Why peeps had a problem with roy attacking miko

[Professor Tanhauser]

Ok, I think there are 3 issues some people may have had with roy attacking miko:

1. Gender bias. Some people still have a problem with men using force on a woman even when it's completely justified. In the "Dilbert" comics a female character is frequently hitting male characters, but no one ever hits her back, which I find wrong and makes me look at the guys as weaklings who deserve to be smacked around. Nonetheless, despite decades of "gender equality" cries there's still a deep bias against a man using force on a woman, let alone attacking her. (BTW, dilbert is a comic strip, so I'm not dragging "real world" issues in here. Put down the reprimand stick, sparky. Don't make me hurt you.)

2. Hitting someone when they're down. Ok, a lot of peeps just don't like the idea of hitting someone who's down already, and miko was definitely down when greenhilt attacked. Now personally I'm of two minds on this issue. Some people are so vile and despicable that they deserve to be hit when down. Others, well, they may deserve to be knocked down byt have redeeming traits that make you kind of respect them and not really want to see them hurt more than is justified. Now Miko had definitely gone over the line when she whacked the old man, but she has redeeming traits like courage and valor, and so you can feel something for her and not really want to see her utterly crushed even if she needed to be knocked down a few pegs.

3. Making an all out attack against someone who's unprepared seems ungallant, somehow, and we expect roy to be better than that, specially since he's been getting some treausre type O, exotic style, lately. I think people would have been happier of roy had made a remark about miko's fall, then miko go nuts and attack him, yes that would have had the same effect (Miko vs. roy) without subtley lowering roy to the level of attacking a women like he did, gbut alas, the strip is written.

[TinSoldier]

I can't speak for anyone else but...


Ok, I think there are 3 issues some people may have had with roy attacking miko:

1. Gender bias. Some people still have a problem with men using force on a woman even when it's completely justified. In the "Dilbert" comics a female character is frequently hitting male characters, but no one ever hits her back, which I find wrong and makes me look at the guys as weaklings who deserve to be smacked around. Nonetheless, despite decades of "gender equality" cries there's still a deep bias against a man using force on a woman, let alone attacking her. (BTW, dilbert is a comic strip, so I'm not dragging "real world" issues in here. Put down the reprimand stick, sparky. Don't make me hurt you.)Umm... No? I personally like strong female characters, especially warrior types. That would be entirely inconsistent.


2. Hitting someone when they're down. Ok, a lot of peeps just don't like the idea of hitting someone who's down already, and miko was definitely down when greenhilt attacked. Now personally I'm of two minds on this issue. Some people are so vile and despicable that they deserve to be hit when down. Others, well, they may deserve to be knocked down byt have redeeming traits that make you kind of respect them and not really want to see them hurt more than is justified. Now Miko had definitely gone over the line when she whacked the old man, but she has redeeming traits like courage and valor, and so you can feel something for her and not really want to see her utterly crushed even if she needed to be knocked down a few pegs.That's a good point. On the one hand, I am biased towards Miko because I like her character. On the other hand, like a lot of people have said, we usually expect more of Roy.


3. Making an all out attack against someone who's unprepared seems ungallant, somehow, and we expect roy to be better than that, specially since he's been getting some treausre type O, exotic style, lately. I think people would have been happier of roy had made a remark about miko's fall, then miko go nuts and attack him, yes that would have had the same effect (Miko vs. roy) without subtley lowering roy to the level of attacking a women like he did, gbut alas, the strip is written.Same as #2.

After reading several comments and threads, I don't so much have a problem with Roy attacking. I just think there were better courses of action for him to take.

[BrokenButterfly]

I agree with your third point most of all, I think that would have looked a lot better for Roy. His opportunist strike seemed very out-of-character to me. But even with all of those advantages, Roy still got stunned by Miko, just makes Miko look better!
I tend to feel that there is too much gender bias in combat, the idea of chivalry is apparantly still strong around here. I feel that Roy went OTT, but it made for an exciting duel and a great strip.

[Greatbear]

I have no problem with Roy attacking Miko. Hello? She just killed the lawful ruler of the city and was judged by the gods as breaking the paladin code. Who knows what she would have done next?

