition, sensing, and willpower, so it mostly covers your subconscious mental efforts.

[Eonir]

If your Wisdom is low, you're foolish, forgetful, gullible, and weak-willed. But you may still have a high Intelligence score, which makes you very knowledgeable and skilled in other ways. You also may still have a high Charisma score, which makes you self-assured, personable, articulate, and able to pretend that you're a lot less of a fool than you actually are.

Oh my god you just described me :smalleek:

[Zweisteine]

I bet that describes a whole lot of us gamer-types...

I believe that the general consensus is that a low wisdom is what Elan suffers from
It also could be a common cause of some mental irregularities (like ADHD, and some things like autism). The inability to read people can be a sign of that, perhaps, and lack of assertiveness in all situations, but it really could be a lot more.

[Tengu_temp]

10 wisdom makes you average. 9 wisdom means you're slightly below average - a bit absentminded, a bit lacking in common sense, a bit impulsive.

Do note that when using point buy, 8 is the lowest you can usually go - so even though it's technically only slightly below average, it can be used to represent someone who's significantly below average in that particular ability.


The way I explain the mental stats to new players is that Intelligence is what you know, Wisdom is knowing what to do with your knowledge, and Charisma is convincing others to do what you want, given your knowledge.

Intelligence is not knowledge. Knowledge skills are knowledge. Intelligence is reason, logic, and the ability to come up with solutions to problems.

[Keneth]

The difference between 9 and 10 Wisdom is 1 Wisdom.

[Zweisteine]

Intelligence is not knowledge. Knowledge skills are knowledge. Intelligence is reason, logic, and the ability to come up with solutions to problems.
It is also memory. The ability to remember details likely falls under intelligence. When you put one rank into every knowledge skill, and have 30 intelligence, you basically went to a big library, skimmed all the books on facts, and remembered all of it. If you put ranks in the skills, you actually read the books carefully.

[Yanisa]

It is also memory. The ability to remember details likely falls under intelligence. When you put one rank into every knowledge skill, and have 30 intelligence, you basically went to a big library, skimmed all the books on facts, and remembered all of it. If you put ranks in the skills, you actually read the books carefully.

Both Wisdom and Int deal with memory, only on different levels. Int is the more practical side, whether you remember how you make a sword, or what the weakness is of an devil. That is int.
Wisdom on the hand deals with perception, can you remember if the king has a ring? How many bandits did surround you? That is wisdom.

I never understood why people tend to think wisdom and int are similar, because the player's handbook (/srd) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#intelligenceInt) made it pretty clear.

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. (It also gives skill points to represent what you have learned.)
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.
While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

And like others said before. If 10 is default, then 9 is slightly below. And people with 9 wisdom are less perceptive of their surroundings. You get a -1 in spot and listen to represent that. In role play terms they might lack a bit of common sense and might take things more literally, be more impulsive, but not by a lot and probably barely noticeable in a group.


Well if we want to equal an int score with iq (however debated that might be) we should be able to compare the 3d6 curve with the iq curve of the population.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_02Cqq_6pNSs/TSOXngwmgUI/AAAAAAAAAFc/1sEC2xFPJnQ/s1600/Screen+shot+2010-12-31+at+20.59.17.png[
http://www.samtiden.com/sites/all/themes/brun_/images/jensen01.jpg[

{TABLE="HEAD"]Int|Iq
3|≤60
4|≤70
≤6|≤80
≤8|≤90
≤10|≤100
≤12|≤110
≤14|≤120
≤16|≤130
17|≤140
≥18|≥140
[/TABLE]

And there we have it:smalltongue: hmm seems like you could count 10=100 +-5 per point of int except at the ends of the bell curve... This is of course not perfect but i think the ~0,5% with 18 int are also the ~0,5% with over 140 in iq and so on.

I might have done some mistakes with this and I also don't know how accurate the iq curve is, but it was my best shot:smallsmile:

It has been done before and yours pretty similar to others I have seen. (I could link, but that seems mean)
As for far easier calculating, I personally prefer the [Int times 5 + 50 = IQ] method, but for many people that's too hard and they prefer the [Int times 10 = IQ]... which as your and many other, charts show, is highly inaccurate. Unlike the one I prefer who is slightly inaccurate.

While we are tackling the icky subjects of comparing Int to IQ... A skimming of Wikipedia made me found this: IQ based on average Real-life accomplishments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Real-life_accomplishments). Which shows us that people with 5 int have a 50/50 chance to reach high school.
On other tables (and there are a lot here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification)) the similar trend seems to imply that 70 IQ is about borderline self reliant. To bring it back to dnd it would mean int 3 people can not take good care of themselves, and int 4 people barely can. Int 5 already can even follow some basic school but they probably wont get far.

