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MeklorIlavator
2007-02-01, 04:43 PM
can a frenzied berserker voluntarily fail a save, to gain the effects of, say calm emotions? This isn't for me, but it is for a friend.

BCOVertigo
2007-02-01, 05:21 PM
I would rule probably not, because it seems to me they can't differentiate friend from foe(at least once all the obvious foes are dead).
I seem to remember a feat from BoED called Righteous Furry or something that lets you recognize friends even in a frenzy. Might be worth looking into.

The_Snark
2007-02-01, 05:29 PM
Righteous Fury is for rages, not frenzies; there is a difference by the rules, and allowing Righteous Fury to work in a frenzy suddenly removes most of the disadvantages.

And no, I'd say you cannot voluntarily fail the save. Frenzied berserkers in a frenzy have no allies; the world is divided into:
1. Enemies, which I need to hit right now.
2. Mobile and living creatures, which I can get to once the enemies are down.
3. Everything else.

oriong
2007-02-01, 05:34 PM
legally, yes he can.

However, a DM would be reasonably within his rights to veto this, after all the frenzier has no idea what spell it or that he SHOULD fail his save, it would be a fairly metagame change.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 06:00 PM
I would rule probably not, because it seems to me they can't differentiate friend from foe(at least once all the obvious foes are dead).
I seem to remember a feat from BoED called Righteous Furry or something that lets you recognize friends even in a frenzy. Might be worth looking into.

"Righteous Furry"? I know Barbarians tend to dress in animal pelts and all, but...

Anyway, the Frenzied Berserker is unable to think clearly and thus would be unable to recognize the helpful effect while in a Frenzy. Effectively, a Frenzied Berserker becomes an NPC, albeit an NPC with a certain list of primary targets.

BCOVertigo
2007-02-01, 06:10 PM
Righteous Fury is for rages, not frenzies; there is a difference by the rules, and allowing Righteous Fury to work in a frenzy suddenly removes most of the disadvantages.

And no, I'd say you cannot voluntarily fail the save. Frenzied berserkers in a frenzy have no allies; the world is divided into:
1. Enemies, which I need to hit right now.
2. Mobile and living creatures, which I can get to once the enemies are down.
3. Everything else.

Eh, that's what I get for being lazy and not looking. Although I'm pretty sure rage doesn't stop you from distinguishing friend from foe... makes me think that it would be an allowable house-rule if you wanted to play a good barbarian. Plus it's really not any more or less advantageous than the normal FB code of conduct, just different(exalted feats require that you not perform evil acts or you lose them). It might be fun to play a barbarian like that, has to keep a tight reign on his emotions or they'll overwhelm him and he goes crazy. Repressed memories maybe? Maybe just teen angst?


"Righteous Furry"? I know Barbarians tend to dress in animal pelts and all, but...

Anyway, the Frenzied Berserker is unable to think clearly and thus would be unable to recognize the helpful effect while in a Frenzy. Effectively, a Frenzied Berserker becomes an NPC, albeit an NPC with a certain list of primary targets.

Pff, I didn't make a typo he's an anthropomorphic wolverine....What??

oriong
2007-02-01, 06:24 PM
"Righteous Furry"? I know Barbarians tend to dress in animal pelts and all, but...

Anyway, the Frenzied Berserker is unable to think clearly and thus would be unable to recognize the helpful effect while in a Frenzy. Effectively, a Frenzied Berserker becomes an NPC, albeit an NPC with a certain list of primary targets.

No, they're nothing like an NPC, they're just a PC with a certian list of forbidden actions.

'Failing a Save' isn't even an action, anymore than 'rolling a save' is. It's not forbidden.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 06:29 PM
No, they're nothing like an NPC, they're just a PC with a certian list of forbidden actions.

'Failing a Save' isn't even an action, anymore than 'rolling a save' is. It's not forbidden.

I didn't mean literally an NPC; I just meant that they're no longer "in control" so to speak.

headwarpage
2007-02-01, 06:33 PM
Maybe by RAW, they could, but I wouldn't allow it as a DM. It sort of defeats the purpose of the class, IMO.

And if I were playing a Frenzied Berserker, I wouldn't voluntarily fail the save anyway. If I did that, I wouldn't get to kill anyone.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-01, 06:34 PM
You can house rule that they can roll a Will Save to "regain control" in critical moments. Like running towards an ally, for example. That's what we used in 2nd edition with the Berzerker template.

daggaz
2007-02-01, 07:35 PM
Wow.. I almost always agree with you Oriong, but you are so DEAD WRONG on this one.

