Analysis Did Azure city ever have a chance [Archive]

King of Nowhere

2014-03-07, 07:30 PM

I would say that they had a chance against the army, but they never had a chnce against xykon - except because xykon did a colossal mistake that almost costed him anything, namely putting both himself and his phylactery in range of the only enemy character capable of providing a credible treath to him, while he was low on spells.

Face it, even if the azurites destroied the army, there was nothing stopping xykon from blasting a few hundred azurites, teleporting away, resting, and restarting the cycle. with time, xykon could have annihilated the whole azurite population himself.

Oots seems a pretty low-level world: according to the dm manual, a "metropolis" (25000+ inhabitants) is likely to have a dozen npcs of level 17+, enough to pose a serious challenge to xykon together - and most of them would be willing to fight against him. azure city had half a million inhabitants, and as far as we know the highest level character there was miko, at level 16 or 15. shojo only had access to one wizard who would teleport people around. and tsukiko, a 15ish level character, could single-handedly defeat all the mid to high level people who were kept in rreserve at the castle.
So, basically, there wasn't enough high level people there to challenge xykon. except soon, of course, but i have no doubt xxykon could have easily bested him if he had finished off the azurites first, while soon was bound to the throne room, then got redcloak to prepare the right buffs for the battle, maybe got some more from scrolls, and fight on his own terms.

Codyage

2014-03-07, 07:40 PM

Keltest

2014-03-07, 07:43 PM

It was strongly implied that had Miko not blown up the gate, the Ghost Martyrs would have been able to go Minas Tirith on the hobgoblins and wipe them out. It would not have been easy on the defenders, but they would not likely have been crushed like they were. Only Redcloak and Xykon (and probably Tutsiko) could even affect the ghosts.

NerdyKris

2014-03-07, 07:44 PM

You'll note immediately AFTER the general makes that statement, Hinjo points out that he didn't account for undead. It's fair to assume he also didn't account for Xykon or the death knight. Or a general that could summon titanium elementals to breach the walls while they were still outside archer or ballista range. Remember that the wall breach is what allowed the death knight entrance. The death knight then allowed the troops to surge into the courtyard.

Without the elementals, they would not have done as much damage and would have been in range of Azure City's own catapults.

He was guesstimating entirely off of basic troops. He didn't account for regenerating numbers (undead), outsiders (the elementals), or spellcasters. Their divinations were also being blocked, so they wouldn't know anything about the force probably other than general size.

It was strongly implied that had Miko not blown up the gate, the Ghost Martyrs would have been able to go Minas Tirith on the hobgoblins and wipe them out. It would not have been easy on the defenders, but they would not likely have been crushed like they were. Only Redcloak and Xykon (and probably Tutsiko) could even affect the ghosts.

They were all wiped out except for Soon when the gate was destroyed, actually. Soon stated that he would instruct the next person who entered the room where Xykon's phylactery was.

Keltest

2014-03-07, 07:50 PM

They were all wiped out except for Soon when the gate was destroyed, actually. Soon stated that he would instruct the next person who entered the room where Xykon's phylactery was.

Given that the entire premise was based on a hypothetical situation where Miko did not blow up the gate, I don't see how that's relevant. Plus, Soon said that because he was incapable of smashing the phylactery himself due to him not being able to affect non-living (or unliving as the case may be) objects.

unless you mean before the gate was destroyed...

Clistenes

2014-03-07, 07:55 PM

If Miko hadn't destroyed the Sapphire in the throne, allowing Soon to kill Xykon and Redcloak, and if Miko and somebody else had destroyed Xykon's phylactery...then Azure City could maybe have lost the battle, but the Order of the Stick would have won the war. Let them go into hiding, let Vaarsavius and Durkon rest and refresh their spells, and led by Haley they could have killed hundreds or thousands of hobgoblins every day.

Tsukiko staying loyal would have helped a lot too. If allowed to raise dead goblins as wight she could have built an army able to repel the hobos by herself; just kill an hobo, raise it as a wight, command it, order it to kill more hobos and raise them as wights under its control...and voila! the hobos are facing an Army of Doom.

NerdyKris

2014-03-07, 09:23 PM

Given that the entire premise was based on a hypothetical situation where Miko did not blow up the gate, I don't see how that's relevant. Plus, Soon said that because he was incapable of smashing the phylactery himself due to him not being able to affect non-living (or unliving as the case may be) objects.

unless you mean before the gate was destroyed...

Yes, I meant when the gate was destroyed, the spirit paladins were already gone. The destruction of the gate had nothing to do with their removal from battle.

Keltest

2014-03-07, 09:48 PM

Yes, I meant when the gate was destroyed, the spirit paladins were already gone. The destruction of the gate had nothing to do with their removal from battle.

yeah, that changes things a bit. Even so, I think Soon could have done a lot for the battle, morale wise if nothing else. Besides, Xykon and Redcloak would be out of the picture.

factotum

2014-03-08, 02:38 AM

A three-to-one advantage when attacking a heavily fortified position *would* be about even. If you look at the way the battle played out, it was pretty much entirely Redcloak that swung it in the hobgoblin's favour--he summoned the Titanium Elementals that created the breach in the walls, and he created the Death Knight who ripped through the defences of said breach. (The Huecuva and EoFaF really didn't do much, all told--in fact, the latter probably did more damage to his own troops after Belkar got hold of him than he ever did while fighting on their side).

At the point the castle exploded the battle was already lost for the Azurites, I think. The Ghost Martyrs were restricted to the throne room, as far as we can tell, and even if Soon had killed Xykon and Redcloak, the hobgoblins would have been left in control of the rest of Azure City. They might well have been able to mount a rescue operation to recover Redcloak's corpse, and once they did so, a Raise Dead to put him back in the action (plus Xykon regenerating of his own accord from the holy symbol) and they would have had all the time in the world to figure out how to get rid of the Ghost Martyrs and start work on the Gate.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-03-08, 03:02 AM

I suspect they knew very little about and grossly underestimated just how stupidly bs-high level Xykon and Redcloak were. Well, w/ RC it's more the fact that no one even seemed to know he existed at all.

It also didn't help that the OotS handled the battle so poorly. I still can't believe Elan never even tried to inspire courage when he had entire squads (if not the whole army) to provide buffs to. And of course Roy basically suicided early on and Durkon sandbagged like a champ (He should have nearly as many spells per day as V...where were they?).

Also, I wouldn't call it a curbstomb, since both sides lost around 10,000 men.

Uh...Azure City had strong walls and defenses, better knowledge of the battleground and terrain, and early in the battle were inflicting massively disproportionately high losses on the other side.
If the final death count ended anywhere NEAR equal, it was a curbstomp battle. Xykon's army was much larger (not even counting the fact he can just add undead to its ranks from the battle's fallen) and was the attacker, they should've taken noticeably higher losses even if they had won, let alone if they had lost. The fact that it took literally about 2 minutes once RC actually stopped idling around amusing himself w/ hobgoblin deaths the city was taken just further proves how much of a curbstomp it was.

Clistenes

2014-03-08, 04:20 AM

Yes, I meant when the gate was destroyed, the spirit paladins were already gone. The destruction of the gate had nothing to do with their removal from battle.

But Soon stopped fighting Xykon and Redcloak because of the gate, and he disappeared because of its destruction. He had Xykon and Redcloak at his feet, ready to coup-de-grace them and he let them go.

Finagle

2014-03-08, 07:29 AM

In wargame terms (wargames are the root of D&D, and I could see pulling out this sort of rules for a climax like the Battle of Azure City) it was a 3:1 advantage for the attacker. This numeric advantage was equaled by the city's fortifications (triples defender's strength).

One combat resolution table I know uses a roll of 1d6 to determine the result. On the 1:1 odds table: 1/6 chance of defender wins, 1/6 chance of attacker wins, 4/6 chance of an exchange. On an exchange, both sides lose an equal number of men. Since Azure City started with 10,000, these were eliminated and an equal number of hobgoblins were removed as well. This leaves 20,000 hobbos to occupy the now defenseless city.

That's always how it played out in my mind, anyway. Don't know if the author ever went in for this kind of gaming. It works out well, though.

ti'esar

2014-03-08, 07:45 AM

Those casualty ratios are pretty much exactly what happened. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html)

Everyl

2014-03-08, 08:08 AM

As a thought experiment, let's think about what would have happened if Miko had, instead of destroying the Gate, moved to assist Soon in finishing off Redcloak and Xykon.

In this purely-hypothetical scenario, Soon finishes off both Xykon and Redcloak, then has Miko destroy Xykon's phylactery (or at least secure it to make regeneration difficult until a means of overcoming its abjurations becomes available). Tsukiko is the only other mid-to-high level caster known to be working with the hobgoblins, and without Xykon, she has little reason to continue donig so; she probably skips town at the first opportunity. They probably lack any other casters capable of raising Redcloak, so the hobgoblins are left with just rank-and-file soldiers supported by low-level casters.

By this point in the battle, the hobgoblins already had the upper hand. Assuming they don't get any demoralizing revelations about the death/destruction of their leaders, they could still have finished seizing the city. However, without Xykon, Tsukiko, and Redcloak, they aren't in a good position to quell the resistance groups that would pop up, and there would be no epic lich intimidating Azure City's allies out of sending aid in the following days and weeks. The hobgoblins, meanwhile, are a very long way from their homes and any allies they may have there, and likely short on the means they'd need to send for help if there is even any help available for them to receive.

Within a few months, the city would be retaken by humans, and most of that delay would just be giving Azure City's allies time to muster forces. Rebuilding Azure City would be a story in and of itself, as the dangerous politics that plagued Hinjo in the story we saw would have come to a head even faster if it looked like Kubota could have found a way to steal credit for recapturing the city sooner.

As for the OOTS, Durkon would have reunited with Haley and Belkar much sooner, cutting Roy's celestial sojourn short. Roy's celebration would be complicated, however, by the fact that he'd have Miko of all people to thank for finally clearing the Blood Oath from his family.

Overall, it looks to me like each side badly underestimated the other in the battle. Azure City and the OOTS were caught off-guard by nearly everything Redcloak did, while Team Evil was caught so off-guard by the ghost martyrs that they were a matter of seconds from absolute defeat before Miko came along. Basically, Azure City had a chance right up until the most dramatic outcome was for Miko to act like Miko instead of like a sane person.

Oddity222

2014-03-08, 09:05 AM

Well I agree with many previous comments, but people seem forget one thing. What if that one Hobgoblin didn't save Redcloack from that boulder, and the High Priest of the Dark One did die? The Goblins may have had not been able to breach the city wall, Xykon could've be killed by Sapphire Gurard Ghosts and Soon, Xykon might have even had some spell targeted on Redcloak, to inform him in case of goblins death, this could force him into a tactical retreat to secure his phylactery. If Xykon escaped, he would've not recruit Tsukiko, and she would help against the Hobgoblin Army.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-03-08, 09:13 AM

Uh...Azure City had strong walls and defenses, better knowledge of the battleground and terrain, and early in the battle were inflicting massively disproportionately high losses on the other side.
If the final death count ended anywhere NEAR equal, it was a curbstomp battle. Xykon's army was much larger (not even counting the fact he can just add undead to its ranks from the battle's fallen) and was the attacker, they should've taken noticeably higher losses even if they had won, let alone if they had lost. The fact that it took literally about 2 minutes once RC actually stopped idling around amusing himself w/ hobgoblin deaths the city was taken just further proves how much of a curbstomp it was.
I tend to read "curbstomp" in this situation as "slaughter", which the battle was not, at least for the Azurites alone. Sure, the battle went terribly for the Azurites, but they also managed to inflict heavy losses on their enemies and held out for quite a while. As a lot of the advantages were toward Xykon's army, I think that the Azurites did far better than they would have if Redcloak had been using the tactics he demonstrated later on.

Clistenes

2014-03-08, 09:17 AM

As for the OOTS, Durkon would have reunited with Haley and Belkar much sooner, cutting Roy's celestial sojourn short. Roy's celebration would be complicated, however, by the fact that he'd have Miko of all people to thank for finally clearing the Blood Oath from his family.

With Xykon and Redcloak dead, the OotS may very well have stayed in Azure City or close to it, planning to rest, refresh their hit points and spells and sneak into the city to kill goblins.

It would be like the battle against Tarquin's army, but in their own terms. Pop in a place, kill a couple hundred goblins, escape and attack at a different location. They would be daily slaughtering hobos by the thousands. The goblins would probably escape before a week.

davidbofinger

2014-03-08, 10:45 AM

with time, xykon could have annihilated the whole azurite population himself. [...] according to the dm manual, a "metropolis" (25000+ inhabitants) is likely to have a dozen npcs of level 17+

I agree high level characters seem much rarer in OOTS than in the DM Manual. Some of those NPCs, however, were probably with the troops Xykon cunningly bypassed.

Rogar Demonblud

2014-03-08, 11:28 AM

Those NPCs were also probably skewed towards Aristocrats (the folks who split). And they'd get slaughtered by some mid-level browncloaks in a couple rounds.

Kornaki

2014-03-08, 11:33 AM

Those casualty numbers include the post route deaths as well. Most likely before the Azure City troops broke rank the casualties were something like 9000 hobgoblins to 3000 Azurites. When a side is destroyed in detail the vast majority of the casualties come after the battle has ended for the losing side and fleeing forces are being mopped up. It is true that the troops begin fleeing because the battle is lost but a small change in casualty rate, tactics or troop moral would have altered the battle in a significant way at that point.

Morty

2014-03-08, 11:35 AM

I agree high level characters seem much rarer in OOTS than in the DM Manual. Some of those NPCs, however, were probably with the troops Xykon cunningly bypassed.

I think the Giant simply understands the kind of scale a high-level D&D character operates on far better than the people who wrote those tables did.

David Argall

2014-03-08, 11:51 AM

Well, first point is that we are in a story rather than a simulation and since the plot called for a Team Evil victory, nothing would change that. If we correct mistakes by the defenders, something will happen to reach more or less the same final result.

Now if we ignore that, then the obvious point for the defenders is Hinjo doing a bad job as commander.
Looking at the pictures of the troops, we see the defenders start with reserves everywhere. But in later pictures, we see the reserves at the breech are gone, used up presumably, while the other reserves are just standing around. Only too late are some of these idle troops sent to defend the breech. Had they been moved a few minutes earlier, the charge would have been stalled, and would have become a slaughter of the hobgoblins.
The likely problem here was that Hinjo was new at his job, and like many new commanders somewhat afraid of his new duties, so he concentrated on his old duties, of wall section commander, and did a good job at that, but at the expense of his greater duties, such as seeing that reserves were moved quickly to threatened spots. Possibly he had intended to leave such duties to the general, but once the general was killed, these duties fell to Hinjo [and any failure to notify him also falls on his shoulders too].

King of Nowhere

2014-03-08, 03:37 PM

As a thought experiment, let's think about what would have happened if Miko had, instead of destroying the Gate, moved to assist Soon in finishing off Redcloak and Xykon.
As i had pointed out before, xykon going to face soon was pretty much the only realistic was xykon could die. having redcloak in the room too was the only way xykon could not have regenerated.
So I feel a better thought experiment would be what if no one went to the throne room ever. in which case xykon curbstomps everyone.

Well I agree with many previous comments, but people seem forget one thing. What if that one Hobgoblin didn't save Redcloack from that boulder, and the High Priest of the Dark One did die?
Redcloak and xykon were the army main assets. postulating that the first is randomly killed by a catapult while the second (that could easily get a resurrection for him if needed) does the only thing that can get him killed is pretty much a deus ex machina. we may as well assume that all the hobgoblins died of the spanish flu.

I think the Giant simply understands the kind of scale a high-level D&D character operates on far better than the people who wrote those tables did.
dunno, an epic lich trying to take over the world seem pretty much a large scale to me. and i refuse to believe that all those epic guys are so busy that they cannot spare a day and a couple teleport spells to protect a city of half a million inhabitants. or that they would just sit and watch if they were in azure city because "it's beneath them". much more likely there simply aren't any around.
as for the "scale" at which those kind of people operate, it really depends much on the setting. In mine i postulated that simply there weren't enough challenges for high level adventurers and so they sppent most of their time idle, or clearing up the mess that lower level adventurers failed to handle.

Vinyadan

2014-03-08, 04:07 PM

postulating that the first is randomly killed by a catapult while the second (that could easily get a resurrection for him if needed) does the only thing that can get him killed is pretty much a deus ex machina.

Actually, I think that the Azurites were deliberately aiming the commanders. That would explain why they took so much time before they fired: they were looking for them and then aiming at them. Yay headcanon.

It's interesting that, during battle, the two strongest characters of both armies screwed up a lot. Xykon went again orders and almost managed to get himself killed, while Miko consented the goblin occupation of the city, as, with Xykon and likely Redcloak dead, it would have been possible to free it much more quickly.

What made me wonder was the fact that Redcloak insisted in remaining in Azure City to assist founding Gobbotopia. Yes, he likely felt he owed it to the fealty of his soldiers, but this meant that he was putting the Plan on a rest for he while. Had he moved immediately with Xykon, they may have taken control of the Gate. After all, right before he left, his own god had to tell him not to screw things up.

ChristianSt

2014-03-08, 04:12 PM

dunno, an epic lich trying to take over the world seem pretty much a large scale to me. and i refuse to believe that all those epic guys are so busy that they cannot spare a day and a couple teleport spells to protect a city of half a million inhabitants.

How many of those epic guys (if they even exist) know about Xykon and his plans?

Given how hard it is to get intel about Xykon I think that number could actually be zero. And why should others care about a random nation (the Hobgoblins) invading another random nation (Azure City)?

And from what we see I don't think it is given that Azure City had any epics sitting around.

Morty

2014-03-08, 04:21 PM

dunno, an epic lich trying to take over the world seem pretty much a large scale to me. and i refuse to believe that all those epic guys are so busy that they cannot spare a day and a couple teleport spells to protect a city of half a million inhabitants. or that they would just sit and watch if they were in azure city because "it's beneath them". much more likely there simply aren't any around.
as for the "scale" at which those kind of people operate, it really depends much on the setting. In mine i postulated that simply there weren't enough challenges for high level adventurers and so they sppent most of their time idle, or clearing up the mess that lower level adventurers failed to handle.

I don't think you got my point. What I'm saying is, the Giant understands what a level 17 character can do a lot better than the people who wrote those guidelines, and thus he knows that there being several of them in every large enough city is absurd, which is why there aren't any in Azure City.

Giggling Ghast

2014-03-08, 04:30 PM

Had a hobgoblin general never pushed Redloak out of the path of a boulder, then yeah, I think they could have won.

Even if it didn't kill him, Redcloak wouldn't have his epiphany and he would never have stormed the breached wall. He would continue expending the lives of the hobgoblin troops needlessly. And without Redcloak's assistance, Xykon would have fallen in the throne room. Even if the Azure City defenders took heavy losses, the fight would have swung in their favour.

