Vampires versus Werewolves...

[themourningstar]

Ok, please, please don't yell at me too loudly, or for too longly, if this has already been discussed, as my google fu is weak. I am in the process of designing a world, and while I don't personally have much interest in vampires or werewolves, some of my eventual players may, and I'd like for there to be an established back story set up for the two races to be at war, "Underworld" style.

What I'm wanting to know, is if anyone has done a homebrew write up for:

A) A system where lycans and vampires grow stronger as they grow older (basically an age category system)

B) A way for elder or special vampires to pass on their blood/ gifts to younger vampires, Anne Rice Style (I'm thinking this could be done with inheritable templates, where the only way to gain it is to receive the blood gift from an elder vampire)

C) A new write up for vampires and lycans that has them specifically designed to battle each other?

This is my fluff, if it matters:

Vampires were created in my world when the evil god Malbolgia was killed during a battle on the prime- a drop of his blood fell in one of the good female soldiers mouths, and part of his divine essence was so transferred.

Were beings were created by a neutral evil death goddess who doesn't like undeath, or the idea of immortal undead that would constantly grow more powerful.

Thank you tons in advance, and sorry for any typos or formatting crappiness.

[Skysaber]

You need to check out Complete Guide to Vampires, by Goodman games. They cover vampire aging, and in fact do an excellent job of turning the sack o' hit points with a name tag presented in the MM back into actual vampires.

As it happens, they also do a Complete Guide to Werewolves.

[HunterOfJello]

Ignoring all the LA and RHD involved. I'll point out a few options that vampires and werewolves would have.

There are multiple variants on vampires in Libris Mortis. There's also a prestige class or two for them that make them more dangerous (or vampirey). There are also some very good feats for undead in LM.

The ultimate in vampires is the Vampire Lord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a). I would strongly suggest against making more than one of these in your campaign setting. It would be appropriate for the original vampire that spawned all others in existence, but that's about it.

