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Metahuman1
2014-03-08, 12:55 AM
http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=18

I know this comics had a couple of other threads in these forums that appear to have died. But, well, given the most recent update, I felt compelled to post a new one.

So, onto newest comic (Spoiler for if your not 100% up to date.)

ODIVALLUS!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! x.x :smalleek: :smallfurious:

Just, just, oh my god, I mean, I might have been ok if that had been Ardon, but, Odie? I, I don't have words.

Lizard Lord
2014-03-17, 01:51 PM
Honestly my reaction is that Odivallus is an idiot. He didn't hear any sounds of fighting on the ground by the time he came out (unless Ardon screaming counts but his screams were getting farther away and he knew the plan was to stay on the roof.) Plus he SAW how many zombies were in front of the building before the roof collapsed. There was nothing to indicate that leaving the building was a good idea. At the very least he should have peeked before just jumping out.

This is just the end of a long string of Odivallus making poorly thought out decisions. (Heck, his decisions are even more poorly thought out than Ardon's.)

Metahuman1
2014-03-17, 04:04 PM
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'd have slapped his player with a rule book ages before this and explained in no uncertain terms he was playing the wrong class for that play style, and even then he needed to tone it down.


But just cause I'd do that at the table doesn't mean I don't seriously weep for a character I liked, who was, in fact, the first character we saw in this comic, and had the punchline I to this day remember best and most fondly form this comic.

stsasser
2014-03-17, 09:24 PM
Honestly my reaction is that Odivallus is an idiot. He didn't hear any sounds of fighting on the ground by the time he came out (unless Ardon screaming counts but his screams were getting farther away and he knew the plan was to stay on the roof.) Plus he SAW how many zombies were in front of the building before the roof collapsed. There was nothing to indicate that leaving the building was a good idea. At the very least he should have peeked before just jumping out.

This is just the end of a long string of Odivallus making poorly thought out decisions. (Heck, his decisions are even more poorly thought out than Ardon's.)

I think all of almost all of Ardon's decisions are well-thought out. They just may not be particularly pleasant thoughts.

Are you buying that whole Ardon-just-stumbles-from-one-victory-after-another ruse by LSN? :smallconfused:

Seerow
2014-03-17, 09:33 PM
Honestly my reaction is that Odivallus is an idiot. He didn't hear any sounds of fighting on the ground by the time he came out (unless Ardon screaming counts but his screams were getting farther away and he knew the plan was to stay on the roof.) Plus he SAW how many zombies were in front of the building before the roof collapsed. There was nothing to indicate that leaving the building was a good idea. At the very least he should have peeked before just jumping out.

This is just the end of a long string of Odivallus making poorly thought out decisions. (Heck, his decisions are even more poorly thought out than Ardon's.)

I don't think anyone was really meant to see that update and think "This was a completely unavoidable situation for which Odivallus is not at fault". I mean there was about a dozen points where this outcome could have been avoided, starting with Odivallus siding with Ardon on killing the zombies. Had he sided with El, they would all already be back home safe.

That said, I doubt he's gone for good. No idea on the timeline for him coming back, but I put it at before the end of this arc.

Metahuman1
2014-03-17, 09:38 PM
And two be fair, wouldn't be the first time we were sure he was dead only to find out otherwise.

Lizard Lord
2014-03-17, 10:12 PM
I don't think anyone was really meant to see that update and think "This was a completely unavoidable situation for which Odivallus is not at fault". I mean there was about a dozen points where this outcome could have been avoided, starting with Odivallus siding with Ardon on killing the zombies. Had he sided with El, they would all already be back home safe.

That said, I doubt he's gone for good. No idea on the timeline for him coming back, but I put it at before the end of this arc.

Sure, but "This could be avoided" and "What an idiot" are not the same things. (And I don't think wanting to help the village was a bad thing.)

Edit: Perhaps I should rephrase. My reaction to Odivallus steping outside was "Odivallus you idiot." My reaction to seeing him get zombified was "Oh Crap".

Though I really hope someone other than Ardon (not that Ardon can't as well) calls him out on his decision making once he is among the living again.

Metahuman1
2014-04-01, 04:49 PM
Ok, So, it look's like Odi will survive and the others will get out in one piece, I suddenly feel concerned for the skull, Elle getting to punch Ardon in the face was AWESOME!, and I think she's really, truly getting fed up with him. Which might actually force him to start growing for real out of being a horrible sociopathic murderer. (I though he had been doing this up till the halfling awhile back.)

So, regarding the zombies and were there coming from, 3 things come to mind.

1: 45 is pulling strings trying to get Ardon Killed while saving face on the bet so that he can collect that bounty.

2: Ardon's dad is trying this as his warm up, possibly just to get a better feel on what his son and his son's party can do at this point in time. I like this one the least cause of that interlude we last saw him in though.

3: There just opponents in a quest meant for much higher level adventurers, and thus, all that happened was Ardon tried to steal glory, money and XP and bit off more then the party could chew in the process.

Dragolord
2014-04-02, 10:59 AM
Hmmm. Quite a spoiler-heavy thread so far. But then, I'm a hypocrite.

So Odivallus is alive? Any ideas how?

Neoriceisgood
2014-04-02, 11:58 AM
Hahahah such a spoiler heavy thread. :smallredface:

I'm not gonna put a spoiler in my comment though~

thereaper
2014-04-03, 12:16 AM
Is there a reason the thread title is misspelled?

Metahuman1
2014-04-03, 11:17 AM
Is there a reason the thread title is misspelled?

Because apparently my DM failed to inform me that he was running some kinda crit failure rules, and they applied to my perception check when I made the original post to make sure I had spelled everything right.


That having been said, thank you for pointing it out, I have now corrected it.

Dragolord
2014-04-14, 04:25 AM
Oh. Oh, this is definitely not good. Dear Pelor, they're actually ALIVE!?

Metahuman1
2014-04-14, 07:01 AM
Well ****. This isn't going to go over well.

Dragolord
2014-04-16, 12:52 AM
Hypocrite!
Soooo… anyone know what the curse/disease is? Some kind of kooky 4e thing or what?

Draconi Redfir
2014-04-16, 01:09 AM
my bet is that it's some kind of intelligence draining/targeting thing.

Metahuman1
2014-04-16, 03:06 PM
Hypocrite!
Soooo… anyone know what the curse/disease is? Some kind of kooky 4e thing or what?

Are you referring to Ardon, what's his face that's working with Ardon, or the Paladin that just gave Elle the most un-paladin like talking to I've heard this side of Miko?

Lizard Lord
2014-04-17, 12:00 AM
Are you referring to Ardon, what's his face that's working with Ardon, or the Paladin that just gave Elle the most un-paladin like talking to I've heard this side of Miko?

Meh. He is still all about saving people rather than just smiting evil/perceived evil. Most "bad" paladins, Miko included, tend to be the latter.

Dragolord
2014-04-17, 12:28 AM
Are you referring to Ardon, what's his face that's working with Ardon, or the Paladin that just gave Elle the most un-paladin like talking to I've heard this side of Miko?

Well, um, neither, admittedly. I meant myself a little bit. But is whatsisname the paladin really unpaladanical? It's an attitude that I haven't seen before,yes, but it's an interesting concept.

Oh, and now we know. And, someone called it. Cool.

Jekub
2014-04-17, 05:03 AM
Well, this explains why Odi was acting like an idiot. He was literally an idiot.

Metahuman1
2014-04-17, 02:52 PM
Well, um, neither, admittedly. I meant myself a little bit. But is whatsisname the paladin really unpaladanical? It's an attitude that I haven't seen before,yes, but it's an interesting concept.

Oh, and now we know. And, someone called it. Cool.

Um, yeah, saying "you suck at this not cause people died, but because the others will question why good aligned deity's would ever allow that to happen to them personally." is not really in keeping with the knight in shining armor paragon of morality theme of the paladin. Religious Zealot who is a Religious Zealot first champion of morality distant second? Sure. Paladin? Not so much.

If he'd been giving her a dressing down for following Ardon rather then breaking off from him with whomever she could get to come with her, or for not finding a way to Cow Ardon enough to keep him in line, or for just flat not thinking this through better before acting, that would have been in keeping with being a Paladin. This? No.

LoneStarNorth
2014-04-17, 07:58 PM
Um, yeah, saying "you suck at this not cause people died, but because the others will question why good aligned deity's would ever allow that to happen to them personally." is not really in keeping with the knight in shining armor paragon of morality theme of the paladin. Religious Zealot who is a Religious Zealot first champion of morality distant second? Sure. Paladin? Not so much.

If he'd been giving her a dressing down for following Ardon rather then breaking off from him with whomever she could get to come with her, or for not finding a way to Cow Ardon enough to keep him in line, or for just flat not thinking this through better before acting, that would have been in keeping with being a Paladin. This? No.

As to Erald's speech, I was trying to keep it from dragging on for multiple pages while still getting across what this new character is all about. The in-character explanation is that he can plainly see Ell felt terrible about what her party did, so he didn't see the need to rub it in her face. Instead he explained the larger ramifications (as he sees it) which she might not be aware of.

As for Ardon, they've only known him for ten minutes and paladins don't have detect evil in 4e. Give it time.

Dragolord
2014-04-18, 01:21 AM
Um, yeah, saying "you suck at this not cause people died, but because the others will question why good aligned deity's would ever allow that to happen to them personally." is not really in keeping with the knight in shining armor paragon of morality theme of the paladin. Religious Zealot who is a Religious Zealot first champion of morality distant second? Sure. Paladin? Not so much.

If he'd been giving her a dressing down for following Ardon rather then breaking off from him with whomever she could get to come with her, or for not finding a way to Cow Ardon enough to keep him in line, or for just flat not thinking this through better before acting, that would have been in keeping with being a Paladin. This? No.

I'm not going to turn this into a long debate about the first part, but if you remember, he thought that Ell wad the leader of the party. He didn't know that she was just following orders, he thought that she had made the decision to kill them all herself.


As to Erald's speech, I was trying to keep it from dragging on for multiple pages while still getting across what this new character is all about. The in-character explanation is that he can plainly see Ell felt terrible about what her party did, so he didn't see the need to rub it in her face. Instead he explained the larger ramifications (as he sees it) which she might not be aware of.

As for Ardon, they've only known him for ten minutes and paladins don't have detect evil in 4e. Give it time.

Holy Vecna, you read this? Keep on webcomic-ing!

Neoriceisgood
2014-04-18, 04:35 AM
As for Ardon, they've only known him for ten minutes and paladins don't have detect evil in 4e. Give it time.

Kudos on this one, I've always hated the whole trope regarding characters instantly "just knowing" if someone's evil/horrible.

Ardon's obviously a tool, but they've barely seen how bad he can be yet, at all.

Metahuman1
2014-04-18, 03:22 PM
As to Erald's speech, I was trying to keep it from dragging on for multiple pages while still getting across what this new character is all about. The in-character explanation is that he can plainly see Ell felt terrible about what her party did, so he didn't see the need to rub it in her face. Instead he explained the larger ramifications (as he sees it) which she might not be aware of.

As for Ardon, they've only known him for ten minutes and paladins don't have detect evil in 4e. Give it time.

Ok, that actually makes more sense too me. Particularly when combined with "Whoops, though you were running the show here.".

As an Aside, regarding today's' strip, Ardon Jumping into 45's arms was a VERY nice touch sir! XD!

Dragolord
2014-04-21, 06:35 AM
Wow, so these two have names, class levels, and a recurring villain?
They're definitely PCs.

