Strongest T3

[EugeneVoid]

Psychic Warrior?
Factotum?

What is most likely the strongest base class T3?

[Piggy Knowles]

"Strongest" is hard to define, but if I had to pick...

If you're one of those who believes the spirit shaman is T3 instead of weak T1, I'd argue that it's probably the strongest.

Psychic Warrior can be right up there, though, mostly on the strength of Expanded Knowledge.

[Seerow]

Spirit Shaman if it gets classified there. (As Piggy said it should be T1, but some people will argue the Druid's spell list isn't expansive enough to qualify)

If Spirit Shaman isn't there, then Beguiler or Dread Necro. Both have 9th level spells with a very decent list. Of the two I'd lean towards Dread Necro, but I could see arguments for either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler, if he gets Magical Training for a spellbook plus Versatile Spellcaster. Per Rules Compendium he'll be able to learn more Wizard spells and add them to his spellbook just like a Wizard does. Versatile Spellcaster will allow him to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast a Wizard spell of one level higher that he's learned. It also has the added benefit of allowing him to access the next higher level of his Beguiler spell list earlier, plus he can learn higher level spells from Advanced Learning.

[Gavinfoxx]

Dread Necromancer?

Ardent?

[(Un)Inspired]

Maybe the Wilder? I know it's considered low tier 3 but it's really a super reduced version of a tier 2.

[Morcleon]

Beguiler, if he gets Magical Training for a spellbook plus Versatile Spellcaster. Per Rules Compendium he'll be able to learn more Wizard spells and add them to his spellbook just like a Wizard does. Versatile Spellcaster will allow him to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast a Wizard spell of one level higher that he's learned. It also has the added benefit of allowing him to access the next higher level of his Beguiler spell list earlier, plus he can learn higher level spells from Advanced Learning.

Seconding Beguiler, also because Shadowcraft Mage. :smallbiggrin:


Maybe the Wilder? I know it's considered low tier 3 but it's really a super reduced version of a tier 2.

Yeah, except it's super reduced to the point where it become effectively tier 3. :smalltongue:

[Shinken]

Beguiler. Or Spirit Shaman if you believe it fits there.

[Soranar]

Depends.

with prestige classes that expand your spell list, casting classes should dominate (especially shadowcraft mage)

but with a straight build, factotum has, arguably, a LOT of broken combos

[mabriss lethe]

Provisionally seconding Factotum: In terms of direct power, it doesn't come out on top. However, liberal applications of FOI can make the gods of action economy cry themselves to sleep at night.

Factotum also meshes very well with several different types of abilities. Things like ToB feats/ items (or anything type of addition that opens up unique options as a standard action) can turn one into a heck of a combatant with a lot more punch than it normally would have..

[Mithril Leaf]

Seconding Beguiler, also because Shadowcraft Mage. :smallbiggrin:



Yeah, except it's super reduced to the point where it become effectively tier 3. :smalltongue:

Get bestow curse to remove your Enervation class feature and suddenly some of those issues feel a bit less important. :smalltongue:

[Eonir]

Ardent?

Seconding this. Ardents go hard.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It depends on optimization level. Various casters in T3 can become T1 if you use the right PrCs, and Factotum can do some silly things as well.

Out of the box, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer sound about right.

[Silva Stormrage]

Beguiler, if he gets Magical Training for a spellbook plus Versatile Spellcaster. Per Rules Compendium he'll be able to learn more Wizard spells and add them to his spellbook just like a Wizard does. Versatile Spellcaster will allow him to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast a Wizard spell of one level higher that he's learned. It also has the added benefit of allowing him to access the next higher level of his Beguiler spell list earlier, plus he can learn higher level spells from Advanced Learning.

Couldn't Dread Necromancer pull this trick off?

I think DN is stronger than Beguiler without shadow craft mage. And if you are using shadow craft mage its less the beguiler and more of the shadow craft mage PRC doing the heavy lifting. DN's can really disrupt a campaign due to their undead armies and other abilities.