As for having vampires start out weak and slowly develop into full-fledged vampires over time, you can try out the Savage Species Online Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) for Vampires. It gives them abilities slowly and in nice stages.

~~~

Werewolves would have the nice advantage of entering into the Warshaper PrC while in one of their alternate forms. Warshaper is pretty awesome for melee pcs. They don't benefit from all the nice undead feat options that vampires would gain access to.

[themourningstar]

I was seeing the werewolves as being less powerful in general- I like the idea of vampires being much less common, and that much more powerful. Requiring a pack of werewolves to kill a vampire sounds appropriate.

Im familiar with Libris Mortis- it is probably my favorite source book. :) I can stat out my own age progressions and such, and as I said, I think small LA templates would be the best way to go for the Blood Gifts. I was just hoping I could find a place to start :D

I will check that book out for sure, Im sure there is a PDF version somewhere or other.

[The Ravensong]

Probably not what you want to hear, but if you want to run a vampires vs werewolves campaign... the White Wolf Vampire the Masquerade/Werewolf the Apocalypse may be a better bet just because that's what the system specializes in. Even if you don't end up using the system itself, it does have a wealth of material and ideas to sift through.

[atemu1234]

For the aging system, liberal use of the Evolved undead template from Libris Mortis, as to the blood gifts, I'm thinking maybe a points system. Like your character level x your charisma modifier, and you can gain powers from the usual blood transfer thingy, and it permanently takes points. When you gain a new power, you can voluntarily give up one or more powers to regain the points it cost. Each power would probably be a spell-like or supernatural ability, and as to werewolves, maybe make them a prestige class or just have them be rangers and druids, strong but not too strong, as it were.

Edit: Maybe make them both gain the benefits of Favored Enemy ranger ability against one another?

[themourningstar]

Ah, yeah, I would like for the vampires and werewolves to remain in the background of the main world, if possible. And no, Im not interested in WoD, though Houston does seem to have a good community for it.

All in all, it looks like no one has written up what Im looking for. Fuuuuuuudge.

[BWR]

The d20 version of Ravenloft campaign setting had age categories for vampires, based off the 2e Ravenloft supplement "Van Richten's Guide to Vampires". It's 3.0 but mostly useful. Other vampires types are treated in "Denizens of Darkness".
AFAIK there are no official products that allow increases of therianthropic abilities beyond classes like the Warshaper (Complete Warrior).
There's this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Lycanthropic_Paragon_%283.5e_Racial_Paragon_Class% 29)homebrew which might be interesting.

[Phelix-Mu]

Seconding Warshaper. In "Underworld," both lycans and vamps are portrayed as being very hard to kill without specialized weapons (to the point of it not even being worth trying). Warshaper gives some healing abilities and a boost to Con and Str that stacks with all other boosts, which all helps the normal DR/silver reliance of the lycans.

Another thing that lycanthropes have going for them is that they are biologicals. Natural lycans, in addition to being able to infect other eligible humanoids and giants, can have babies. Also, depending on interpretation, lycanthropes probably breed faster than humans and give birth to multiple offspring at once (as appropriate for the specific animal).

RAW vamps, on the other hand spread their infection mainly by creating vampire spawn (much easier to create these as a biproduct of fighting than true vamps). Vampire spawn, while certainly not weak, don't hold a candle to vamps, and in particular, are cookie cutters; all vampire spawn, no matter who or what they were before, turn into the same creature with the same abilities (pretty sure that's how it works).

[Phelix-Mu]

Seconding Warshaper. In "Underworld," both lycans and vamps are portrayed as being very hard to kill without specialized weapons (to the point of it not even being worth trying). Warshaper gives some healing abilities and a boost to Con and Str that stacks with all other boosts, which all helps the normal DR/silver reliance of the lycans.

Another thing that lycanthropes have going for them is that they are biologicals. Natural lycans, in addition to being able to infect other eligible humanoids and giants, can have babies. Also, depending on interpretation, lycanthropes probably breed faster than humans and give birth to multiple offspring at once (as appropriate for the specific animal).

RAW vamps, on the other hand spread their infection mainly by creating vampire spawn (much easier to create these as a biproduct of fighting than true vamps). Vampire spawn, while certainly not weak, don't hold a candle to vamps, and in particular, are cookie cutters; all vampire spawn, no matter who or what they were before, turn into the same creature with the same abilities (pretty sure that's how it works).

[Skysaber]

All in all, it looks like no one has written up what Im looking for. Fuuuuuuudge.

No, actually those two sources I'd named do a pretty good job of it. I was just paging back through them again and Complete Guide to Vampires has pretty complete rules for vampires gaining power as they age. All the way from recently turned vampires with incomplete abilities up to good, but not overpowering advantages for as they accumulate centuries.

It does the work of breaking down the standard vampire template into an 8 level class. Then adds on vampiric prestige classes.

It also reintroduces the weaknesses and powers that vampires had in myths. It has rules for how often and how much they have to feed (desperately needed in any roleplaying context). Rules for resisting their own evil natures (if they are so inclined). And, of course, it has different kinds of vampires so one sired by this guy will be very different from one sired by another.