Oddity222

2014-03-08, 05:31 PM

Redcloak and xykon were the army main assets. postulating that the first is randomly killed by a catapult while the second (that could easily get a resurrection for him if needed) does the only thing that can get him killed is pretty much a deus ex machina. we may as well assume that all the hobgoblins died of the spanish flu.

I Don't exactly understand you. I proposed that in case of Redcloack's Death, Xykon would either be killed(at rather hi body destroyed) by Soon, or that he has some emergency spell, targeted on Redcloack to alert him in case the goblin died, and said that Xykon would go to Redcloack corpse to secure his Phylactery. Were he does the only thing that could kill him, in what was I saying? I meant he would leave the battlefield to hide his Phylactery.

Had a hobgoblin general never pushed Redloak out of the path of a boulder, then yeah, I think they could have won.

Even if it didn't kill him, Redcloak wouldn't have his epiphany and he would never have stormed the breached wall. He would continue expending the lives of the hobgoblin troops needlessly. And without Redcloak's assistance, Xykon would have fallen in the throne room. Even if the Azure City defenders took heavy losses, the fight would have swung in their favour.

Indeed, I also agree that without Redcloack's epiphany, the Hobgoblins also wouldn't get into the city. This would also mean that Redclack would continue to get more amoral and cruel, especially towards Hobgoblins. I wonder if Redcloack would just sacrifice all of the hobgoblins, wouldn't the Dark One 'fire' him from his position as his high priest and bearer of the crimson mantle? I mean, he would destroy a large part of The Dark Ones chosen people out petty racism.

NihhusHuotAliro

2014-03-08, 05:38 PM

King of Nowhere

2014-03-08, 07:21 PM

I Don't exactly understand you. I proposed that in case of Redcloack's Death, Xykon would either be killed(at rather hi body destroyed) by Soon, or that he has some emergency spell, targeted on Redcloack to alert him in case the goblin died, and said that Xykon would go to Redcloack corpse to secure his Phylactery. Were he does the only thing that could kill him, in what was I saying? I meant he would leave the battlefield to hide his Phylactery.

Well, you proposed that maybe xykon would be killed by soon. and in that case azure city would win, with xykon and redcoak dead the order is likely able to retrieve the phylactery.

If instead redcloak had died there, but xykon had realized it and flew to safety, then the hobbo army would have lost the battle, most likely, but xykon would have retrieved redcloak's corpse, found a resurrection for him, and started again. and then xykon would curbstomp azure city.

My point overall was that xykon's presence by itself doomed azure city to lose. defeating the hobbos would have been moot if xykon survived. and the only way for xykon to die for good would have been some contrived happenstance, so azure city had very little chance.
the fact that two of those contrieved happenstances almost happened don't mean that azure city was likely to win. they almost got lucky enough. It was like winning the lottery, and azure city got close in the same way that a guy who buy the lottery tiket with the number just after the winning one got close to win.

Rogar Demonblud

2014-03-08, 07:33 PM

Vladier

2014-03-09, 05:19 AM

I think the Giant simply understands the kind of scale a high-level D&D character operates on far better than the people who wrote those tables did.

Hmm, I don't know. I think that the fact that those characters from the tables usually turn out to be court wizards (or wizards who live in an ivory tower in the middle of a square), rulers or shop- and innkeepers is a testament that the writers of the table actually do understand the powers 17th level NPCs possess. Especially considering that an army veteran is supposed to be a 3rd level Warrior.

Vinyadan

2014-03-09, 06:03 AM

Hmm, I don't know. I think that the fact that those characters from the tables usually turn out to be court wizards (or wizards who live in an ivory tower in the middle of a square), rulers or shop- and innkeepers is a testament that the writers of the table actually do understand the powers 17th level NPCs possess. Especially considering that an army veteran is supposed to be a 3rd level Warrior.

Let's say that he knows very well what goes for a story and what doesn't. :smallwink:

Morty

2014-03-09, 11:14 AM

Hmm, I don't know. I think that the fact that those characters from the tables usually turn out to be court wizards (or wizards who live in an ivory tower in the middle of a square), rulers or shop- and innkeepers is a testament that the writers of the table actually do understand the powers 17th level NPCs possess. Especially considering that an army veteran is supposed to be a 3rd level Warrior.

Does the DMG actually suggest that they appear in such roles?

Zmeoaice

2014-03-09, 05:04 PM

Some things which may have changed the victor:
- All he Azurites stay loyal (Tsukiko, the nobles, Miko, and the thief guy)
- Xykon and/or Redcloak do not participate
- Redcloak never has his epiphany
- Roy defeats/delays Xykon longer
- Shojo wasn't killed.
- Titanium elementals were not launched at the walls
- Haley hits Redcloak on the Infernal mammoth

A few towers being destroyed...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html

Technically Miko was still loyal, but she done goofed.

dps

2014-03-10, 12:50 AM

If Miko hadn't fallen, she would have been in the Throne room with the rest of the paladins, and would have likely been a victim of Xykon's symbol of insanity. So she wouldn't have blown up the place, and Soon could have likely killed Xykon and Redcloak. At that point, though, the defenses of the city were already falling apart, so it's not clear that any living Azurite would have entered the throne room to receive Soon's instruction to destroy Redcloak's holy symbol. It's also not clear that anyone would have been able to destroy it; after all, O-Chul later tried to do so and wasn't able to. So I think it becomes a question of whether or not the hobos have any priest capable of raising Redcloak.

David Argall

2014-03-10, 01:17 AM

I think it becomes a question of whether or not the hobos have any priest capable of raising Redcloak.
Easily done. They not only probably do, but any who don the Cloak have a tremendous range of spells ready to cast. So they need merely drag Redcloak's body, and the cloak, out of the throne room, and Redcloak, and X, are back in action.

Nilehus

2014-03-10, 02:29 AM

Easily done. They not only probably do, but any who don the Cloak have a tremendous range of spells ready to cast. So they need merely drag Redcloak's body, and the cloak, out of the throne room, and Redcloak, and X, are back in action.

The only things the Mantle is confirmed to give are an extended lifespan, immunity to disease, and the knowledge of the Gate ritual. Redcloak earned all of his spell levels the old fashioned way.

Everyl

2014-03-10, 02:45 AM

At that point, though, the defenses of the city were already falling apart, so it's not clear that any living Azurite would have entered the throne room to receive Soon's instruction to destroy Redcloak's holy symbol. It's also not clear that anyone would have been able to destroy it; after all, O-Chul later tried to do so and wasn't able to. So I think it becomes a question of whether or not the hobos have any priest capable of raising Redcloak.

O-Chul was still in the throne room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html). His paralysis wouldn't have lasted forever, Soon would have just needed to wait around killing any hobgoblins who tried to recover Redcloak's body. Redcloak and Xykon couldn't stop Soon with their magic, so it's highly unlikely that any of the nameless hobgoblins would have been able to, either. The question then becomes how many hobgoblins are willing to sacrifice themselves in a suicide rush to get Redcloak's body out of Soon's reach, and whether they could organize such a push before O-Chul could move again, both of which are probably unanswerable with the information available.

Oh, and O-Chul wouldn't have needed to destroy the phylactery immediately. Regenerating takes 1d10 days for a lich, so he would have some time to dispose of the phylactery. Also, from what we've seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html), Xykon regenerates his body in pieces, so if his phylactery was in the possession of a hostile (such as a paladin), they could easily re-destroy him before he had enough parts to cast spells. And that's all assuming that O-Chul wouldn't have had better luck with phylactery-breaking using his personal sword, which is sharp and durable enough to cleave stone in Miko's hands, instead of an improvised weapon made of a broken cage-bar.

Easily done. They not only probably do, but any who don the Cloak have a tremendous range of spells ready to cast. So they need merely drag Redcloak's body, and the cloak, out of the throne room, and Redcloak, and X, are back in action.

The audience never sees any other hobgoblins casting significant spells, so assuming that they "probably" have level 9+ clerics in their ranks seems unsafe to me. Also, there's still the problem of getting Redcloak's body and/or the cloak itself out of the reach of the effectively-invulnerable epic paladin who haunts the throne room. I'm sure they could work out a plan to do that sooner or later, but that's precious minutes spent giving O-chul more time to recover and complicate those plans.

MagicalMeat

2014-03-10, 03:18 AM

People seem to forget that Soon wouldn't go away after he killed Redcloak and Xykon; he would still be there as long as the Gate existed. I honestly can't see the Hobgoblins ever taking the throne room without R and X. If an epic level Lich and a near epic Cleric can't defeat Soon, I don't think anybody in the Hobgoblin army can, especially considering that Soon is incorporeal, meaning only the Clerics would even have a chance to do anything.

Maybe if the Goblins were feeling especially suicidal, which is unlikely without Redcloak's leadership, they could send in 1000 soldiers to get Redcloak. But this is a moot point, because O-chul was in there. Soon would probably instruct him to destroy the Phylatory and mutilate Redcloak's corpse to prevent Resurrection.

In short, had Miko not broken the Gate, Xykon and Redcloak would be permanently dead. Which is why Miko destroyed the Gate; the story would have been dreadfully boring had she not.

hamishspence

2014-03-10, 03:22 AM

Easily done. They not only probably do, but any who don the Cloak have a tremendous range of spells ready to cast.

Where's that come from? I don't recall it granting "a tremendous range of spells" in SoD.

EDIT: I didn't notice that this was already said:

The only things the Mantle is confirmed to give are an extended lifespan, immunity to disease, and the knowledge of the Gate ritual. Redcloak earned all of his spell levels the old fashioned way.

factotum

2014-03-10, 08:01 AM

O-Chul was still in the throne room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html). His paralysis wouldn't have lasted forever

Actually, it would. If you fail the initial save then lich paralysis is permanent unless dispelled. He was only able to break the paralysis without assistance in #661 because Xykon used a standard Hold Person spell rather than his lich ability.

jidasfire

2014-03-10, 08:41 AM

I recall the implication of some of the commentary in War and XP's was that Azure City, by all rights, should have won that fight. Between the various preparations and resources they had at the start, and their Ghost Martyr ace in the hole, they should have been able to defeat even the formidable force arrayed against them by Xykon and Redcloak. What got them was that the society was pretty far from its own ideals.

If, for example, the paladins weren't so hidebound as to flat out ignore data on the destroyed Gates, they might have seen Xykon's threat coming and been able to prepare better. And had the paladins of the past not engaged in ethnic cleansing of goblinoid cities and villages, Redcloak himself would not have so bitterly opposed them, nor would he have so easily been able to whip his followers into a bloody frenzy against them. Had Shojo himself not decided that playing senile was the best way to get what he wanted, he might have been able to earn the trust of the paladins and steer them towards his goals and again left the city better prepared for the coming of the major threat instead of basically getting caught with their pants down. Had the nobles not been a pack of petty, scheming vipers led by the vile Kubota, they might have used their own not-inconsiderable resources to help turn the tide in the main battle. And of course, had Miko not gone crazy and murdered Shojo himself, he might have been able to lead the city more effectively than Hinjo, and Miko might have led the Sapphire Guard into battle and turned the tide against major foes like Redcloak or the Death Knight, to say nothing of her not destroying the Gate itself at the worst possible moment.

So ultimately, I would say the city was doomed, but not by any one thing. It was a death of a thousand cuts, numerous failings by virtually everyone that turned what might have been a costly victory into a crushing defeat. And while the Azurites are probably the most egregious example, a major theme of the story seems to involve how the mistakes of the past often perpetuate the horrors of the present.

Rogar Demonblud

2014-03-10, 11:19 AM

factotum

2014-03-10, 11:32 AM

One other point to consider--RC getting croaked in the throne room means the Azurites get their hands on the Crimson Mantle, and probably destroy it at the same time as the phylactery.

Only if there are any Azurites left to get their hands on it, which, as already mentioned, seems an unlikely prospect even if the castle had never exploded.

jidasfire

2014-03-10, 11:55 AM

If Shojo hadn't faked senility, he would've been assassinated years ago. Eventually, the ninjas would've gotten through.

Other than that quibble, I agree with your analysis.

One other point to consider--RC getting croaked in the throne room means the Azurites get their hands on the Crimson Mantle, and probably destroy it at the same time as the phylactery.

I'm not saying Shojo was flat out wrong to fake senility, exactly. He had fair enough reasons considering the nobles were out to get him, and the only way to stop them would likely have involved either a civil war or at best turning the country into a dictatorship. But in the end, it still ensured he would never be able to have the trust of the paladins, because they couldn't go along with his lies under any circumstance. Right or wrong, it still worked against the city.

Kish

2014-03-10, 12:08 PM

If Shojo hadn't faked senility, he would've been assassinated years ago. Eventually, the ninjas would've gotten through.
Interesting claim; in your theory, does every ruler in the OotS world who doesn't fake senility eventually fall to assassins, or is Azure City just that much more violent than any other society?

NihhusHuotAliro

2014-03-10, 01:12 PM

I only counted 109 deaths on the Azurite side.

I counted 82 deaths on the Hobgoblin/zombie side, not counting piles of bodies which I didn't count because many bodies obscured from view.

Keltest

2014-03-10, 01:18 PM

Interesting claim; in your theory, does every ruler in the OotS world who doesn't fake senility eventually fall to assassins, or is Azure City just that much more violent than any other society?

By Shojo's own claim, Azure City seems significantly more corrupt than, say, Cliffport, outside of the Sapphire Guard. At the very least we have seen that there is at least one noble who is willing to assassinate people to become ruler.

Shale

2014-03-10, 01:31 PM

Shojo seemed to believe that any of the nobles might be willing to have him ninjaed to death, which is why he played them off against each other instead of simply taking sides against whoever was so angry about Meatloaf Day.

(Also, the King of Nowhere's life expectancy doesn't seem great either)

King of Nowhere

2014-03-10, 02:24 PM

shojo already narrowly escaped death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) over something pretty ridiculous, so I would say that yes, azure city nobles are just worse than others when it comes to assassinate people

David Argall

2014-03-10, 03:00 PM

The only things the Mantle is confirmed to give are an extended lifespan, immunity to disease, and the knowledge of the Gate ritual. Redcloak earned all of his spell levels the old fashioned way.

[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html"]
The audience never sees any other hobgoblins casting significant spells, so assuming that they "probably" have level 9+ clerics in their ranks seems unsafe to me. Also, there's still the problem of getting Redcloak's body and/or the cloak itself out of the reach of the effectively-invulnerable epic paladin who haunts the throne room. I'm sure they could work out a plan to do that sooner or later, but that's precious minutes spent giving O-chul more time to recover and complicate those plans.
Both of these suffer from a fallacy we might call "never did it before, so can't do it". It is often correct, but we can still easily identify it as a fallacy since every power was, at some point, "never used before", and should have been impossible under this reasoning. So we can not say that just because a power has not been demonstrated before, it can't be done. A lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
Now it is definitely better to have positive evidence, and that we do have. In the case of the Cloak, we have Start of Darkness, where we 1st see Redcloak, when he is being honored and later being treated as a low level, quite possibly 1st level. He is perhaps a college grad, who likely can only cast 1st level spells. Yet after he puts on the Cloak, he casually casts high level spells. There presumably is a limit on how many spells the Cloak bestows, but the presumption has to be that Raise Dead is an available spell.
Similarly, the fact we see no high level caster among the goblins is not proof there are none. We do know there are a number of divine casters, able to cast create undead, and various cure spells. It is rather a fine line to walk if we want to say some spells are common, but those just a little stronger are out of the question. The D&D rules for how common high level casters are are rather defective, but they too say that goblin casters of the needed level are, if not common, at least present in high enough number.
So both of these "expansions" are in line with the text, and we should assume they are correct.

veti

2014-03-10, 03:33 PM

It depends what you mean by "a chance".

Is there a plausible plotline that shows Azure City winning the battle? Hell yes, dozens of them. If Miko hadn't gone off the rails - or alternatively, if she'd swung her katana a few inches to the left (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) - if the hobgoblin hadn't pushed Redcloak out of the way of the catapult - if Hinjo hadn't been a hopelessly inexperienced and inept commander - if the nobles (and their ninjas) had stayed for the fight - if Elan had made a better speech - and most especially, if Redcloak had been five minutes later getting to the throne room. This last in particular could have happened in so many ways.

In fact, the string of coincidences that leads to Redcloak's victory is so far-fetched that I, for one, think the Twelve Gods - for some obscure reasons of their own - actually wanted Azure City to fall.

And that's the real reason why it didn't have a chance. The story required it to fall. Azure City was targeted, and struck, not just by 30,000 hobgoblins, but more importantly by several tons of Enriched Narrativium.

Oddity222

2014-03-10, 04:39 PM

Well, you proposed that maybe xykon would be killed by soon. and in that case azure city would win, with xykon and redcoak dead the order is likely able to retrieve the phylactery.

If instead redcloak had died there, but xykon had realized it and flew to safety, then the hobbo army would have lost the battle, most likely, but xykon would have retrieved redcloak's corpse, found a resurrection for him, and started again. and then xykon would curbstomp azure city.

My point overall was that xykon's presence by itself doomed azure city to lose. defeating the hobbos would have been moot if xykon survived. and the only way for xykon to die for good would have been some contrived happenstance, so azure city had very little chance.
the fact that two of those contrieved happenstances almost happened don't mean that azure city was likely to win. they almost got lucky enough. It was like winning the lottery, and azure city got close in the same way that a guy who buy the lottery tiket with the number just after the winning one got close to win.

Technically, if Xykon got 'killed' by Soon, his spirit just would've retreated to Redcloak's unholy symbol. A delay, as we've seen, but not much of one. Even if Redcloak got squished as well, I'm not certain this would help, as no one on AC's side, including the Order, knew what the phylactery was until Soon Kim spotted it.

Guys, I understand you like Xykon, and I agree he's extremely powerful, but he isn't invincible, as we seen when Soon kicked his bony ass, or Roy comically destroyed his body. He's intelligent, but in a savant like way, that makes him seemingly unable to plan ahead to much. And I think if he would return with rezzed Redcloack, he wouldn't just win instantly. The Hobgoblin army was a GIGANTIC asset for team evil, and Azure city and OOTS would have time to regroup, and get a new plan, maybe even getting Soon's ghost to somehow help defend the city. Xykon Phylactery could also get lost after Redcloack death, seeing how Xykon has a lots of anti-scrying protection on it, and I doubt If Xykon would be so eager to fight unprotected.

Anarion

2014-03-10, 04:59 PM

Technically, if Xykon got 'killed' by Soon, his spirit just would've retreated to Redcloak's unholy symbol. A delay, as we've seen, but not much of one. Even if Redcloak got squished as well, I'm not certain this would help, as no one on AC's side, including the Order, knew what the phylactery was until Soon Kim spotted it.