Metahuman1
2014-04-21, 08:57 AM
They also have the little pictures of there faces that pop up when they have there word bubbles for talking.

Dragolord
2014-04-21, 01:11 PM
They also have the little pictures of there faces that pop up when they have there word bubbles for talking.

Oh, yeah! I missed that, thanks.

Metahuman1
2014-04-23, 03:31 PM
No problem. Also, i'm calling it now, Ardon is gonna do SOMETHING that is either gonna set the new party members on him and the rest of them, or he's gonna get them killed through his actions either directly or indirectly.

captpike
2014-04-23, 06:51 PM
No problem. Also, i'm calling it now, Ardon is gonna do SOMETHING that is either gonna set the new party members on him and the rest of them, or he's gonna get them killed through his actions either directly or indirectly.

I don't think he is that stupid, he will raise suspicions, but he wont go slaughter babies or something

Metahuman1
2014-04-23, 08:55 PM
Not if he knows there looking. He fails a perception check he thinks was good and then does something while there there on the other hand......

Alternatively, he does something jerkish/selfish/what-have-you that he doesn't think is gonna cause a serious problem, and then it unexpectedly comes back and bites him rather badly and things go form there.

thereaper
2014-04-26, 11:17 PM
Keep in mind that Ardon is a main character, and it is therefore unlikely that he will do something that will end up creating a permanent wall between himself and the rest of the party.

Metahuman1
2014-04-26, 11:42 PM
...

Um, am I the only one who remembers him straight up murdering a child to get clothing right that second to go shopping?


That did happen awhile back, right? I'm not loosing my mind?

Lord Raziere
2014-04-26, 11:51 PM
No, I remember as well. and technically, he already has done something like that with the competition against the elf ranger and her party which somehow didn't stick....if he was in my party, I'd be finding ways to kill him in his sleep by now.....

The Mormegil
2014-04-27, 01:08 PM
Truth is, the party likes Ardon. And I guess they like him for the same reason readers do: he's competent, humorous, gets the story moving and isn't afraid of doing immoral stuff to get his way (or a good joke). The comic is set up to reward black humor: unless there's a paradigm shift to a bit of a darker setting, I don't see arson murder and jaywalking creating true problems for Ardon.

Metahuman1
2014-04-28, 11:13 AM
I think Odi explained that he feels indebted to Ardon for bailing him out once or twice early on, and Elli sympathizes with Odi, Peanut's not bright enough to grasp it one way or the other (shame, I was so, so hoping to find out that he really was secretly a retired epic level badass and the most competent person in the party after all. THAT would have been hilarious and awesome!) and 45 is ALL about his own agenda's, one of which is knowing that Ardon will self destruct given enough time (and he's patient having no age limit.), and now contemplating a way to get the cash for handing him over to the Fey with out loosing the bet (I have to assume the only reason he's not worked out a party split and a cover up to make it look like Ardon's body got disintegrated while they were split by now is the bet, his pride won't let him break the term of bringing it down on Ardon with a straight up double cross.)



That said, 45 is already looking to get rid of him, and I don't think his usual is gonna be what get's him if anything. What I thought was gonna happen was that he was gonna do something arrogant/egotistical/nihilistic to the Cleric/Paladin and/or the rest of there party that intentionally or not get's them killed.

Dragolord
2014-05-09, 10:39 AM
Oh… this isn't good. Come on, nightmare spirit, admit that it was you! Or maybe everyone was so stupid that they miscounted Ell's HP?

Metahuman1
2014-05-09, 03:56 PM
4E says you have to be half your total HP into negatives, right? And Ell's a tank class that has the 2nd highest HP per level of any class and assumedly put at least some priority into Con, right? She's probably in negatives but alive.

I hope.

SlyGuyMcFly
2014-05-09, 04:05 PM
Good thing 4e doesn't have Chunky Salsa rules :smalleek:

Neoriceisgood
2014-05-10, 03:39 AM
...

Um, am I the only one who remembers him straight up murdering a child to get clothing right that second to go shopping?


That did happen awhile back, right? I'm not loosing my mind?

That totally happened, Ardon's pretty much a monster.

Nobody saw him do that though.

LoneStarNorth
2014-05-10, 06:08 AM
ACTUALLY that was an adult halfling Ardon killed (he had a mustache). That makes it okay!

...Right?

Draconi Redfir
2014-05-10, 10:58 AM
so long as he was a nameless NPC and wasn't actually annother person's character. Then all is good:smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2014-05-10, 11:37 AM
4E says you have to be half your total HP into negatives, right? And Ell's a tank class that has the 2nd highest HP per level of any class and assumedly put at least some priority into Con, right? She's probably in negatives but alive.

I hope.

Yeah, but aren't they like, 4th level? (not counting FortyFive) How much HP can even a Paladin have at that level?

Neoriceisgood
2014-05-10, 04:20 PM
ACTUALLY that was an adult halfling Ardon killed (he had a mustache). That makes it okay!

...Right?

A mustache ...


I never noticed that.

The Mormegil
2014-05-11, 06:22 AM
Yeah, but aren't they like, 4th level? (not counting FortyFive) How much HP can even a Paladin have at that level?

15 + Con score + 18. Roughly 45 on a standard build. With 64 damage you kill a 42 hp character. She's probably not dead, unless she had leftover damage or low Con.

Metahuman1
2014-05-12, 07:26 AM
So yeah, likely in the negatives and rolling against death, maybe taking bleed damage or some such. But not dead.

And I never noticed the mustache. That makes it, less stupidly evil, but still pretty evil. (He straight up murdered a sentient adult instead of a sentient child for a petty reason. Slightly less bad but it's still horrible.)

Dragolord
2014-05-13, 12:42 AM
Goodness. Is that a Holy Avenger? No wonder Ell wouldn't swap it.

Draconi Redfir
2014-05-13, 01:10 AM
if it is then i highly suggest that they stay away from loremasters. i happen to know from experiance that they are capable of turning holy avengers into baby bunnies.

Neoriceisgood
2014-05-13, 03:20 AM
Goodness. Is that a Holy Avenger? No wonder Ell wouldn't swap it.


if it is then i highly suggest that they stay away from loremasters. i happen to know from experiance that they are capable of turning holy avengers into baby bunnies.

I have very little experience with D&D aside from the basic stuff, anything I should know about what a Holy Avenger is and why it only activated for the dude?

The Mormegil
2014-05-13, 05:34 AM
I have very little experience with D&D aside from the basic stuff, anything I should know about what a Holy Avenger is and why it only activated for the dude?

Big badass sword, only works for paladins. Comes in various versions depending on fluff and stuff, but that's the jist of it.

tyckspoon
2014-05-13, 01:55 PM
I have very little experience with D&D aside from the basic stuff, anything I should know about what a Holy Avenger is and why it only activated for the dude?

They're basically *the* Paladin weapon - typically +5 enchantment, often Holy as well (whatever that means in a particular rules system - in 3E it would do extra damage against Evil things, in 4e.. I dunno, but I'm sure it exists somewhere), usually has a handful of other neat special abilities like dispelling magic or creating a protective aura. Only works for Paladins, and this particular weapon apparently only works for sufficiently strong Paladins.

Dragolord
2014-05-14, 02:04 PM
…and this particular weapon apparently only works for sufficiently strong Paladins.

Or, possibly, when they say something cool. :smallamused:

But where would a level one character get it? They cost 120 thousand gp. She could have bought the city for that!

Metahuman1
2014-05-14, 03:23 PM
Was random loot rolls a thing back in 4E? Maybe she just lucked out and didn't know it?

Or maybe it's cursed and that's why she couldn't use it to full power yet and that's why she could afford it?

Draconi Redfir
2014-05-14, 03:40 PM
She never paid for it. she found it. (http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=121)

Metahuman1
2014-05-14, 04:50 PM
In that case, I have three things to say.

1: Very Oda of you writer, very Oda.

2: The DM for this party is a tease.

3: Shori-yuken bitch!

Dragolord
2014-05-15, 12:18 AM
She never paid for it. she found it. (http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=121)

Oh, thanks. But imagine Ardon' s reaction!
"Wait, your sword is worth 120 times as much as everyone else's gear put together? YOINK."

Metahuman1
2014-05-15, 04:09 PM
I would pay real world money to watch Elly and Odi knock him senseless over that. XD!

The Glyphstone
2014-05-15, 05:49 PM
And she got it out of a body of water bucket, to boot. Definitely in the Paladin tradition, there.

stsasser
2014-05-15, 08:02 PM
And she got it out of a body of water bucket, to boot. Definitely in the Paladin tradition, there.

The body of water was the well. The bucket was of purest shimmering samite.

The Mormegil
2014-05-16, 04:54 AM
Sometimes items with a history get stronger alongside the character that uses them. This is a clear example of that: as she levels up the avenger will get more powers.
It's actually a standard practice in 4E, I think it's even suggested in a DMG.

Dragolord
2014-05-16, 10:42 AM
Sometimes items with a history get stronger alongside the character that uses them. This is a clear example of that: as she levels up the avenger will get more powers.
It's actually a standard practice in 4E, I think it's even suggested in a DMG.

Close, but backwards.
Oh, and forget my pricing estimates.
Artifacts are way more expensive.

Metahuman1
2014-05-16, 03:15 PM
Close, but backwards.
Oh, and forget my pricing estimates.
Artifacts are way more expensive.

? How could it be backwards of "The higher level she get's the more of the weapons powers she get's to use?"

Dragolord
2014-05-18, 09:36 AM
? How could it be backwards of "The higher level she get's the more of the weapons powers she get's to use?"

I meant that he said that the weapon gained more powers, not merely revealing them when Ell levels up enough, or the DM decides, or whatever. But yes, that is also right … from a certain point of view.

Metahuman1
2014-05-18, 09:43 AM
Ah, ok then. =)

Lizard Lord
2014-05-18, 06:07 PM
Poor Ell. Basically being told by the sword that inspired her to be a paladin that she isn't worthy. Granted I am hoping "worthy" will be clarified as just meaning high level, but Ell doesn't seem to be interpreting it that way.


Or perhaps she's just bummed because she believes that letting Erald keep the sword, thus losing her most prized sentimental object, is the right thing to do since Erald could do more good with it than her.

Neoriceisgood
2014-05-19, 03:00 AM
Poor Ell. Basically being told by the sword that inspired her to be a paladin that she isn't worthy. Granted I am hoping "worthy" will be clarified as just meaning high level, but Ell doesn't seem to be interpreting it that way.


Or perhaps she's just bummed because she believes that letting Erald keep the sword, thus losing her most prized sentimental object, is the right thing to do since Erald could do more good with it than her.

I think it's probably a bit of both, really.

Lord Raziere
2014-05-20, 09:22 AM
......on the latest comic, I'm with the personification of fear on this one......Ardon should've kept going....

but he unconditionally surrendered, yay. now its only a matter of time before they brought back to- oh wait, his father is in town and likes killing things in a cold manner. yeah. even if they make it back, his father will have screwed things up enough to render his punishment a moot point anyways.....sigh....

Seerow
2014-05-20, 10:02 AM
......on the latest comic, I'm with the personification of fear on this one......Ardon should've kept going....

Yeah, the problem with the Personification of fear was if he got knocked unconscious/died, it'd be strong enough to wipe out his whole party and everyone else. Well right now you've got two higher level adventurers who can take care of that problem for you, and demonstrated intent to use nonlethal force whenever possible.

Having something like a personification of fear posessing you even can be used to justify earlier bad acts and start you off with a clean slate.


...if only Ardon weren't an idiot right now.