Personally I prefer to compare my int 3 characters to people that grow up with animal parents, like Tarzan, but without the ability to adapt to human societies.

[Valtu]

Not to oversimplify things, but shouldn't 10 be the average for pretty much any stat?

A character with all 10s across the board wouldn't have any distinct advantages to anything at all, but isn't taking any penalties, either, which sounds about as "average" as it gets, in the sense that all 10s would be a very functional and well-rounded, if very unremarkable, adult.

(Not taking into account population/demographic-based statistics, where the numeric "average" citizen of a kingdom might have "below average" inteligence)

[Yanisa]

Not to oversimplify things, but shouldn't 10 be the average for pretty much any stat?

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) says it 10 or 11, small difference.


Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses.

Although it also suggest monsters, and by extend, humanoids, with NPC or PC class levels have more varied stats.

It leads to 9 is below average, and for IQ charts that 10-11 int is the range of 90-110 IQ.

[PersonMan]

Not to oversimplify things, but shouldn't 10 be the average for pretty much any stat?

It is.


(Not taking into account population/demographic-based statistics, where the numeric "average" citizen of a kingdom might have "below average" inteligence)

Why would they?

[Chronos]

Average IQ is not 90-110. An average is a single number, and average IQ is 100. 90-110 is a range that can be reasonably be described as "close to average" but then again, so could 95-105, or 85-115, depending on how close you want "close" to mean.

Likewise, the average Int in D&D is 10.5, not 10 or 11. This is less of an issue, since D&D treats 10 and 11 as the same in almost every way. Still, it's not actually possible in D&D to have a score that's exactly average, just one that's slightly above average, or one that's slightly below average.

[Yanisa]

Average IQ is not 90-110. An average is a single number, and average IQ is 100. 90-110 is a range that can be reasonably be described as "close to average" but then again, so could 95-105, or 85-115, depending on how close you want "close" to mean.

Likewise, the average Int in D&D is 10.5, not 10 or 11. This is less of an issue, since D&D treats 10 and 11 as the same in almost every way. Still, it's not actually possible in D&D to have a score that's exactly average, just one that's slightly above average, or one that's slightly below average.

Pardon me, but the game calls "a 10 or an 11" the average. Its RAW! :smalltongue:

Besides I did call 90-110 a range, not an average, don't insult my 18 real life int thank you very much.

[Seto]

The way I think of mental stats is this :

- From the outside to the inside. Wisdom is what deals with the information that your mind receives - overall it's your ability to be influenced by reality. (Sensory perception, intuition, keeping your feet on the ground and anchoring your decisions in reality...) Its point of reference is reality.
- On the inside. Intelligence is what deals with the information that your mind contains - overall it's your ability to treat knowledge. (learning, abstract reasoning, sense of complexity, dissecting, reorganizing and putting together what you learnt) It has no point of reference but itself - which is why it needs Wisdom.
- From the inside to the outside. Charisma is what deals with the information that your mind wants to force upon the world - overall it's your ability to influence reality. (force of personality, passion and conviction, will...) Its point of reference is yourself.

There's a nice continuity from one stat to another. Poor Wisdom means that you can make complex theories and systems to encompass the world, and convince people of them, but they're often based on nothing concrete and you constantly struggle to make basic decisions. (the Metaphysician). Poor Intelligence means that you know what's what and can act upon it easily, but sometimes when you stop to think about it, it confuses you because you don't know why and how (the Fearless Leader). Poor Charisma means that you have a great understanding of the world, but it stays mostly theoretical because you are unable to act upon it : when people challenge your views, you often fail to make your point, even though you're right (the Laconic thinker).

[jedipotter]

In general, for day-to-day things, you would not notice a difference of 1 to 3 in most ability scores. You would need to get real nitpicky, to even notice one guy was a 9 and one was a 10. Plus you always have chance and luck. If you give a puzzle to a INT 9 guy and a INT 18 guy, it is possible that the 9 guy might get the right answer and the 18 might mess up.

[Sewercop]

I know that an average IQ is 90-110, so 110 shouldn't be intelligence 12. The one given point of connection between IQ and intelligence score would be that an IQ from 90-110 matches an intelligence score of 10 or 11, which can be divided so an IQ of 90-100 is an intelligence of 10, and an IQ of 100-110 is an intelligence of 11.


Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.
Charisma is convincing someone to put tomatoes in a fruit salad anyway.