Eugene had told the Order about the phylactery at that point. If the battle was won enough that the full Order could stick around (no pun intended), they would have been able to venture out into the field and retrieve the phyla trey from Redcloak, had he died.

If Miko hadn't fallen, she would have been in the Throne room with the rest of the paladins, and would have likely been a victim of Xykon's symbol of insanity. So she wouldn't have blown up the place, and Soon could have likely killed Xykon and Redcloak. At that point, though, the defenses of the city were already falling apart, so it's not clear that any living Azurite would have entered the throne room to receive Soon's instruction to destroy Redcloak's holy symbol. It's also not clear that anyone would have been able to destroy it; after all, O-Chul later tried to do so and wasn't able to. So I think it becomes a question of whether or not the hobos have any priest capable of raising Redcloak.

Actually, Miko probably would not have died, and might well have succeeded in destroying the sapphire before Soon ever materialized. After all, O-Chul was trying to do that and was apparently unaware of Soon Kim, and Miko is much faster than O-Chul. Of course, Xykon might have just blasted them both, in which case Soon actually would have defeated Xykon most likely.

Also, everyone has left out the Monster in the Darkness. After a day or two, he might have wandered into the city to try and find Xykon and Co, or perhaps run into anyone trying to find the phylactery out in the field.

King of Nowhere

2014-03-10, 05:08 PM

Guys, I understand you like Xykon, and I agree he's extremely powerful, but he isn't invincible, as we seen when Soon kicked his bony ass, or Roy comically destroyed his body. He's intelligent, but in a savant like way, that makes him seemingly unable to plan ahead to much. And I think if he would return with rezzed Redcloack, he wouldn't just win instantly. The Hobgoblin army was a GIGANTIC asset for team evil, and Azure city and OOTS would have time to regroup, and get a new plan, maybe even getting Soon's ghost to somehow help defend the city. Xykon Phylactery could also get lost after Redcloack death, seeing how Xykon has a lots of anti-scrying protection on it, and I doubt If Xykon would be so eager to fight unprotected.
Dude, i completely dislike the kind of power an epic level can reach, I find it utterly ridiculously breaking my suspension of disbelief, and I'd rather they never released the epic rules.
but they did, and xykon's power is a fact.
xykon was going to lose to soon only because
1) he went in already low on spells
2) he lost rounds killing the lesser paldins
3) he was ignoring a few facts and was using terrible tactics
4) he remained in the room when he should have fled

barring losing to soon, xykon only need to teleport in, kill a few people, teleport out, rest, repeat. there is absolutely NO WAY they can stop him. if they destroy him, he only need to regenerate, with redcloak in a safe faraway place.
Unless someone can persuade me otherwise with a convincing mechanism that will get xykon destroyed. one that did NOT require both him and redcloak low on spells going together to face soon and not having the good sense to leave until it's too late.

EDIT:

Actually, Miko probably would not have died, and might well have succeeded in destroying the sapphire before Soon ever materialized. After all, O-Chul was trying to do that and was apparently unaware of Soon Kim, and Miko is much faster than O-Chul. Of course, Xykon might have just blasted them both, in which case Soon actually would have defeated Xykon most likely.

Good point. but, miko being quite hard to killl, xykon blasting her from afar probably wouldn't have killed her in one round, and she would have had the time to destroy the gate.

MagicalMeat

2014-03-10, 05:56 PM

An interesting point has been brought up: What would happen had Mike kraaaaakooom-ed the Gate when she killed Shojo?

I'm assuming it would have killed a lot of people, the only people in the throne room that could possibly survive it being Durkon, Roy, Haley, Miko (she hadn't quite fallen yet) and maaaaaybe Hinjo and Belkar. Elan and V are far too fragile to survive it normally, but maybe Dashing Swordsman gives something weird bonus to survive impossible odds, and maybe V had a weird spell to help survive it.

Regardless of what happens to the good guys, would Team Evil attack anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if they sent the Hobgoblin army in anyway, as they have no real use for the other two Gates.

One an unrelated note, I see people suggesting that Xykon could employ hit-and-run tactics. See, that pretty much goes against everything we know of Xykon right now. Xykon is not an optimized Lich, he's a lazy, crazy genius that dislikes tactics. Xykon would either keep assaulting anyway and win through brute force, flee and not return, or get pounded into dust.

One last thing: Please don't state that "This wouldn't happen because story conventions demand it so." That kinda defeats the purpose of this thread.

Rogar Demonblud

2014-03-10, 07:22 PM

Eugene had told the Order about the phylactery at that point. If the battle was won enough that the full Order could stick around (no pun intended), they would have been able to venture out into the field and retrieve the phylactery from Redcloak, had he died.

They knew he had a phylactery, not what it was. Kind of puts a crimp on the search plan. Also, once the regeneration starts, Xykon may not need to be in close proximity to the unholy symbol, in which case he can teleport out as soon as he has enough of a jaw to cast the spell.

Liches are annoyingly hard to put down for good.

BenjCano

2014-03-10, 08:06 PM

At one point in the preparations for the Battle of Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html), the Azure City general states they have a roughly even fight. Considering the curbstomp the Azurites suffered, was he correct?

Some things which may have changed the victor:
- All he Azurites stay loyal (Tsukiko, the nobles, Miko, and the thief guy)
- Xykon and/or Redcloak do not participate
- Redcloak never has his epiphany
- Roy defeats/delays Xykon longer
- Shojo wasn't killed.
- Titanium elementals were not launched at the walls
- Haley hits Redcloak on the Infernal mammoth

I didn't put the destruction of the gate here, as Team Evil had already won by that point.

Edit: added a few more possibilities to consider. Do keep in mind that these are all factors; feel free to mix and match them in your discussions.

So what you're saying is that if the battle had been different, it might have turned out differently? Seems legit. :smallamused:

Seriously, Azure City never stood a chance, because it was fated (plotted by the Giant) to fall.

King of Nowhere

2014-03-10, 08:16 PM

One an unrelated note, I see people suggesting that Xykon could employ hit-and-run tactics. See, that pretty much goes against everything we know of Xykon right now. Xykon is not an optimized Lich, he's a lazy, crazy genius that dislikes tactics. Xykon would either keep assaulting anyway and win through brute force, flee and not return, or get pounded into dust.

Good point. On the other hand, xykon is also extremely ruthless. He has a goal, he get it, whatever it takes. he fought a wizard more powerful than him to steal a nonmagical trinket because it looked cool. he gave up his flesh to become a lich. he decyphered a diary, and we all know how boring he find to do mental activity.
Surely he would also be willing to use hit and run tactics, if he really, really had to.

But I agree that he would try basically everything else first. in fact, the first thing he tried was direct assault. Which was the only way he could have seriously got killed.
Well, let's say that if he managed to escape soon, but the gate survived, and the army was destroyed, then he would have probably resorted to hit and run tactics. Or maybe he would have looked for another gate. But if azure city was the last gate, he had no army and could not get one cause all npc humanoid races got extinct, and soon rebuffed him in the throne room... THEN he would resort to hit and run :smallbiggrin:.

veti

2014-03-10, 08:25 PM

But if azure city was the last gate, he had no army and could not get one cause all npc humanoid races got extinct, and soon rebuffed him in the throne room... THEN he would resort to hit and run :smallbiggrin:.

Why would Soon recast Xykon's defensive spells? (Sorry.)

I'd just like to put in a mention about Roy's performance. Whatever may have turned the tide of the battle, Roy "delaying Xykon further" wouldn't be it.

In fact, Roy very likely saved Xykon's bony backside by delaying him as much as he did. If Xykon had reached the throne room ten rounds earlier, Soon would have had that much more time to beat up on him before the cavalry (in the form of Miko) arrived to save him.

BenjCano

2014-03-10, 08:28 PM

But I agree that he would try basically everything else first. in fact, the first thing he tried was direct assault.

No, the first thing he tried was stealth infiltration coupled with misdirection. When he got to the throne room, he was all about divide and conquer rather than brute force. He's willing to use sophisticated strategy when he has to. He also talked with O-Chuk about how he could have flown above melee with fire and lightning, but the bouncy ball was more fun. People who underestimate Xykon's ability to fight tactically usually don't live to regret it.

Rakoa

2014-03-10, 09:48 PM

No, the first thing he tried was stealth infiltration coupled with misdirection. When he got to the throne room, he was all about divide and conquer rather than brute force. He's willing to use sophisticated strategy when he has to. He also talked with O-Chuk about how he could have flown above melee with fire and lightning, but the bouncy ball was more fun. People who underestimate Xykon's ability to fight tactically usually don't live to regret it.

The misdirection was Redcloak's idea. And your last example shows that...he could have been tactical but actively decided not to? Not the best example.

BenjCano

2014-03-10, 10:30 PM

And your last example shows that...he could have been tactical but actively decided not to? Not the best example.

You can't deliberately decide against a course of action if you don't consider it in the first place. Sussing out possibilities is part of tactical thinking.

veti

2014-03-10, 11:40 PM

You can't deliberately decide against a course of action if you don't consider it in the first place. Sussing out possibilities is part of tactical thinking.

So... your argument is that Xykon didn't even "consider" fighting tactically? And this is supposed to bolster his credentials as an unsung tactical genius... how exactly?

BenjCano

2014-03-11, 12:14 AM

So... your argument is that Xykon didn't even "consider" fighting tactically? And this is supposed to bolster his credentials as an unsung tactical genius... how exactly?

Hyperbole is hyperbolic. My point is, to paraphrase Xylon, don't confuse choosing not to with being unable to.

oppyu

2014-03-11, 01:43 AM

Where did the idea that Hinjo was a hopeless and inexperienced commander come from? He certainly seemed to know what he was doing, and there was no evidence to suggest that any of the other characters disagreed with his decisions. With how long Shojo had been pretending to be crazy, Hinjo had likely been taking over a lot of his duties anyway judging by how comfortable Azure City felt immediately handing him the reins. In fact, the Giant commented on how Daimyo Kubota was trying to assassinate Hinjo specifically because he was concerned about how effective Hinjo would be at controlling his nobles.

David Argall

2014-03-11, 02:31 AM

Where did the idea that Hinjo was a hopeless and inexperienced commander come from?
Directly from text. Hinjo did not re-enforce the point under attack [at least not in time or adequately], while leaving large number of troops idle.
Hopeless is debatable, and he might have become a good commander in time, but he had been in charge for about 24 hours at this point, so he was clearly inexperienced.

factotum

2014-03-11, 02:50 AM

I'm assuming it would have killed a lot of people, the only people in the throne room that could possibly survive it being Durkon, Roy, Haley, Miko (she hadn't quite fallen yet) and maaaaaybe Hinjo and Belkar. Elan and V are far too fragile to survive it normally, but maybe Dashing Swordsman gives something weird bonus to survive impossible odds, and maybe V had a weird spell to help survive it.

Except, half of those people weren't actually in the throne room at the time. We don't know where Haley, Durkon, Elan and V were--they might not even have been in the castle, much less anywhere near the throne room.

As for whether Team Evil would still attack, that would depend on them knowing that the Gate had been destroyed--since they weren't anywhere nearby to hear the Krakaakkoom it's possible they wouldn't realise, especially since they didn't actually know where the Gate was (they had to scry Miko to find that out).

oppyu

2014-03-11, 03:32 AM

Directly from text. Hinjo did not re-enforce the point under attack [at least not in time or adequately], while leaving large number of troops idle.
Hopeless is debatable, and he might have become a good commander in time, but he had been in charge for about 24 hours at this point, so he was clearly inexperienced.
Eh, he was outmanoeuvred. Most conflicts generally end that way; it doesn't mean that every losing general anywhere was incompetent. Hinjo clearly recognised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) that the breach had suddenly become the focal point of attack, so he wasn't leaving the troops idle. Could anyone have predicted beforehand that the opposing army would completely abandon all other points of attack to run headfirst at one spot in the wall? He mounted a competent defence that successfully repelled several threats and mobilised an actual defence despite being taken by surprise by an horde that was triple the size of his army and bypassed several defensive checkpoints. Add in morale issues and being severely outmatched level-wise, Hinjo did remarkably well to hold out that long. The only people who criticised Hinjo's leadership at all were the douchey nobles who thought they needed to negotiate with the undead abomination.

As for inexperienced, who do you think was handling military matters while Shojo was petting his cat? Hinjo was clearly being groomed to take over for a while, it's not like they threw a random mook into the leadership position.

MagicalMeat

2014-03-11, 03:34 AM

Except, half of those people weren't actually in the throne room at the time. We don't know where Haley, Durkon, Elan and V were--they might not even have been in the castle, much less anywhere near the throne room.

Well I feel foolish. We don't know where V was, although the library is a good guess, and Durkon is a complete crapshoot. Elan, Haley and O-Chul had left no more than 5 minutes prior to Shojo's death and our hypothetical explosion, so them still being in the castle is a safe bet.

So in suppose now it's even more likely for the Order to survive the explosion. But what Team Evil would do is the question. We know that due to the Oracle's prophesy that they will go to Girard's Gate next, but would they teleport there immediately or curbstomp the Azurites. But then that brings the question if the Azurites would even stick around to fight with the Gate being destroyed. I think I'll just stop before I get lost in the rabbit hole.

Emanick

2014-03-11, 05:10 AM

Eh, he was outmanoeuvred. Most conflicts generally end that way; it doesn't mean that every losing general anywhere was incompetent. Hinjo clearly recognised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) that the breach had suddenly become the focal point of attack, so he wasn't leaving the troops idle. Could anyone have predicted beforehand that the opposing army would completely abandon all other points of attack to run headfirst at one spot in the wall? He mounted a competent defence that successfully repelled several threats and mobilised an actual defence despite being taken by surprise by an horde that was triple the size of his army and bypassed several defensive checkpoints. Add in morale issues and being severely outmatched level-wise, Hinjo did remarkably well to hold out that long. The only people who criticised Hinjo's leadership at all were the douchey nobles who thought they needed to negotiate with the undead abomination.

As for inexperienced, who do you think was handling military matters while Shojo was petting his cat? Hinjo was clearly being groomed to take over for a while, it's not like they threw a random mook into the leadership position.

For what it's worth, Rich describes Hinjo as "a passable commander" in the commentary of WaX. To the author, then, at least, he's neither the epic failure many people here seem to see him as nor a particularly savvy strategist.

David Argall

2014-03-11, 11:53 AM

Eh, he was outmanoeuvred. Most conflicts generally end that way; it doesn't mean that every losing general anywhere was incompetent.
A lot of them were, as were a lot of the winners.

Hinjo clearly recognised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) that the breach had suddenly become the focal point of attack, so he wasn't leaving the troops idle.
This recognition comes only after the breach had fallen when it was too late. The reserves died in place, never even getting close to the breach.

Could anyone have predicted beforehand that the opposing army would completely abandon all other points of attack to run headfirst at one spot in the wall?
Yup. Easily predicted in fact. One just needs a little paranoia. The breach was running low on reserves and idle reserves were easily available. One just assumes the enemy was going to attack the weak point.

He mounted a competent defence that successfully repelled several threats and mobilised an actual defence despite being taken by surprise by an horde that was triple the size of his army and bypassed several defensive checkpoints.
How much of that was his actual doing, and how much was the system just running on automatic is debatable, and happens off-camera. We do have an old general who apparently been running the army for a long time and would be quite able to have done all this with Hinjo just not getting in the way.

As for inexperienced, who do you think was handling military matters while Shojo was petting his cat? Hinjo was clearly being groomed to take over for a while, it's not like they threw a random mook into the leadership position.
Actually, they may have effectively done so. Note here the Miko-Hinjo relationship. She bullies him. Not what you do to your commander. Of course that was mostly force of personality, but she still treats him as just another paladin, not somebody of high rank. [Note she obeys Shojo instantly and despite her strong objections, and in a very deferential manner, far different than her ordering Hinjo around.]
Note too that Hinjo spends a lot of time on the front lines. It's a common flaw of generals, who did not get to be generals without being insanely brave, but working generals are routinely too snowed under by paperwork to get to where somebody can kill them. But if Hinjo had been in the high command, he would have been used to being stuck in an office and never seeing the actual battle. Instead he acts like his previous experience was as a low level commander who had to get his hands dirty to do his job.
It is a common flaw for kings to put princes into the army, but not actually have them do much. So it is quite within reason that Hinjo was just allowed to play around, and the kid was never allowed to actually bother men who actually had to do the work. And we do have an elderly general who nicely fits this pattern.

For what it's worth, Rich describes Hinjo as "a passable commander" in the commentary of WaX. To the author, then, at least, he's neither the epic failure many people here seem to see him as nor a particularly savvy strategist.
"Passable" is damming with faint praise. It routinely means you have worse problems to worry about. And we are not really concerned with his grade, but with the fact that he made a gross mistake, one that could have completely changed the battle result.

veti

2014-03-11, 04:22 PM

Where did the idea that Hinjo was a hopeless and inexperienced commander come from?

"Hopeless" may be a little unkind, but he was hugely out-commanded by Redcloak. And his major tactical decisions were, basically, those of a novice.

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10526876&postcount=53) for my detailed analysis.

oppyu

2014-03-11, 04:29 PM

stuff

Passable seems reasonable to me. He's a smart and devoted guy with army experience, but this would still likely be his first large-scale campaign. You're painting this image of an army which, through gross nepotism, appointed an incompetent and inexperienced leader to the throne less than a day before a massive invasion. This image requires numerous assumptions;

- that Hinjo was swimming in idle reserves that hadn't already been deployed by the time of the breach,
- that the idle reserves didn't make it to the breach in time to be overwhelmed by superior numbers with their friends,
- that the hobgoblin army had finished disengaging with the other sections of the wall by the time the horde had pressed through the breach, thus leaving a bunch of people just standing around wondering why nobody was immediately trying to murder them,
- that General Chang was far more qualified than Hinjo,
- that Hinjo had little real military experience,
- that it is a 'common flaw' for generals to be on the front line. (Note: It's not like Hinjo was front line infantry; he was on the wall where he was able to see what's going on and help out as the highest level paladin in the Sapphire Guard.)
- that the breach was the only weak point. (We hear earlier that the titanium elementals tore multiple holes in the walls.)
- that it is a 'common flaw' for cities to put princes in the army without the princes gaining any real army experience, and that Hinjo was just playing around in the army and wasn't allowed to impede any of the real men.
- that 'passable commander' means 'someone who made a gross mistake that directly resulted in the fall of his city'.

In favour of Hinjo's qualifications, Shojo knew he was dying soon and that Hinjo would most likely be taking control. Shojo was many things, but he was smart and he cared about the city. So why would he leave things in the hands of an incompetent boob who had gotten where he is purely through nepotism? If he didn't trust Hinjo to run the city after he was gone, he would have done something deceptive, illegal and unLawful to ensure that someone competent would be the next-in-line. Instead, there was a peaceful transition where the only people who opposed Hinjo's appointment were the corrupt and decadent nobles who immediately tried to assassinate him.