Dragolord
2014-05-23, 12:21 AM
Ooooh. So the rest of the Sons of Solemnity have arrived! So, Bard and Fighter, do you think?

The Mormegil
2014-05-23, 04:49 AM
They already have a paladin, but then again they do have two leaders (unless the priest is an invoker?). The axe guy could be a barbarian with a leather mask.
Also, weren't they five?

Neoriceisgood
2014-05-23, 07:45 AM
I like how these guys have some strong thematic party colors.

... I wonder where this arc is gonna go though, these guys seem a lot tougher than our main team. :smallredface:

Lizard Lord
2014-05-23, 10:49 AM
The vote incentive indicates that the bard is the only non-divine class in the SoS. So I think it actually does have two paladins.

Dragolord
2014-05-23, 11:02 AM
The vote incentive indicates that the bard is the only non-divine class in the SoS. So I think it actually does have two paladins.

Ah-ha! The incentive says, "it was Oswalt who convinced the paladins that Glend yaddayaddayadda (sic)". Solved!

Metahuman1
2014-05-26, 09:09 AM
Huh, weird. I would figure if they wanted to be a predominantly Divine Party they'd have gone Paladin, Avenger, Invoker, Cleric, Something.

Anyway, yeah, um, they seem pretty screwed right now, or at least Ardon does. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Which is weird cause if this had happened before the nightmare monster storyline, I'd have been begging for this to be it for Ardon, and if it had happened between that and murdering the halfling for no good reason, I'd have been rooting desperatly for a daring escape in which they took back the Avenger Prime for Elli.

Though I hope that Elli doesn't totally give up on Paladin Hood/Adventuring over this.

The Mormegil
2014-05-26, 01:15 PM
This is setting up character growth for the party. We'll see what kind of growth they actually get.

stsasser
2014-05-26, 06:56 PM
Huh, weird. I would figure if they wanted to be a predominantly Divine Party they'd have gone Paladin, Avenger, Invoker, Cleric, Something.

Anyway, yeah, um, they seem pretty screwed right now, or at least Ardon does. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Which is weird cause if this had happened before the nightmare monster storyline, I'd have been begging for this to be it for Ardon, and if it had happened between that and murdering the halfling for no good reason, I'd have been rooting desperatly for a daring escape in which they took back the Avenger Prime for Elli.

Though I hope that Elli doesn't totally give up on Paladin Hood/Adventuring over this.

I hope she quits trying to fit into the paladin mold and becomes the murderous femme fatale in slinky black armor that she is at heart. A sword in bucket is a poor reason to adopt an path, especially as she can't hit anything with it and it wouldn't align with her as it did with the first real paladin it came into contact with. As for the SOS, they are just the next 4 or 5 goofs to be left as corpses by Team Ardon.

Dragolord
2014-05-27, 01:55 AM
I hope she quits trying to fit into the paladin mold and becomes the murderous femme fatale in slinky black armor that she is at heart. A sword in bucket is a poor reason to adopt an path, especially as she can't hit anything with it and it wouldn't align with her as it did with the first real paladin it came into contact with. As for the SOS, they are just the next 4 or 5 goofs to be left as corpses by Team Ardon.

Well, first of all, an awful backstory doesn't show a bad player, and Ell's isn't that bad, secondly, while for Erald it was a +4 Holy Avenger, it did give Ell a +1 bonus, so it knew that she was a paladin, just a low level one, and finally, how do you reckon? The SoS are a team of level 11 PCs. Ardon's Army are level 4 (and Ardon's pet fear spirit's powers).

Edit: Also, I doubt that Ell has the temperament or the Dexterity for leather armour.
Or the figure.

stsasser
2014-05-27, 05:29 AM
Well, first of all, an awful backstory doesn't show a bad player, and Ell's isn't that bad, secondly, while for Erald it was a +4 Holy Avenger, it did give Ell a +1 bonus, so it knew that she was a paladin, just a low level one, and finally, how do you reckon? The SoS are a team of level 11 PCs. Ardon's Army are level 4 (and Ardon's pet fear spirit's powers).

Edit: Also, I doubt that Ell has the temperament or the Dexterity for leather armour.
Or the figure.

First, it's slinky black plate armour; nobody said anything about leather. And don't go all Chandra on Ell's figure.

Even with the +1 bonus, Ell can't hit squat with that paladin sword. She is re-evaluating her role and *whiff* should be of the highest consideration. 'Nice girl paladin' is as failed for her as 'opera diva'. Embracing her dark side will make Ell the adventureress she always wanted to be.

Ardon's Army always leaves a trail of dead behind and SOS is on deck. Archwarlock Maloysious Dire may do most of the heavy lifting, but Ardon will take credit/XP/treasure, as usual.

ImperatorV
2014-05-27, 08:05 AM
Anyone else get the feeling that
This latest strip is a set-up for Peanut freeing Ardon?

Dragolord
2014-05-27, 10:19 AM
First, it's slinky black plate armour; nobody said anything about leather. And don't go all Chandra on Ell's figure.

Even with the +1 bonus, Ell can't hit squat with that paladin sword. She is re-evaluating her role and *whiff* should be of the highest consideration. 'Nice girl paladin' is as failed for her as 'opera diva'. Embracing her dark side will make Ell the adventureress she always wanted to be.

Ardon's Army always leaves a trail of dead behind and SOS is on deck. Archwarlock Maloysious Dire may do most of the heavy lifting, but Ardon will take credit/XP/treasure, as usual.

How can full plate be slinky? And Ell isn't that bad of a singer, she just wasn't as amazing as her ex-idol. Also, she's had a long series of bad attack rolls, she's not incapable of hitting stuff. Finally, how can a paladin embrace a "dark side"? Does 4e have Blackguards?
Oh, and if Archwarlock Maloysious Dire (KRAKAROOM!) kills the SoS, how long would our heroes last?

Metahuman1
2014-05-27, 03:13 PM
How can full plate be slinky? And Ell isn't that bad of a singer, she just wasn't as amazing as her ex-idol. Also, she's had a long series of bad attack rolls, she's not incapable of hitting stuff. Finally, how can a paladin embrace a "dark side"? Does 4e have Blackguards?
Oh, and if Archwarlock Maloysious Dire (KRAKAROOM!) kills the SoS, how long would our heroes last?

Five rounds, one for each of them to get wasted. And Ell is a none optimized Paladin in a world that runs on a game system were a certain amount of character op is needed, contrary to what 4E's designers swore with every breath they took 7 days a week for like 3 years when it was coming down the pipe/first came out. Ergo, it's all about weather your lucky on dice rolls or not. If she can retrain and if she can find a way to optimize properly, she'll be fine. Only problem is the system tries real hard not to let you do that.



Oh, and she's a Tank, hitting stuff is Odi and Peanut and 45's job. Her's is getting hit.

Draconi Redfir
2014-05-28, 11:48 PM
sooo... the sons are gunna like... return to sword to Ell, it's proper owner right? Like... just kinda taking it from a fellow adventurer and keeping it is kinda a **** move.

i mean if she willingly gave it to him then it'd be fine, but she never said anything along those lines.

Dragolord
2014-05-29, 04:41 AM
sooo... the sons are gunna like... return to sword to Ell, it's proper owner right? Like... just kinda taking it from a fellow adventurer and keeping it is kinda a **** move.

i mean if she willingly gave it to him then it'd be fine, but she never said anything along those lines.

I had assumed so, but from what interchangeable peasant number 56442019/F said… I'm not so sure. I mean, Erald's a paladin, so if he said that he'd return it he might, but hey, if he doesn't, that's a compelling reason for Ell to follow Ardon, right? Or maybe to prove herself worthy…

Neoriceisgood
2014-05-29, 04:58 AM
I had assumed so, but from what interchangeable peasant number 56442019/F said… I'm not so sure. I mean, Erald's a paladin, so if he said that he'd return it he might, but hey, if he doesn't, that's a compelling reason for Ell to follow Ardon, right? Or maybe to prove herself worthy…


I don't remember, did he say he'd return it? :smalleek:

Metahuman1
2014-05-29, 11:30 AM
Pretty sure he didn't. So, yeah, he chews her out, arrests her party member for treating a situation were your being attacked by something that would happily kill you if it DID have it's right frame of mind, and steals her sword when he realizes it's an artifact that makes him more powerful.

He's as bad as Miko was, and the only reason that swords working for him is his levels, it must require Paragon Tier or better to really kick in.

The Mormegil
2014-05-29, 05:09 PM
I don't really think you are right there. If the SoS were the main characters, that would be a random drop on their quest. The Avenger Prime might have actually been on their treasure tables for all we know. They are a powerful force of good that found a good-aligned artifact, if they were playing characters they wouldn't even THINK about giving the sword back to a random NPC whose incompetent party needed to be repeatedly saved.

Metahuman1
2014-05-29, 05:53 PM
If they were none holy themed, I'd buy that. But they ARE holy themed. If they don't fork that sword back over post haste, after beating the warlock dude at the very latest, then they've just lost any right to give holyer-then-thou speeches to anyone.

Draconi Redfir
2014-05-29, 07:26 PM
hell MY paladin found a holy avenger once that used to belong to a (now dead) paladin of a different god. while he did use it as he was attacking a place infested with demons anyways, he made it clear that he had every intention of returning it to the curch of the other god, had the paladin who origionally owned it still been alive he would have returned it immidiately, or at least asked if it was okay for him to use it temporairily. if the other paladin was going to leave.

Granted he never did return the sword, but that's only because it was turned into a rabbit.

Metahuman1
2014-05-29, 07:56 PM
Thank you, and yes, that is something of an understandable extenuatin cirstomance that the SoS or what ever there party is called can't hide behind.

Dragolord
2014-05-30, 01:39 AM
Thank you, and yes, that is something of an understandable extenuatin cirstomance that the SoS or what ever there party is called can't hide behind.

Assuming that Archwarlock Maloysius Dire (KRACKABOOM!) doesn't have the Stage Magician pact…

Metahuman1
2014-05-30, 11:12 AM
Can't hind behind at the moment at least cause we don't know what pact he has. Even so, they'd owe Elli a new Holy Avenger if they totaled her current one by my book unless she dies before they can cough it up.

Dragolord
2014-05-31, 12:26 AM
Unless they steal it. Ell seems ready to give up , Peanut doesn't really count as sentient, they're going to kill Ardon anyway, and Odivallus is a dumbie. I'm not so sure about Fortyfive though. Anyway, if Glend is Chaotic Good, then he might just enchant Ell to hand it over. Probably not, but hey, paranoia can always be justified.

Metahuman1
2014-05-31, 04:12 PM
That's not Chaotic Good. Chaotic or True Neutral I'd buy, but not Chaotic Good.

And here's hoping that they can snap Elli out of it. Also, someone refresh my memory, was the plan to kill the warlock dude and that will make all the dumbies stop being dumbies? Or did they just get hung up on stop the archwarlock dude and forgot the detail of actually curing victomes?

Dragolord
2014-06-01, 12:36 AM
That's not Chaotic Good. Chaotic or True Neutral I'd buy, but not Chaotic Good.

And here's hoping that they can snap Elli out of it. Also, someone refresh my memory, was the plan to kill the warlock dude and that will make all the dumbies stop being dumbies? Or did they just get hung up on stop the archwarlock dude and forgot the detail of actually curing victomes?

Um… probably the second one, from what we've heard. Remember, are PCs, and as such subject to every pun-making and story-ignoring weakness of the breed. Also the one about shiny valuable objects which they never have to return.