She needed taking out.

[Xeticus]

I think you are all forgetting 2 things.

1. Roy REALLY does not like Miko. She was good before and they were theoretically on the same side. But now she has committed an unmistakenly evil act so heinous her gods stripped her of her powers. He can vanquish his nemesis and be justified in doing so.

2. The act itself. She killed a defenseless old man. her own liege lord. In front of his own next of kin. If anyone else in this strip had done so and Roy attacked him I think you all would have felt justified.

Some of you really like Miko and feel that she has been unfairly handled. She's a murderer and she's not even as funny about it as Belkar. Personally I hope Belkar gets unleashed and he and Miko settle things once and for all.

Personally I think it's time Belkar got a new salsa bowl.

[Terraxos]

In reply to #1:

I have no problem with Roy attacking a woman (it would hardly be the first time - Samantha, Sabine, anybody?) - and even if I did, Miko is obviously more than capable of handling herself. She took down (almost) the entire OOTS practically single-handedly in the past. So point #1 doesn't apply to me.

On the other hand, points #2 and #3 pretty much do. I don't like the idea that Roy immediately went to attack Miko, and struck her *first*, without giving her a chance to decide who her enemies are herself. Maybe holding back would have had the exact same result; we'll never know. But even if so, I would have preferred that way - as it would have looked much better if Roy was defending himself from Miko, than if Miko had to defend herself against Roy.

As I've said elsewhere - what Roy did is fully understandable, and I can't blame him for reacting as he did, but it wasn't the most 'Good' choice of action under the circumstances.

[Silverlocke980]

I agree with your third point most of all, I think that would have looked a lot better for Roy. His opportunist strike seemed very out-of-character to me. But even with all of those advantages, Roy still got stunned by Miko, just makes Miko look better!
I tend to feel that there is too much gender bias in combat, the idea of chivalry is apparantly still strong around here. I feel that Roy went OTT, but it made for an exciting duel and a great strip.

Do remember, though, that Miko did manage to beat the entire OotS once... Roy may be figuring he needs that sneak attack.

[Iranon]

1.) You just don't kick a woman in the nads, but that's about the only concession I'd be willing to make in a possible life-or-death situation. No problem with that. Since I wouldn't initiate physical fights without pressing need, I see no need to make any distinction.

2.) I have a problem with that if it is avoidable. In fact, talking her down would have exploited her current state better and might well have prevented the need for bloodshed. She was in a position where maintaining her delusions without being physically attacked would have been difficult. I find his careless callousness unworthy of a man with pretensions of good; not just in this strip. But in the light of the situation, that is a minor gripe.

3.) If you don't give them a chance to surrender, might as well hit them early and hard. If you take them by surprise, you might be able to subdue them rather than being forced to kill them. It's not sporting, but again that hardly matters if there is a life on the line.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I have no problem with Roy attacking Miko. Hello? She just killed the lawful ruler of the city and was judged by the gods as breaking the paladin code. Who knows what she would have done next?

She needed taking out.

Shojo has stated that he is not Lawful.

Nah, I think Miko needed a time-out at that point. Roy acted in a very emotional manner at this point, but Roy isn't exactly the most laid-back kind of guy (he has to deal with Elan and Belkar).

[Lord Zentei]

Ok, I think there are 3 issues some people may have had with roy attacking miko:

1. Gender bias. Some people still have a problem with men using force on a woman even when it's completely justified. In the "Dilbert" comics a female character is frequently hitting male characters, but no one ever hits her back, which I find wrong and makes me look at the guys as weaklings who deserve to be smacked around. Nonetheless, despite decades of "gender equality" cries there's still a deep bias against a man using force on a woman, let alone attacking her. (BTW, dilbert is a comic strip, so I'm not dragging "real world" issues in here. Put down the reprimand stick, sparky. Don't make me hurt you.)

Perhaps, though I have not seen any credible support for the "white knight" theory. I'm a Miko supporter - usually, though not always by any means - and I have little problem with what Roy did.