Keltest

2014-03-11, 04:40 PM

"Hopeless" may be a little unkind, but he was hugely out-commanded by Redcloak. And his major tactical decisions were, basically, those of a novice.

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10526876&postcount=53) for my detailed analysis.

Well, no offense intended, but I disagree completely with that analysis. I feel that it shows a poor understanding of things like Hinjo's objectives in the fight, as well as outright applying a double standard.

For example, you claim that Redcloak had better priorities, going for the city first, then the gate, but that is because he had motives that were unknown to Azure city at the time; the actual takeover of the city. They did not anticipate Redcloak's plans for a long term occupation.

You also claim that Hinjo had no control over the Order, when quite clearly he was able to exert a greater degree of control over them than Redcloak did over Xykon. Recognizing that they operate best with a degree of autonomy does not equate to just letting them do whatever they want.

oppyu

2014-03-11, 04:48 PM

"Hopeless" may be a little unkind, but he was hugely out-commanded by Redcloak. And his major tactical decisions were, basically, those of a novice.

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10526876&postcount=53) for my detailed analysis.
That was an interesting analysis. I disagree with you on a couple of points (specifically that Hinjo should have won Principle of the Objective in my opinion and that Principle of Unity of Command doesn't particularly apply to adventurers you want functioning as freelance do-gooders hunting down your enemies elite soldiers), but overall I do agree that Hinjo was generally out-commanded by Redcloak, especially once Redcloak learned to respect hobgoblin life. It's particularly amusing remembering exactly how spectacularly awful Hinjo's plan to release high-level prisoners went.

One caveat; I still don't think the story intends us to see Hinjo as having done a particularly bad job. His military acumen is limited by the Giant's military acumen, and I don't think the Giant reads the US Marine Corps Institute book of Tactical Fundamentals in his spare time.

ti'esar

2014-03-11, 07:39 PM

One caveat; I still don't think the story intends us to see Hinjo as having done a particularly bad job. His military acumen is limited by the Giant's military acumen, and I don't think the Giant reads the US Marine Corps Institute book of Tactical Fundamentals in his spare time.

Eh. That might be true, but on the other hand "passable commander" is damning with faint praise, and Hinjo does seem like a pretty passive leader during the battle.

Keltest

2014-03-11, 08:02 PM

Eh. That might be true, but on the other hand "passable commander" is damning with faint praise, and Hinjo does seem like a pretty passive leader during the battle.

Theres very little strategy in countering a zerg rush. The fact that we aren't focusing on him barking orders doesn't mean hes a passive commander, simply that he isn't the focus of the story.

King of Nowhere

2014-03-11, 08:05 PM

"Hopeless" may be a little unkind, but he was hugely out-commanded by Redcloak. And his major tactical decisions were, basically, those of a novice.

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10526876&postcount=53) for my detailed analysis.

That's quite intersting, however I'm not sure how much many of those points apply to a fantasy medioeval setting.
For example, the "principle of offensive" states that attacking is easier than defending, which I suppose is true with modern weaponry, but I'm pretty sure do not apply to the siege of a castle. With the kind of weapons available, the army defending the castle should have the advantage over the one attacking. furthermore, I just see no way a small army entrenched behind a wall can attack a much greater army besieging it.
Also, the presence of high level characters is going to make significant alterations in strategy.

So, while I agree that redcloak was the better commander, I wouldn't bash hinjo, as he was in a really bad position from the beginning. the enemy troops were three times more, they were stronger, they had much better morale, and they had the highest level characters.
Also seems a case of no delay for the wicked: after a forced march that would have killed some hobbos, the remaining ones shouldn't have had the strenght to fight effectively, but that is never mentioned. those who survived were still fresh enough to fight well.

David Argall

2014-03-11, 09:22 PM

Passable seems reasonable to me. He's a smart and devoted guy with army experience, but this would still likely be his first large-scale campaign. You're painting this image of an army which, through gross nepotism, appointed an incompetent and inexperienced leader to the throne less than a day before a massive invasion. This image requires numerous assumptions;

- that Hinjo was swimming in idle reserves that hadn't already been deployed by the time of the breach,
450 shows us this. Lots of open space near the breach that was full of troops in 422, while the space behind the rest of the wall is full of troops.

- that the idle reserves didn't make it to the breach in time to be overwhelmed by superior numbers with their friends,
Past a rather low number, superior numbers were quite useless. Effectively they were fighting in a narrow alley, and the superior numbers were just waiting in line. The hobgoblins attacked in a direction the defenders were not expecting. Even then, the hobgoblin success was fantastic. We have to assume the defenders had not even started to turn to face the threat.

- that the hobgoblin army had finished disengaging with the other sections of the wall by the time the horde had pressed through the breach, thus leaving a bunch of people just standing around wondering why nobody was immediately trying to murder them,
We have the idle troops all thru the battle. That they were not moved is another sign of Hinjo inexperience of the greater picture. He saw the threat to his position and keep his reserves, despite a greater need elsewhere.

- that General Chang was far more qualified than Hinjo,
Not necessary. He probably was, but even if he was a senile idiot, ultimate responsibility falls on Hinjo. He is only important here as an excuse we explore to find he is not a valid excuse.

- that Hinjo had little real military experience,
Hinjo presumably had little or no high command experience. Since the story is using combat experience = levels, Hinjo apparently had a good deal of small unit experience.

- that it is a 'common flaw' for generals to be on the front line. (Note: It's not like Hinjo was front line infantry; he was on the wall where he was able to see what's going on and help out as the highest level paladin in the Sapphire Guard.)
In other words, where he was most distracted from being a commander, the fault we are charging him with.

- that the breach was the only weak point. (We hear earlier that the titanium elementals tore multiple holes in the walls.)
We see the damaged wall, and can see that the breach was THE weak point, far more significant than the others.

- that it is a 'common flaw' for cities to put princes in the army without the princes gaining any real army experience, and that Hinjo was just playing around in the army and wasn't allowed to impede any of the real men.
It is a cliche that the boss has an idiot son who must be put up with and the best one can hope is that he stays out of the way.

- that 'passable commander' means 'someone who made a gross mistake that directly resulted in the fall of his city'.
Since there has been plenty of quite competent generals who made gross mistakes, this is no contradiction.

In favour of Hinjo's qualifications, Shojo knew he was dying soon and that Hinjo would most likely be taking control. Shojo was many things, but he was smart and he cared about the city. So why would he leave things in the hands of an incompetent boob who had gotten where he is purely through nepotism? If he didn't trust Hinjo to run the city after he was gone, he would have done something deceptive, illegal and unLawful to ensure that someone competent would be the next-in-line. Instead, there was a peaceful transition where the only people who opposed Hinjo's appointment were the corrupt and decadent nobles who immediately tried to assassinate him.
The theory of kingship says that the kingdom is the personal property of the ruler, which means it is inherited by the "eldest son" no matter how incompetent he is or is not. There is nothing even unusual in Shojo making sure Hinjo was the next ruler, no matter what his ability.

veti

2014-03-11, 10:07 PM

That's quite intersting, however I'm not sure how much many of those points apply to a fantasy medioeval setting.
For example, the "principle of offensive" states that attacking is easier than defending, which I suppose is true with modern weaponry, but I'm pretty sure do not apply to the siege of a castle. With the kind of weapons available, the army defending the castle should have the advantage over the one attacking. furthermore, I just see no way a small army entrenched behind a wall can attack a much greater army besieging it.

That's - not as true as it looks at first glance. Anyone who's played 'Medieval II: Total War' or similar knows that even at lowish tech levels, a purely static defence is basically suicidal. The idea that "all we have to do is sit behind the walls and let the enemy throw themselves against them" - is exactly the kind of beguiling n00b mistake that a more experienced commander wouldn't have made.

Yes, Hinjo's position was far from ideal - but he could have done much better with what he had. In his defence, he's not the first commander to make those mistakes. And maybe he'll have learned better next time.

oppyu

2014-03-11, 10:30 PM

stuff
Ok, I think I see the disagreement. I don't believe there's an army inside the palace walls in #422 or #450. From what we see in #446, it seems like just the walls are lined with soldiers. They weren't enough to stop Tsukiko, and they certainly wouldn't be enough to hold the breach in the lower walls. All the reserve units were in the lower area and got caught up in either the southern breach or the northern conflict. By #454, the hobgoblin forces have control of the lower area, the palace walls seem to have been cleared of soldiers and the only people in the castle were the priests who were quickly wiped out by Redcloak and the Chlorine Elemental in #456-#457.

As for the breach, the whole Azure army was split with half fighting the northern conflict and half fighting the southern breach while Redcloak split his army into three - north wall, south breach, reserves. It's true that the north wasn't as vulnerable, but Redcloak kept sending soldiers so Hinjo had to respond somehow. Which meant they were completely unprepared for the hobgoblin reserve unit to run straight at the south breach (where the superior numbers came into play). Redcloak kept at least half of his troops out of play until he saw an opening, and then used said opening to decisively win the battle. Hinjo was out-commanded, but he wasn't incompetent.

As for Hinjo and Shojo, my point was that Shojo would make sure Hinjo was competent. He would have been personally teaching Hinjo, he would have big army dudes teaching Hinjo, there would have been significant resources expended on Team Make Sure Hinjo Knows His Feces.

BenjCano

2014-03-11, 11:01 PM

That's - not as true as it looks at first glance. Anyone who's played 'Medieval II: Total War' or similar knows that even at lowish tech levels, a purely static defence is basically suicidal.....

Dude, if you're getting your knowledge of the history of warfare from Medieval strategy games...

From Castles and Fortresses, by R.R. Sellman (quoted in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege#Defensive)): "Until the invention of gunpowder-based weapons (and the resulting higher-velocity projectiles), the balance of power and logistics definitely favoured the defender."

veti

2014-03-11, 11:24 PM

From Castles and Fortresses, by R.R. Sellman (quoted in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege#Defensive)): "Until the invention of gunpowder-based weapons (and the resulting higher-velocity projectiles), the balance of power and logistics definitely favoured the defender."

Well, yes. And that's why a 3-to-1 disadvantage in numbers was described as "about an even fight".

Doesn't change the fact that if you want to win a battle, your troops are gonna have to move. Standing still and letting the enemy come to you - just doesn't work. (Heck, even at Thermopylae it failed eventually, and that was about the ideal situation for it.)

BenjCano

2014-03-11, 11:38 PM

Doesn't change the fact that if you want to win a battle, your troops are gonna have to move. Standing still and letting the enemy come to you - just doesn't work. (Heck, even at Thermopylae it failed eventually, and that was about the ideal situation for it.)

In 1705, Daniel d'Auger de Subercase laid siege to the English settlement of St. John's in Newfoundland. It lasted for about five weeks before the French ran out of provisions and gunpowder. All the English had to do was sit behind their walls and return fire.

Sieges can fail for a lot of reasons; the biggest is that maintaining a besieging force is hard, expensive, takes a bloody long time, your army is at the mercy of the weather and elements, and this is all even before you factor in what the enemy can do to you.

MReav

2014-03-11, 11:56 PM

Actually, it would. If you fail the initial save then lich paralysis is permanent unless dispelled. He was only able to break the paralysis without assistance in #661 because Xykon used a standard Hold Person spell rather than his lich ability.

Remove Paralysis is a second level Paladin spell, and Soon is an Epic level paladin, so he'd be able to cast it once he's had time to prepare it. Besides, ghost-type creatures tend to have rejuvenation so after a few days the others would likely be back and could cover for Soon in the time it takes to recover spells.

Blah blah why didn't any of the paladins think to use Remove Paralysis on O-Chul blah blah story trumps rules blah blah.

veti

2014-03-12, 01:31 AM

In 1705, Daniel d'Auger de Subercase laid siege to the English settlement of St. John's in Newfoundland. It lasted for about five weeks before the French ran out of provisions and gunpowder. All the English had to do was sit behind their walls and return fire.

Okay, but that's hardly a "battle", is it? The word implies more than just people taking occasional pot shots at each other over a period of weeks. Otherwise the whole Western Front campaign of World War I would be considered one incredibly drawn out battle.

But seriously, this sort of argument is exactly why I went to an authoritative source on tactics rather than just relying on my own imagination and experience with games. If the USMC says attacking is better than defending, I for one am inclined to assume they know what they're talking about. My own gaming experience bears them out, but that's just corroboration.

factotum

2014-03-12, 02:56 AM

Regardless of the earlier observations, I have no problem in believing Hinjo to be an inferior commander to Redcloak, for one simple reason--his age. Hinjo is, what, maybe late 20s? 30 at most? Not to mention that Azure City has been largely at peace for his entire life, so he hasn't done much commanding in battle before. Redcloak is topping 50, and has been fighting various battles for a great deal of that time--frankly, if he *wasn't* better at it than Hinjo after all that practice, there'd be something wrong!

That doesn't make Hinjo a *bad* commander, though, it makes him an inexperienced one. He'll do better next time.

MagicalMeat

2014-03-12, 03:48 AM

Yes, Redcloak has a great knack for leadership, tactics and strategy. Did he use them in the battle? Not really. Sure he used the Titanium Elementals and the fake-Xykons, but his actually battle plan amounted to little more than shove bodies at them, while Xykon takes the throne room. Of course, he gets better, but even then he makes poor decisions like dueling the High Priest of the Twelve or whatever, which could have ended in his death.

So basically, I really don't think the outcome of the battle was due to tactics on anyone's part. Overwhelming force from Team Evil and loads of infighting amongst the Azurites were the two primary deciding factors.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-03-12, 05:41 AM

I agree that it is reasonable to assume that Hinjo has become more experienced and will do better if there is a next time. After all, Redcloak learned a few things that changed how he fought encounters, so Hinjo probably has as well.

Keltest

2014-03-12, 07:31 AM

Okay, but that's hardly a "battle", is it? The word implies more than just people taking occasional pot shots at each other over a period of weeks. Otherwise the whole Western Front campaign of World War I would be considered one incredibly drawn out battle.

But seriously, this sort of argument is exactly why I went to an authoritative source on tactics rather than just relying on my own imagination and experience with games. If the USMC says attacking is better than defending, I for one am inclined to assume they know what they're talking about. My own gaming experience bears them out, but that's just corroboration.

the USMC is not any more trained in ye olde warfare than we are. The fundamentals are not the same.

David Argall

2014-03-12, 11:45 AM

Ok, I think I see the disagreement. I don't believe there's an army inside the palace walls in #422 or #450. From what we see in #446, it seems like just the walls are lined with soldiers. They weren't enough to stop Tsukiko, and they certainly wouldn't be enough to hold the breach in the lower walls.
Of course there were unlikely to be significant reserves in the palace itself. There were limited ways in or out and they could not have gotten to where they were needed.
What 422 & 450 show us are large reserves between the palace and the city walls, reserves that simply stood there the entire battle. These are the troops that should have been moved to the breach, where the reserves were gone.

As for the breach, the whole Azure army was split with half fighting the northern conflict and half fighting the southern breach while Redcloak split his army into three - north wall, south breach, reserves. It's true that the north wasn't as vulnerable, but Redcloak kept sending soldiers so Hinjo had to respond somehow.
He didn't respond. The troops never moved. [Technically, we do see him issuing orders too late, but these orders never got put into action.]

Which meant they were completely unprepared for the hobgoblin reserve unit to run straight at the south breach (where the superior numbers came into play). Redcloak kept at least half of his troops out of play until he saw an opening, and then used said opening to decisively win the battle. Hinjo was out-commanded, but he wasn't incompetent.
Incompetent. Hinjo had all those reserves at a location that was less threatened. Hinjo could see the breach needed more defenders and he had those defenders standing idle. That there were attacks in other areas does not justify his ignoring that the breach was the weakest point, and the poorest defended.

As for Hinjo and Shojo, my point was that Shojo would make sure Hinjo was competent. He would have been personally teaching Hinjo, he would have big army dudes teaching Hinjo, there would have been significant resources expended on Team Make Sure Hinjo Knows His Feces.
He perhaps should have been. 'Would have' is entirely a different story. We can see far too many real cases where no such training was taking place to deem it automatic here.
To give a possible scenario... Shojo lives the good life, which Hinjo finds conflicting with his paladinhood [not as much as Miko did, but the same tendency is there]. So he tries to avoid Shojo as much as he can. The general, deeming him almost a baby, and definitely a nuisance, sends him on various missions, which Hinjo is eager to do since he likes combat. So he becomes quite good at combat and small-unit actions, but ignorant of the big picture.

hamishspence

2014-03-12, 11:57 AM

The whole point of reserves, is make sure you get the most out of them.

Hence - committing your reserves too early - can be as big an act of incompetence as committing your reserves too late.

King of Nowhere

2014-03-12, 12:54 PM

But seriously, this sort of argument is exactly why I went to an authoritative source on tactics rather than just relying on my own imagination and experience with games. If the USMC says attacking is better than defending, I for one am inclined to assume they know what they're talking about.

Yes, I also believe the USMC kknows what they're talking about, but it is based on modern combat, not medioeval one. The two are pretty different. So it would be like quoting a manual on football to get hints on how to play rugby. Definitely legitimate for us to doubt that autority.
You admit yourself that for medioeval combat you have nothing better than gaming experience, and we all know how that is relevant. For all is worth, my own gaming experience (with civilization 4) says that it depends on what kind of units you have, what kind of units the enemy have, what is the relative size of your armies, what is the defence bonus of your position and of your opponent's position, how many catapults you and your enemy have... while my other gaming experience (with chess) says that it depends on the position, and while most of the times it is better to seek a counterattack, sometimes there are no chances of that but a static defence is the only chancce for a draw.

The very example you bring, the thermophylae, actually is in favor of my interpretation: if the greeks had managed to last a few weeks, the persians would have had to withdraw because they were running short on food. And they almost managed it, losing only cause they were outflanked. On the other hand, what would have happened if the greek force of a few thousand soldiers had attacked the persian army?

But I recognize there's merit in your position, and it is actually better if the weaker army can do some offensive on the weaker enemy spots, like the supply lines, or short hit and run attacks.
However, how to turn that into something useful for the azurites? the hobbo army had no supply lines you could attack, and any attempt to make a sneak attack would easily run into xykon smashing everyone with a few meteor swarms. you can't even try to use your high level people tactically, as the chance they will get killed by xykon is too great for the benefit of killing a few hundred mooks.
Now, maybe they should have attacked the hobbo army while they were still exhausted from the march, but that could have just as easily turned into a disaster with redcloak summoning monsters and xykon taking out all the higher level azurites with ease. Just casting cloudkill in front of the gates while the azurites are attacking would effectively split their army in two.
So, there really weren't better options that waiting behind the walls and hope that xykon would run into the only thing that could defeat him. You can call it a bait if you want.

In the end, strategy didn't matter. team evil won because they had the higher level characters, and ffor how D&D works, that is much more important than tens of thousands of mooks or massive walls.