Metahuman1
2014-06-01, 01:59 AM
...

god almighty this is turning into the game of thrones of web comics and I can't believe I'm starting to want these guys to get schooled. Hard.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-01, 07:45 PM
For me the worse thing about Ell's new found self doubt(in a situation standpoint, I have no problem with it from a writing standpoint) is that the only person that I can see successfully talking her out of quitting is practically a zombie at the moment.

The Mormegil
2014-06-02, 02:23 AM
Ardon is going to snap her out in a moment of brilliant stupidity. I'm expecting a speech that is so dumb it works, à la 8-bit theater.

The Glyphstone
2014-06-02, 12:49 PM
His INT score is drained, but his WIS score is unchanged, and right now it might actually be higher than his INT. That's a perfect recipe for a dumb-but-insightful speech.

Dragolord
2014-06-02, 01:02 PM
His INT score is drained, but his WIS score is unchanged, and right now it might actually be higher than his INT. That's a perfect recipe for a dumb-but-insightful speech.

Hmm. Blonde, magic powers (without levels), idiocy, stupid yet meaningful speeches, and abilities based entirely around making loud noises? Prediction! Elan's happy ending will be dying to save his friends, then being Reincarnated. Guess which race…

The Glyphstone
2014-06-02, 08:22 PM
Hmm. Blonde, magic powers (without levels), idiocy, stupid yet meaningful speeches, and abilities based entirely around making loud noises? Prediction! Elan's happy ending will be dying to save his friends, then being Reincarnated. Guess which race…

With those qualifiers? Maenad. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#maenads)

LoneStarNorth
2014-06-02, 08:44 PM
Hmm. Blonde, magic powers (without levels), idiocy, stupid yet meaningful speeches, and abilities based entirely around making loud noises? Prediction! Elan's happy ending will be dying to save his friends, then being Reincarnated. Guess which race…

Dang, somebody called it. Guess I have to contact Rich and let him know the crossover is off. Too bad, Peanut vs Belkar was going to be awesome.

Metahuman1
2014-06-03, 12:52 PM
Really? Cause Blond Hair, Blue eyes and special ability's that operate off yelling and screaming sounded like a super saiyan to me.

That said, is Avenger Prime a published Artifact somewhere? I have to know if the only problem was that you have to be Paragon Tier or serve a different deity to the one Elli serves to trigger it. In which case I can just slap the orders paladin for being far to quick to give lower level characters a dressing down with out having the sense to properly explain what he's doing so they might actually learn.

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-04, 12:47 AM
super sayian eyes are green actually... yeah.

The Glyphstone
2014-06-04, 12:51 AM
At least he's trying to help, in his own warped way.

Neoriceisgood
2014-06-04, 01:33 AM
Hahahahahahahahahahah. That's my new favorite page.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-04, 01:34 AM
And something I just realized with people with the whole dumb-but-insightful speech thing is that the people who give them are inherently good and you can tell that even if they are explaining badly.

Ardon is not good in the slightest and the only speech he could give to actually convince Ell would be one filled with what he would consider to be lies and he is not smart enough to come up with convincing lies right now.

stsasser
2014-06-04, 12:20 PM
Ardon's altruism being based on his temporary idiocy is wonderful. I just wish that he had used Odie to sit on while making his case to Ell.

Metahuman1
2014-06-04, 03:54 PM
Well ****. Just, well, ****.

ImperatorV
2014-06-04, 04:46 PM
Another crowning moment of Ardon.


Prediction: Ardon goes off on his own. SoS end up talking Ell out of her funk, and they go off together to save Ardon from Archwarlock Maloysius Dire (Krackaboom). They somehow meet the Archwarlock first, and Ardon has to save them.


Or Ardon fails hilariously and they are all saved by Peanut and the squirrels.

Metahuman1
2014-06-04, 04:49 PM
I sincerely doubt the Paladin jerk in the SoS would LET the others talk her out of her funk even if they could and wanted too. (I might by the cleric, bard or the other paladin/avenger/whateverheis doing it, but that Paladin? Nope. Hell, he'll probably try to convince her to stay in her funk to make it easier to keep her sword.)

Anteros
2014-06-04, 07:21 PM
hell MY paladin found a holy avenger once that used to belong to a (now dead) paladin of a different god. while he did use it as he was attacking a place infested with demons anyways, he made it clear that he had every intention of returning it to the curch of the other god, had the paladin who origionally owned it still been alive he would have returned it immidiately, or at least asked if it was okay for him to use it temporairily. if the other paladin was going to leave.

Granted he never did return the sword, but that's only because it was turned into a rabbit.

Did you at least return the rabbit?

I also vote that I wouldn't try to keep the sword. Maybe if I was playing a chaotic or evil character, but as a freaking paladin? Nope.


I don't see the paladin as bad person. He's just very self-centered and self righteous. It wouldn't surprise me if trying to steal the sword from El makes him fall though.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-05, 12:46 AM
The thing is, the I would think the cleric would bring up to the paladin that the sword belongs to Ell. The only reason I can think of that he wouldn't is that they really are only borrowing the sword and in all the action and surprises genuinely forgot that they didn't ask for permission.

After they kill the archwarlock, "Here you go Ell. Why are you so surprised? I am returning your sword just like we agre...oh. Oops."

:smallbiggrin:

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-05, 04:47 AM
Did you at least return the rabbit?

i might have, but my DM was very rude to me when i proposed the idea of the rabbit (having been giving both celestial and dire templates by the DM himself, thus having an Int of at least 3) taking paladin levels as the game went on, and instead made the rabbit "run away" for no real reason despite never attempting to stop me when i told him outright that i was going to look for things i could do with the rabbit after statting it out :/ a simple "no" would have sufficed.

Metahuman1
2014-06-05, 10:08 AM
I could see the Cleric if not the other party members mentioning provided they don't in all the excitement forget about that one detail like they did after the Oger was knocked out. I can also see the Paladin managing to argue his way around to "It's for the best of I keep it.". By some kind of logic similar to "You fail cause you can't make people not potentially call the absoluteness of the good gods into question."

And does 4E have fallen Paladin Rules? I was under the impression they did away with that.

Dragolord
2014-06-05, 01:31 PM
Dang, somebody called it. Guess I have to contact Rich and let him know the crossover is off. Too bad, Peanut vs Belkar was going to be awesome.

Nooooooo! What- what have I done? Although actually, that would be epic. Anyway, New prediction! Archwarlock Maloysius Dire (KRACKABOOM) will be easily defeating the SoS, even with the definitely borrowed, oh, yes, Avenger Prime, with his dark and fiendish Squirrel Pact… and then Ardon will chuck Peanut at him. Carnivorous-squirrel-related humour ensues.

Metahuman1
2014-06-05, 04:03 PM
Nooooooo! What- what have I done? Although actually, that would be epic. Anyway, New prediction! Archwarlock Maloysius Dire (KRACKABOOM) will be easily defeating the SoS, even with the definitely borrowed, oh, yes, Avenger Prime, with his dark and fiendish Squirrel Pact… and then Ardon will chuck Peanut at him. Carnivorous-squirrel-related humour ensues.

See, now this, this I'd buy.

The Glyphstone
2014-06-06, 09:51 AM
The skull's expression of confusion makes this comic.

"Wait, how many dimensions?"

Dragolord
2014-06-10, 12:37 AM
The skull's expression of confusion makes this comic.

"Wait, how many dimensions?"

And in the latest one. "Hold on, Archwarlock who?"

Metahuman1
2014-06-10, 11:51 AM
Oh, so, the group of low paragon tier adventurers are going after what is likely form the back story we just got an epic level adventurer. And there convinced that because there blinded by desire for revenge, that the sword is in fact rightfully there's cause someone's mother owned it once.

Yeah, there totally gonna steal it form Ellie if they live to see the end of this adventure.

Dragolord
2014-06-10, 02:14 PM
Oh, so, the group of low paragon tier adventurers are going after what is likely form the back story we just got an epic level adventurer. And there convinced that because there blinded by desire for revenge, that the sword is in fact rightfully there's cause someone's mother owned it once.

Yeah, there totally gonna steal it form Ellie if they live to see the end of this adventure.

That's actually plausible, if the Archwarlock wasn't meant to fight them directly until Epic levels. Maybe the DM messed up with the scripted treasure?

Metahuman1
2014-06-10, 03:44 PM
Or maybe there just not nearly as good at there deal as they fancy themselves.

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-10, 05:21 PM
lonestar said it once before, there is no DM or people around a table, so it's not a case of mixing up the treasure lists as such things dont exist.

Metahuman1
2014-06-10, 05:48 PM
I thought it was a case of the rules, including the treasure tables and rolled treasure, existed, there was just no DM to do it manually and it was a rule of the universe that it happened automatically.

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-10, 06:14 PM
ohhh, that could be the case yeah. dunno how invisible loot tables could get mixed up though, as as far as i picture them at least, they would be sort of like our perception of time or luck, in that it is reffered to as a tangible thing, when really it's nothing more then an idea we used to explain stuff.

LoneStarNorth
2014-06-10, 08:37 PM
Officially there is no DM and no players existing as individual characters separate from the rest of the narrative. However, the world of WSWFG is based on the idioms of D&D, not just the rules. So if I were to put a DM error into the plot it would be "the universe" making the error instead, but the result in the world would be about the same.

Incidentally this is why the characters have a limited ability to care when friendly NPCs get killed. Because in a real game, you might roleplay a reaction, but ultimately it's just a fictional character and most people don't get worked up about it the same way as they would about a real world death (unless it's THEIR fictional character, of course).

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-10, 10:58 PM
in world terms then, people just have a very low value of life over there:smalltongue:

Metahuman1
2014-06-11, 02:54 PM
To there defense, this varies (Odi and Elly being one extreme while 45 and Ardon are more the other.), and hey, it's a world were the afterlife is a tangible place and if your high enough level you can even go check it out before hand and if the right person asks the gods they'll bring you back form the afterlife at times.

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-12, 02:45 AM
theory thus far: Bard dude is Ell's long lost father/uncle/somethingorother

edit: And helmet paladin's helmet is almost the exact same colour as the basement wall.

stsasser
2014-06-12, 06:21 AM
Alternative theory: Bard dude recognizes her as Krackaboom's long-lost daughter.

Metahuman1
2014-06-12, 10:58 AM
Hoping for the former. Five bucks says if it's the latter that SoS paladin dude opts to try justifying killing her on the spot and spends the rest of the adventure looking for a chance to gank her with her own sword.

Barring that, Another five bucks says That's the sole reason the Avenger Prime wouldn't attune to her and that as soon as she attacks Archwarlock dude she's gonna have it attune to her cause it decides she's not gonna follow her father and it shouldn't keep punishing her for his sins.

The Mormegil
2014-06-12, 05:34 PM
Calling the father theory, it seems the most obvious. So either I'm right or I'm pleasantly surprised.

Metahuman1
2014-06-12, 11:32 PM
Well ****, we were close but I guess I'm still out the money.

Dragolord
2014-06-13, 12:14 AM
Oh. I wasn't expecting that. So Erald is her… brain overload. The other day, I wad going to make a joke about Sarris's armour blends into the wall and so (at the time) he must be its father, so I suppose sort of half-called it?

Lizard Lord
2014-06-13, 01:50 AM
To be fair Glend could still be Ell's father. :smallwink:

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-13, 02:09 AM
Woah... didn't see that coming:smalleek:

also from the look of the gray-haired paladin, i'm assuming he's the father.

but still. Sarris being A. A girl and B. Ell's mother. Did not see that coming!

Marnath
2014-06-13, 02:38 AM
I think you guys mean that Sarris is Ell's grandmother. Ell isn't old enough to be the daughter of someone who apparently has pure gray hair.

