Changelings and Minor Change Shape

[topfpflanze]

Hello everybody,

just a quick question about the Changelings Minor Change Shape ability. It works just like the Disguise Self spell which gives you:
If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.But if you read further it says under the Minor Change Shape ability:
When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on disguise checks.
Does that mean when using Minor Change Shape you get a +20 on disguise checks? Because why else would they write that extra line, when the ability itself already gives you a +10 bonus?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[mabriss lethe]

I'm about 99.9% sure that the text is there simply as a quick reference for the spell. (I'm AFB, so no real way to research it right now.) I suppose the other reason they may have added it is that it is altering the type of bonus offered by the effect from untyped to circumstance.

A total +20 to the roll seems out of line.

[topfpflanze]

At first I thought so too, but it's just the way it's written that confuses me.

If their aim was to change the bonus type, they could have written "counts as __________ bonus".


If they wanted to say that Minor Shape Change and the Disguise Self or similar spells don't stack they could have written "doesn't stack with __________".

It's just a odd way to word something which can be said in half the words and without causing confusion.
A +20 bonus on Disguise checks is powerful but isn't that what Changelings are supposed to be, indistinguishable? They basically live their whole lives in another form(s) so it kinda makes sense.

And I don't think a +20 is that powerful, except in certain circumstances (chases, espionage, assassinations, infiltrations) or really low levels because later higher level spells kick in (Invisibility, Illusions and all that jazz).
But to be honest I'm quite new to DnD (aka. I never played it just read all the books) so I don't know all the crazy combos or exploits or whatevers you could potentially do with a +20 bonus to Disguise.

[Telonius]

I'd say it's probably not intended to stack. The reference to Disguise Self seems to be dealing only with what physical changes are possible: "You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person."

That's about where the similarities end. It's at-will. It's a supernatural ability, so not subject to dispelling, attacks of opportunity, or spell resistance. It takes a full-round action, not a standard, to do. Unlike the spell, it doesn't affect clothes or equipment. It's an actual change, not an illusion, so interacting with it wouldn't give you a will save.

After having listed the differences, the ability's description says that it gives a +10 circumstance bonus to disguise. It seems to me this placement indicates it would more likely be intended as a replacement bonus, than an additional bonus; though I can certainly see how someone would take the opposite interpretation.

[Vhaidara]

Well, let's look at an example of what you can do...
Level 1 Male Changeling Marshal with an 18 Cha, Motivate Cha (Cha bonus to Cha based checks), 2 ranks in Disguise (Cross-class), a masterwork disguise kit, and Skill Focus(Disguise) has a +35.

You are impersonating the grandmother of an elven hero. That's -2 for gender, -2 for race, and -6 for age category. Total -10. So you have +25, meaning your result is between 26 and 45.

Disguise is opposed by Spot.

This hero is a 21st level fighter (ooh, epic). As a fighter, he lacks the skill points to invest in Spot, and lacked the ability scores to have a decent Wisdom. But we'll be generous and give him a 12 Wis. So that's +3 (+2 from elf and +1 from Wis).

Now, he gets +10 from being intimately familiar with his grandmother (not like that). So that's +13. His check ranges from 14 to 33.

So, if you take 10 (which you can), you have a 35. Guess what? on a natural 20, he has a 33. Congratulations, the 21st level hero cannot recognize that you are not his grandmother. You get an achievement.

[Telonius]

I just got the weirdest image in my head.

"Grandmother, what big teeth you have!"
"You multiclassed into Ranger, didn't you, my dear?"