MagicalMeat

2014-03-12, 01:49 PM

David, why do you hate Hinjo so much? You really seem to want to blame everything on him. He wasn't a great commander, but really what was he supposed to do? Use Supertactics and kill Redcloak with three guys, a wooden horse and a squid? He did the best he could with his very limited resources. It's easy to view this in hindsight. Personally, I feel that Hinjo's biggest mistake was his trust in the prisoners. Ironically, the only one he punished was also the most loyal (Belkar).

Kish

2014-03-12, 01:58 PM

...loyal only because Hinjo kept him on a shorter leash than the others.

If Hinjo had removed the Mark of Justice, he would have laughed as his "new buddy" killed Hinjo.

King of Nowhere

2014-03-12, 04:25 PM

welll, it's not easy to put a leash on characters of level 5+, much less 10+ as tsukiko was. telling them that a squad behind them was ready to kill them if they misbehaved? they would have laughed.
it is a testament to the power of azure city that they managed to put those people in jail in the first place.And it's easier to criiticize now that we know it failed. hinjo couldn't know, and while it was indeed a risky move, he was in a bad position, and had to try something risky. it's like a guuy at poker who is short and goes all in with a 40% chance. it's easy to say he was wrong once he loses, but going all in was actually the right choice because without risk he would have lost anyway.

oppyu

2014-03-12, 05:23 PM

stuff
How would Hinjo have deployed those reserve units beforehand? If he marches them out of the city gates, he has to open the city gates to let them out. And if things go wrong, he has to either open the city gates to let them back in again or watch them die a horrible death. The defensive fortifications were the biggest advantage he had, why would he send his units into open war against a vastly numerically superior force? Also, I disagree with your assertion that he never used the reserve units inside the gates. In #446 we see a squadron of soldiers running in to reinforce the breach, in #450 we see a significant portion of the army behind the southern breach, in #453 we see him commanding other units to quickly run and reinforce the breach with him, and in #454, only after mass desertion, we see that the hobgoblin forces have swarmed through the breach. One knock against Hinjo, we do see that many of the forces sent to counter the northern offensive have ended up stranded at their position. Hinjo was unable to manouevre his army as effectively as Redcloak; successfully commanding his entire army to zerg rush at one point in the wall is very impressive on his part.

veti

2014-03-12, 06:49 PM

You admit yourself that for medioeval combat you have nothing better than gaming experience, and we all know how that is relevant. For all is worth, my own gaming experience (with civilization 4)

Then with respect, My Game Is More Relevant Than Your Game, because M2TW includes tactical combat as well as strategy. Specifically, "storming a walled city" is a scenario I've played through a hundred times, on both sides, with real-time tactical command of the units.

The very example you bring, the thermophylae, actually is in favor of my interpretation: if the greeks had managed to last a few weeks, the persians would have had to withdraw because they were running short on food. And they almost managed it, losing only cause they were outflanked.

But that's the whole point. If you stand still, you will be outflanked sooner or later - it's only a matter of time. You can't rely on the enemy carrying the idiot ball indefinitely. That's precisely why you Don't Stand Still. No matter how "impregnable" your position feels.

For examples of how a smaller force can actually defeat a larger one, check out the Battle of the Hydaspes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Hydaspes) or Battle of Marathon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marathon). Note that in both cases, mobility was absolutely key to victory.

But I recognize there's merit in your position, and it is actually better if the weaker army can do some offensive on the weaker enemy spots, like the supply lines, or short hit and run attacks.
However, how to turn that into something useful for the azurites? the hobbo army had no supply lines you could attack, and any attempt to make a sneak attack would easily run into xykon smashing everyone with a few meteor swarms. you can't even try to use your high level people tactically, as the chance they will get killed by xykon is too great for the benefit of killing a few hundred mooks.

Better plans for the Azurites could have included:
1. Pursue the enemy when they broke from the walls. Something like 75% of the casualties in any ancient/medieval battle are inflicted during pursuit.
2. Allow the enemy through the breach (while still holding the walls on either side of it, to limit the flow of reinforcements), then engage them from the flanks inside the city. The front-runners would have had to stop to fight, meaning those behind them lose momentum.
3. For a more daring option: deploy some of your forces outside the walls to begin with. These can distract the enemy, and end up tying down far more than proportionate to their own number, because part of the enemy force now has to take a defensive position. However, that's a high-risk option and probably only viable for an expert commander.

Over and above "killing more hobgoblins", any of these plans would have had the important effect of "giving the ordinary Azurite soldiers faith that there actually was a plan", which might have been enough to prevent this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html).

Keltest

2014-03-12, 07:26 PM

Better plans for the Azurites could have included:
1. Pursue the enemy when they broke from the walls. Something like 75% of the casualties in any ancient/medieval battle are inflicted during pursuit.
2. Allow the enemy through the breach (while still holding the walls on either side of it, to limit the flow of reinforcements), then engage them from the flanks inside the city. The front-runners would have had to stop to fight, meaning those behind them lose momentum.
3. For a more daring option: deploy some of your forces outside the walls to begin with. These can distract the enemy, and end up tying down far more than proportionate to their own number, because part of the enemy force now has to take a defensive position. However, that's a high-risk option and probably only viable for an expert commander.

Over and above "killing more hobgoblins", any of these plans would have had the important effect of "giving the ordinary Azurite soldiers faith that there actually was a plan", which might have been enough to prevent this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html).

1:
Remind me, where did the hobgoblins break from the walls? And how would the Azurites recover from being drawn wildly out of position were they to go charging after a numerically superior force?

2:
Allowing the enemy a little bit through the breach would not have much of an impact on the battle, especially the one with the giant soldiers. You've accelerated the killing in a small area, but the tactical advantage gained is rather minimal.

3:
this strategy relies far more of the quality of the troops than the commander, as they are basically unable to receive orders from their position. It would take an incredibly well equipped squad to force even a small portion of that army on the defensive simply due to sheer numbers.

Anarion

2014-03-12, 09:26 PM

...loyal only because Hinjo kept him on a shorter leash than the others.

If Hinjo had removed the Mark of Justice, he would have laughed as his "new buddy" killed Hinjo.

Well, Hinjo might have been killed by the archer, yeah, but Belkar probably would have been too busy slaughtering hobgoblins to care. No mark of Justice means you just leave him alone on a section of the wall while he holds it.

Anyway, to bring the conversation back to the original question, I think the whole thing can be laid at Miko's feet. All other things being equal, if she hadn't killed Shojo, she adds an extra body equal in power to Redcloak to the side of Azure City, and the nobles don't defect en masse, most likely. A larger army, some extra ninjas, Hinjo in a better location, and Miko fighting for Azure City probably would have tipped the balance towards victory.

David Argall

2014-03-13, 12:17 AM

How would Hinjo have deployed those reserve units beforehand?
They were deployed beforehand. We are discussing redeployment when it developed that a portion of the wall was the weakest point.
And this redeployment is quite easy. The troops just had to move from behind the middle of the wall to the wing, the reverse of what the hobgoblins did a few minutes later.

I disagree with your assertion that he never used the reserve units inside the gates. In #446 we see a squadron of soldiers running in to reinforce the breach,
Most likely these were the reserves that were in this area in 422.

in #450 we see a significant portion of the army behind the southern breach,
We also see significant empty areas, empty areas that do not exist behind the rest of the wall. In other words, reserves were not moved to the point of weakness.

in #453 we see him commanding other units to quickly run and reinforce the breach with him,
Only after the breach had fallen in 452. He was 15 minutes to an hour late.

and in #454, only after mass desertion, we see that the hobgoblin forces have swarmed through the breach.
In 454, the hobgoblins had not only gotten in, but had killed most of the reserves, and the grey area had turned orange.

oppyu

2014-03-13, 01:50 AM

MagicalMeat

2014-03-13, 04:44 AM

orrion

2014-03-13, 10:06 AM

If Hinjo was a drooling moron when it comes to command, why did no one in the comic say so? The closest thing to a criticism that Hinjo gets regarding strategy is when Kubota is upset Hinjo didn't try diplomacy with Xykon. Nobody blames his strategies; they may say he was traitorous, or corrupted hy the Order, but nobody said he was incompetent. He's no Erwin Rommel, but he's not George Custer.

Even if Hinjo was incompetent, the Azure City general was at the breach the entire time until the Death Knight killed him.

The only one using a terrible strategy as far as winning goes was Redcloak. He had a break in the wall and didn't throw everything he had at it instantly.

Anarion

2014-03-13, 11:12 AM

The only one using a terrible strategy as far as winning goes was Redcloak. He had a break in the wall and didn't throw everything he had at it instantly.

That's not terrible strategy. If he committed too early, the defenders could easily have mobilized more resources to the breach, V might have been in position to defend it better, and Roy as one of the giant soldiers could have killed tens of hobgoblins per round.

Redcloak did make a mistake in failing to commit to the breach after the defenders were beleaguered enough to be unable to lend aid, but I think his commitment was only a little bit late, and even the timing used in the comic wasn't too bad.

factotum

2014-03-13, 11:54 AM

That's not terrible strategy. If he committed too early, the defenders could easily have mobilized more resources to the breach, V might have been in position to defend it better, and Roy as one of the giant soldiers could have killed tens of hobgoblins per round.

As opposed to all those hobgoblins dying assaulting an intact wall they couldn't possibly breach, you mean? No, I agree with orrion--if Redcloak had been wanting to win with minimal casualties, his best tactic was to assault the breach as soon as it was made, since it was by far the weakest part of the defences regardless of how many defenders were there. Not only that, it would presumably take longer for the defenders to concentrate at the breach than the attackers, since the attackers were on a flat plain while the defenders would have to go round buildings.

Of course, him following that strategy wasn't a failure of his command ability--he knew exactly what to do, as he showed later on. He only continued the battle in the way he did because his latent dislike for the hobgoblins meant he was quite happy they were dying in droves.

Keltest

2014-03-13, 11:57 AM

As opposed to all those hobgoblins dying assaulting an intact wall they couldn't possibly breach, you mean? No, I agree with orrion--if Redcloak had been wanting to win with minimal casualties, his best tactic was to assault the breach as soon as it was made, since it was by far the weakest part of the defences regardless of how many defenders were there. Not only that, it would presumably take longer for the defenders to concentrate at the breach than the attackers, since the attackers were on a flat plain while the defenders would have to go round buildings.

Of course, him following that strategy wasn't a failure of his command ability--he knew exactly what to do, as he showed later on. He only continued the battle in the way he did because his latent dislike for the hobgoblins meant he was quite happy they were dying in droves.

youre reminding me of a saying about eggs and baskets. The sheer amount of carnage even a group of magically enhanced generic soldiers were able to cause when properly supported was horribly disproportionate to the resources invested in the defense. Redcloak was unaware of the resources Azure City could invest in defending a single point; it would have been strategically unsound to assume that they would be able to get through the breach and still maintain their vast numerical superiority.

Anarion

2014-03-13, 12:29 PM

youre reminding me of a saying about eggs and baskets. The sheer amount of carnage even a group of magically enhanced generic soldiers were able to cause when properly supported was horribly disproportionate to the resources invested in the defense. Redcloak was unaware of the resources Azure City could invest in defending a single point; it would have been strategically unsound to assume that they would be able to get through the breach and still maintain their vast numerical superiority.

This.

Also the breach wasn't very big, it was easily filled by a small number of really big soldiers. If you've got 30,000 guys and you don't know the full extent of enemy defenses, bottle necking them at a narrow point doesn't strike me as a great plan. It worked later because every powerful character that could have held a choke was tapped out or MIA.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-13, 01:44 PM

This.

Also the breach wasn't very big, it was easily filled by a small number of really big soldiers. If you've got 30,000 guys and you don't know the full extent of enemy defenses, bottle necking them at a narrow point doesn't strike me as a great plan. It worked later because every powerful character that could have held a choke was tapped out or MIA.
Ten of the giant soldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html), each occupying 4 squares, were able to keep any hobgoblins from passing through the breach. After the giant soldiers were killed, it looked like about 13 medium-sized soldiers could stand abreast in the breach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html). So the breach was probably somewhere between 60 and 100 feet wide. Judging from the height of the giant soldiers, the wall (after V's stonemasonry) still rose between 5 and 10 feet off the ground.

MagicalMeat

2014-03-13, 01:55 PM

Honestly, even though Redcloak had many failures, the breach was not one of them. The Death Knight was a great counter to the giant soldiers. Ideally, Redcloak would have organized the Death Knight's attack to be followed by a surge of infantry, but I kinda got the feeling that the Death Knight was mostly independent, like the Huecuva, and the attack wasn't organized by Redcloak, so he can hardly be blamed. Of course, the DK was a lieutenant under Redcloak's command, so I suppose due to chain of command Redcloak can be blamed.

When it comes down to it, Redcloak was a crappy commander, but only because he didn't care about his army, he in fact hated them. His tactics that don't involve his soldiers dying needlessly are actually pretty decent.

The Pilgrim

2014-03-13, 01:57 PM

orrion

2014-03-13, 02:03 PM

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-13, 02:06 PM

The first azurite tactical mistake was wasting V's firepower to hold the breach. V was likely the most powerfull member of the Party, and the OOTS needed her in order to have a chance at Xykon. Even at the cost of letting the hobbos cross the breach.
Could the Order and the Azurites have known this at the time? V made exactly one contribution to the Order's previous fight against Xykon, and that was casting bull's strength on Roy before the fight started. The effect of that spell was more than replicated by the +5 bonus of Roy's sword. Furthermore, V separated herself from the rest of the party (over everyone else's objections, I might add) before anyone knew where Xykon was. That's a case of committing an asset too early, but it's also a case of disruptive insubordination that Roy, never mind Hinjo, really had no ability to stop.

rbetieh

2014-03-13, 02:20 PM

the USMC is not any more trained in ye olde warfare than we are. The fundamentals are not the same.

More so than you would think. The principle of Fire and Motion are as true today with Guns as they were in Roman times with Javelins. You have people shoot at the bad guys so they have to take cover and you can advance, making it easier to shot the bad guys.

The issue with Azure city is lack of preparation time, and that probably kills them off either way. The goblins had enough additional resources to open up many fronts on that battle field. Without prep time, you can't close those avenues. Then there were internal turmoil and morale issues to deal with, and extremely arrogant nobles...the city was doomed

Anarion

2014-03-13, 02:47 PM

I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that it's not terrible strategy to fail to exploit your enemy's weaknesses?

I said he failed to get the proper timing by a little bit. That's like dropping his overall score from a 10 to an 8.5. Less than perfect, far from terrible. My point is that attacking the weak point too early when the enemy still has the resources to quickly redeploy is also a bad plan, and that Redcloak's actual timing wasn't that far off from optimal, though it was a bit too late.

Could the Order and the Azurites have known this at the time? V made exactly one contribution to the Order's previous fight against Xykon, and that was casting bull's strength on Roy before the fight started. The effect of that spell was more than replicated by the +5 bonus of Roy's sword. Furthermore, V separated herself from the rest of the party (over everyone else's objections, I might add) before anyone knew where Xykon was. That's a case of committing an asset too early, but it's also a case of disruptive insubordination that Roy, never mind Hinjo, really had no ability to stop.

Mistakes with V occurred prior to the start of the battle, imo. V apparently prepped mostly area spells designed to kill off large numbers of hobs, with only a few resources for fighting high priority targets. That was likely a mistake, given that the Order should have known that the city could hold if major high CR threats were eliminated. Also, Hinjo keeping the whole paladin ghost thing a secret was a big mistake since knowing about a potential safe room would have altered the Order's tactics.

Rogar Demonblud

2014-03-13, 03:03 PM

As opposed to all those hobgoblins dying assaulting an intact wall they couldn't possibly breach, you mean? No, I agree with orrion--if Redcloak had been wanting to win with minimal casualties, his best tactic was to assault the breach as soon as it was made, since it was by far the weakest part of the defences regardless of how many defenders were there. Not only that, it would presumably take longer for the defenders to concentrate at the breach than the attackers, since the attackers were on a flat plain while the defenders would have to go round buildings.

Multiple assumptions, many of which probably aren't valid. They don't have to go around buildings, they can probably go through them (if buildings were built in the way in the first place--I don't remember seeing many in the wide shots). Crossing wide open ground leaves you open to ranged fire from the walls. And bunching up your troops isn't that smart, especially if they're sword and board types (did we see any hobgoblins with reach weapons?). See, you combat power is limited to the front rank in that case, and everyone else is just standing about. Reach weapons might be useful (if you have them), since that brings the second rank into play. Otherwise, all they're there to do is lose their lives. See Cannae, Plataea, Marathon, etc.

And if the nobles hadn't run away with their armies, AC would've had the troops to do that. But Redcloak didn't know that.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-13, 03:06 PM

Mistakes with V occurred prior to the start of the battle, imo. V apparently prepped mostly area spells designed to kill off large numbers of hobs, with only a few resources for fighting high priority targets.
Let's investigate this. During the battle V cast the following spells from her own spell slots on-panel:

protection from arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) (self-buff)
expeditious retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) (self-buff)
feather fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) (multi-target utility)
Bugsby's grasping hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) (single-target utility)
mass bear's endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) (multi-target buff)
mass bull's strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) (multi-target buff)
mass enlarge person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) (multi-target buff)
an unknown spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) (unknown)
disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html) (single-target damage)
disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html) (single-target damage)
an unknown spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) (possibly uncast, likely single-target damage)
lightning bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) (multi-target damage)
lightning bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) (multi-target damage)
invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) (single-target buff)

V also alludes to having prepared and cast "many area-effect spells" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html). But on-panel she cast the same number of single-target and multi-target damage spells, and her total on-panel damage spells were outweighed by utility and buff spells.

We can get some idea of what percentage of V's prepared spells the list above represents. Assume V is level 13 and has 23 Intelligence and a ring of wizardry III. She has the following available spell slots (above spells slotted in where appropriate):

7th: Bugsby's grasping handB, disintegrate
6th: disintegrate, mass bear's endurance, mass bull's strength, - B
5th: - , - , - , - , - B
4th: mass enlarge person, - , - , - , - , - B
3rd: lightning boltB (2), - , - , - , - , - , - , - , -
2nd: invisibility, protection from arrows, - , - , - , - , - B
1st: expeditious retreat, feather fall, - , - , - , - , - B
0: - , - , - , -

That's 33 spells V had prepared and did not cast on panel, some or all of which (but not none of which, given V's comment in strip 437) could have been area damage spells. Interestingly, it seems that none of these spells were wall of fire or wall of ice, which would both have been "area spells designed to kill large numbers of hobs."