[CyberThread]

Mystic Ranger :D

[HunterOfJello]

Mystic Ranger :D

SotAO Mystic Ranger definitely the strongest T3 class in E6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Couldn't Dread Necromancer pull this trick off?

I think DN is stronger than Beguiler without shadow craft mage. And if you are using shadow craft mage its less the beguiler and more of the shadow craft mage PRC doing the heavy lifting. DN's can really disrupt a campaign due to their undead armies and other abilities.

A Dread Necro may be able to get a horde of undead minions, but that often depends on what the DM makes available to animate. A Beguiler can be just as strong in combat with the above trick, and outside of combat he'll seldom find a situation that he doesn't have exactly the right spell to solve.

[Silva Stormrage]

A Dread Necro may be able to get a horde of undead minions, but that often depends on what the DM makes available to animate. A Beguiler can be just as strong in combat with the above trick, and outside of combat he'll seldom find a situation that he doesn't have exactly the right spell to solve.

I agree with the whole DM limiting corpses aspect. But that can actually be fairly difficult to regulate fully. Once DN's are able to animate things with class levels (Create Undead for bone/corpse creatures). It becomes essentially impossible to send monsters that are threatening to the PC's but aren't super powerful minions. The only way to do that is send creature's whose HD is massively inflated.

Though still what about the above trick is something DN's can't do? Does it cast the spells off of the int score of the caster? I am unfamiliar with the trick to be honest.

Also Beguilers have the problem of having a lot of creatures being immune to their spells. Mind affecting immunity is fairly common mid/high levels. Lower levels they are much better but I think DN's overtake them at 8th-12th level.

[Jeff the Green]

"Strongest" is hard to define, but if I had to pick...

If you're one of those who believes the spirit shaman is T3 instead of weak T1, I'd argue that it's probably the strongest.

Psychic Warrior can be right up there, though, mostly on the strength of Expanded Knowledge.

I tend to say that it's tier 2. Normally being prepared disqualifies it, but the Druid list without wildshape and animals to buff has far fewer plot-bombs. It's akin to Wu Jen.

I'm going to say it's probably a tie between factotum, psiwar, and beguiler. Psiwar's the most powerful combatant, factotum the best at imperfectly mimicking higher tiers (notably, it's the best diviner), and beguiler at everything that isn't direct (and can hold its own in direct confrontation too). DNs might be in there, but it's dependent on the yep of campaign. Only fighting humans? Sorry, you might as well play a warmage with a worse spell list.

Shadowcraft Mage doesn't count, though, because PrCs have their own tier modifier. If PrCs counted, all the fixed-list casters would be tier 1+ because of rainbow servant.

[Aliek]

Versatile spellcaster aside, I'd give that to the Psychic Warrior. Then it'd be more about expanded knowledge, but I'd give a "lesser cheese" award to that.
Most mid-op games the expanded knowledge would fly, while versatile spellcaster+beguiler/dread necro... [Citation needed, I know]

But then, I'm a bit biased about psywar, so take that with a grain of salt. Or a bit more, just watch out for blood pressure :smallbiggrin:

Eh... While EK:Metamorphosis, minor creation and astral construct is great and all... There's quite a few gems on his power list, both for in and out of combat utility.

[CyberThread]

binder...?

[Rebel7284]

If Cunning Surge can be used more than once a turn, I would say factotum without a question. Otherwise I would go with Beguiler. It has a VERY strong spell list right out of the box that is applicable to way more situations than Dread Necros options of a. Can I kill it with an undead army? b. Can I kill it with fear effects? 3. Can I kill it via negative energy?

[137beth]

I've encountered people who believe the pathfinder Summoner base class is tier 3. If that counts, I'd call it the top of tier three.
It has the POWER comparable to tier 2s. I think it also has the versatility to be a tier 2, but if for some reason it gets classified as tier 3, then it's possibly the strongest in the tier. The only other viable contestants I can think of are beguiler, dread necromancer, and spirit shaman. MAYBE factotum.