*edit: Also note the removal of the hat, which is something you do when a person close to you died. Like Sarris' kid/kid in-law?

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-13, 02:56 AM
...sarris' hair is mostly brown, it only has a small streak of gray.

how did you get entirely gray from that?

Marnath
2014-06-13, 03:02 AM
...sarris' hair is mostly brown, it only has a small streak of gray.

how did you get entirely gray from that?

I thought it was one of those head coverings you wear under mail or helmets. It still kinda looks like that.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-13, 03:02 AM
wonder if they had all thought Ell was dead for some reason and that Sarris is the mother mentioned in here (http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=1212). That might also explain why Erald is tearing up and why Glend took his hat off.

stsasser
2014-06-13, 07:13 AM
wonder if they had all thought Ell was dead for some reason and that Sarris is the mother mentioned in here (http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=1212). That might also explain why Erald is tearing up and why Glend took his hat off.

Called this so wrong, might as well keep it up:

Is Erald tearing up because he's Ell's daddy?

Edit: Just realized that even if Sarris is Ell's mother and Erald thinks that he is her father, Krackaboom could still be the baby-daddy.:smalltongue:

Lizard Lord
2014-06-13, 09:14 AM
Called this so wrong, might as well keep it up:

Is Erald tearing up because he's Ell's daddy?

Yea that was also my other theory. Though think about it? Good is not nice Erald is the only one there besides Ell's mother that has tears in his eyes. There simply has to be a reason for that right? Either he has also just met his long lost daughter or has just realized that the infant child he failed to save and was haunted by that (especially if he travels with a constant reminder of that failure) got saved anyways.

Though I suppose he could just be a big softy at heart, that would be nice.

Metahuman1
2014-06-13, 10:42 AM
Yeah, 50/50 on weather or not one of the others is her dad if the paladin/avenger that just removed there helmet is in fact her mom.

That said, even if good is not nice paladin dude is her dad, there's still the aspect of "Holy crap I've been doing it all this way cause that one baby died, and now here she is a paladin in her own right!" that would likely be worth some water works.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-13, 11:45 AM
Good news (well that was already good news I suppose) is that realizing that she came from a long line of paladins may be what gets Ell out of her funk.

stsasser
2014-06-13, 12:26 PM
Good news (well that was already good news I suppose) is that realizing that she came from a long line of paladins may be what gets Ell out of her funk.

But Ell is terrible at palidinating! Why would that be??:smallwink:

Metahuman1
2014-06-13, 01:16 PM
It might also help if good but not nice guy finds out that infant survived and has to totally eat his words right in front of her, and the group as a whole have to point blank tell her "Look, this sword was my mothers. YOUR grandmothers. The only reason your not getting more out of it is that it unlocks in 4 stages. Heroic Tier, were your at, it's just a +1 Longsword. Paragon Tier it works like it did on the oger for good but not nice dude. Epic Tier it works better, and if you make it to 30th level it really starts unlocking artifact worthy powers. It has nothing to do with good paladin/bad paladin and is not an indicator of such. Just of "how many levels do you have in the class.". That's all."

THAT could easily get her out of her funk.

Dragolord
2014-06-14, 01:21 AM
Archive-diving has brought results: the SoS have been fighting the Archwarlock for twenty years. Ell is about twenty. When the party was formed, Erald and Sarris were already good friends. Yah, basically, the paladins "smited evil" together. And, of course, how could they keep her, what with adventuring and, well, adventuring. I'm assuming that they planned to come back after they defeated Dire. Then didn't.

Metahuman1
2014-06-14, 12:42 PM
If nothing else, stealing her sword and giving her a dressing down as his first interactions with her after all these years should prove to leave quite a bit of Egg on Good But Not Nice guys Face.


Also, no wonder they haven't beat him, there a 4E party with no strikers! You seriously couldn't find an Invoker or an Avenger to join you?

Lizard Lord
2014-06-15, 08:08 PM
To be fair Ell somewhat deserved the dressing down. If you can identify something with a knowledge check you should do it and Ell should know she can identify undead with a knowledge religion check. What if they were some kind of exploding undead? Lack of foresight can get a party killed and Ell needs to learn that she can't let Ardon do all the foresight for her (which seems to be a problem both her and Odi share).

Heck as far as I know D&D zombies don't spread their disease with a bite (since they aren't even disease based zombies) Ell could have at least done a knowledge religion check on them to see if the theory was accurate. Sure she couldn't predict that lack of knowledge would cause them to accidentally kill countless innocent people, but she could have predicted it killing her party which is bad enough.

Dragolord
2014-06-16, 12:28 AM
Hah! We were mostly party-right! And again, I thought that perhaps they thought that the Archwarlock had killed her… just before I looked. Bummer.Anyway, Nadine?

Seerow
2014-06-16, 07:09 AM
Hah! We were mostly party-right! And again, I thought that perhaps they thought that the Archwarlock had killed her… just before I looked. Bummer.Anyway, Nadine?

Im guessing Nadine is the name of the Aunt El was left with?

Marnath
2014-06-16, 07:33 AM
Im guessing Nadine is the name of the Aunt El was left with?

It would be way more likely that she is addressing El by her birth name. Why would it be the aunt's name?

Metahuman1
2014-06-16, 08:16 AM
To be fair Ell somewhat deserved the dressing down. If you can identify something with a knowledge check you should do it and Ell should know she can identify undead with a knowledge religion check. What if they were some kind of exploding undead? Lack of foresight can get a party killed and Ell needs to learn that she can't let Ardon do all the foresight for her (which seems to be a problem both her and Odi share).

Heck as far as I know D&D zombies don't spread their disease with a bite (since they aren't even disease based zombies) Ell could have at least done a knowledge religion check on them to see if the theory was accurate. Sure she couldn't predict that lack of knowledge would cause them to accidentally kill countless innocent people, but she could have predicted it killing her party which is bad enough.

You mean like it should have dawned on him at the time he got it in his head that he was just oh so very much better at this that then her that he was the one worthy of giving the dressing down out too her that "hey, ya know, she looks like a younger version of that other paladin who's been in my party for like 30 years. The one that lost a daughter. Who if she'd lived would be an adult now. Um, yeah, maybe I should get some answers first and THEN see about chewing her out for sucking at life."

Incidentally, he might have been able to maintain that kind of high ground if he hadn't also, the instant he realized her sword was nicer then his, decided "up, finders keepers, mine now, been looking everywhere for this damn thing, oh well, sucks to be her but it sucked to be her before anyway so this shouldn't be that much worse, and besides, I've got a personal long standing grudge to satisfy and that trumps property rights!"

Yeah, I gotta say, I don't think that it's the whole SoS party that bugs me, I think it's just that one guy who rubs me the wrong way.

Seerow
2014-06-16, 11:13 AM
It would be way more likely that she is addressing El by her birth name. Why would it be the aunt's name?

I figured it would be more likely that El knew her aunt (possibly through the orphanage) than the name she was given at birth. Though this all happened when she was young enough that it's a stretch for her to know either. Unless she has some locket or other momento that I've forgotten with her birth name, but if that's the case why would she have picked up the name Ell?

Marnath
2014-06-16, 11:20 AM
I figured it would be more likely that El knew her aunt (possibly through the orphanage) than the name she was given at birth. Though this all happened when she was young enough that it's a stretch for her to know either. Unless she has some locket or other momento that I've forgotten with her birth name, but if that's the case why would she have picked up the name Ell?

:smallannoyed: Because she doesn't know her birth name. Sarris is the one who knows that, and she's telling her right now. That's why she said it like that.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-16, 03:00 PM
I figured it would be more likely that El knew her aunt (possibly through the orphanage) than the name she was given at birth. Though this all happened when she was young enough that it's a stretch for her to know either. Unless she has some locket or other momento that I've forgotten with her birth name, but if that's the case why would she have picked up the name Ell?

The Orphanage named her Ell. They were not a very creative orphanage.

stsasser
2014-06-16, 05:44 PM
The Orphanage named her Ell. They were not a very creative orphanage.

'Ell' was the name that Nadine was hidden under to keep her real father, Darth Dire, from finding her.

The Glyphstone
2014-06-16, 06:25 PM
The orphan before her was named Kay, and the one after her was named Emm, right?

Dragolord
2014-06-17, 12:16 AM
The orphan before her was named Kay, and the one after her was named Emm, right?

Very possibly. I'd have called her Hepzibah.Of course! The SoS is a family-run business! It is the Sons of Solemnity, after all. And no wonder Glend joined! Although I'd have expected a Divine class, what with his father the cleric…

Metahuman1
2014-06-17, 10:52 PM
It is possible that when he said father it was meant as a term sometimes used to refer to a priest.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-18, 12:02 AM
It is possible that when he said father it was meant as a term sometimes used to refer to a priest.

Glend's backstory supports this, though Oswalt also appears to serve as a father figure to Glend.

Dragolord
2014-06-18, 12:11 AM
Glend's backstory supports this, though Oswalt also appears to serve as a father figure to Glend.

Which he would also do, if he was his father.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-18, 12:20 AM
Which he would also do, if he was his father.


But he's not. Glend's father was either a thief or prostitute.

Draconi Redfir
2014-06-18, 03:57 AM
But he's not. Glend's father was either a thief or prostitute.

i know a few girls vwho have a thing for bald guys :smalltongue:

Metahuman1
2014-06-18, 09:54 AM
So yeah, today's page felt like a filler page to me.

Marnath
2014-06-18, 09:57 AM
So yeah, today's page felt like a filler page to me.

It looked to me like Ardon's passenger is making plans to do something.

Dragolord
2014-06-18, 11:29 AM
But he's not. Glend's father was either a thief or prostitute.

Ah. Never mind, then.

Dragolord
2014-06-19, 01:13 AM
Ah, I do descry a setup for the Archwarlock being a kobold, methinks. Tee hee. *titters*.

Metahuman1
2014-06-19, 09:54 AM
As of today's page, I'm inclined to agree with the passenger planning homicide idea.

Dragolord
2014-06-25, 03:50 AM
Ever since the Guardian turned up, the skull' s been like :smalleek:. Hehehe.

Neoriceisgood
2014-06-25, 07:23 AM
I hope the skull stays on the party for a long time, hahahah.

Metahuman1
2014-06-25, 10:37 AM
I have to wonder if Ardon will repeat Belkars mistake with the skull?

Gez
2014-06-25, 11:01 AM
How kind of the guardian to explain how he can be defeated.

Dragolord
2014-06-26, 12:25 AM
"As long as I draw breath," he/she/it claims... Surely, though, extraplanar creatures don't?

DeltaEmil
2014-06-26, 02:30 AM
"As long as I draw breath," he/she/it claims... Surely, though, extraplanar creatures don't?In 3rd edition, outsiders (one of the most common types of extraplanar creatures) did have to breath.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-26, 02:46 AM
I find myself liking Ardon the same way I like Belkar and others seem to be at least conflicted by him. Fortyfive, however, I do not like.

For all his concerns Ardon has shown to be invested in the party. He genuinely cares about their prolonged existence. In fact Ardon is arguably the most reliable party member. I would say he is at least as reliable as Ell and Odi.


Fortyfive is the least reliable. Even less so than Peanut who will only act if an enemy or object is right next to him of if Ardon tells him to with his Warlord abilities.

Because Fortyfive does not care for the party. He is in fact invested in seeing on of the members fail. While Ardon may deserve it if he died at most of his near death experiences the rest of the party (with the probable exception of Fortyfive) would die shortly after. Fortyfive is unreliable because he will quit the moment you need him the most. That is the worse sort of member to be on a team.


With this very page while I can argue reason with leaving Ardon to die, but Fortyfive dropped Peanut before running away. I can understand Fortyfive not caring if Ardon lives or dies, but he clearly shows he does not care if the others live or die either.

Neoriceisgood
2014-06-26, 03:51 AM
snip.

There's also that odd subplot with the other robot guys seemingly being like an evil group?

Metahuman1
2014-06-26, 09:32 AM
And fortyfive apparently knowing how much money the fey are willing to give out for Ardon.

Dragolord
2014-06-26, 10:48 AM
There's also that odd subplot with the other robot guys seemingly being like an evil group?

I thought that that was some kind of Discworldesque sentient-machines-buying-their-own-freedom thing. Also, this is a 4th ed comic.

stsasser
2014-06-26, 12:25 PM
With this very page while I can argue reason with leaving Ardon to die, but Fortyfive dropped Peanut before running away. I can understand Fortyfive not caring if Ardon lives or dies, but he clearly shows he does not care if the others live or die either.

The fact that Fortyfive left Peanut there indicates to me that he has not run away, but is exploiting that so-called '3rd Dimension' to circle behind the tower to come up behind The Guardian.

Besides, Barry is now my favourite character. If he was eliminated, I might not even be commenting.

Lizard Lord
2014-06-26, 02:30 PM
Besides, Barry is now my favourite character. If he was eliminated, I might not even be commenting.

Who said anything about anyone being eliminated? I highly doubt Peanut, Ardon, and Barry are going to die/be destroyed here, but Fortyfive has no reason to think that they will live.


Also, I would find it out of character if Fortyfive actually helps Ardon fight this thing that is obviously well above their ECL. He was going to let the goblins kill the party. He was going to let the Kracken kill the party. I see no reason for why he wouldn't let the Guardian kill Ardon.

Neoriceisgood
2014-06-26, 05:00 PM
I thought that that was some kind of Discworldesque sentient-machines-buying-their-own-freedom thing. Also, this is a 4th ed comic.

Oh wow, I totally read that wrong then.

stsasser
2014-06-26, 08:06 PM
Who said anything about anyone being eliminated? I highly doubt Peanut, Ardon, and Barry are going to die/be destroyed here, but Fortyfive has no reason to think that they will live.


Also, I would find it out of character if Fortyfive actually helps Ardon fight this thing that is obviously well above their ECL. He was going to let the goblins kill the party. He was going to let the Kracken kill the party. I see no reason for why he wouldn't let the Guardian kill Ardon.

I'm not saying that he didn't leave Ardon there to be killed...although that would cut the bounty in half.

Dragolord
2014-06-27, 12:14 AM
Noooooooo! Ardon dropped Sir Chopington!

Metahuman1
2014-06-27, 10:49 AM
Yeah, that no plan thing isn't working out as well as he'd hoped.

Neoriceisgood
2014-06-27, 04:48 PM
Ardon is an idiot.

Metahuman1
2014-06-27, 04:51 PM
For the moment, given his int score took a beating and I doubt it's properly recovered yet.

stsasser
2014-06-27, 08:20 PM
For the moment, given his int score took a beating and I doubt it's properly recovered yet.

I think it's 'S-stupid fish...beached himself'...again...that is having second thoughts. Nightmare really is king of the dumbies.

Metahuman1
2014-06-27, 10:57 PM
I think it's 'S-stupid fish...beached himself'...again...that is having second thoughts. Nightmare really is king of the dumbies.

Maybe. Actually, I wonder if he's got some way to negate the damage he's taking while he's in there, and has 45 circling around to flank and his plan is to just keep up that defense and use his warlord powers from inside the guardian?

Dragolord
2014-06-30, 12:17 AM
Hmm. Construction team. Throne of skulls, anyone?

stsasser
2014-07-01, 10:18 PM
I think it's 'S-stupid fish...beached himself'...again...that is having second thoughts. Nightmare really is king of the dumbies.


Maybe. Actually, I wonder if he's got some way to negate the damage he's taking while he's in there, and has 45 circling around to flank and his plan is to just keep up that defense and use his warlord powers from inside the guardian?

Nightmare planned on seizing control of Krackaboom, but he couldn't even get past The Guardian...who is immune to Dominate.

Nightmare is truly King of the Dumbies!!

Dragolord
2014-07-02, 01:23 AM
Nightmare planned on seizing control of Krackaboom, but he couldn't even get past The Guardian...who is immune to Dominate.

Nightmare is truly King of the Dumbies!!

Is he? He (or it) might well be, but the nightmare spirit goes for the soul, not the mind. I suppose that he assumed that he/she/it didn't have one.

stsasser
2014-07-02, 12:31 PM
Is he? He (or it) might well be, but the nightmare spirit goes for the soul, not the mind. I suppose that he assumed that he/she/it didn't have one.

Nightmare uses the term 'dominate' in his attack on Ardon.
The Guardian's stat card states: "Immune daze, domination, stun".
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it would be wholly in keeping with Nightmare's style to end up where his ultimate weapon was useless.:smallwink:

Dragolord
2014-07-03, 12:43 PM
Nightmare uses the term 'dominate' in his attack on Ardon.
The Guardian's stat card states: "Immune daze, domination, stun".
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it would be wholly in keeping with Nightmare's style to end up where his ultimate weapon was useless.:smallwink:

Ooh, so it does. Never mind. Although, one could say that the N-S's power is unique and not covered.

Dragolord
2014-07-04, 12:24 AM
This latest one sounds like it should be on the Evil Overlord list: No.507:If I must guard the secret entrance to my villainous lair with only a hologram or illusion, I will place speakers programmed to play dramatic music when the heroes arrive, and an extremely steep flight of stairs immediately on the other side.

Metahuman1
2014-07-04, 02:34 PM
That should be. Though that line of Ardon's about how dangerous it was was funny.

Dragolord
2014-07-14, 01:52 PM
This foreman is very uninterested in workplace safety. Although he is very pragmatic. Also, is the incentive hinting at Ardon killing the Guardian?

ImperatorV
2014-07-14, 02:54 PM
This foreman is very uninterested in workplace safety. Although he is very pragmatic. Also, is the incentive hinting at Ardon killing the Guardian?

Seems rather obvious as far as foreshadowing goes. Could be a red herring. Or maybe LSN knows we will think it's a red herring, and it is actually foreshadowing.

Short answer: maybe.

stsasser
2014-07-14, 06:32 PM
*clink...?* :smalleek:

Metahuman1
2014-07-14, 07:29 PM
Ardon, I introduce you to your long lost Kobolt cousin.

Dragolord
2014-07-15, 12:41 AM
*clink...?* :smalleek:

What about it? It's just the kobolds mining.


Seems rather obvious as far as foreshadowing goes. Could be a red herring. Or maybe LSN knows we will think it's a red herring, and it is actually foreshadowing.
Short answer: maybe.

Or perhaps it's a way of making us vote more! If we all think that important foreshadowing is in the incentives, then who won't vote?

stsasser
2014-07-15, 11:55 AM
What about it? It's just the kobolds mining.

I just thought it was one of the most concise, expressive and funny things ever written in WSWFG, worth quoting.

Dragolord
2014-07-15, 02:45 PM
I just thought it was one of the most concise, expressive and funny things ever written in WSWFG, worth quoting.

Oh! Sorry, I thought that you meant the sounds in general, not just that one. Yes, it is certainly expressive, even if I'm not quite sure how.

EDIT: Hee. I just saw Ardon on the Topwebcomics prove-you-aren't-a-bot thing.

stsasser
2014-07-18, 12:17 PM
Did Ardon drop trou?

Marnath
2014-07-18, 01:36 PM
Did Ardon drop trou?

Leaning over with his hands on his knees, I think.

Lizard Lord
2014-07-21, 10:21 AM
So let's review. Fortyfive drops Peanut at the first sign of real danger and hides. Ardon on the other hand leaves Peanut somewhere where he will be out of harm's way.

I'm with Ardon, I don't care if Fortyfive dies either.

Anteros
2014-07-21, 10:42 AM
On the other hand, he's attempting to leave him with a guy who will murder him just to make a point. Even nice Ardon isn't actually that nice.

Draconi Redfir
2014-07-21, 11:29 AM
kinda stinks that penut isn't unique, buuuuttt.... pbt.

stsasser
2014-07-21, 12:25 PM
On the other hand, he's attempting to leave him with a guy who will murder him just to make a point. Even nice Ardon isn't actually that nice.

Good intentions and the road to Hell and all that. For all we know, 'Adventures With Ardon' has been the best time of Peanut's life. Ardon, misguidedly, may actually be condemning him back to a life of slavish drudgery that he once strove desperately to escape.

Barry is going to have to contribute more to pick up the slack, though.

Metahuman1
2014-07-21, 04:01 PM
I wouldn't count on Peanut being there too long. After all, Elli and her new (possibly temporary) party will be coming through in the near future. That or the Kobolt running the show will say something that will force Ardon to reconsider this particular method of what he's attempting.

Anteros
2014-07-21, 08:36 PM
Or....maybe Peanut will show some form of self will and rejoin the party on his own!

Dragolord
2014-07-22, 01:34 AM
kinda stinks that penut isn't unique, buuuuttt.... pbt.
Unless he wipes out all of his inbred brethren in the dead of night, of course.


I wouldn't count on Peanut being there too long. After all, Elli and her new (possibly temporary) party will be coming through in the near future. That or the Kobolt running the show will say something that will force Ardon to reconsider this particular method of what he's attempting.
If Ell does turn up with Evergard Senior and senior in tow, which kobold will she pick? Also, Ell is now alliterative.

EDIT: Gah, so many typos.

random11
2014-07-22, 02:57 AM
Ell! Don't you know that traveling with the family you just found to fight their enemy who is stronger then you, is the quickest way to lose the newly found family and vowing to fight the enemy out of vengeance?!

Then again, NOT going with them will lead to the same result plus guilt for not going, so I guess you should start packing...

Dragolord
2014-07-28, 05:04 AM
I sincerely, sincerely hope that Elldine never finds out about this. Ever.

Ibrinar
2014-07-28, 07:17 AM
Hmm, she met Ardon as baby and he was an important influence on her life. Their new meeting must be fate, obviously I shall ship them now! (Reading urban fantasy has taught me that supernatural love interests don't have to be moral or particularly likeable. Granted it would work better if he were the brooding ******* type but oh well.)

Anyway more serious: about the only way she might find that out is if somehow an eyewitness turns up or Ardon for some reason remembers running someone over, speaks about it for some reason and gives enough info to identify his victim. Rather unlikely but I suppose it could happen.

The Mormegil
2014-07-28, 01:12 PM
Story structure: the author would never have shown this right now if there was any chance this was going to come up in the future.

Anteros
2014-07-29, 09:13 PM
I really hope we get either some sort of redemption arc for Ardon at some point, or he actually gets his comeuppance.

Dragolord
2014-07-30, 12:27 AM
I really hope we get either some sort of redemption arc for Ardon at some point, or he actually gets his comeuppance.

If he's serious about picking a fight with Dire, he might in the next few days.

Anteros
2014-07-30, 01:41 AM
I don't see the plot headed that way...and it wouldn't be satisfying if it came at the hands of some random villain anyway. If he's going to get a comeuppance, it needs to be a result of his evil actions.

Lizard Lord
2014-07-30, 02:49 AM
With Ardon leaving Peanut with the kobold dugeonscapping company, Ell and Odivallus joining the SoS, and Ardon and Fortyfive heading towards it seems like we are nearing a chapter change or time skip or something (not the end of the story, of course, it is too early and too many lose plot threads for that). Either that or the SoS lose against Dire.

Can't really see Ell staying with Ardon as long as joining the SoS is an option for her.

Macros
2014-07-30, 02:09 PM
Can't really see Ell staying with Ardon as long as joining the SoS is an option for her.

That's why I believe this option will be taken away at some point. I somehow doubt the rest of the comic will be about the wondrous adventures of the Sons of Solemnity, their new-found relative and her prospective boyfriend. :smallamused:

Metahuman1
2014-07-30, 05:43 PM
Knowing this comic Ell will have her family butchered in front of her. That said, I propose A theory that probably won't happen but I'd enjoy at this point.

Ardon and 45 will attempt to fight Dire and he'll toy with them rather then kill them cause he's an ego manic and there not a threat. And during this he will say/do something that will get him inside Ardon's head/past/memories/something. When that happens, he'll use how horrible Ardon is, and how much more of a monster he himself (this being Dire.) is, as an angle to screw with Ardon at a VERY deep level which will, perhaps not immediately, result in him growing some spine and a larger chunk of empathy. He'll still be something of a jerk and loathed to admit when he's wrong or has screwed up, but will see him doing things to attempt to make amends for the really horrible things he'd done in life like stabbing the halfling for sake of convince or running down Ell's aunt and causing her to die and Ell to be orphaned for decades.


And the SoS will be in regular touch with Ell, but will have leveled her and geared her up proper to her level, and will have her be in charge of keeping Ardon in line during what there gonna end up treating as a probationary period/his rehab. Cause that's a very Paladinish thing to do.

Dragolord
2014-07-31, 01:03 AM
That's why I believe this option will be taken away at some point. I somehow doubt the rest of the comic will be about the wondrous adventures of the Sons of Solemnity, their new-found relative and her prospective boyfriend. :smallamused:

Don't be so sure! Lonestarnorth has said that "the upcoming arc" (this one) will have major changes in the comic's dynamic. Although, personally, I don't see her joining permanently, not seven levels below everyone else.

The Mormegil
2014-07-31, 03:55 AM
Here's a breaking point for me personally. The easy way out is to kill the SoS and it's what I expect. Surprise me, and you've done a good job and will keep me hooked for much longer. Go down a stale road and I guess I'll stick for a bit longer to see if you have some nice ideas but... yeah... meh comic.

Metahuman1
2014-07-31, 04:44 PM
Here's a breaking point for me personally. The easy way out is to kill the SoS and it's what I expect. Surprise me, and you've done a good job and will keep me hooked for much longer. Go down a stale road and I guess I'll stick for a bit longer to see if you have some nice ideas but... yeah... meh comic.

I'm inclined to agree. Personally, I could see them doing a time skip to level/gear up and do tactical training for Ell, Odi, Peanut and anyone else who survives and stays with them to get them up a few levels before moving on to less of a black comedy focus and getting into more dramatic/larger scale events after Dealing with Dire and possibly Ardon's Dad (at least temporarily.). I could see that, and that would be good since as I've mentioned, even though Ardon Win's points at times, he's also prone to doing horrible horrible things that make liking him at best a struggle, and hell, we've already set 45 up to double cross them, the only question was when precisely, how precisely, and how effective will it be.

Anteros
2014-08-01, 03:47 AM
I feel like Ell is going to realize that her dad isn't a very good paladin.

What kind of paladin teaches you to choose between the lesser of two evils? Dude completely misses the point of being a paladin at all.

Lizard Lord
2014-08-01, 03:57 AM
The last panel made me respect Erald and I believe him when he says he is sorry. He is certainly harsh about it, but protecting people is and always has been his number one priority. I do consider him an example of a good paladin, regardless of of whether or not he is in the wrong with the Avenger Prime. (Although with it being a family heirloom it maybe that he does have some right to it after all. Granted his wife (forget her name) would have more right to it being a blood descendant, but she seems to favor axes anyways.)

Lord Raziere
2014-08-01, 04:26 AM
I feel like Ell is going to realize that her dad isn't a very good paladin.

What kind of paladin teaches you to choose between the lesser of two evils? Dude completely misses the point of being a paladin at all.

Yeah. The Lesser Evil is still evil. You choose Zero Evil (also known as Good), that is what a paladin is about.

but then again....this is a 4e paladin. There is only five alignments in this edition: Lawful good, good, unaligned, evil and chaotic evil, and a paladin in 4e can take any one of them. clearly not chaotic evil. but doesn't feel lawful good. so could be a very cynical interpretation of good, unaligned as "anti-hero" or a very passive Evil.

Lizard Lord
2014-08-01, 05:32 AM
I feel like Ell is going to realize that her dad isn't a very good paladin.

What kind of paladin teaches you to choose between the lesser of two evils? Dude completely misses the point of being a paladin at all.

Nevermind the fact that the cleric and other paladin agrees with him. No this is clearly just Erald being a bad paladin. :smallannoyed:

Not trying to rescue someone you can't rescue while putting your whole party at even greater risk and likely letting the bad guy get away with his evil plans (making it so that you can't save the people he has cursed nor stop the curse from spreading) is not evil,(thus not the lesser of two). It doesn't make you feel good because people are still dying, but frankly what would you do? Being a paladin does not give you the magic ability to have a solution for everything.

Or necessarily increase your problem solving skills at all really.

Marnath
2014-08-01, 07:28 AM
Yeah. The Lesser Evil is still evil. You choose Zero Evil (also known as Good), that is what a paladin is about.


That is patently absurd. Thinking like that is how DM's railroad the paladin into "you fall, period" territory. Sometimes there isn't a Zero Evil option, you just have to work for the best outcome that is within your power to make happen. You don't get to punish the paladin for something he is powerless to change.

Macros
2014-08-01, 07:46 AM
The problem, in this particular situation, is that they don't even try. They wrote off Forty-five and Ardon (and Peanuts, but it seems he was kind of forgotten in this strip) as regrettable losses, and well, you know, that's that. It's certainly a very pragmatic decision, but hardly a good one. Especially given that by their own estimates, they have a very good chance of saving them : after all, Ardon & co should be bogged down in the dungeon, still far from Dirge, right? It wouldn't even be that dangerous for the SoS since the way might be cleared before them by the previous party. Obviously, I'm presenting a "best case" scenario, but what kind of paladin pull back because there's a chance that things go wrong? And I have a sneaking suspicion that if it was Ell and not Ardon out there, the decision would have been reversed in a heartbeat.

Now, Lord Raziere is right to point out that paladins in 4e can be of any alignment, and have a lot more lattitude to act. But I don't think I would peg Erald (and by extension, the others, since they didn't really argue the point) as Lawful Good.

Marnath
2014-08-01, 08:07 AM
Obviously, I'm presenting a "best case" scenario, but what kind of paladin pull back because there's a chance that things go wrong? And I have a sneaking suspicion that if it was Ell and not Ardon out there, the decision would have been reversed in a heartbeat.


The kind that is smart enough to know he can't do good deeds anymore if he does something stupid and gets his team killed? Waiting for an actual window of opportunity to kill the BBEG at the expense of two people who knew what they were getting into is a much better long term plan than rushing in, getting killed along with the two they will have failed to save anyway, and letting the BBEG go around killing dozens or hundreds more innocent people completely at will.

Macros
2014-08-01, 08:28 AM
And that's the worse case scenario, and the one Erald decided to follow. But it doesn't mean it has to turn up that way, and if we add up all the assumption they made, it isn't even likely to turn up that way. Heck, have they even considered that giving Dirge the time to get his hands on the rest of the party means he will probably be aware that the SoS are near and coming soon?

All in all, I thought that this decision was not Good, and not even that smart.

Metahuman1
2014-08-01, 12:01 PM
Your also missing the fact that he's seen Ardon preform Cold Blooded Murder just cause it was expedient, and he knows Ardon's going at this for nothing but personal gain. This is a person who, if not sentenced to execution, is gonna have to be contained for a very long time because he is extremely dangerous in his own right. Why should he put his family, his friends and his adventuring party at risk and risk loosing a powerful artifact too the enemy and letting him go on to kill countless more innocents to save someone like that when all that someone had to do to not need saving was do what he'd instructed him to.





That said, I have a new theory:

Ardon and 45 will get to Archwarlock. Archwarlock will know who Ardon is and about the bounty and be interested in obtaining it since hey, idiot dropped him self in my lap, might as well. 45 will refuse to help Ardon because this is a thing he brought on himself that will get him killed and tell Dire "Hey, since I could have stopped him form dropping in your lap, split it with you?" to which Dire will say "Sure." cause why have unneeded fuss?


And so in the time between this and the SoS getting there, Dire is gonna Torture Ardon horribly, physically and mentally, and then the SoS are gonna get there and end up saving him, and being slightly participating in the battle Ell will gain a level and be like 1 XP away form gaining another one, and Ardon will have 1) Been rather brutally punished above and beyond what any law the SoS would recognize as just would ever allow and thus decide he's done his time for what he's done up to that point (That they know of at least.), and that there gonna help Ell with keeping an eye on him in the interests of rehabbing him. This will be exasperated when they get back to south Crossing and Ardon's dad springs his trap, and we need both party's and possibly the elf chick (and also possibly minus 45 depending on how things pan out.) to deal with him for the next several arcs.

stsasser
2014-08-01, 12:14 PM
That is patently absurd. Thinking like that is how DM's railroad the paladin into "you fall, period" territory. Sometimes there isn't a Zero Evil option, you just have to work for the best outcome that is within your power to make happen. You don't get to punish the paladin for something he is powerless to change.

He could have chosen to be something other than a paladin. As is, he should be confronted with the consequences of having adopted an absolutist world view in exchange for the advantages of paladin-hood.

Marnath
2014-08-01, 01:30 PM
He could have chosen to be something other than a paladin. As is, he should be confronted with the consequences of having adopted an absolutist world view in exchange for the advantages of paladin-hood.

Failure is not a violation of the paladin code. :smallannoyed:

"Advantages of paladin-hood?" What, is the class not terrible in 4e? Because it was sure terrible in 3.5e. :smallwink:

Lord Raziere
2014-08-01, 01:37 PM
ok, I'm wrong about the Zero Evil thing. kay?

but keep in mind: paladins are not 3.5 code-bounders. they're a class with variance like anyone else. chaotic evil paladin is not even an oxymoron in 4e. I doubt he is the classic paladin at all. I'll just assume that he is either Good or Unaligned, since he is opposing an Evil being.

dancrilis
2014-08-01, 04:06 PM
Just to throw my bit in here, I like the comic - particularly the black comedy, reminds me of 8-Bit Theater meets Order of the Stick.

So fair play to the author.

I get that some people want to see evil punished and soundly defeated - but since that seems to be the norm I do kind of like to see it broken and played with at times (as happens on this comic).

Metahuman1
2014-08-01, 04:40 PM
The problem is becoming that Ardon ALWAYS get's away with it. Usually Scot free.

8-bit theater worked cause the bad people in the group, especially black mage, always or at least often had it back fire on them.

dancrilis
2014-08-01, 05:38 PM
The problem is becoming that Ardon ALWAYS get's away with it. Usually Scot free.

8-bit theater worked cause the bad people in the group, especially black mage, always or at least often had it back fire on them.

Yea like that time they destroyed a town three times, or that time they destroyed another town, or serial killed a whole much of people as part of a protection racket before destroying a town, or destroyed a bunch of dwarf towns to spell out a message, or when they tricked a demon into destroying a town.