On Dilbert, I tend to look at that as a parody of just this sort of thing, though.


2. Hitting someone when they're down. Ok, a lot of peeps just don't like the idea of hitting someone who's down already, and miko was definitely down when greenhilt attacked. Now personally I'm of two minds on this issue. Some people are so vile and despicable that they deserve to be hit when down. Others, well, they may deserve to be knocked down byt have redeeming traits that make you kind of respect them and not really want to see them hurt more than is justified. Now Miko had definitely gone over the line when she whacked the old man, but she has redeeming traits like courage and valor, and so you can feel something for her and not really want to see her utterly crushed even if she needed to be knocked down a few pegs.

I do have sympathy for her (even though we would probably not get along were we to meet), but then, I tend to be sympathetic to those who genuinely need it when the chips are down, cantankerous bastard that I am normally. So, there is that.

However, he had little choice in practice. Perhaps in an ideal world he could have done something better, but it's not an ideal world, so too bad, so sad.


3. Making an all out attack against someone who's unprepared seems ungallant, somehow, and we expect roy to be better than that, specially since he's been getting some treausre type O, exotic style, lately. I think people would have been happier of roy had made a remark about miko's fall, then miko go nuts and attack him, yes that would have had the same effect (Miko vs. roy) without subtley lowering roy to the level of attacking a women like he did, gbut alas, the strip is written.

See above on the world not being perfect world. And she is of a higher level than he is, so he is not exactly in a position of overwhelming strength in any case.

[Balathustrius]

Shojo has stated that he is not Lawful.



Not lawful as in alignment; lawful as in "lawfully wedded husband."

[fractal]

1. Roy REALLY does not like Miko. She was good before and they were theoretically on the same side. But now she has committed an unmistakenly evil act so heinous her gods stripped her of her powers. He can vanquish his nemesis and be justified in doing so.
Miko did commit an evil act. It was way out of line, regardless of how deluded and stressed she may have been. That said, she's probably still Good (at least for now).

Roy exchanged a chance to talk her down and redeem her, at a time when they badly need all of the high level characters they can get, for the opportunity to get in the first swing. That seems like a bad trade even if you're neutral (or evil) and don't value redemption for its own sake.

I would have expected better of Roy.

[Kish]

Han shot first! Er...I mean...

Roy's reaction strikes me as pretty typical of him. I would say Roy has nearly as much investment in Miko being evil-whatever-her-alignment as Miko does in Roy being evil-whatever-his-alignment, at this point.

[13_CBS]

Miko did commit an evil act. It was way out of line, regardless of how deluded and stressed she may have been. That said, she's probably still Good (at least for now).

Roy exchanged a chance to talk her down and redeem her, at a time when they badly need all of the high level characters they can get, for the opportunity to get in the first swing. That seems like a bad trade even if you're neutral (or evil) and don't value redemption for its own sake.

I would have expected better of Roy.

He had a chance to talk her down, yes. But consider Roy; is he a diplomat? No. He himself stated that his persuasive abilities were questionable at best. Roy also knows that Miko would never listen to him; she certainly never listened to her lord and master, why would she listen to someone as "evil" as him?

The first swing was necessary because in order to subdue her, he had to smack her down. Talking was out of the question because neither he nor Belkar were capable of doing so.

[Finwe]

The first swing was necessary because in order to subdue her, he had to smack her down. Talking was out of the question because neither he nor Belkar were capable of doing so.


There's another guy in the room, and he's got diplomacy as a class skill, as well as a high charisma skill. And Miko also has much more respect for him than for Roy or Belkar.




Attacking first and then asking questions is not a Good act. It's always either Evil or Neutral (Neutral in this case). Roy's actions are disapointing, but they aren't evil or wrong. They're stupid.

[slayerx]

One thing that kinda gets too me is that i can't help but think about the punishment that Miko already recieved... Her life as a Paladin was everything to her and served with everything she was. The lose of her paladinhood and earning the angry of the gods, to her, must be a fate worse then death (well... except maybe dying before she can atone)... Should Roy understand that? understandably no; i just thought i'd point out MY view point(though i guess then this would be the wrong thread for that =/)...

i think those actions were rather beneath him... i would have expected him to first try to explain to miko where she went wrong (though the use of yelling and insults can understandably be included), allow her to attack first, and THEN take her down


Who knows what she would have done next?
She needed taking out.