[(Un)Inspired]

The issue is complicated by optimization levels. The original tier system assumes equal levels of optimization across the board.

If we assume that a beguiler or a Dread necromancers can take Rainbow servant then they can have all cleric spell and they're instantly better than any other tier 3.

Otherwise a wilder has access to the equivalents of genesis, timestop and wish really easily.

[Zaydos]

My experience with Factotum/DN/Beguiler has been at relatively low levels (topping at about 9 for the latter two and lower for Factotum) and I'd say Beguiler has been the strongest. Vow of Nonviolence helps that out a bit, too.

Can't say for high level games.

[Story]

Yeah, except it's super reduced to the point where it become effectively tier 3. :smalltongue:

Even with the Educated variant (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)?


binder...?

Binder is tier 2 if online vestiges are allowed.

[Seerow]

Binder is tier 2 if online vestiges are allowed.

And if they're not, it's not on the same playing field power wise as any of the full caster 'tier3' characters.

[Metahuman1]

binder...?

Given that all he needs is access to a few more vestiges then what's in Tome of Magic to out of the box leave Tier 3 for Tier 2, I'll second this.

I'll also throw a hat in for Factotum, there just so damn good at loading up on insane tricks.


I kinda a Psi-Warrior, a class that is suppose to be middle of Tier 3 incarnate, matched only for this by the Crusader, would not qualify.

That said, maybe the Incarnate or the Totemist have a trick somewhere worth considering?

[Silva Stormrage]

My experience with Factotum/DN/Beguiler has been at relatively low levels (topping at about 9 for the latter two and lower for Factotum) and I'd say Beguiler has been the strongest. Vow of Nonviolence helps that out a bit, too.

Can't say for high level games.

Ya beguilers have more tricks they can pull at lower levels. DN's need animate dead which they get at 8th (8TH!) so their tricks take a bit to get going. They are stronger mid and late game than beguilers who start to fall off due to mind affecting immunity.

[Seerow]

Given that all he needs is access to a few more vestiges then what's in Tome of Magic to out of the box leave Tier 3 for Tier 2, I'll second this.

Those "few more vestiges" get him there because the ones in the web enhancement are so much better than anything in the actual book.

Seriously, Summon Monster X (where X = whatever version is level appropriate for you) at will is going to get you Tier 2 basically by itself, by virtue of Summon Monster being one of the most versatile spells around.

[Kennisiou]

Beguiler, Bard, and Factotum are probably the three strongest T3's. Dread Necro may have l9 spells, but its list is pretty small and it gets shoehorned really hard into undead minionmancy. While it gets a lot of tools to do that and be very effective at it and being an effective undead minionmancer lets you do a lot of things, it's still generally no as flexible as the bard's more diverse spell list + skill list allows them to accomplish, or what the beguiler and factotum can accomplish through their spells, skills, and class features.

Anyone who thinks Spirit Shaman is T3 is silly. The class has a whole t1 spell list, strong access to it, and occasionaly useful class features. It's at least T2 by virtue of being better than the favored soul since it has better class features, a better spell list (Druid spells > cleric spells without domains), and access to a full list (albeit with an odd mechanic to gain that access). It's like the Ardent: it's either hanging out with Sha'ir and Death Master at the bottom of T1 or they're the very top of T2 with Sorceror and Shugenja.

But yeah, Beguiler, Bard, and Factotum could all honestly be considered T2 in my book. At higher-op tables, bards and factotums easily keep up with the classes at the bottom of T2 assuming they're not pulling multiclass/prestige class shenanigans, which I'm not counting since in those instances it's the prestige class that's doing the heavy lifting generally (so Binder with online vestiges and Favored Soul are roughly on-par with bard, factotum, and beguiler imo). As for Psychic warrior... I feel like Psywar is a bit worse than bard and factotum, but it's definitely, like, right there at the top of T3 with those others.