Karma really bite them on the ass for those.
Except for the fact that it didn't at all touch them for any of those to memory - and I could probably list more town destroying examples if I thought about it. Not to mention crimes that were not related to destroying a town, or attempted crimes (but than is attempted rape/murder-necrophilia really that bad - don't give prizes for attempted chemistry after all).

I don't want to assume but I think you might be somewhat misremembering some of the stuff they got away with (which is not to say my own memory is perfect, perhaps some of the above did have consequences that I am blanking on).

Which my the way is in no way a criticism of 8-Bit Theater it was an excellent well written humourous series, but not really a thesis on moral behaviour demonstrating how good people get rewarded and bad people get punished / more how powerful people get what they want and weaker people get stepped on (of course there is frequently a more powerful person to do additional stepping).
So in a way more realistic.

LoneStarNorth
2014-08-01, 05:57 PM
I feel like sparking a paladin alignment debate on GitP forums is puberty for a D&D webcomic. My little baby is becoming a man before my very eyes.

stsasser
2014-08-01, 07:42 PM
Failure is not a violation of the paladin code. :smallannoyed:

Passing summary judgement on Ardon may seem pragmatic, but when were paladins ever supposed to be pragmatic?
It certainly isn't lawful, not any more than executing an ogre without any previous trial or inquiry.
I wouldn't be surprised if Avenger Prime refuses to power up for him the next time he tries to use it...which would be a TERRIBLE thing to happen just when he's confronting Krakaboom. :smallbiggrin:


"Advantages of paladin-hood?" What, is the class not terrible in 4e? Because it was sure terrible in 3.5e. :smallwink:

Yet some doofus will still choose it...go figure.:smallconfused:

Anteros
2014-08-01, 09:30 PM
Nevermind the fact that the cleric and other paladin agrees with him. No this is clearly just Erald being a bad paladin. :smallannoyed:

Not trying to rescue someone you can't rescue while putting your whole party at even greater risk and likely letting the bad guy get away with his evil plans (making it so that you can't save the people he has cursed nor stop the curse from spreading) is not evil,(thus not the lesser of two). It doesn't make you feel good because people are still dying, but frankly what would you do? Being a paladin does not give you the magic ability to have a solution for everything.

Or necessarily increase your problem solving skills at all really.

I would expect an adventuring party that has been together for 20+ years to hold similar ideals. It doesn't make them right.
They explicitly have another option...it's just a greater danger to themselves so they don't take it.


Your also missing the fact that he's seen Ardon preform Cold Blooded Murder just cause it was expedient, and he knows Ardon's going at this for nothing but personal gain.

The only thing he's seen Ardon do was kill goblins that were actively attacking him, kill an ogre that Ardon explicitly stated was to prevent it from getting back up and attacking townspeople, and immediately surrender into his custody upon demand. We know Ardon is a cold blooded murderer who deserves death. Erald has no such evidence. Actually, his only interaction with Ardon has Ardon actively putting himself at risk to protect the townspeople, even after learning there was no reward. He simply disapproves of his methods....because apparently black and white morality is fine...as long as it applies to other people and not himself.

He's also fully aware that Ardon is currently under the influence of a spell that is lowering his intelligence and ability to make good decisions, yet takes no such consideration for that fact. Add that to the fact that he immediately chastised El for protecting herself from those attacking her, and then tried to steal her sword, and now wants to leave people to die in exchange for a potential tactical advantage? He's just as much a walking stereotype of a "bad paladin" character as Miko was.


That is patently absurd. Thinking like that is how DM's railroad the paladin into "you fall, period" territory. Sometimes there isn't a Zero Evil option, you just have to work for the best outcome that is within your power to make happen. You don't get to punish the paladin for something he is powerless to change.

Any paladin in one of my campaigns that wrote other people off to certain death in order to lessen danger to himself would indeed be put on a very short leash and in danger of falling if such behavior continued.

If there isn't a zero evil option, the paladin has to try to create one. If you don't want to do that, play another class. He doesn't get to condemn other people to death that he hardly knows because they aren't worth saving, or he thinks his own life is more important. You also don't get to condemn people to death in order to prevent a potential threat in the future. That's fine behavior for other characters...even good ones. A paladin? No.

He's literally leaving people to die in exchange for a tactical advantage. That isn't something paladins do.


Edit: Apparently none of this matters since it's 4E and it's perfectly acceptable for "paladins" to be morally grey or even evil. I wasn't aware of this change until just now.

Lizard Lord
2014-08-02, 01:06 AM
The problem, in this particular situation, is that they don't even try. They wrote off Forty-five and Ardon (and Peanuts, but it seems he was kind of forgotten in this strip) as regrettable losses, and well, you know, that's that. It's certainly a very pragmatic decision, but hardly a good one. Especially given that by their own estimates, they have a very good chance of saving them

They don't think they have good chance of saving them. "But if we go after them now, we probably won't be there in time to save them and the risk to US will be greater besides."

Anteros
2014-08-02, 03:27 AM
They don't think they have good chance of saving them. "But if we go after them now, we probably won't be there in time to save them and the risk to US will be greater besides."

So you don't see any problem with a PALADIN saying "oh well, we probably can't help them, why should we risk ourselves?"

Marnath
2014-08-02, 07:24 AM
I would expect an adventuring party that has been together for 20+ years to hold similar ideals. It doesn't make them right.
They explicitly have another option...it's just a greater danger to themselves so they don't take it.



The only thing he's seen Ardon do was kill goblins that were actively attacking him, kill an ogre that Ardon explicitly stated was to prevent it from getting back up and attacking townspeople, and immediately surrender into his custody upon demand. We know Ardon is a cold blooded murderer who deserves death. Erald has no such evidence. Actually, his only interaction with Ardon has Ardon actively putting himself at risk to protect the townspeople, even after learning there was no reward. He simply disapproves of his methods....because apparently black and white morality is fine...as long as it applies to other people and not himself.

Killing the goblins was murder. Killing the ogre was murder. Ardon put himself at risk because he's INT damaged, not because he wants to save innocents.


He's also fully aware that Ardon is currently under the influence of a spell that is lowering his intelligence and ability to make good decisions, yet takes no such consideration for that fact. Add that to the fact that he immediately chastised El for protecting herself from those attacking her, and then tried to steal her sword, and now wants to leave people to die in exchange for a potential tactical advantage? He's just as much a walking stereotype of a "bad paladin" character as Miko was.

He chastised her for using lethal damage, not for taking them down. As I understand, in 4e there isn't even an attack penalty for non-lethal. He's not really stealing the sword so much as "borrowed it without asking and hasn't quite given it back yet." She hasn't asked for it back yet either, though. Also she was about to retire a few rounds ago so she wouldn't technically have needed it anymore.




You also don't get to condemn people to death in order to prevent a potential threat in the future. That's fine behavior for other characters...even good ones. A paladin? No.

He's literally leaving people to die in exchange for a tactical advantage. That isn't something paladins do.


Paladins and good people aren't required to kill themselves for no reason every time some moron gets into a bad situation, like say attacking a stupidly-high level caster without help. It's lawful good, not lawful stupid. If they behaved the way you describe they would never save anyone, instead of saving mostly everyone. You know, on account of having thrown their lives away instead of trying to accomplish something effectively.

The Mormegil
2014-08-02, 07:43 AM
I feel like sparking a paladin alignment debate on GitP forums is puberty for a D&D webcomic. My little baby is becoming a man before my very eyes.

Hahahah!

(Also @paladin stuff: this is why I never play with alignment)

Macros
2014-08-02, 11:44 AM
They don't think they have good chance of saving them. "But if we go after them now, we probably won't be there in time to save them and the risk to US will be greater besides."

Oh, I wasn't refering to that line... I was just saying that by their own logic, if you think about it, they'll probably reach Ardon before he'll reach Dirge. Is it a certainty? Of course not. But as they are, they actually stand a very good chance to make it in time.

Plus, as I mentioned before, it's not even a smart decision to pull back. Doing that actually increases the chance of Krakaboom guy to be ready for them (or just leaving, if he's in that kind of things). To sum up, I found this decision morally debatable (but in no way incompatible with a 4e paladins : they're now champions of their gods, and not of an ideal of good, and we don't know which god Erald follows... I think?) AND tactically unsound.

Anteros
2014-08-02, 06:41 PM
Killing the goblins was murder. Killing the ogre was murder. Ardon put himself at risk because he's INT damaged, not because he wants to save innocents.


Killing something that is actively attacking you as well as those around you is not murder, it's self defense. As for Ardon's motivations, Erald doesn't know those.


He chastised her for using lethal damage, not for taking them down. As I understand, in 4e there isn't even an attack penalty for non-lethal.

He chastised her for defending herself. Should people use non-lethal damage every single time they're attacked just in case the attacker happens to be mind controlled without their knowledge? That's a ridiculous position to take.


He's not really stealing the sword so much as "borrowed it without asking and hasn't quite given it back yet." She hasn't asked for it back yet either, though. Also she was about to retire a few rounds ago so she wouldn't technically have needed it anymore.

There is a word for this. It's called "stealing". You don't get to take people's stuff just because they haven't asked you not to, or because you think you need it more than them.


Paladins and good people aren't required to kill themselves for no reason every time some moron gets into a bad situation, like say attacking a stupidly-high level caster without help. It's lawful good, not lawful stupid. If they behaved the way you describe they would never save anyone, instead of saving mostly everyone. You know, on account of having thrown their lives away instead of trying to accomplish something effectively.

They aren't required to kill themselves for no reason. If going after Ardon, 45, and Peanut meant certain death I would agree with your position. It doesn't though. They're trading their lives for a slight tactical advantage.

It's not even a good tactical advantage either, because if Ardon gets caught he's going to warn Dire that they're coming.

Lizard Lord
2014-08-03, 12:25 AM
Oh, I wasn't refering to that line... I was just saying that by their own logic, if you think about it, they'll probably reach Ardon before he'll reach Dirge. Is it a certainty? Of course not. But as they are, they actually stand a very good chance to make it in time.

What logic are you going with here? Do you mean the logic that they fully expect Ardonto die before he ever reaches Dire, thus ensuring that whenever they get to Dire it will be before Ardon? Ell's mom says "probably" but I think she really means "almost certainly". They have no idea about the Kobold Dungeon Builder Union and no way of knowing that there would be an employee entrance (not even to mention the odds that Ardon would find it).

Everything else in that dungeon can and would easily kill Ardon (the SoS can assume this much about the place) and we already know he ran into one thing they couldn't handle before he even got inside the dungeon. Make no mistake, Ardon is only alive (and only likely to reach Dire at all) because he lucked out big time.

Also as far as "they don't know Ardon is evil" (not you, but someone else said it) how is killing an unconscious sentient being because of something he might do while effectively mind controlled less evil than what the paladins are saying? True they don't know Ardon is evil, but they certainly have cause to suspect. Even then that is more a footnote in their reasoning than anything else.

Of course, with all this said, Ell may convince them yet (and mostly I don't fault them either way). I am not discounting that possibility. I know that Ardon is not going to die, but there is no way he is taking out Dire by himself without a major Deus Ex Machina.

The Mormegil
2014-08-04, 04:06 AM
He chastised her for defending herself. Should people use non-lethal damage every single time they're attacked just in case the attacker happens to be mind controlled without their knowledge? That's a ridiculous position to take.

Just a quick note: it's not a ridiculous position. It's what is expected in our society at the very least. You don't kill people for being aggressed upon unless you have no other choice. You don't make your own justice. We have tribunals and prisons for murderers too.