Y'know, what annoys me about this is that its a reason for roy's actions which are not the Reasons why roy made his actions. They way i saw it is that Roy's attack on miko was mostly out of his emotional anger, he wasn't thiking at all logically about the situation. He never showed worry over Miko hurting someone else in her confused state, all he was really thinking about was kicking her ass... Essentailly, if you do think she needed to be taken out because she was dangerous and unstable, then it becomes of a case of Roy doing the right, but for the wrong reasons

[neriana]

I have no problem with Roy attacking Miko. I do have a serious problem with what he said to her while attacking her. There are other insults. I've been on the receiving end of men -- and women -- who think I should have no opinions telling me I need to get laid far too often to ever think that kind of garbage is acceptable, ever. I thought Roy had gotten over his sexism when he donned the belt of gender changing, but apparently I was sadly mistaken.

There are also some extremely nasty undercurrents to a man insulting a woman sexually while beating on her. Just a really bad call all around, and one that has made me see Roy as a villain now.

[EntilZha]

I don't have a problem with Roy attacking Miko either. He and Shojo are trying to stave off the END OF THE WORLD in the personage of the Snarl and Miko, with fallacious and erroneous conclusions, kills Shojo in cold blood. Roy's frustration with her is perfectly understandable. In light of the gravity of the situation, his actions were entirely justified. Some posters have objected to the language he used toward her (it's all good, I can see how some might think it's a little over the top), but it's probably a result of being so frustated with her, of having it up to here with her, that caused him to verbally assault her as well.

Miko chided Hinjo for not seeing the Big Picture. It's quite clear that she's the one who failed to see Big Picture.

[Alair]

Attacking first and then asking questions is not a Good act. It's always either Evil or Neutral (Neutral in this case). Roy's actions are disapointing, but they aren't evil or wrong. They're stupid.

Hear, hear.

[Professor Tanhauser]

One issue here, someone compared roy's attack on miko to his knocking sabine's ass out the window way, way back when they fought last time.

Sorry, no comparision there. Sabby had helped kidnap roy's syster and had just attacked roy with the intent of murdering him so she and nale could make out in front of a desecrated altar with his corpse on it.

Then she found out his sword had some nice new properties that actually caused her some problems, and topped it all off by insulting his intelligence and more by implying he'd do it with her just because she offered to let him, after getting her ass stomped.

Now that was technically just a continuation and conclusion of a fight sabine started, you really can't compare roy knocking her out a window to his attack on miko, who had not attacked him, recently.

[Greatbear]

Y'know, what annoys me about this is that its a reason for roy's actions which are not the Reasons why roy made his actions. They way i saw it is that Roy's attack on miko was mostly out of his emotional anger, he wasn't thiking at all logically about the situation. He never showed worry over Miko hurting someone else in her confused state, all he was really thinking about was kicking her ass... Essentailly, if you do think she needed to be taken out because she was dangerous and unstable, then it becomes of a case of Roy doing the right, but for the wrong reasons

I disagree. I think he realized that she had gone around the bend and needing out. She killed the guy who was trying to stave off the end of the world! The fact that he was also furious at her may have been a secondary motivation, but it doesn't negat the other one.

[NecroPaladin]

Ok, I think there are 3 issues some people may have had with roy attacking miko:

1. Gender bias. Some people still have a problem with men using force on a woman even when it's completely justified. In the "Dilbert" comics a female character is frequently hitting male characters, but no one ever hits her back, which I find wrong and makes me look at the guys as weaklings who deserve to be smacked around. Nonetheless, despite decades of "gender equality" cries there's still a deep bias against a man using force on a woman, let alone attacking her. (BTW, dilbert is a comic strip, so I'm not dragging "real world" issues in here. Put down the reprimand stick, sparky. Don't make me hurt you.)



As posted in another thread, I put up a thread with a substantial essay particularly on this issue. I really would like feedback, because I want to see how people react to my analysis. And I do mention, at least briefly, why you're so uncomfortable when the she hits Dilbert.
:smallannoyed:

[Erk]

The only thing I don't like are the taunts roy made.
1) Hinjo was very intentionally taken out of the strip in the first panel. His uncle just died. Roy can see Hinjo is not paying attention to the murderess, and clearly is not going to be useful here.
2) Roy has no clue about Miko's inner turmoil or chance for redemption and can't afford to take chances. She just killed a defenseless man in cold blood, she has defeated Roy's entire party twice, there is an army out the gates, and rather than put her weapons down, she just finished picking up her sword again. That, as has been analogised many times, is like a murderer grabbing for the murder weapon just seconds after killing (well, in fact, it is not like, it is). Furthermore, there is every evidence that despite this, Roy's first two attacks were subdual attempts to bring her around, not kill her. She responded with all-out slashing full damage attacks. She is deadly.

HELLO!? you want him to stop and chat, or give her a hug or something? She just booping chopped an 80 year old man in half!! Her response was to pick her sword right back up!! He has every reason to assume she is going to try to take him on next, and she has already proven she can do it before. It is, frankly, stupid to claim he had any other option. He is not a magic user, a bard, or a rogue with special powers or skills to rely on with an unpredictable, deadly opponent... he is a fighter, and doing anything other than fighting would probably have led to him getting a nice katana through his gut from an opponent he has every reason to think is more than a match for him.

Roy's only regrettable action was to turn this personal. He had every right to stay on the high horse, and I agree with the people in the crowd who are upset by Roy's sexism. I think Miko has set him back onto his misogynist track, and I hope someone clips a certain girdle back onto him soon.



Whew. Sorry. I agree Roy has made some mistakes here. They are all verbal ones. The frequent accusations of this being unfair/stupid/out of character are startin' to annoy me though.

[mockingbyrd7]

In reply to #1:

I have no problem with Roy attacking a woman (it would hardly be the first time - Samantha, Sabine, anybody?) - and even if I did, Miko is obviously more than capable of handling herself. She took down (almost) the entire OOTS practically single-handedly in the past. So point #1 doesn't apply to me.

On the other hand, points #2 and #3 pretty much do. I don't like the idea that Roy immediately went to attack Miko, and struck her *first*, without giving her a chance to decide who her enemies are herself. Maybe holding back would have had the exact same result; we'll never know. But even if so, I would have preferred that way - as it would have looked much better if Roy was defending himself from Miko, than if Miko had to defend herself against Roy.

As I've said elsewhere - what Roy did is fully understandable, and I can't blame him for reacting as he did, but it wasn't the most 'Good' choice of action under the circumstances.

I agree 10000000000000000000000000%.

[fractal]

Okay, I'll revise my opinion. She did pick the sword back up first, that's worth noting. I think Roy would have been doing fine if he had either a. attacked her, demanding surrender, or b. defended himself, perhaps insulting her.

Either of those would have at least forced her to do more of the work on the path to evil, than did attacking like a spiteful assassin, as soon as her guard was lowered. (Yes, I know that wasn't his intent, but it's certainly easy to read it that way from her perspective.)

Miko is famously bad at figuring out or understanding other people's points of view. You'd think that Roy (and Shojo) would have known that by now, and spent time explaining those perspectives, rather than launching sarcastic comments or insults that only serve to blind her further. Speaking is a free action, after all.

[Fineous Orlon]

Attacking first and then asking questions is not a Good act.

You're right, it's a good thing Roy did not do this.

He walks up to her telling her what problem he has with her, wins initiative, and hits her, disarms her, ridicules her new conclusions about why her killing of Shojo is Roy's fault, Miko picks her katana back up while she extends her paranoid rationalization, and the fight is on.

[Erk]

Holy caboodle, I can't believe I didn't notice he disarmed her. So much for the argument that he didn't try to subdue first.

I wonder if that is why he hit her pauldron too... another disarm attempt?