You would totally remove pretty much all risk of being a frenzied berserker on that call. Talk about forgetting the spirit of the law. Not to mention, they are in a frenzy, how do they recognize friends, how do they recognize a good spell? They are insane with rage, and by RAW, they act only on that rage. They attack their enemies, and when those are dead, they attack the nearest target.

The_Snark
2007-02-01, 07:37 PM
Eh, that's what I get for being lazy and not looking. Although I'm pretty sure rage doesn't stop you from distinguishing friend from foe... makes me think that it would be an allowable house-rule if you wanted to play a good barbarian. Plus it's really not any more or less advantageous than the normal FB code of conduct, just different(exalted feats require that you not perform evil acts or you lose them). It might be fun to play a barbarian like that, has to keep a tight reign on his emotions or they'll overwhelm him and he goes crazy. Repressed memories maybe? Maybe just teen angst?

Rage doesn't, no. The Frenzy feature of the frenzied berserker kinda does; you still attack enemies first, but if there are no enemies left, you start hitting anythiing else that moves, or (once there isn't anything left alive) inanimate objects.

Also, wait- Frenzied Berserker code of conduct...?

You can already make a Will save to end the frenzy ahead of time, incidentally.

BCOVertigo
2007-02-01, 07:47 PM
Also, wait- Frenzied Berserker code of conduct...?

Book of Vile Darkness:
And lo, the lord Erythnul spake:
"Thou shalt go forth unto the multiverse and beat stuff to death."
And it was so.

The_Snark
2007-02-01, 07:49 PM
Book of Vile Darkness:
And lo, the lord Erythnul spake:
"Thou shalt go forth unto the multiverse and beat stuff to death."
And it was so.

Touché.

There ought to be a barbarianesque prestige class that involves being possessed by demons to wreak havoc and devastation.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 09:55 PM
Book of Vile Darkness:
And lo, the lord Erythnul spake:
"Thou shalt go forth unto the multiverse and beat stuff to death."
And it was so.

I'm putting that in my signiture :smallsmile: .

Hurlbut
2007-02-01, 10:12 PM
Okay um you guys were talking about Righteous Wrath right? not Righteous Fury?

Person_Man
2007-02-01, 10:26 PM
I allow auto-failed saves when the player volunteers it, and would allow it for a FB as well. Keep in mind that the FB has to make a Will save whenever they're damaged or go into a Frenzy. I don't know about you, but every game day starts with some pointless minion or random animal battles before things get interesting. Wow, you just completely slaughtered that pack of badgers. Good for you. Over the hill is the lich you're hunting. Whoops, out of Frezy aren't you...

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 10:34 PM
Yeah, that's kinda the downside of playing a Frenzied Berserker. That, and the fact that you kill your own friends.

Darkshade
2007-02-01, 10:45 PM
i remember being in a party wit a frenzied berserker.
i was the rogue so i managed to find a place to hide whenever he ran out of enemies but he sure did kill some of the other PCs a few times. waht was really great would be when he was in deathless mode and at like -100 hp and the cleric would try to get to him to heal him but he would try to get to the cleric to dice him into pieces.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 10:49 PM
When I ended up with a frenzied berserker, I dueled him with a spiked chain, making disarm attempts.. eventually I barely won out, and took some damage.

Then he found he miscalculated his will saving throws, and I took nothing.

JaronK
2007-02-01, 10:53 PM
There are plenty of ways around the Frenzy party killing issue... Rightous Wrath is just one. Others include always using a Merciful Weapon (FBs can't use command words in Frenzy, so you can't turn it off), casting Grease (FBs can't pass dex checks in Frenzy, so they can't pass the Balance to get out), using Iron Will, and so forth.

JaronK

oriong
2007-02-01, 11:12 PM
Wow.. I almost always agree with you Oriong, but you are so DEAD WRONG on this one.

You would totally remove pretty much all risk of being a frenzied berserker on that call. Talk about forgetting the spirit of the law. Not to mention, they are in a frenzy, how do they recognize friends, how do they recognize a good spell? They are insane with rage, and by RAW, they act only on that rage. They attack their enemies, and when those are dead, they attack the nearest target.

Well, keep in mind that my point was that it was legal not necessarily a good idea. The 'fail a save' thing has no actual in-game component, you can fail a save versus an effect that the character doesn't even realize is happening, in fact you can auto-fail when your character is unconcious. So, nothing that affects the character actually affects your ability to auto-fail a roll.

and also consider the possibilities if you do say that the frenzier can't autofail because he doesn't know it's friendly or not. Then how would he be the subject of any friendly spell? Almost every beneficial spell allows a saving throw for unwilling targets. Certainly if the Berserker was required to make a saving throw against every healing spell, every buff effect, and so on that the party attempts to use on him you would think the description of the ability would mention it.