Average iq is 100, no more no less. Always 100.
Inteligence is to wonder if a tomato can be made to work in a fruit salad.
Intelligence to know what types of taste it can be combined with.
Intelligence to know when you are in deep waters.
Did you know liquorice and salmon is delish together?
Vanilla mayo is awesome with that.

Wisdom is to know when not to speak, charisma for trying to speak even thou you say something you know will get reprecussions.

[PersonMan]

Inteligence is to wonder if a tomato can be made to work in a fruit salad.

Intelligence is not curiosity.


Intelligence to know what types of taste it can be combined with.
Intelligence to know when you are in deep waters.

Intelligence is not knowledge.

[Sewercop]

What is curiosity then in d&d terms?
Are you saying wisdom?

[Seto]

It's a personality trait, not a stat. If you absolutely want to associate it with a stat, it'd probably fall under INT... (possibly WIS if curiosity is not simply a trait, but your chosen way of life "I will seek to know this world which I'm a part of"). But then a very clever person can feel nothing but contempt for all sorts of curiosity-type knowledge that they feel would be beneath them.

[Duke of Urrel]

Here are some ideas expressed schematically. For a clearer image, create a triangle with WISDOM, INTELLIGENCE, and CHARISMA at the corners and MEMORY, WILL, and LANGUAGE along the sides.

MEMORY seems to be a composite of Intelligence and Wisdom. Charisma seems not be involved with it. On the Wisdom side, memory is short-term, i.e. presence of mind. On the Intelligence side, memory is long-term, i.e. knowledge.

WILL seems to be a composite of Wisdom and Charisma. Intelligence seems not to be involved with it. On the Wisdom side, will is defensive, i.e. conviction. On the Charisma side, will is aggressive, i.e. influence.

LANGUAGE seems to be a composite of Intelligence and Charisma. Wisdom seems not to be involved with it. (Sense Motive skill works not by interpreting words, but by intuiting the secret intentions that these words conceal.) On the Intelligence side, language is theoretical, i.e. accurate translation. On the Charisma side, language is practical, i.e. persuasive expression.

Finally, there's MAGIC, which has to occupy the center of the triangle. In the Intelligence corner, magic is scholarly or scientific. In the Wisdom corner, magic is spiritual or religious. In the Charisma corner, magic is original or artistic.

Whereas WISDOM has an affinity with the senses and CHARISMA has an affinity with beauty, INTELLIGENCE seems to be the most purely mental of the three mental abilities, having no affinity with any physical organ except the brain. This disturbs the symmetry of my otherwise very triangular scheme.

[Zweisteine]

Both Wisdom and Int deal with memory, only on different levels. Int is the more practical side, whether you remember how you make a sword, or what the weakness is of an devil. That is int.
Wisdom on the hand deals with perception, can you remember if the king has a ring? How many bandits did surround you? That is wisdom.
If you actively noticed the king's ring when you saw him (or the DM mentioned it, and you remembered), it'd probably be an Int check to remember (if you as a player forgot). If you didn't see it (either the DM didn't say there was a ring and you didn't check, or he did and you forgot), you might need both, one to retroactively spot the ring, and one to remember doing so.

But that's probably entirely subjective.

Counting the bandits quickly is a spot check, so wisdom-based, as you say (unless you can just count the minis on the grid, of course :smallwink:).



Average IQ is not 90-110. An average is a single number, and average IQ is 100. 90-110 is a range that can be reasonably be described as "close to average" but then again, so could 95-105, or 85-115, depending on how close you want "close" to mean.

Likewise, the average Int in D&D is 10.5, not 10 or 11. This is less of an issue, since D&D treats 10 and 11 as the same in almost every way. Still, it's not actually possible in D&D to have a score that's exactly average, just one that's slightly above average, or one that's slightly below average.
I'd say that's rather nit-picky...

While your statement is mathematically correct, I wasn't talking about the numerical averages. I was talking about average intelligence. Anyone with an IQ from 90 to 110 has average intelligence, so the average IQ is 90-110.

If you want mathematical accuracy, back wherever I said "average," and proceeded to state a range rather than a value, just substitute in "the range of values considered average."

Average IQ is 100, yes, but most people have an IQ of 90-110, not 100. As I said, 50% of people fall in that range, as opposed to the 2.7% that have exactly 100. Any IQ in that range is considered average (or rather, anyone with an IQ in that range is of average intelligence).

And in D&D, nobody has 11 intelligence, so while the mathematical average value for intelligence is 10.5, the actual most common values are both 10 and 11. As with IQ, this just means that anyone with intelligence 10 or 11 has average intelligence.

[Flickerdart]

Whereas WISDOM has an affinity with the senses and CHARISMA has an affinity with beauty, INTELLIGENCE seems to be the most purely mental of the three mental abilities, having no affinity with any physical organ except the brain. This disturbs the symmetry of my otherwise very triangular scheme.
Charisma is claimed by the books to have an affinity with beauty, but there are a large number of counter-examples (aboleths are described as repulsive in their own entry, but have massive Charisma). In general, beauty across racial boundaries is a tricky thing that the writers clearly didn't think through.

As for Intelligence being related to the body...someone with Int 18 is better at climbing, jumping, swimming, and riding than someone with Int 10 (if all other things are equal) because they can put skill points into all of those things. So technique is definitely Int-based, at least for some things.

[Yanisa]

Intelligence is not curiosity.

Yet without int you cannot use that curiously, because you lack the ability to learn new things. Without wisdom or without charisma you can still be curious and learn new things. Without int you might can argue you can be curious but you will have a lot of trouble learning new things based on it.

At the other side of the argument animals can be very curious and have a int of 1 or 2.


Intelligence is not knowledge.

Except Int does govern skills you have learned, which is knowledge. Neither wisdom nor charisma deals with knowledge or skills either. Higher int leads to more skills, so you gained more knowledge in different disciplines.

At the other side of the argument animals are skilled and have knowledge of certain things (like birds building a nest) and again only have 1 or 2 int.

By RAW both your statement are right though, more because the RAW is really limited on what falls on what skill.


MEMORY seems to be a composite of Intelligence and Wisdom. Charisma seems not be involved with it. On the Wisdom side, memory is short-term, i.e. presence of mind. On the Intelligence side, memory is long-term, i.e. knowledge.

Wisdom is not really short term memory. Animals thrive on having a high wisdom to represent their skills-sets and thus their memory.
A better divide is that Int-Memory is conscious based on training and practice, where Wis-Memory is more sub-conscious, based on perception, and intuition.


If you actively noticed the king's ring when you saw him (or the DM mentioned it, and you remembered), it'd probably be an Int check to remember (if you as a player forgot). If you didn't see it (either the DM didn't say there was a ring and you didn't check, or he did and you forgot), you might need both, one to retroactively spot the ring, and one to remember doing so.

But that's probably entirely subjective.

Counting the bandits quickly is a spot check, so wisdom-based, as you say (unless you can just count the minis on the grid, of course :smallwink:).

The real problem is that memory is neither a RAW trait of either int or wis... However you rule it as a DM is a personal subjective choice. I just try to offer examples close to RAW.

Because Wisdom deals with perception, it feels logical that perception based memory should be a wisdom check. I might be stating it too hard as truth and not enough as "this is my interpretation." This is your disclaimer.

Also for clarification in both examples I do mean the question is asked after the event. Like a week ago you met a king, or three days ago your were ambushed by bandits. At the time both would be perception (spot/listen) checks and thus later when you try to remember it it would still be perception based.

Int might also be a decent choice for memory, but in game terms: " Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings"

Someone with high int and low wis won't remember how many bandits stole the king's ring and what color they were. Those were details he never could pick up in the first place, unless he has a lucky wisdom roll or trained himself in the art of picking up details.

[TuggyNE]

Pardon me, but the game calls "a 10 or an 11" the average. Its RAW! :smalltongue:

And once again the innumeracy of the developers rears its ugly head.

[Chronos]

Quoth Zweistein:

While your statement is mathematically correct, I wasn't talking about the numerical averages. I was talking about average intelligence. Anyone with an IQ from 90 to 110 has average intelligence, so the average IQ is 90-110.
It's certainly true that someone with a 90 or 110 IQ is very close to average, and saying that they are average is almost always a reasonable approximation. It does not follow, though, that 11 Int therefore corresponds to the range 100-110 IQ, nor that 10 corresponds to 90-100.

[Cirrylius]

The difference between 9 and 10 Wisdom is 1 Wisdom.

And the sound of one hand clapping is CL :smalltongue:

[Zweisteine]

It's certainly true that someone with a 90 or 110 IQ is very close to average, and saying that they are average is almost always a reasonable approximation. It does not follow, though, that 11 Int therefore corresponds to the range 100-110 IQ, nor that 10 corresponds to 90-100.
How, exactly, is 90-110 "almost always" a reasonable approximation of average intelligence?

If 90-110 is considered to be an average score, and half of all people fall within that range, it is not unreasonable to compare that range to the most similar range of intelligence scores, 10-11.

Also, understand that I am intentionally avoiding comparing the percent chances of or getting 10 or 11 to the IQ curve, as I have established that the two curves do not actually line up.

[PersonMan]

Yet without int you cannot use that curiously, because you lack the ability to learn new things. Without wisdom or without charisma you can still be curious and learn new things. Without int you might can argue you can be curious but you will have a lot of trouble learning new things based on it.

Without Int you're mindless and have no personality anyways, so the point would be moot.

Unless your Intelligence is incredibly low, you can learn new things. Curiosity doesn't mean that you have a massive bonus to Knowledge checks. Curiosity is a trait one can roleplay. Precisely how depends on the character and their stats. Someone with 6 Intelligence can be curious, but it'll play out differently than the one with 16 Intelligence. Similarly, two Int 6 people can be curious in very different manners - one may express a deep respect for complex things they don't understand, while another is of the attitude that if it isn't simple, it's probably not necessary ('It turns the wheel and makes what? Bah! We don't need nonsense like this, just push the damn thing!').






Except Int does govern skills you have learned, which is knowledge. Neither wisdom nor charisma deals with knowledge or skills either. Higher int leads to more skills, so you gained more knowledge in different disciplines.

Intelligence is how fast you can learn - if you're learning your whole life, you'll have learned more with a higher one than a lower one. Additionally, it depends on how you define knowledge - knowing how to climb or swim well, for example, is a more practical knowledge than something like 'this water is deep because X'.

However, there are factors other than Intelligence. An 18 Int fighter is smarter than an 8 Int Rogue, yet the Rogue knows more (has more skills). A level 3 rogue with 12 Int isn't as smart as a level 1 rogue with 18 Int, yes knows more (has more skills). A 16 Intelligence Human Fighter with the feat Open Minded has 29 skill points, whereas an 18 Int Human fighter will have one less.

[Socksy]

To all the people saying INT = 10+(1 for every five IQ points over 100), that would give me (59/5 = just under 12) INT 21 or 22. Is that really realistic??


What if we found the mean/variance/standard deviation of IQ and of 3d6 (or 4d6b3, but my combinatorics sucks) and changed them to normal distributions to compare values? Probably way too much effort, but it seems like the best way to do things.

[Zweisteine]

What if we found the mean/variance/standard deviation of IQ and of 3d6 (or 4d6b3, but my combinatorics sucks) and changed them to normal distributions to compare values? Probably way too much effort, but it seems like the best way to do things.
I tried something like this. It didn't work out at all. The curves don't line up easily at all.

I had one equation that seemed pretty good, but I've forgotten what it was...

[Yanisa]

To all the people saying INT = 10+(1 for every five IQ points over 100), that would give me (59/5 = just under 12) INT 21 or 22. Is that really realistic??


What if we found the mean/variance/standard deviation of IQ and of 3d6 (or 4d6b3, but my combinatorics sucks) and changed them to normal distributions to compare values? Probably way too much effort, but it seems like the best way to do things.

You mean something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17137582&postcount=17), this (http://simantics.blogspot.nl/2011/01/d-and-iq.html) or this (http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/4008/converting-rpg-intelligence-values-into-iq)?

The common trend is that 18 int is roughly ~140 IQ, so your 159 IQ is beyond the normal numbers, off the charts!

Edit: for ranges 3 to 18 int the [5 times Int + 50 = IQ] formula seems to work.
With 3 int being 65 and a bit too high, but 18 int being 140 and that's about right.

So 160 IQ would be int 22.

[captain fubar]

even bonuses (like from every printed item as well as most other sources) offer mechanical benefits.
odd bonuses such as every 4th level allow a gradual growth and offer a small buffer vs ability damage before anything important is impacted.

the players can roll play this however they like there are no rules regarding how much INT it would require to mcgyver your way out of a problem with whatever is on hand, or how much WIS it would take to determine if this overly complex plan you just made is a good idea.

[Socksy]

You mean something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17137582&postcount=17), this (http://simantics.blogspot.nl/2011/01/d-and-iq.html) or this (http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/4008/converting-rpg-intelligence-values-into-iq)?

The common trend is that 18 int is roughly ~140 IQ, so your 159 IQ is beyond the normal numbers, off the charts!

Edit: for ranges 3 to 18 int the [5 times Int + 50 = IQ] formula seems to work.
With 3 int being 65 and a bit too high, but 18 int being 140 and that's about right.

So 160 IQ would be int 22.

Z-scores! The second link is beautiful.