David Argall

2014-03-13, 03:10 PM

The army is split relatively evenly between the two conflicts in #450. Just because the angle obscures large areas of the southern interior and makes it seem as though the army is massed behind the middle of the wall as opposed to their previously stated conflicts at the north and south of the wall (I guarantee you it would look very differently if it was a top down view of the defending army),
This would seem to be just an article of faith. Where is the evidence? In 422, we have long unbroken lines of soldiers, soldiers that can be moved North or South very easily. In 446 & 450. we have open space near the breach where there were soldiers before.

it doesn't mean you can reasonably assume that the soldiers are just ignoring the southern breach.
It would be rather routine. Nearly every organization works on “do your job and let the other guy worry about his”. So our soldiers would be worrying about the enemy attacking their section of wall and ignoring those fighting at the breach. That is why the failure is Hinjo’s. It was his job to be worrying about the whole wall, and he seems to have concentrated on the sector he was in.

There are two large gaps in #450 you keep referring to; one is in the middle of the wall where nobody is attacking,
Which was full of troops in 422. 446 also shows us open ground that should be full of troops. Again, all consistent with Hinjo not moving reserves to the breach.

Add to that that in #452, it is shown that the Southern defenders had defeated their opponents and that Hinjo had already sent reinforcements anyway.
He was going to send reinforcements in 10 minutes, instead of having sent them 10 minutes ago. Again, this is consistent with his being an inexperienced commander who was not seeing the big picture.

With the benefit of hindsight we can see that Hinjo should have had most of his army behind the breach instead of splitting them to fight Redcloak's two detachments, but he clearly wasn't ignoring the Southern area
What evidence do we have that he was paying more than minimal attention to it? It does not need hindsight to see more forces will be needed at a breach and we see no sign he did that.

any mythical massive reserve unit just waiting to receive some kind of order.
We see lots of reserves in 422.

Also, considering that the reinforcements were already announced to be ten minutes away before #453 where you assert that Hinjo's reinforcements were at least fifteen minutes late, that time frame is clearly incorrect even if we assume no time has passed between the two strips.
The fact the reserves were not already there makes them at least 15 minutes, if not an hour, late. Indeed, reserves should have been moving to the breach from the moment it was created. We can argue that V’s efforts made it seem unnecessary, but they had been defeated before 446 and so the reserves should have been on the move before this.

For all we know
Which is saying you want to act on faith, not the evidence.

the reinforcements that weren't nearly killed by infighting and high-level undead had already made it to the breach before the hobgoblins broke through.
452 rejects this out of hand. We are told reserves existed, 10 minutes away. Thus they had not made it to the breach yet. And we have several pictures of the charge thru the breach. The defenders were few in number and so the reserves had not arrived yet.

The soldier in #452 reports that the hobgoblins are presently breaking off by the time that the reserve force (unlike Azure City, Redcloak actually has reserve forces to command) is charging at the breach. So the soldiers by the north would have still been fighting, which would have made it difficult for the easy redeployment you advised.
These forces were fighting on the wall. Again, 422 tells us there were large numbers of reserves behind the wall. Now Hinjo may have wanted those reserves for his sector of the wall, but they were just reserves for him, and could have been directly fighting at the breach. Again, we have fault, Hinjo.

oppyu

2014-03-13, 04:29 PM

Apparently we're only making arguments based on things explicitly proven true, which is funny because you've been wildly speculating this entire-

No, I don't care anymore. That Hinjo is just the worst, isn't he?

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-13, 04:31 PM

No, I don't care anymore. That Hinjo is just the worst, isn't he?
Now now, irrational hatred of a character based on a single action or series of connected actions is a perfectly respectable position on this forum :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence

2014-03-13, 04:34 PM

Where is the evidence?

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack?

MagicalMeat

2014-03-13, 05:27 PM

Anarion

2014-03-13, 05:37 PM

The Pilgrim

2014-03-13, 05:57 PM

More so than you would think. The principle of Fire and Motion are as true today with Guns as they were in Roman times with Javelins. You have people shoot at the bad guys so they have to take cover and you can advance, making it easier to shot the bad guys.

Romans marched in close formation, and against their heavy armor and shields the javelins had little effect. The key to the battle was the clash between heavy infantry in melee until one side runs out of morale and breaks formation.

Nothing changed much up until the apparition of firearms in the renaissense. And even then, up until the apparition of bolt-action rifles, armies still marched in close formation and the basic mechanics of battle were to get close to the enemy, fire a full barrage, repeat until one of the sides breaks, or you get into bayonet-range and the hand-to-hand carnage begins.

After bolt-action rifles appeared in the 19th Century, the mechanics of warfare changed. Close formation vanished, now it was all spread out and take cover. That's when the principe of Fire and Motion is born. You fire at the enemy to pin him down in his hole, then advance.

However, after WWI, the principle of Fire and Motion was substituded by the principle of Motion and Fire. Now you try to sneak forward, avoiding to reveal your position for as long as you can, until you outmaneuvre the enemy and get a good firing position. Then you fire.

But well, the point here is... modern warfare has, indeed, little to see with the topic at hand.

orrion

2014-03-13, 06:12 PM

I said he failed to get the proper timing by a little bit. That's like dropping his overall score from a 10 to an 8.5. Less than perfect, far from terrible. My point is that attacking the weak point too early when the enemy still has the resources to quickly redeploy is also a bad plan, and that Redcloak's actual timing wasn't that far off from optimal, though it was a bit too late.

No. Strategically, the proper response is to hit the weakness when it's revealed. You don't wait on it to give the enemy a chance to repair or respond to it.

Just because the other guys didn't redeploy doesn't mean you should have given them the chance to.

Rogar Demonblud

2014-03-13, 06:24 PM

1. Summon celestial aid
2. Sent to their Elven allies for aid (equipment and magic items, even if not soldiers)
3. Pulled in any soldiers in the field.
4. Had time to convince the nobles that they were being dumb
5. Station extra guards to prevent ninja infiltration
6. Set fire traps, dig trenches, prepare illusions, and any other static defenses.

Sad thing is that Durkon could've done several of those with the spells he'd have available to him over the day or two it took for the hobgoblins to finish the march. Heck, a few Summon Monsters to drop fire elementals at the base of the wall with orders to burn ladders and the dead would've been a fairly basic tactic.

But I've come to the conclusion that the Order isn't just un-optimized, they're anti-optimization. Which makes all this talking about as useless (though entertaining) as most counter-factual history debates.

Hmm. That's an idea for a horse that hasn't been flogged yet. What else could Durkon (or the High Priest of Azure City, for that matter) done to improve AC's odds? Lesser Planar Ally is the first thing to spring to mind.

Emanick

2014-03-13, 06:36 PM

Sad thing is that Durkon could've done several of those with the spells he'd have available to him over the day or two it took for the hobgoblins to finish the march. Heck, a few Summon Monsters to drop fire elementals at the base of the wall with orders to burn ladders and the dead would've been a fairly basic tactic.

But I've come to the conclusion that the Order isn't just un-optimized, they're anti-optimization. Which makes all this talking about as useless (though entertaining) as most counter-factual history debates.

Hmm. That's an idea for a horse that hasn't been flogged yet. What else could Durkon (or the High Priest of Azure City, for that matter) done to improve AC's odds? Lesser Planar Ally is the first thing to spring to mind.

Summon Monster spells, even for Durkon, last about 13 rounds. Rather than burning a mid- to- high-level cleric's spell slots, the Azurites would have been better off dropping torches.

The Lesser Planar Ally idea is good, though. Frankly, if this had been a "real" battle rather than an episode in a comic book, I'd be astonished that both Durkon and the Azurite priests hadn't taken advantage of those spells to summon celestial help. There's no question that the Upper Planes would have done all they could to assist "one of the oldest bastions of Good on the Material plane."

Also, if this is still relevant, IIRC the USMC, or rather the part of it that writes manuals like this, is heavily steeped in the historical progression of Western warfare. So for what it's worth, the people who wrote those manuals probably are authoritative sources on medieval warfare, or at the very least relatively knowledgeable ones.

King of Nowhere

2014-03-13, 07:39 PM

Azure City could have won, if only the Order of the Stick had remained toghether and had faced Xykon on solid ground.

The first azurite tactical mistake was letting V waste her firepower to hold the breach. V was likely the most powerful member of the Party, and the OOTS needed her in order to have a chance at Xykon. Even at the cost of letting the hobbos cross the breach.

The second tactical mistake, was Roy jumping Xykon when they found him flying over the walls. Roy jumped away form his party in order to face, alone, in the middle of the air, with no flying capability whatsoever, an airborne Epic Lich Sorcerer mounted on a Zombie Dragon.

No wonder that one ended badly. And he didn't even have an arcane caster nearby to cast feather fall on him.

The azurites lost the battle when Roy jumped on Xykon. Yep, Eugene was right on this one.

Let's be honest there: if they faced xykon all together, and xykon went about it even remotely seriously, the order would have lost anyway.

No. Strategically, the proper response is to hit the weakness when it's revealed. You don't wait on it to give the enemy a chance to repair or respond to it.

Just because the other guys didn't redeploy doesn't mean you should have given them the chance to.
The breach wasn't a weakness when it was properly defended. it was once it was stripped of high level defenders.
In chess, when your opponent has a single weakness, you don't pile up everything you have on it, he probably can manage a good defence. You instead use the treath of attacking that weakness to keep his pieces tied there, and you manuever to create other weaknesses on him. repeat until he can't defend everything anymore.

But I've come to the conclusion that the Order isn't just un-optimized, they're anti-optimization. Which makes all this talking about as useless (though entertaining) as most counter-factual history debates.

Funny thing, V and durkon are more effective than any character of similar level i ever played. Now, I'm certainly not the greater autority there, but during my roleplaying days I was almost always the most expert of the group.
That means that oots is better optimized than 99% of gaming groups. the fact that this forum aggregates the remaining 1% is another thing.
THere's a similar mechanism in chess as portrayed in movies. When in a movie they show a chess greatmaster talking about chess, he talk like an average club player. when people use chess-based metaphors, they are often describing really weak players.
the reason is that the average joe, who is not a chess expert, will get the impression that those guys are experts. if those people talked like real chess experts, the average joe would not understand what they're saying, or it would seem ridiculous to him. which is exactly the same thing that happens when your average joe, not a D&D expert, hears about some real great min-maxing trick.

Trubbol

2014-03-13, 07:45 PM

Keltest

2014-03-13, 07:48 PM

Something I had been wondering about that whole battle was why they did not try putting a mark of Justice thingy on the crazy undead loving chick they were releasing from jail to fight against an army of hobgoblins lead by a lich.

Two reasons. One is they probably lacked the time do to so. The second is that the whole point of releasing them was so they could kill goblins. Belkar was released independently, before news of the attack, so he had the mark on him. And youll notice that defensively he was terrible; he could only attack the undead, whom the defenders did not expect in the first place.

oppyu

2014-03-13, 08:00 PM

Let's try discussing something besides Hinjo being a "special" kid who chokes on pennies. Like...

What preperations could Azure City have taken if it's outposts had the warning signal in different locations so Xykon couldn't find it? Could they have pulled a Gondor Calls for Aid and gathered allies? Built more weapons, fortifications, scrolls and such? Made better battle plans?
They may have had more defensive fortifications where they could station their troops. Somewhere they had the option to retreat or manoeuvre without abandoning the city or the Gate. More opportunity to whittle down the horde before it hit the walls, more time to make arrangements to evacuate citizens, other stuff people in the thread have already mentioned.

Plus they would have avoided the whole Miko/Shojo thing if Miko didn't have to go sprinting back to warn Azure City about the invasion force, which would have saved Azure City a LOT of trouble. They would have retained control of the nobles, had a high-level paladin tougher than the adventurers they're counting on to take out Xykon, no more morale issues, Xykon and co. wouldn't know exactly where the gate is...

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-13, 08:00 PM

Two reasons. One is they probably lacked the time do to so. The second is that the whole point of releasing them was so they could kill goblins.
Mark of justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) is a core spell, so we can look and see if those objections have any merit. Marking the two that decided to take Hinjo up on his offer would have taken 20 minutes and cost two scrolls (ten minutes if two clerics could be spared to use the scrolls at the same time). There was no particular need for their triggering conditions to be like Belkar's. Hinjo could have said something like their Marks would go off if they dealt lethal damage to an Azurite.

Keltest

2014-03-13, 08:04 PM

Mark of justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) is a core spell, so we can look and see if those objections have any merit. Marking the two that decided to take Hinjo up on his offer would have taken 20 minutes and cost two scrolls. There was no particular need for their triggering conditions to be like Belkar's. Hinjo could have said something like their Marks would go off if they dealt lethal damage to an Azurite.

Oh, hey, so it is.

well, maybe he wanted to put on a display of trusting them to get their help.

oppyu

2014-03-13, 08:04 PM

Mark of justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) is a core spell, so we can look and see if those objections have any merit. Marking the two that decided to take Hinjo up on his offer would have taken 20 minutes and cost two scrolls. There was no particular need for their triggering conditions to be like Belkar's. Hinjo could have said something like their Marks would go off if they dealt lethal damage to an Azurite.
Also, Hinjo's a boy scout-Lawful Good. Unusual punishment really isn't his style; even letting them out of the prison was strictly a Godzilla Threshold desperation move.

Knaight

2014-03-13, 09:13 PM

Then with respect, My Game Is More Relevant Than Your Game, because M2TW includes tactical combat as well as strategy. Specifically, "storming a walled city" is a scenario I've played through a hundred times, on both sides, with real-time tactical command of the units.

Really? We're doing this now? In that case, My Game Is More Relevant Than Your Game, because Mount and Blade focuses more closely on the interactions during tactics and siege defense is highly effective.

Or, we can look at history a bit more. Castles, cities and similar all involved a great deal of labor and material. They were not the sort of thing that could just be put up easily. That people consistently chose to do so suggests that they have a good defensive quality, as does the numerous cases of besieged forces being able to hole up and survive.

In the context of a large scale war, being on the offensive is obviously useful. Sure, you can keep troops alive by hiding them in a castle, but there are plenty of employed strategies wherein an army would besiege a castle, allowing another army to march right past them, and being on the marching right past side of things and doing whatever you want to the enemies non-castle land was extremely useful in pre-modern warfare, with the big defensive advantage of castles being precisely that they could tie up that first army, providing somewhere to attack from as soon as they were needed somewhere else. Which means that, at a large scale level a lot of the point of a castle is that it lets other castles operate as bases to attack from, because it ties up a bunch of enemy troops.

Azure City doesn't have that though. There's a whole one walled city involved. Hinjo had no real choice but to defend it - sending troops out and seizing the offensive would have been a terrible idea. Holding his position was about the best option that existed at the time the situation passed to him.

Trubbol

2014-03-13, 09:44 PM

Also, Hinjo's a boy scout-Lawful Good. Unusual punishment really isn't his style; even letting them out of the prison was strictly a Godzilla Threshold desperation move.

In both cases, Godzilla kind of tried to screw him over.

Everyl

2014-03-13, 10:20 PM

It's worth noting that the criminals who Hinjo freed to assist in the defense of the city were the ones who were in for (relatively) minor crimes. The guards explicitly state (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html) that anyone in for capital crimes, such as treason, was completely out of consideration for Hinjo's offer.

Given that Hinjo and the prisoners alike had good reason to believe that any humans stuck in the city would be killed or enslaved by the invaders should the city fall, I don't think it was unreasonable to expect the prisoners to not betray the city. Larceny Guy's betrayal was actually because he was bought off by Kubota (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html); he probably would have remained loyal had he not been influenced by other disloyal elements in Azure City. And while the details of Tsukiko's "Unnatural Acts of Wizardry" are left to the imagination (probably for the best), they are most likely related to her desire to put the "romance" in "necromancer." Her crimes were most likely of the sort seen as deviant, not the kind of thing that would raise fears of treason.

Basically, while the decision ultimately proved to be a bad one, I think it made sense given the information that Hinjo had available at the time.

orrion

2014-03-14, 12:43 AM

The breach wasn't a weakness when it was properly defended. it was once it was stripped of high level defenders.
In chess, when your opponent has a single weakness, you don't pile up everything you have on it, he probably can manage a good defence. You instead use the treath of attacking that weakness to keep his pieces tied there, and you manuever to create other weaknesses on him. repeat until he can't defend everything anymore.

It wasn't properly defended to start with, and even V and the General couldn't have held it against thousands of troops. In fact, I'd argue that the breach remained badly defended the entire time.

Chess is a bad example because you can't actually pile everything you have on the first weakness. Some of your pieces might not be active yet, and couldn't get there if they were. Plus, chess starts out evenly. You have the same number of pieces as your opponent. The hobgoblins had a 3 to 1 advantage. The Azurite general called it an even fight, but only because of the fortifications, and the fortifications were dealt major damage right away.

That charge Redcloak eventually led through the breach. Are you honestly going to try and tell me they could have held that charge back if he'd done it right after the breach was created? If so, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

multilis

2014-03-14, 12:59 AM

Azure city would have won until Elan. He gave the demoralizing speech and things went downhill from there. Azure city men failed to stand at their posts, with lower moral they missed targets, etc.

In climax, when Miko showed up, they were scattered rather than cheering her so she thought battle was lost, instead of helping Soon kill the 2 main enemy.

Elan is not what he seems, he destroys gates, he is clearly clever agent of Snarl pretending to be a fool. That is why he will have happy ending when Snarl wins.

oppyu

2014-03-14, 01:17 AM

Emanick

2014-03-14, 02:35 AM

*gasp* But Elan was only able to give a speech because after Roy forbade him, Hinjo allowed it... it really was all Hinjo's fault!

It appears that Hinjo is a terrible commander after all! :smallannoyed:

factotum

2014-03-14, 02:57 AM

Multiple assumptions, many of which probably aren't valid. They don't have to go around buildings, they can probably go through them (if buildings were built in the way in the first place--I don't remember seeing many in the wide shots). Crossing wide open ground leaves you open to ranged fire from the walls. And bunching up your troops isn't that smart, especially if they're sword and board types (did we see any hobgoblins with reach weapons?). See, you combat power is limited to the front rank in that case, and everyone else is just standing about. Reach weapons might be useful (if you have them), since that brings the second rank into play. Otherwise, all they're there to do is lose their lives. See Cannae, Plataea, Marathon, etc.

And if the nobles hadn't run away with their armies, AC would've had the troops to do that. But Redcloak didn't know that.

But Redcloak didn't know any of the stuff you just gave as reasons for *not* assaulting the breach either, apart from the "being open to arrow fire from the walls" thing--and that's contradictory; if some defenders were staying on the walls to shoot arrows, they couldn't also be on the way to defend the breach, which would be a win for the attackers. (Not to mention that Redcloak could fix that issue by just moving his army out to beyond arrow range before sending them north to assault the breach). The thing about only the front rank being able to attack applies at any point along the wall, and since the only way for the melee hobgoblins to actually reach the defenders anywhere other than the breach is to climb ladders and be open targets for their enemies, I remain pretty confident that they'd take fewer losses assaulting the breach. Which, in fact, is exactly what happened in the strip!