I dont' think it completely removes the danger by any means, if nothing else you're out a few useful spells every day and Calm Emotions only lasts concentration up to one round per level. So, unless the battle lasted quite a while (and with a frenzied berserker that's not likely) there's even the possibility that the spell won't last long enough to keep him down. And of course, like others have said, there are plenty of other ways to take down a frenzier.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-01, 11:34 PM
I'm pretty sure he can make Dex checks just fine. He just can't make Balance checks(I wonder if he's allowed to Climb). So I guess you could get an Animated Rope to make a bridge for the Rogue to walk over. Of course, the Berserker would likely just jump over the chasm. :P

I would require him to roll the save as normal for Calm Emotions.

Zincorium
2007-02-01, 11:44 PM
Better answer from the book of exalted deeds: Subduing Strike. And just beat your friends into unconsciousness when the enemies are all gone rather than kill 'em.

The_Snark
2007-02-02, 12:24 AM
Better answer from the book of exalted deeds: Subduing Strike. And just beat your friends into unconsciousness when the enemies are all gone rather than kill 'em.

I'm pretty sure that even a barbarian rage disallows dealing nonlethal damage (barring unarmed strikes and saps, probably), unless you have Righteous Wrath (corrected!). Let alone an insane killing frenzy.

Climb's Strength-based, so they can climb no problem.

Merciful weapon's a good idea too; the merciful ability isn't half bad anyway, unless you're fighting constructs.

oriong
2007-02-02, 12:32 AM
Nope, both a barbarian and a frenzied berserker can strike to subdue. In fact, you don't even want the Subduing Strike feat since you can just take the -4 penalty to inflict subdual damage and have a lower chance of hitting your allies : P

Person_Man
2007-02-02, 12:35 AM
Better answer from the book of exalted deeds: Subduing Strike. And just beat your friends into unconsciousness when the enemies are all gone rather than kill 'em.

Actually, now that I think about it there's nothing preventing the FB from just dropping his weapons and beating his friends with his fists (provoking AoO) or trying to deal subduel damage (taking a -4 to hit). Frenzy requires that you keep attacking. It does't require that you be smart about it. Of course, I wouldn't allow it as a DM. But a good case could be made to allow it (the other players are my best friends, so even if I'm so angry I have to keep trying to kill them, I still have enough restraint to do it with my bare hands).

Darkshade
2007-02-02, 02:12 AM
Actually, now that I think about it there's nothing preventing the FB from just dropping his weapons and beating his friends with his fists (provoking AoO) or trying to deal subduel damage (taking a -4 to hit). Frenzy requires that you keep attacking. It does't require that you be smart about it. Of course, I wouldn't allow it as a DM. But a good case could be made to allow it (the other players are my best friends, so even if I'm so angry I have to keep trying to kill them, I still have enough restraint to do it with my bare hands).
actually if you read the Frenzied Berserker Description...
"During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she percieves as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attach the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potentail foes are quidistant) and fights that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own).

taking it easy to try and subdual or using your hands would be differentiating between her friends and her enemies, an action she is not capable of.

additionally she cannot use and charisma-, dexterity-, or intelligence-based skills (except for intimidate), the concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration...
Many would argue that dealing nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon requires a great deal of concentration, so as not to kill the person you are trying to subdue. You may argue that it says the only feats she cant use are item creation, metamagic, and combat expertise but they just moved that part from the original frenzied berserker and at the time they printed it the subdual feat didn't exist.

Also there is something just silly about claiming your so angry you have to keep trying to kill your friends, but you have enough restraint to do it in a way that you KNOW will fail to kill them.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-02, 02:23 AM
I always found the !balance part of that silly.

Player: "I'm so angry that I can no longer even keep my balance when running across the narrow(less than 1 foot wide) beam to the nearest enemy!"
DM: "You fall, everybody else dies. You die when Frenzy finishes."
Player: "SCORE!"

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-02, 02:31 AM
having played a hobgoblin barbarian/FB in a game before (it was actually one of my favorite characters), I believe the answer is no. Due to the whole being in a rabid state, you're not in a position to be able to do that. But, you can make a will save every round to try and snap out of it however. But then the whole death thing comes into play. What we did to deal with that was have one of the casters have a hold person spell ready. Since it's a will save, and a Barb/FB's weak save is will, it's not hard to get him with the spell. Then you can heal him and he can keep trying to make the will save to snap out of the frenzy while the rest of the party isn't in danger of all dying.