[icefractal]

Wilder is in an odd space, where in combat, they may be T3 - although I would still call them T2 on the basis that they don't have to surge. But out of combat, they're T1 - Psychic Reformation gives them even more versatility than a Wizard, and Wild Surge lets them do things at an earlier level than anyone else. For example, if you want to mind control a non-humanoid, Wilder can do it the earliest.

In PF, I'd call them solidly T1 - Wild Surge failure change doesn't increase with level, Student's Surge means a fail isn't that bad, and Psychic Reformation is free once you can hit 13 PP (somewhere between 8th-10th level, depending on items).

[TiaC]

Wilder is in an odd space, where in combat, they may be T3 - although I would still call them T2 on the basis that they don't have to surge. But out of combat, they're T1 - Psychic Reformation gives them even more versatility than a Wizard, and Wild Surge lets them do things at an earlier level than anyone else. For example, if you want to mind control a non-humanoid, Wilder can do it the earliest.

In PF, I'd call them solidly T1 - Wild Surge failure change doesn't increase with level, Student's Surge means a fail isn't that bad, and Psychic Reformation is free once you can hit 13 PP (somewhere between 8th-10th level, depending on items).

Even in 3.5 I'd say they are very nice as they can just manifest from power stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown). They also have access to almost every one of psionic's many tricks.

Beguilers can use minion chaining to break the game. This also gets around mind-affecting immunity.

DNs can use their Planar Binding spells to get around a lack of corpses.

Also, all three can use list-expanting tricks to win, as they all have 9ths.

[CyberThread]

but..but the crusader...gets....gets unlimited spells!

[StreamOfTheSky]

Beguiler and Dread Necro, because they don't even belong in tier 2 to begin with. No contest.

Getting the actually-tier-2's out of the way, I'd probably say a Bard. Just so much optimization that can be done, to both inspire courage and the casting. A bard w/ a non-fire draconic bloodline drgonfire inspiration + inspre courage enhancers (song of the heart, inspirational boost spell, etc...) that goes into Sublime Chord is pretty impressive. Takes a while to get everything together with the dual focus and all, but the low levels are hardly painful.

[Snowbluff]

I agree with Beguiler and Dread Necro. I'd say Beguiler wins out thanks to a better casting stat and better skills.

[Petrocorus]

I second the Beguiler over the DN, because of is Int focus and better skill list and skill points. His spell list allows him to go minionmancy too with Dominate and the like, and he has much more out of combat abilities. In combat, the player need to be a bit more imaginative with illusions or to go PrC but he can clearly stand his ground. He also probably has more room for multiclassing / PrCing.

I'm also partial to the Bard, much room for optimisation and combination. And the Sublime Chord give access to 9th level spell from the best spell list and so make him not far from the Beguiler in term of spellcasting. It's also the best class for Diplomancing and Leadership abuse. Thrallherd PrC excepted.


Get bestow curse to remove your Enervation class feature and suddenly some of those issues feel a bit less important. :smalltongue:
Wait..you use Bestow Curse to remove a penalty?!


Seconding this. Ardents go hard.
If we account for the Mind's Eye enhancement, namely, Substitute Powers, the Ardent is definitely not T3. With a lenient DM, he can end up with a better powers known list than any Psion, despite having less than 2/3 of his powers known.
Even without it, i would probably be low T2, they can access to really powerful powers with the right mantle choice.



it's either hanging out with Sha'ir and Death Master at the bottom of T1 or they're the very top of T2 with Sorceror and Shugenja.

I would say that Sha'Ir is not low in T1. They have access to the same raw powers that the wizard, with more spell per day and a few divine spell, among whom(*) Miracle and Freedon of Movement. A easier way to "learn" them and some very interesting PrCing option. I would say the Sha'Ir is only a little below the wizard.

(*) I'm really not sure of the grammar there. Should i use "which" or something else?

[CyberThread]

What interesting PRC options does it have

[Petrocorus]

What interesting PRC options does it have

Most divine casting PrC which doesn't ask for a specific spell, and dual casting PrC which don't have a very specific requirement.
The Geomancer for example work very well on a Sha'Ir.
This also allows to make some cool gish builds.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm also partial to the Bard, much room for optimisation and combination. And the Sublime Chord give access to 9th level spell from the best spell list and so make him not far from the Beguiler in term of spellcasting.

Yup, I love Sublime Chord. Unfortunately, it's an extremely late bloomer in terms of spell level access and spells/day, so I don't think it quite gets bard to tier 2. Very high tier 3, certainly, but over all 20 levels, Beguiler's still the stronger class, easily.

[chaos_redefined]

Psychic Warrior or Warblade. They have the highest strength scores, so must be the strongest.

On a more serious note... Define "strength". Then we can talk.

To clarify... a Warblade is really good at combat, and has a couple of out-of-combat tricks to help, but I can see a valid argument for dropping him to tier 4 due to lack of out-of-combat versatility. On the other hand, a factotum always has something to contribute, but never as much as someone dedicated to that area. So, in combat, a warblade contributes a hell of a lot more than a factotum, but out of combat, a factotum contributes a hell of a lot more than a warblade. In other words, a warblade is "stronger" in combat, but a factotum is "stronger" out of combat.

[Petrocorus]

Yup, I love Sublime Chord. Unfortunately, it's an extremely late bloomer in terms of spell level access and spells/day, so I don't think it quite gets bard to tier 2. Very high tier 3, certainly, but over all 20 levels, Beguiler's still the stronger class, easily.

Oh, i concur, i said "not far", i didn't say "equal". The spellcasting of the Beguiler is still better. The Bard/ Sublime Chord make a little bit for it with the access to some game breaking spell but the spells known/ spell per day are really a problem.


Psychic Warrior or Warblade. They have the highest strength scores, so must be the strongest.


On a related note, what the Playground think is the best between those two, PsyWar and Warblade, they're probably the two best melee classes, but which is the best?

[Rubik]

If Cunning Surge can be used more than once a turn, I would say factotum without a question.I'm fairly sure any manifester with access to Synchronicity and a few metapsionics (not to mention Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer) could beat out a factotum of equal level fairly handily.

[edit]
On a related note, what the Playground think is the best between those two, PsyWar and Warblade, they're probably the two best melee classes, but which is the best?Discounting the infinite d2 damage trick and Iron Heart Surging out the sun, I'd say the psychic warrior by a landslide. It's not hard at all to push it into T2 territory (basically, Expanded Knowledge for Metamorphosis will do it on its own), and the psywar has a huge number of crazy tricks to pick from, just with its own power list, with more coming from the psion's list. And then there's item creation, and some of the fun metapsionic feats. That's a level of versatility that warblades don't get, and those powers are potentially far more...uh...potent, as well.

[137beth]

I'm fairly sure any manifester with access to Synchronicity and a few metapsionics (not to mention Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer) could beat out a factotum of equal level fairly handily.

[edit]Discounting the infinite d2 damage trick and Iron Heart Surging out the sun, I'd say the psychic warrior by a landslide. It's not hard at all to push it into T2 territory (basically, Expanded Knowledge for Metamorphosis will do it on its own), and the psywar has a huge number of crazy tricks to pick from, just with its own power list, with more coming from the psion's list. And then there's item creation, and some of the fun metapsionic feats. That's a level of versatility that warblades don't get, and those powers are potentially far more...uh...Powerfully potent, as well.
Fixed!
For in-combat straight melee, I'm actually going to say that the warblade is better than the psychic warrior out-of-the-box, though. It takes decent optimization before the psywar can outclass the warblade in melee. That could be biased by me having more experience with the warblade, though.
It's everything except melee where the psychic warrior pulls ahead. As far as versatility and tier classifications go, psychic warrior is far ahead of the warblade: the psywar can feasibly reach tier 2, while the warblade has to work not to fall into tier 4.