MagicalMeat

2014-03-14, 03:00 AM

*gasp* But Elan was only able to give a speech because after Roy forbade him, Hinjo allowed it... it really was all Hinjo's fault!

Everything is Hinjo's fault.

The Pilgrim

2014-03-14, 07:08 AM

Could the Order and the Azurites have known this at the time? V made exactly one contribution to the Order's previous fight against Xykon, and that was casting bull's strength on Roy before the fight started. The effect of that spell was more than replicated by the +5 bonus of Roy's sword. Furthermore, V separated herself from the rest of the party (over everyone else's objections, I might add) before anyone knew where Xykon was. That's a case of committing an asset too early, but it's also a case of disruptive insubordination that Roy, never mind Hinjo, really had no ability to stop.

Before the battle, Hinjo gave the Order the mission to kill Xykon, and allowed them full autonomy to do so. O-Chul objected, and pointed out that it would be wiser for Hinjo to keep the Order under his direct control. Hinjo said that Adventurers worked better under their own initiative. The battle proved him wrong - at least, for this particular bunch of adventurers.

I'm sure Roy knew that the elf Wizard was the most powerful asset of the Order. Spreading to slay the Titanium Elementals, while Xykon was not still around, was probably Ok. But while the rest of the Order rallied back at Hinjo after defeating their targets, V decided to stay in the breach and forget about Xykon. And Roy made no effort at all to call her back.

So, when Haley called off the three-xykons-bluff, and the real one was located flying over the walls, the Order had their most valuable asset killing low level mooks in some other plce. Instead of being in the right place to accomplish the one single mission Hinjo had given the Order: Slay Xykon.

Even after Xykon killed Roy and floated towards the Gate, the Order remained fooling around killing low level mooks, instead of making a bee-line to the Throne Room in order to reinforce the Sapphire Guard.

Hinjo could have reminded them what their role in this battle was supposed to be. But by that time, he seemed to have forgotten about the battle plan, too.

This battle was really meant to be The Order vs Team Evil. The rest was just scenery dressing. Alas, after a string of poor choices from the PC's, the GM had to pull a powerful NPC (Soon and the Ghost Martyrs) to take the place of the PC's in the climax of the Module, as the players have been too incompetent to make it there in shape.

Had the Order ignored everything except Xykon, they might have prevailed, and the Azurites might have won.

factotum

2014-03-14, 07:31 AM

Hinjo could have reminded them what their role in this battle was supposed to be. But by that time, he seemed to have forgotten about the battle plan, too.

I think his plan was to intercept Xykon before he ever got near the throne room. Since Xykon bypassed that plan by flying there directly, he had to change things around; I guess he believed that the Order wouldn't have time to reach the throne room quickly enough to make a difference. He was probably right on that front, given how quickly Xykon blew through the paladins and got onto the Ghost Martyrs.

(Interesting to note that Hinjo and Durkon are discussing the Xykon situation in #449, and at no point does Hinjo say "You need to get to the throne room, now!"--this is why I believe what I said above is the way Hinjo thought).

Anarion

2014-03-14, 07:42 AM

No. Strategically, the proper response is to hit the weakness when it's revealed. You don't wait on it to give the enemy a chance to repair or respond to it.

Just because the other guys didn't redeploy doesn't mean you should have given them the chance to.

You are telling us, categorically, that it is always the correct decision to commit all forces to a weakness as soon as it's revealed? Have you never heard of baiting or reserves? Or over commitment for that matter? Unless you have perfect intelligence, immediate commitment of all forces to the first enemy weakness revealed is a tried and true way to lose a battle.

Chess is a bad example because you can't actually pile everything you have on the first weakness. Some of your pieces might not be active yet, and couldn't get there if they were. Plus, chess starts out evenly. You have the same number of pieces as your opponent. The hobgoblins had a 3 to 1 advantage. The Azurite general called it an even fight, but only because of the fortifications, and the fortifications were dealt major damage right away.

60 foot gaps in a wall are a bad example because you can't actually pile everything you have on the first weakness...

That charge Redcloak eventually led through the breach. Are you honestly going to try and tell me they could have held that charge back if he'd done it right after the breach was created? If so, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

It's not about whether we agree that they could or could not have held the wall, it's about whether Redcloak knew that. And he did not. I don't either. I cannot state with certainty whether the wall could have been held if Roy replaced one if the giant soldiers and the entirety if Azure City high level characters were able to concentrate their power in that location.

The Pilgrim

2014-03-14, 09:05 AM

I think his plan was to intercept Xykon before he ever got near the throne room. Since Xykon bypassed that plan by flying there directly, he had to change things around; I guess he believed that the Order wouldn't have time to reach the throne room quickly enough to make a difference. He was probably right on that front, given how quickly Xykon blew through the paladins and got onto the Ghost Martyrs.

(Interesting to note that Hinjo and Durkon are discussing the Xykon situation in #449, and at no point does Hinjo say "You need to get to the throne room, now!"--this is why I believe what I said above is the way Hinjo thought).

Hinjo probably thought that way, but that doesn't makes his choice valid. The Order probably couln't have made it to the Throne Room before the paladins got slaughtered. But they would have certainly made it there before Redcloak did. Xykon was already in trouble dealing with the Ghost Martyrs, so guess what would had happened if the next thing coming through the Door had been the remmants of the Order, instead of Redcloak.

Keltest

2014-03-14, 09:14 AM

Hinjo probably thought that way, but that doesn't makes his choice valid. The Order probably couln't have made it to the Throne Room before the paladins got slaughtered. But they would have certainly made it there before Redcloak did. Xykon was already in trouble dealing with the Ghost Martyrs, so guess what would had happened if the next thing coming through the Door had been the remmants of the Order, instead of Redcloak.

they would have marveled at how fine the skeleton powder was on the ground, then laughed at redcloak as he came in. However, Hinjo could not possibly have forseen Xykon taking out the paladins the way he did, and they would easily be more powerful than the Order, PC plot shield or not.

Anarion

2014-03-14, 09:44 AM

they would have marveled at how fine the skeleton powder was on the ground, then laughed at redcloak as he came in. However, Hinjo could not possibly have forseen Xykon taking out the paladins the way he did, and they would easily be more powerful than the Order, PC plot shield or not.

While Hinjo certainly didn't foresee a super bouncy ball with a symbol of insanity, he absolutely did foresee that some or even all the paladins would die. He says so in 449 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html).

Keltest

2014-03-14, 09:49 AM

While Hinjo certainly didn't foresee a super bouncy ball with a symbol of insanity, he absolutely did foresee that some or even all the paladins would die. He says so in 449 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html).

which is exactly why he didn't send the order there too. They don't have the ghost Martyr thing going for them, so getting killed in a suicidal fight would not have helped anyone.

orrion

2014-03-14, 10:36 AM

You are telling us, categorically, that it is always the correct decision to commit all forces to a weakness as soon as it's revealed? Have you never heard of baiting or reserves? Or over commitment for that matter? Unless you have perfect intelligence, immediate commitment of all forces to the first enemy weakness revealed is a tried and true way to lose a battle.

No, I'm not saying it categorically. I'm saying for this instance. Hitting the weakness was the correct way to go. Baiting doesn't apply to a weakness that Redcloak created himself by blowing holes in the wall. Come on. It's also a pretty safe bet that they had at least some basic intelligence on Azure City's forces since Azure City was able to glean basic information on their own - probably more so, since Azure City had very little warning and Team Evil's army had been marching for awhile. So even if they had "reserves," Redcloak should have had a pretty good idea what those reserves were.

60 foot gaps in a wall are a bad example because you can't actually pile everything you have on the first weakness...

You mean except for the part where Redcloak eventually did just that, right?

It's not about whether we agree that they could or could not have held the wall, it's about whether Redcloak knew that. And he did not. I don't either. I cannot state with certainty whether the wall could have been held if Roy replaced one if the giant soldiers and the entirety if Azure City high level characters were able to concentrate their power in that location.

Based on what Redcloak knew, hitting the breach hard was still the best strategy.

It's not like Redcloak was being sound in other parts of the fight. He was assaulting the wall when they were losing a lot of troops on it. The hobgoblin general pointed this out twice, I think. Redcloak was just horrible, strategically, the entire fight, except for when he used the titanium elementals to start it off. He had different goals, yes, but that doesn't mean it wasn't horrible.

Anarion

2014-03-14, 11:39 AM

You mean except for the part where Redcloak eventually did just that, right?

After the forces had been exhausted and resources had been expended elsewhere. If Redcloak had sent the entire army at the breach right away, they would have been milling about outside the walks while the front lines were held down by a giant Hinjo and Roy and V's lightning bolts would have been killing hundreds of goblins with each shot.

They'd probably have still won, and maybe there are factors I'm not considering, but accusing Redcloak of bring a bad tactician because he didn't immediately pull his forces to charge the breach is wrong.

factotum

2014-03-14, 11:40 AM

Redcloak was just horrible, strategically, the entire fight, except for when he used the titanium elementals to start it off. He had different goals, yes, but that doesn't mean it wasn't horrible.

But as I said above, the major reason for that was that he not-so-secretly wanted a lot of the hated hobgoblins to die taking the city, and it was only after one saved his life that he started taking the battle seriously. In other words, Redcloak acting like an idiot wasn't because he's a bad commander, it's because he's a racist...there's a difference. :smallsmile:

Anarion

2014-03-14, 11:55 AM

But as I said above, the major reason for that was that he not-so-secretly wanted a lot of the hated hobgoblins to die taking the city, and it was only after one saved his life that he started taking the battle seriously. In other words, Redcloak acting like an idiot wasn't because he's a bad commander, it's because he's a racist...there's a difference. :smallsmile:

Also, quite honestly, that's a sign of his skill at strategy. He was so confident he could take the city that he was willing to use a battle plan that would involve a lot of possibly unnecessary casualties.

David Argall

2014-03-14, 03:41 PM

Apparently we're only making arguments based on things explicitly proven true, which is funny because you've been wildly speculating this entire-
I have speculated on why Hinjo made his mistake. The fact he didn't adequately reinforce the breach is simple fact.

No, I don't care anymore. That Hinjo is just the worst, isn't he?
Not at all. He made a mistake, a bad one, but still only a single mistake. Lots of generals have done worse. But that still does not allow use to ignore that mistake, which may have lost the city.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack?
But here we have the evidence of lack, in the form of too few troops to stop those hobgoblins, which shown in the comic. And stopping a charge does not require many troops when the charge must go thru a narrow gap. The defenders had the manpower, but it was not in the right place. Since it was Hinjo's job to put them in the right place, he gets the blame.

1. Summon celestial aid
2. Sent to their Elven allies for aid (equipment and magic items, even if not soldiers)
3. Pulled in any soldiers in the field.
4. Had time to convince the nobles that they were being dumb
5. Station extra guards to prevent ninja infiltration
6. Set fire traps, dig trenches, prepare illusions, and any other static defenses.
Now I doubt several of these tactics [The willingness of the elves to seriously help is quite doubtful, and the gods are not eager to get involved in mortal affairs for example], But it seems highly unlikely that Azure City had a mere 10,000 man army if the hobgoblins could raise 30,000 [even if that was augmented by death threats]. It would be amazing if they didn't have, or could raise, a much larger army if given much warning. So it does seem like a delay would have been highly useful in gathering a larger army.

Something I had been wondering about that whole battle was why they did not try putting a mark of Justice thingy on the crazy undead loving chick they were releasing from jail to fight against an army of hobgoblins lead by a lich.
As has been pointed out the Mark of Justice has its flaws. One is that the more you forbid, the more chance of it being set off at the wrong time. Here we see how much more useful Belkar was when not under the Mark. And with most of the risks, if they had suspected there was a risk, they would have never made the offer in the first place. In hindsight, yes, but at the time.... The spell could easily be more harm than help.

Everything is Hinjo's fault.
When you are the commander, that is not far wrong.

I'm sure Roy knew that the elf Wizard was the most powerful asset of the Order. Spreading to slay the Titanium Elementals, while Xykon was not still around, was probably Ok. But while the rest of the Order rallied back at Hinjo after defeating their targets, V decided to stay in the breach and forget about Xykon. And Roy made no effort at all to call her back.

So, when Haley called off the three-xykons-bluff, and the real one was located flying over the walls, the Order had their most valuable asset killing low level mooks in some other plce. Instead of being in the right place to accomplish the one single mission Hinjo had given the Order: Slay Xykon.

This battle was really meant to be The Order vs Team Evil.

Not precisely. The order was deemed about the only [non-secret] force that could deal with X. So hunting him down and killing him was high priority. But their orders amounted to make yourselves useful and were not limited to chasing after X.
In particular, V staying at the breach was sensible. She devised a strategy that for awhile seemed to easily defend the greatest weaknesses in the defense. And afterwards his spells seem to have been vital in holding the breach. Then we have that a lot of her spells seem to have been mook killers. A lightning bold would barely annoy X, but kills all sorts of minions. He just wasn't that effective vs X even if they had managed to confront the lich. So long before that battle started, V was intending to attack other opponents than X.

Nor was it that clear she was needed except to reach X. Roy had single-handedly beat X before. OK, a fluke, but now he has this +5 sword that was supposed to be nasty vs undead, and he had gained a level or three. He wasn't being that insane trying to take him on. So V could handle other vital missions and not be fooling around.

NihhusHuotAliro

2014-03-14, 03:51 PM

For Hinjo, the battle was a couple of minutes or hours. FOr us, it was almost a year. OF course we could react and respond better.

hamishspence

2014-03-14, 03:59 PM

Everyl

2014-03-14, 05:28 PM

Personally, I blame the fall of the breach on bad morale. In 452 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html), it's hard to tell exactly how many soldiers deserted, but panel 8 makes it look like at least two-thirds are abandoning their posts. If they'd had their full numbers, they might have been able to hold the breach until reinforcements (whether that means troops or higher-level characters) showed up. Redcloak's mammoth could probably have broken the lines regardless, but if enough soldiers had held the line to buy time for PCs to get there, it would have forced him into a showdown without giving him a chance to personally invade the palace first (and the spells he used could have easily turned the cleric battle).

Also, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned the ninja infiltration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html) of the palace yet. Perhaps, if Kubota wasn't busy spending all of his resources on murdering Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), there might have been some high-level ninjas available to put their high Spot checks to Azure City's service by preventing the secondary defenses from falling instantly. The first breach wouldn't have been a battle-ending disadvantage if the palace keep had held.

Rogar Demonblud

2014-03-14, 06:28 PM

After the forces had been exhausted and resources had been expended elsewhere. If Redcloak had sent the entire army at the breach right away, they would have been milling about outside the walks while the front lines were held down by a giant Hinjo and Roy and V's lightning bolts would have been killing hundreds of goblins with each shot.

They'd probably have still won, and maybe there are factors I'm not considering, but accusing Redcloak of bring a bad tactician because he didn't immediately pull his forces to charge the breach is wrong.

Interesting mathematical question--how many hobgoblins would fit into the blast radius of a fireball cast by a ~13th level Invoker?

Keltest

2014-03-14, 06:49 PM

Interesting mathematical question--how many hobgoblins would fit into the blast radius of a fireball cast by a ~13th level Invoker?

Depends. Are they allowed to stand on each other's shoulders? and are they considered "in" if theyre only partially encompassed?

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-14, 07:02 PM

Interesting mathematical question--how many hobgoblins would fit into the blast radius of a fireball cast by a ~13th level Invoker?
About as many archons as can dance on the head of a flumph.

Rodin

2014-03-15, 12:32 AM

factotum

2014-03-15, 02:30 AM

If the rest of the Sapphire Guard had been dispersed along the walls or used as a strategic reserve (to say, plug the breach), would that have made a difference?

That's actually an interesting question. It seems unlikely that a paladin of the Guard has to die in the throne room to join the ranks of the Ghost-Martyrs, so having them out on the walls would have worked almost as well as having them in the throne room, provided Hinjo made the assumption that the external battle was already lost by the time Xykon got in there. Maybe the fact he left the Guard there means he was anticipating the possibility of Xykon bypassing the defences in the way he did? If so, that would actually make him a pretty darned good commander!

MagicalMeat

2014-03-15, 02:52 AM

Anarion

2014-03-15, 09:31 AM

I've seen a few people say that the Order could have stuck together and beaten Xykon, and ergo won the battle. I rather disagree with that.

Yes, they could have beaten Xykon. How well they would have fared is anyone's guess, but it still seems likely that they would have taken a fair beating in the process.

However, that army is still out there. Plus, it would be much bigger than it was, because the Order wasn't manning the outer defenses. Let's look at the battle on the walls - they lost, and the Order was there for that. On a battlefield the size of the city, even a high-level group of adventurers will only have a local effect.

Xykon also pretty much didn't affect the course of the battle for the city outside of killing Roy. The Sapphire Guard never left the throne room, the dragon did for Saangwaan and its head killed the Death Knight.

The question I have is: Was the Sapphire Guard neccessary in the throne room? There was evidently a host of spirits already there to assist Soon, and the regular spirits don't seem to bother him that much due to the level difference. If the rest of the Sapphire Guard had been dispersed along the walls or used as a strategic reserve (to say, plug the breach), would that have made a difference?

The fact that Xykon did not affect the battle was a point in the good guys favor. He knows cloudkill, among other things, so if he wanted, he was perfectly capable of taking that breach in the wall all by himself.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Hinjo sent them there specifically so that hey would fight Xykon, then die, then fight Xykon some more. If the Sapphire Guard was on the wall, less of them would have died, and thus less of them would fight Xykon. Basically, for each Paladin sent into the Throne Room, two Paladins would fight Xykon. Am I making sense?

I did get the sense from Hinjo's comment "did you wonder why only paladins were in that room" that maybe the magic that summons Soon only works if the defenders are all paladins, or something of that nature.

factotum

2014-03-15, 04:14 PM

I did get the sense from Hinjo's comment "did you wonder why only paladins were in that room" that maybe the magic that summons Soon only works if the defenders are all paladins, or something of that nature.

He told Durkon the exact reason why only paladins were in the room--he said they were there as reinforcements. There is no "magic" per se involved here; the only power that allowed the paladins to come back as the Ghost-Martyrs was their oath to protect the Gate, as Soon said to Mike when he spoke to her as she lay dying. (This is what the whole "The honour of a paladin is unbreakable, even by death itself" thing comes down to).

The Pilgrim

2014-03-15, 05:54 PM

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Hinjo sent them there specifically so that hey would fight Xykon, then die, then fight Xykon some more. If the Sapphire Guard was on the wall, less of them would have died, and thus less of them would fight Xykon. Basically, for each Paladin sent into the Throne Room, two Paladins would fight Xykon. Am I making sense?

Yep.