Thomas
2007-02-02, 02:43 AM
Player: "I'm so angry that I can no longer even keep my balance when running across the narrow(less than 1 foot wide) beam to the nearest enemy!"
DM: "You fall, everybody else dies. You die when Frenzy finishes."
Player: "SCORE!"

That's why frenzied berserkers just jump over all obstacles. In fact, you're usually best off ONLY moving by jumping, since it avoids grease. Also, LEAP ATTAAAAACK!

Dervag
2007-02-02, 02:44 AM
FBs can't pass dex checks in Frenzy, so they can't pass the Balance to get outAre you sure? I can't remember.

Zincorium
2007-02-02, 03:58 AM
actually if you read the Frenzied Berserker Description...
"During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she percieves as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attach the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potentail foes are quidistant) and fights that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own).

Thus, I suggest taking the feat and using as your standard attack against both friends and foes, thus removing the problem of wanting to differentiate between the two. Also, I can very easily imagine a frenzied bersker laughing wildly as he beats someone with the hilt of his greatsword.

Darkshade
2007-02-02, 04:18 AM
that comes into the part where i talked about concentration, it takes concentration to hit someone with the less huirty part of your weapons, especially when you are swinging it to and fro like a madman on a murdering spree who is filled with RAGE and FRENZY. it is silly to picture a FB going around using subdual damage, and the class is not meant to be silly!
how about a Ravager who only kills terminally sick people? A blighter who only weakens the plants instead of killing them?that is just silly!

Zincorium
2007-02-02, 05:29 AM
that comes into the part where i talked about concentration, it takes concentration to hit someone with the less huirty part of your weapons, especially when you are swinging it to and fro like a madman on a murdering spree who is filled with RAGE and FRENZY. it is silly to picture a FB going around using subdual damage, and the class is not meant to be silly!
how about a Ravager who only kills terminally sick people? A blighter who only weakens the plants instead of killing them?that is just silly!

Well, that concentration is usually reflected by the -4 penalty, but with subduing strike, you're so used to it that you take no penalty. Heck, you can sneak attack with a blade and it'll still be nonlethal with that feat. In any case, knocking people out violently and with extreme predjudice isn't silly. They're down, they're hurting (badly) and they're not getting up for a while. And the class specifically states that you may use ANY feat other than the specified ones.

And unlike the examples you listed, you are in no way nuetering your effectiveness or denying features of your class. Frenzied berserker doesn't say anywhere in the fluff that you have to kill and wound people, or even that that's the preference.

Blighter and Ravager both require you to be nongood, Frenzied berserker is only nonlawful. A truly good Frenzied berserker would probably take the nonlethal route because they KNOW that they aren't in control of themselves.

And if all else fails, the Merciful enchantment for your weapon is a safe bet, since it requires no activation at all.

Rigeld2
2007-02-02, 06:55 AM
Are you sure? I can't remember.
100% sure that he automatically fails all dexterity related skill checks.

JaronK
2007-02-02, 07:31 AM
Are you sure? I can't remember.

Yes, in fact, he's not even allowed to try. He can't use any Dex, Int, or Chr related skills at all in Frenzy, and that includes balance.

JaronK

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-02, 07:34 AM
I donno, Zincorium, it seems to me that if you were a barbarian, and were concerned about hurting people too much, you might take a different PRC than Frenzied Berserker, in the first place. Not that I can't imagine such a character, but at some point it starts to look like you're trying to avoid the drawbacks of a powerful class

Rigeld2
2007-02-02, 07:39 AM
but at some point it starts to look like you're trying to avoid the drawbacks of a powerful class
This is amusing to me - People have little problem with full progression caster PrCs that give decent abilities with no drawback whatsoever, but the one melee PrC that can get melees close to caster effectiveness, as soon as someone looks for a way to dodge the downside, theres a frowny face over the intarweb.

JaronK
2007-02-02, 07:40 AM
Actually, I think a Vow of Peace FB with a Merciful Weapon would be pretty interesting. Perhaps it's a mighty warrior who wanted to fight for good without killing, channeling his ancestral rage without the bloodshed... kind of interesting.

JaronK

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-02, 08:23 AM
This is amusing to me - People have little problem with full progression caster PrCs that give decent abilities with no drawback whatsoever, but the one melee PrC that can get melees close to caster effectiveness, as soon as someone looks for a way to dodge the downside, theres a frowny face over the intarweb.Sure, casters are pretty broken. So the solution is to find ways to break all the other classes, too? :smallbiggrin: