Running my first D&D game in a long time...

[Blkmge]

And I want to include my own DMPC as well as fix the Paladin class for my world to make it less of a black hole of suck. So I'm going to 'tweak' it to bring it up to at least T4 or maybe T3 level.

So here's my plan.

Start off on a basic a paladin chassis. Whee!
All class abilities now based off CHA
Skills are now 4+Int
Smite now functions exactly as Ordained Champion except as follows: it applies to all attacks within a given round and applies equally to ranged or melee attacks.
Turn Undead starts at level 1 & Paladins count their full class level for effectiveness.
Paladins count their full class level for spellcasting, starting at level 4.
Divine Health moved to level 4, Divine Grace to level 6


Does that put the class more on the realm of T4? Or still keep it stuck in T5 level?


Edit 2:

Removed bonus feats
Smite mirrors how it works with the Ordained Champion PrC but makes it more useful in combat.
Spells now as standard, although at a higher caster level once able.
Skills changed to 4+Int
Turn no longer scales by level but still starts at level 1.

[docnessuno]

All class abilities now based off CHA
Agree

Free feats
Not a bad idea, but i do see too much stuff in the early levels. Also more freedom of choice would be nice. IE: 1 feat at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 (chosen between combat and divine feats)

Smite is now functions as Divine Might instead but only works with one-handed weapons. Alignment restriction removed.
Why do you hate 2h paladins so much? Also a classic" good paladin smiting good at full effectiveness makes no sense imho. I would suggest you to look into Pathfinder smite evil, its a quite powerful class feature, VERY effective against evil enemies but still somewhat useful against nonevil.

Turning starts at level 1 but only with 1+CHA turn attempts. Turn attempts increase by 1 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. They still count as a cleric half their level when turning undead.
WAY to many turn attempts for a class that is now Cha-focused.

All paladin-list spells are now act is if they are Battle Blessed - standard action cast times reduced to swift action. Paladins also count as a cleric 1/2 their level in determining spells per day and level of spells known, but count their full class level for DC. DC and max spell level are based off Charisma.
Too much. Battle blessing works well as as it is now (a feat tax) to use a secondary class feature at full potential (Druids have Natural spell as well). Also increasing Paladin casting that much won't work well with battle blessing at all, making the class way too strong (well compared to other non-full casters obviously). Either increase casting and get rid of battle blessing completely (even as a feat players could pick) or keep battle blessing and only slightly buff casting (IE: +1 spell / spell level OR using full character level as caster level) As a side note, neither character level, class level or caster level have any effects on spell DCs.

Remove mount, Aura of Good, Remove Disease, Lay On Hands
Humm, why? They don't do that much to balance out all the gains and some of them are the most flavorful and classical paladin traits.

Divine Grace moved to level 4, Divine Health to level 6
I agree that moving divine grace up is good (helps avoiding the classic 2-level dip). Divine health is mostly a flavor trait imho, moreso if gained so late.

Does that put the class more on the realm of T4? Or still keep it stuck in T5 level?
With your unmodified changes i think it would sit into high T3 (half caster class with full BAB, high HD, bonus feats, full armored casting, huge bonus to saves, LOTS of turn attempts to fuel DMM persist and able to cast almost all spells as a swift action? WOW).

[Blkmge]

All class abilities now based off CHA
Agree

Free feats
Not a bad idea, but i do see too much stuff in the early levels. Also more freedom of choice would be nice. IE: 1 feat at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 (chosen between combat and divine feats)

Smite is now functions as Divine Might instead but only works with one-handed weapons. Alignment restriction removed.
Why do you hate 2h paladins so much? Also a classic" good paladin smiting good at full effectiveness makes no sense imho. I would suggest you to look into Pathfinder smite evil, its a quite powerful class feature, VERY effective against evil enemies but still somewhat useful against nonevil.

Turning starts at level 1 but only with 1+CHA turn attempts. Turn attempts increase by 1 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. They still count as a cleric half their level when turning undead.
WAY to many turn attempts for a class that is now Cha-focused.

All paladin-list spells are now act is if they are Battle Blessed - standard action cast times reduced to swift action. Paladins also count as a cleric 1/2 their level in determining spells per day and level of spells known, but count their full class level for DC. DC and max spell level are based off Charisma.
Too much. Battle blessing works well as as it is now (a feat tax) to use a secondary class feature at full potential (Druids have Natural spell as well). Also increasing Paladin casting that much won't work well with battle blessing at all, making the class way too strong (well compared to other non-full casters obviously). Either increase casting and get rid of battle blessing completely (even as a feat players could pick) or keep battle blessing and only slightly buff casting (IE: +1 spell / spell level OR using full character level as caster level) As a side note, neither character level, class level or caster level have any effects on spell DCs.

Remove mount, Aura of Good, Remove Disease, Lay On Hands
Humm, why? They don't do that much to balance out all the gains and some of them are the most flavorful and classical paladin traits.

Divine Grace moved to level 4, Divine Health to level 6
I agree that moving divine grace up is good (helps avoiding the classic 2-level dip). Divine health is mostly a flavor trait imho, moreso if gained so late.

Does that put the class more on the realm of T4? Or still keep it stuck in T5 level?
With your unmodified changes i think it would sit into high T3 (half caster class with full BAB, high HD, bonus feats, full armored casting, huge bonus to saves, LOTS of turn attempts to fuel DMM persist and able to cast almost all spells as a swift action? WOW).
Well, I view the paladin iconically as defenders of the weak and downtrodden as much as paragons of virtue - the feats are there to make sword/board mechanically better for the class without outright destroying their offensive ability.

They only are behind the cleric in terms of turning attempts until level 8, and pull slightly ahead afterwards (essentially free "Extra Turning" - a feat a DMM optimized cleric gets at level 1). The trade off is, they have 2 class features that will be using up their turn attempts on a regular basis.


I can deal with tweaking the spells some - but I don't think it's as big a deal as you think. Only spells that appear on the current paladin list that are standard action can be used as a swift action - any cleric spell NOT on the paladin list has the default cast time. Not to mention, they can only do so many swift actions per turn (1 + standard + move / 1 + full attack) so they aren't entirely breaking the action economy. Unlinking the feat and making it something they can buy at ~ level 6 (require "Divine Shield" as a class feature, ability to cast 2nd level divine spells) wouldn't be too bad though.

[Shinken]

Or you could just play a Pathfinder Paladin, I think.

[Sir Chuckles]

It almost looks like a Favored Soul, but with possibly better melee (Sword/Board may be your view of it, but it might be better to do a less front-loaded, Ranger combat style type deal.)

What was your absolute goal here? Out of T5 and into T4 with the Rogue? Or threatening to strangle the Favored Soul?

[Blkmge]

Or you could just play a Pathfinder Paladin, I think.
Looked at it.. didn't like it.


It almost looks like a Favored Soul, but with possibly better melee (Sword/Board may be your view of it, but it might be better to do a less front-loaded, Ranger combat style type deal.)

What was your absolute goal here? Out of T5 and into T4 with the Rogue? Or threatening to strangle the Favored Soul?
I agree on retrospect.. was trying to match the fighter bonus feat progression but puts a lot into the class too soon. I'll switch it out to closer that of ranger.

Aiming for mid T4-ish. Enough that they'll be able to do more without making them crush his former T5ness.

[Sir Chuckles]

I agree on retrospect.. was trying to match the fighter bonus feat progression but puts a lot into the class too soon. I'll switch it out to closer that of ranger.

Aiming for mid T4-ish. Enough that they'll be able to do more without making them crush his former T5ness.

Take a look at other T4 classes, like the Rogue, Marshal, and, most importantly, Zhentarium Fighter.
Look what pushes each one up a tier over something similar.

Paladin is already upper T5, so something as little as +2 skill points a level and some reigning in of the MAD factors easily makes it T4.

[Blkmge]

Take a look at other T4 classes, like the Rogue, Marshal, and, most importantly, Zhentarium Fighter.
Look what pushes each one up a tier over something similar.

Paladin is already upper T5, so something as little as +2 skill points a level and some reigning in of the MAD factors easily makes it T4.

Hmmm... fixing the MAD is a given, as would fixing how smite works in terms of their in-combat ability.

If giving access to a wider range of spells is so potent, I can keep it to the paladin list, but as a trade off making their class level = caster level (starting at level 4)

[Blkmge]

There, I've taken the collective advice and scaled things back.

Improved smites = more "fun" in combat!
Spellcasting is now on par with a cleric in terms of oomph-per-spell, but the smaller subset of spells makes the cleric still a better buffer.
More skills = more out of combat uses.

The class still doesn't offer much at higher levels, but it isn't as stuffed together at levels 1/2.