In #449, Durkon notices that Xykon is in the Throne Room, and suggest they all should rush there, as the Paladins would be too weak to hold Xykon. Hinjo agrees that the Paladins won't stop Xykon, and we are revealed the truth about the defense of the Gate: Soon is there, and all the dead paladins would raise as Ghost Spirits to reinforce him. Hinjo expected that Soon and the Martyrs would be enough to slain Xykon. And he was right. Forward to #459, when Redcloak gets into the room, we see Xykon overpowered by the Ghosts.

Back in #447, Redcloak gets pissed as Xykon is getting into the Throne Room solo, instead of waiting for the army. Redcloak was right, getting into the Throne Room alone was a mistake that almost got Xykon - and Redcloak - killed.

The Azurites could have exploited that mistake if Hinjo had ordered the Order to rush into the Throne Room when Durkon suggested it, in #449. At that point, the Paladins were already killed, so it was a matter of making it there before Redcloak did.

Instead of that, they made a rush to the breach, which was totally unsucessful and innefective. They couldn't even hold Redcloak at bay, he got into the court yard without facing any opposition. Hinjo and the remnants of the Order got pinned by the mooks and failed to affect the battle at the Throne Room in any way.

If they had rushed to the Throne Room in #449, when Redcloak hadn't still ordered the Charge on the Breach, they would have made it to the throne room in time to help Soon kill Xykon, then slay Redcloak as he entered the room, and stopping Miko from blowing the Gate (whose explosion killed a lot of azurite soldiers, and left the rest shaken, scattered, and routed).

Sure, they would still have a bajillion hobbos roaming around the City. But, with the enemy army leaderless, without the Lich, and with no one powerful enough to be a threat for a party of high-level heroes, the azurites would have managed to get the city rid of goblinoids in a few days.

NihhusHuotAliro

2014-03-15, 06:47 PM

Yep.

....

Ah, so if Halley had rolled natural twenties on her arrows, and if they'd hit Redcloack...

The Pilgrim

2014-03-15, 07:58 PM

Ah, so if Halley had rolled natural twenties on her arrows, and if they'd hit Redcloack...

If they had rushed to the Throne Room in #449, they wouldn't have needed to leave anything to chance.

Anyway, OP asked if the Azurites ever had a chance. Reply is, yes, they did. They were one smart tactical move from actually winning. And not an one too difficult to figure out.

Rodin

2014-03-15, 08:41 PM

I guess I just tend to side with O-Chul in the argument "The Order vs. 20,000 Hobgoblins = Dead Order", particularly since by that point both V and Durkon were out of spells, Roy was dead, and Belkar was incapable of fighting within the city walls. That leaves the actual fighting to Durkon (meleeing without spells), Haley (having to try and fight a ranged battle against hundreds of opponents at once) and Elan (woeful at direct combat).

The Azurite army was already starting to break by that point, and if the Order had gone to the keep Hinjo would be dead (no Durkon to save him) and there would be a Huecuva running riot among the troops as well as everything else.

They might have saved the world by taking out Xykon and Redcloak, but Azure City was most definitely toast.

SavageWombat

2014-03-15, 09:33 PM

Interesting mathematical question--how many hobgoblins would fit into the blast radius of a fireball cast by a ~13th level Invoker?

44. I counted. Twice.

David Argall

2014-03-16, 01:22 AM

There's also the fact that there were constant attacks on the walls.

I could see that being the reason why there's very few troops near the breach here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html

they've all been drained, a little at a time, to keep the walls manned.
But this still gets back to Hinjo not sending reserves he had to the breach.
Right, there are few troops near the breach. But there are lots of troops behind the rest of the wall. No matter what reason we give for the shortage of troops, we have the fact that the breach was the most threatened point, and thus where there should be troops instead of empty space.
This is one reason I speculate about Hinjo being a new and unready commander. It is easy to see a wall section commander not wanting to release his reserves even tho they are needed more elsewhere because he does need or may need them. But a wall commander must think of the whole wall, and move reserves from the mildly threatened sector to the seriously threatened. So we can see Hinjo still thinking as a sub-commander when he has been elevated to top command, and the breach falling as a result.

If they had rushed to the Throne Room in #449, when Redcloak hadn't still ordered the Charge on the Breach, they would have made it to the throne room in time to help Soon kill Xykon, then slay Redcloak as he entered the room,
Now a serious tactical problem is that Redcloak would not have entered the room. When X is killed, his soul goes directly to his hidey-hole, where he can immediately communicate with Redcloak. So if X is killed, Redcloak knows not to enter and he sets up camp until X regenerates in a few days.

and stopping Miko from blowing the Gate (whose explosion killed a lot of azurite soldiers, and left the rest shaken, scattered, and routed).
They were shaken, scattered, and routed before Miko did her thing. In fact, destroying the gate may have been tactically quite useful. We look at 463 and we see the area around the castle was almost entirely orange. There were not enough defenders still alive to spit at. So Miko killed a very large number of hobgoblins. and almost no Azure City troops.

Sure, they would still have a bajillion hobbos roaming around the City. But, with the enemy army leaderless, without the Lich, and with no one powerful enough to be a threat for a party of high-level heroes, the azurites would have managed to get the city rid of goblinoids in a few days.
The evidence we have in no way supports this. The Azure City army was destroyed or fled. So all the defenders would have would be a small force in the throne room. [Recall here that "run away" has always been a prime tactic of the Order. They are not going to be able to chase off an entire army. They may be able to win a long siege, but even that is dicy.

factotum

2014-03-16, 02:49 AM

If they had rushed to the Throne Room in #449, they wouldn't have needed to leave anything to chance.

Really? Xykon was in the throne room throwing lightning and fireballs around. The Ghost Martyrs only had a 50% chance of being hit by those, so they're fine. The Order and Hinjo don't have that advantage, so they get fried in pretty short order.

Now, let's say for the sake of argument that they somehow survive that and manage to defeat Xykon. They hold the throne room. Big whoop--the rest of the city still gets overrun with hobgoblins, Xykon regenerates inside a week, and assuming the Order and Hinjo haven't died of thirst yet, goes back in and finishes the job. Chances are that one of the defenders would have to "do a Miko" and destroy the Gate to prevent it falling into the enemy's hands, only in this scenario, the entire Order dies doing that.

On the plus side, Familicide never happens and the entire Draketooth clan is still there to defend the pyramid when Xykon shows up; unfortunately, because he knows exactly where it is, all their clever illusions and what-have-you completely fail to stop him, so he rips through them in pretty short order. The trap in the corridor wouldn't stop him because undead are immune to mind-affecting spells, so he goes right to the Gate and he and Redcloak do the ritual. Game over.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-16, 03:14 AM

44. I counted. Twice.
Is that how many can fit inside the volume of a fireball or how many fit within a great circle of the fireball drawn on the battlemat?

Vladier

2014-03-16, 04:34 AM

On the plus side, Familicide never happens and the entire Draketooth clan is still there to defend the pyramid when Xykon shows up; unfortunately, because he knows exactly where it is, all their clever illusions and what-have-you completely fail to stop him, so he rips through them in pretty short order. The trap in the corridor wouldn't stop him because undead are immune to mind-affecting spells, so he goes right to the Gate and he and Redcloak do the ritual. Game over.

Makes me actually wonder if Xykon, Redcloak or MitD can call double-bluff. The latter is unlikely because in this scenario there would probably be no O-Chul to unleash his cerebral potential, X is probably too lazy to even think about that and too angry that there is no Gate for him to see, but Redcloak perhaps has enough wisdom and knowledge of the elements to think about using a lead sheet.

The Pilgrim

2014-03-16, 05:00 AM

Really? Xykon was in the throne room throwing lightning and fireballs around. The Ghost Martyrs only had a 50% chance of being hit by those, so they're fine. The Order and Hinjo don't have that advantage, so they get fried in pretty short order.

Xykon was almost dead when Redcloak entered the scene and casted harm on him. After that, even with Redcloak rebuking the Ghost Martyrs, Soon was able to overpower both of them.

So, the azurites needed just one small push to tip the balance there. And even if Xykon began blasting the Order away, we know Haley is pretty much inmune to any spell that grants a reflex saving throw.

Anyway, Hinjo and the Order doesn't even need to get into the throne room, they just need to guard the entrance and make sure no one gets in there until Soon finishes Xykon.

Now, let's say for the sake of argument that they somehow survive that and manage to defeat Xykon. They hold the throne room. Big whoop--the rest of the city still gets overrun with hobgoblins

Xykon is destroyed, Redcloak is dead. The Order is not split and Roy can be resurrected the next day. Even if they can't just go around killing hobbos the following days, no lich means that Azure's allies are not afraid of coming to the rescue if requested.

Anyway, my point is that the Azurites could still win the war at a point so advanced as #449. If smarter tactical choices had been made earlier (like recalling V after she cast the mass enlarge person, so she could help battle Xykon, Roy not facing Xykon alone, the Order rushing to the breach instead that fighting in the walls, etc...) they may have been able to contain the hobbos outside the city.

BenjCano

2014-03-16, 07:38 AM

Anyway, my point is that the Azurites could still win the war at a point so advanced as #449. If smarter tactical choices had been made earlier (like recalling V after she cast the mass enlarge person, so she could help battle Xykon, Roy not facing Xykon alone, the Order rushing to the breach instead that fighting in the walls, etc...) they may have been able to contain the hobbos outside the city.

Except for the fact that, y'know, they were scripted to lose the war so that the Giant could advance the story along the path he desired.

Keltest

2014-03-16, 07:45 AM

Except for the fact that, y'know, they were scripted to lose the war so that the Giant could advance the story along the path he desired.

I wish people would stop saying that. Obviously its a comic therefore they were going to lose. That's not the point. Were discussing if Azure City could, with the resources we knew it had against the resources we knew the hobgoblins had, have survived the assault. Not would have, could have.

BenjCano

2014-03-16, 08:13 AM

I wish people would stop saying that. Obviously its a comic therefore they were going to lose. That's not the point. Were discussing if Azure City could, with the resources we knew it had against the resources we knew the hobgoblins had, have survived the assault. Not would have, could have.

Stop saying what, that this sort of speculation is ultimately useless because we aren't looking at a scenario in a war game or tabletop miniatures, but a visual representation of a fantasy narrative that takes place in a world based on the tropes and idioms of roll laying games?

Because this sort if speculation is ultimately pointless because of the above reasons. The actors in the Stickverse don't have agency. They're not sports players you can Monday-morning quarterback and explain how they could have won a game, if only.

This is a seven page thread dedicated to giving Jean Valjean advice about how he could have gotten away with stealing that loaf of bread without going to prison, despite the fact that going to prison was a neceassary catalyst for the story to progress as it did.

Keltest

2014-03-16, 08:20 AM

Stop saying what, that this sort of speculation is ultimately useless because we aren't looking at a scenario in a war game or tabletop miniatures, but a visual representation of a fantasy narrative that takes place in a world based on the tropes and idioms of roll laying games?

Because this sort if speculation is ultimately pointless because of the above reasons. The actors in the Stickverse don't have agency. They're not sports players you can Monday-morning quarterback and explain how they could have won a game, if only.

This is a seven page thread dedicated to giving Jean Valjean advice about how he could have gotten away with stealing that loaf of bread without going to prison, despite the fact that going to prison was a neceassary catalyst for the story to progress as it did.

Yes, exactly that. You aren't required to enjoy the topic like we do, but decrying it as pointless only serves to antagonize people needlessly.

Anarion

2014-03-16, 08:22 AM

This is a seven page thread dedicated to giving Jean Valjean advice about how he could have gotten away with stealing that loaf of bread without going to prison, despite the fact that going to prison was a neceassary catalyst for the story to progress as it did.

It's a seven page thread that treats the works as living and vibrant by suggesting that there were resources and alternate plans that could have led to a different story. It's a seven page thread that gives agency to the actions of individual characters like Miko, Hinjo, and Redcloak by directly attributing the success or failure of a massive undertaking to them.

To suggest that it's useless because this is the only story The Giant wanted to tell is, imo, insulting to the Giant. The thread exists because in telling the story, he did such a good job that we can clearly identify the major turning points and imagine how things might have been different. That's critical to the creation of a feeling of drama.

oppyu

2014-03-16, 08:30 AM

I say Jean Valjean's biggest mistake was trying to run. It clearly didn't work, and more than tripled his sentence. Also, why would he even need to steal? With his pipes, the dude could make enough cash to buy bread by singing in the street.

Also, people speculate because it's fun. Pointless, but fun.

BenjCano

2014-03-16, 08:36 AM

It's a seven page thread that treats the works as living and vibrant by suggesting that there were resources and alternate plans that could have led to a different story.

Yes, if Chris hadn't been revenge obsessed against Carrie, that prom would have gone very differently and the book would have turned out differently, likely to the detriment of Stephen King's writing career.

But a more worthy question to debate is why did the Giant feel it necessary for Azure City to lose the war in the way it did? What was accomplished narratively that would have been lost if he'd had the characters act differently?

ti'esar

2014-03-16, 09:37 AM

It's a seven page thread that treats the works as living and vibrant by suggesting that there were resources and alternate plans that could have led to a different story. It's a seven page thread that gives agency to the actions of individual characters like Miko, Hinjo, and Redcloak by directly attributing the success or failure of a massive undertaking to them.

To suggest that it's useless because this is the only story The Giant wanted to tell is, imo, insulting to the Giant. The thread exists because in telling the story, he did such a good job that we can clearly identify the major turning points and imagine how things might have been different. That's critical to the creation of a feeling of drama.

Can I sig this?

orrion

2014-03-16, 10:15 AM

Stop saying what, that this sort of speculation is ultimately useless because we aren't looking at a scenario in a war game or tabletop miniatures, but a visual representation of a fantasy narrative that takes place in a world based on the tropes and idioms of roll laying games?

Because this sort if speculation is ultimately pointless because of the above reasons. The actors in the Stickverse don't have agency. They're not sports players you can Monday-morning quarterback and explain how they could have won a game, if only.

This is a seven page thread dedicated to giving Jean Valjean advice about how he could have gotten away with stealing that loaf of bread without going to prison, despite the fact that going to prison was a neceassary catalyst for the story to progress as it did.

You play the Paladin class like Miko and Soon, don't you? Please try and remove the stick.

Under your view, I'd say 95% of the threads on this forum are pointless. Which is true, but pointing it out is just as pointless because we already know that.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-16, 11:02 AM

I say Jean Valjean's biggest mistake was trying to run. It clearly didn't work, and more than tripled his sentence. Also, why would he even need to steal? With his pipes, the dude could make enough cash to buy bread by singing in the street.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that was also illegal at the time. :smallwink:

BenjCano

2014-03-16, 11:27 AM

You play the Paladin class like Miko and Soon, don't you? Please try and remove the stick.

Under your view, I'd say 95% of the threads on this forum are pointless. Which is true, but pointing it out is just as pointless because we already know that.

Can we avoid ad hominem attacks, please? K, thanks.

Look, I have no problem with imagining how a story could be different. But this thread seems to miss the point. How would the narrative if the comic be different if Azure City had won? That's a hundred times more interesting than the precise combination if tactics and unit deployment that would have made such a victory possible.

Anarion

2014-03-16, 11:56 AM

Can I sig this?

Sure, if you'd like.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that was also illegal at the time. :smallwink:

Yeah, likely any kind of vagrancy at the time would have gotten him arrested. Though singing on the streets would have been a much shorter sentence than theft.

Can we avoid ad hominem attacks, please? K, thanks.

Look, I have no problem with imagining how a story could be different. But this thread seems to miss the point. How would the narrative if the comic be different if Azure City had won? That's a hundred times more interesting than the precise combination if tactics and unit deployment that would have made such a victory possible.

The thread doesn't miss the point, you just want to talk about something different.

That said, the fall of Azure City has done at least 3 major things.

1. It made the world a lot darker, creating a very real sense of threat that wasn't present when all we had was Xykon hanging out in a dungeon.
2. It established that team evil is working on a level of power that should be getting worldwide notice and nobody is doing anything about it: don't expect any cavalry.
3. It plausibly allowed for team evil to stay put while other stories were being told. Since Roy's death, and despite the teleport to the pyramid, Xykon and Co have not done anything directed towards pursuing the gates.

orrion

2014-03-16, 03:49 PM

{Scrubbed}

Roland St. Jude

2014-03-16, 06:55 PM

Sheriff: There's nothing wrong with this kind of speculation, but there are forum rules against, threadcrapping, vigilante modding, and flaming. Please keep it civil in this thread and drop the current line of discussion about whether this thread should exist.

SavageWombat

2014-03-16, 07:03 PM

Is that how many can fit inside the volume of a fireball or how many fit within a great circle of the fireball drawn on the battlemat?

The burst area of a fireball is specifically defined in 3.5. Hobgoblins can't (a) stack on top of each other or (b) fly, so it's one hob per square.

Now, if you use a mob of hobgoblins, you could cram more technical creatures into a 3x3 space - but that's DMG2 rules and not in SRD.

ericgrau

2014-03-16, 07:35 PM

Anarion

2014-03-16, 10:06 PM

Except the biggest reason Soon was a problem who nearly killed Xykon was because they didn't know about him. Also why they spent so long researching the next gate, which also turned out to be a problem.

The fight was looking pretty good for Azure at first even with Xykon among the enemies, but other unexpected powerful figures from both foes and traitors did turn the fight around quite a bit.

The fact that Xykon just made passes at the walls and then went to the throne room is a big part of this. The guy knows cloudkill and mass hold person. If he wanted, he could have taken the breach in the wall single-handedly.

Emanick

2014-03-16, 10:24 PM

The burst area of a fireball is specifically defined in 3.5. Hobgoblins can't (a) stack on top of each other or (b) fly, so it's one hob per square.

Now, if you use a mob of hobgoblins, you could cram more technical creatures into a 3x3 space - but that's DMG2 rules and not in SRD.

Normally I wouldn't get this technical, but since we're already in pretty technical territory...

a) Medium-sized creatures can share spaces with friendly creatures of similar size, so you could, theoretically, have more than one hobgoblin per square.
b) If there were, say, several vertical wooden floors stacked immediately above one another, with one hobgoblin on each floor, that could also lead to more hobgoblins within the blast radius.

SavageWombat

2014-03-16, 11:30 PM

Normally I wouldn't get this technical, but since we're already in pretty technical territory...

a) Medium-sized creatures can share spaces with friendly creatures of similar size, so you could, theoretically, have more than one hobgoblin per square.
b) If there were, say, several vertical wooden floors stacked immediately above one another, with one hobgoblin on each floor, that could also lead to more hobgoblins within the blast radius.

Ah but this is where it gets fun.

a) I don't think they can share spaces - I think they can squeeze past one another. But I haven't played 3.5 in a while. Certainly they can't fight normally sharing a square.

b) Wooden floors would block the expanding burst. We'd need to stack them on ladders, perhaps, or maybe hammocks. Someone check to see if the hobgoblins in the Death Knight's ramp are all dead.