There are also feats specifically tailored to vampires, modifying or improving abilities - or overcoming the odd weakness if you need to surprise a hunter.

And some of these feats do modify their spawn, so the master can scry on them at will, for example, or improving their strength score. It's not much, only those couple rather than dozens and dozens of feats granting abilities to offspring, but it certainly lays the groundwork for you to add more according to your taste and needs.

In fact, should you add more: Post 'em. I'd like to see them.

The Complete Guide to Werewolves is no less complete, introducing traits from the myths (werewolves that can only be killed by a silver bullet or equivalent? Really? Yes, they really have that in there), different breeds, feats and prestige classes for werewolves, as well as rules covering an amazing number of possible weaknesses drawn from out of myths.

Pick those up. I think you'll be profited thereby. In fact, I believe they'll do the bulk of your campaign background for you, if not all.

[Dr. Cliché]

Does the Complete Guide to Werewolves have any options for giving them Regeneration?

[Skysaber]

Does the Complete Guide to Werewolves have any options for giving them Regeneration?

Absolutely. It takes a feat (provided you are already a werewolf).

[Calimehter]

Not to be overly simplistic here, but is there anything wrong with just using the existing system of class levels as an 'aging' mechanic? Creatures that spend all their time fighting each other do tend to gain XP if they survive, so its built right into the system . . . and there's an awful lot of power and variety to choose from in the D&D class system.

[themourningstar]

Nice Skysaber- thank you very much for actually going to far as to go look into the books. :) I went to the Goodman games site, and got pdf versions of the "Complete Guide to Vampires" and "Aerial Adventure Guide: Sky Captain's Handbook" for a whopping total of $4.20. The artwork looks terrible, but they are well formatted. I will let you know what I think when I get done.

Thanks to everyone else for the advice as well- I will reread the warshaper PRC, it has been a while since I flipped through the CW.

Also, while the level system could be used to simulate age and growing puissance, I would rather have something that makes the vampires and lycans more unique. Thanks for the thought though. :)

The Complete Guide to Vampires was nice, more for the fluff than for anything mechanical- however, I loved the concept of the "Necrologist". Interesting class, just wish the mechanics were a bit more solid and focused. Again, thanks people!

[mabriss lethe]

I have a rather neat thought:

Take one of the alternate magic systems and graft it onto a vampire's HD progression. My thought would be something like bonus Incarnum feats to simulate the powers they've gained from all the souls they've devoured over the course of their lifetime. (if you hadn't planned on incorporating incarnum into your game, all the better. It makes it unique to the vampires.)

You could do something similar for werewolves, granting them bonus ToB feats as they gain HD, limit it to either a very small list of disciplines for all of them (like Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and Diamond Mind.) or have different bloodlines, each with its own appropriate list of disciplines.

[Ruethgar]

A little late to the party but I just had a thought with this in the back of my mind. Firstly, I tried to make Alucard before, didn't work very well, but well enough. He consumed entire people via a nearly at will spell(long explanation but it is an LA +0 race that is a staff and can regenerate charges 1d10 every decade). And there was not real limit to the number he could devour so add in Soul Eater and Life Drinker and you have the ability to go from regular vampire power to god in a flash of consumption as you devour the blood and souls of those within you(I think it was standard action).

But anyway, on to the idea I had. Treat them like E6, use savage progressions until they reach regular vamp/lycan power then let them select from a number of special feats for every 5k XP beyond that.

Make the Bat Bleed: Your natural attacks cause wounding 1 on vampires stackable up to their fast healing.

Bad Dog: Your natural attacks are considered silver against lycanthropes.

Expert Dodge: You gain a +2 dodge bonus to your AC(may take up to Dex mod times).

Ludicrous Speed: Go plaid with +10ft speed(may take up to Str mod times).

Ability Training: As E6

Ability Mastery: As E6

Ability Paragon: +2 to Mastered stat

[themourningstar]

I'm going to go ahead and redo them as I need for my world, using every idea that I liked from Underworld, Blade, and Anne Rice- all of whose vampires I like much more than I do DnD's.

I'm thinking that for vampires, who I have given the most thought to, I will make a comparitively weak base template, and then several other templates that can be stacked on top of the base template that can emulate new abilities and greater age. That way, a basic vampire is not overly powerful, while a fully templated one is a godling.

I also thought of making a vampire "race", that basically erased the afflicted person's old stats, but... Meh! We shall see.

Thanks for all the awesome ideas and thoughts.

[Keneth]

Mythic vampires (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-monsters/mythic-vampire) from Pathfinder are basically what normal vampires should be (on top of the base template which has no LA or RHD). Mythic ranks can simply be converted into age categories.

[Dr. Cliché]

Absolutely. It takes a feat (provided you are already a werewolf).

Hmm, when you said this, I thought you meant *actual* regeneration - rather than them regaining a wopping 1hp per minute. :smalltongue:

[Dexter156]

Behold the greatness of Dicefreaks.

http://dicefreaks.freeforums.org/dicefreaks-vampire-template-t40.html

You're welcome.

[Deathra13]

If you want to be really crazy look for the 3rd party book "Liber Vampyr" its not a great book, but its decent for the vamp side of things at least.