[Learnedguy]

Meh, considering that Roy was an ally to Shojo, it was suspected. Let's take it like this, what would the guards of the king of somewhere done if Miko suddenly proclaimed that he was evil and cut him down?

Exactly, you don't stop to talk feelings and invite to good humoured duels.

(Beside, I think Roy's tauning was just to lower her AC, or whatever that taunt skill does^^)

[Heliomance]

1.) You just don't kick a woman in the nads, but that's about the only concession I'd be willing to make in a possible life-or-death situation.

Women have nads?

[vbushido]

Women have nads?

Yes, but they're deeper in than men's. You have to kick them in the lower abdomen.

-----
If you're a Goth, where were you when we sacked Rome?

[adriankas]

I think people would have been happier of roy had made a remark about miko's fall, then miko go nuts and attack him, yes that would have had the same effect (Miko vs. roy) without subtley lowering roy to the level of attacking a women like he did, gbut alas, the strip is written.

If that happened, people may be happier with roy, but they would sure be more upset with Miko. If Miko simply reverted back to her old insane logic leaping self with absolutely no provocation, everyone would have just assumed she's still the Miko we know and hate.

I think the Giant wants to develop Miko as a character and make her more vulnerable and likeable. Yet he still wanted a confrontation between Miko and Roy to increase the dramatic tension and put Miko on the run, make her really desperate. This way we also are not sure if Miko COULD have been redeemed if Roy had not attacked her, and therefore the Giant keeps us guessing.

Unfortunately, in order to pull that off, he had to make Roy the aggressor and look a bit filthy. But it's still a realistic response in that it's totally plausible and human that Roy just "lost it". That actually makes him a better character.

[Laurellien]

I have to say that I believe Roy was in the right. The insults he made were not out of character, they were rude yes, but i don't see how we should chastise him over a lack of political correctness after Miko has bisected an octogenarian.

To those who say Roy should have calmed her down.
1) Shojo tried to do that, look where it got him.
2) She picked up the murder weapon.
3) When did we last see Miko act rationally?
4) She considers Roy as an associate of Shojo, she would have attacked him anyway.

[Whisper]

Ok, I think there are 3 issues some people may have had with roy attacking miko:

1. Gender bias. Some people still have a problem with men using force on a woman even when it's completely justified. In the "Dilbert" comics a female character is frequently hitting male characters, but no one ever hits her back, which I find wrong and makes me look at the guys as weaklings who deserve to be smacked around. Nonetheless, despite decades of "gender equality" cries there's still a deep bias against a man using force on a woman, let alone attacking her. (BTW, dilbert is a comic strip, so I'm not dragging "real world" issues in here. Put down the reprimand stick, sparky. Don't make me hurt you.)

2. Hitting someone when they're down. Ok, a lot of peeps just don't like the idea of hitting someone who's down already, and miko was definitely down when greenhilt attacked. Now personally I'm of two minds on this issue. Some people are so vile and despicable that they deserve to be hit when down. Others, well, they may deserve to be knocked down byt have redeeming traits that make you kind of respect them and not really want to see them hurt more than is justified. Now Miko had definitely gone over the line when she whacked the old man, but she has redeeming traits like courage and valor, and so you can feel something for her and not really want to see her utterly crushed even if she needed to be knocked down a few pegs.

3. Making an all out attack against someone who's unprepared seems ungallant, somehow, and we expect roy to be better than that, specially since he's been getting some treausre type O, exotic style, lately. I think people would have been happier of roy had made a remark about miko's fall, then miko go nuts and attack him, yes that would have had the same effect (Miko vs. roy) without subtley lowering roy to the level of attacking a women like he did, gbut alas, the strip is written.


1: I don't really think this is an issue. If she was not a warrior then maybe.

2: I agree with this.

3:I agree she was mentally confused but she had picked herself up and regained her sword. Roy did approach with his sword drawn and talked to her making it clear he was attacking. As for the "sexism" I did not feel it was out of place to tell her she needed to get laid. You can find it in many stories, films and real life that if a person is wound tight someone will say they need to get laid or something similar.