[Manly Man]

Out-of-the-box, I'd say that PsyWar is actually more equivalent to the Swordsage, in terms of things like versatility. They're both proof that a full BAB is completely overrated, if you ask me, since even if they have a particular focus, there's always some way for them to be contributive to the party, whether it's the PsyWar with their powers, especially if Expanded Knowledge is involved, and the Swordsage with the sheer amount of maneuvers they have (which allows for a much broader array of utility maneuvers), and their great skill points and selection. A Warblade may beat them out in terms of sheer power to unleash in the blink of an eye, instead of spending time and a finite resource on buffing (PsyWar) or having to decide which particular tactic to go with for each particular battle (Swordsage), but that's pretty much the only function that they're pretty much solidly expected to beat them out with.

As for the original question, I'll say Bard, since there are so many ways you can go with them, and the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are debatable third-tier, so unless we come to a unanimous decision on that, I won't consider them as part of this headache.

[Rubik]

Fixed!
For in-combat straight melee, I'm actually going to say that the warblade is better than the psychic warrior out-of-the-box, though. It takes decent optimization before the psywar can outclass the warblade in melee. That could be biased by me having more experience with the warblade, though.
It's everything except melee where the psychic warrior pulls ahead. As far as versatility and tier classifications go, psychic warrior is far ahead of the warblade: the psywar can feasibly reach tier 2, while the warblade has to work not to fall into tier 4.Maybe my default level of optimization is higher than most, but it seems like psywar has a somewhat lower floor but a much higher ceiling, so the average is higher for them.

[Petrocorus]

Out-of-the-box, I'd say that PsyWar is actually more equivalent to the Swordsage, in terms of things like versatility. They're both proof that a full BAB is completely overrated, if you ask me,
Full BAB has been overrated, by the writers in particular. I'm not sure the 4th iterative attack is overrated, though.
However, as someone else pointed out, Full BAB is really nice to have when this is the only thing you have. Or at least when your class features are really not good enough by themselves, like the Monk.


since even if they have a particular focus, there's always some way for them to be contributive to the party, whether it's the PsyWar with their powers, especially if Expanded Knowledge is involved, and the Swordsage with the sheer amount of maneuvers they have (which allows for a much broader array of utility maneuvers), and their great skill points and selection.

I'm really fond of The Shadow Jaunt line of maneuvers. It potentially has a lot of utility uses.


As for the original question, I'll say Bard, since there are so many ways you can go with them, and the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are debatable third-tier, so unless we come to a unanimous decision on that, I won't consider them as part of this headache.

Personnaly, i wouldn't mind if they were put in T2, but i think it comes with the definition of T2 and T3. T2 is for the classes that have a game-nuking powers but not enough versatility to be considered T1. And T3 is for classes that have almost T1 versatility but not the raw power. That's why some people argue that the Spirit Shaman is low T1 or high T3 but not T2, because he has the full versatility of the Druid spell list but this list itself his maybe not powerful enough to be T1.

There also the problem that the Beguiler and the DN have spell lists which are purposely lacking in a domain or another. The Beguiler, for instance, out of the box, doesn't have many combat spells.

[Rubik]

One more point in the psywar's favor: it gains psionic/metapsionic/fighter bonus feats as a class feature. Which means that it gains access to Martial Study and Martial Stance as a class feature. Which means it can gains maneuvers much more easily than a warblade can gain psionics (Hidden Talent notwithstanding, since it's extremely limited).

[CyberThread]

Am going to go with warblade instead, It comes online early, unlike a psywar; and stays online. An all this talk about PRC and such, TOB PRC are some of the fiercest around.

[Rubik]

Am going to go with warblade instead, It comes online early, unlike a psywar; and stays online. An all this talk about PRC and such, TOB PRC are some of the fiercest around.Psywar/soul manifester? Psywar/thrallherd? Psywar/illithid slayer?

[CyberThread]

Psywar/soul manifester? Psywar/thrallherd? Psywar/illithid slayer?

1 Jade Phoneix

2. That is broken for everyone, period. That is like suggesting Initiate of the Seven Folds or Legacy Weapon PRC

3. Psinoic adaption of the jade phoenix