Endurance-really that crappy?

[PaucaTerrorem]

It lets you sleep in medium or heavy armor. Don't know bout yall but we get hit at night. Something I'm missing?

[Amphetryon]

It lets you sleep in medium or heavy armor. Don't know bout yall but we get hit at night. Something I'm missing?

Unless all of your combats take place during the night watch, there are probably more consistently useful choices to make with your limited Feats. This is particularly true because Medium Armor is largely seen as a trap option, because very few Character concepts benefit substantially more over the course of their career from Heavy Armor vs. Light Armor and additional defenses, and because the effects of Endurance are available from at least one Magical Enhancement and at least one spell.

If, on the other hand, all of your combats are taking place during the night watch after the heavily-armored members of the party have stripped off their armor, perhaps you might consider talking to the DM about why the enemies are being so curiously consistent in their tactics.

[hymer]

You can always sleep in light armour without getting fatigued. Endurance allows you to sleep in medium armour without getting fatigued, not heavy. 'Called' is a 2000gp enhancement that allows you to don armour as a standard action.
Thus, Endurance is really rather poor.

Edit: I'd say that I was swordsaged by Amphetryon, but it seems to me it was more like getting toad'ed by the server this time.

[Worira]

Also, sleeping in Rope Tricks.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Wow. I feel like crap. Read that feat wrong for 3 years. This also changes things for my cleric. Do I:

1)Suck it up. Keep the feat and my plan of adamantine full plate

2)Change to mithral full plate

3)Try to talk my DM into letting me retrain the feat

Also on a side note, we're level 8. I just read up on Bone Knight. I want but it'll take me 6 levels just to qualify giving me only 6 levels in the PrC unless we go epic. It'll be my second PrC and multi-class penalties do apply. Mechanically speaking in a low-op party, is it worth it?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd say do both 2 and 3. Surely at some point, an item of Dex +2 and later Dex +4 is going to be affordable, and about on par w/ what it'd cost to enhance your armor another +1 anyway. But Endurance is still a bad feat. Most who take it do so for Steadfast Determination...not sure that'd be so useful to a cleric.

[docnessuno]

Also on a side note, we're level 8. I just read up on Bone Knight. I want but it'll take me 6 levels just to qualify giving me only 6 levels in the PrC unless we go epic. It'll be my second PrC and multi-class penalties do apply. Mechanically speaking in a low-op party, is it worth it?

Optimization wise? No, outside some very specific build. Very few PRCs with empty caster levels are.
Should you take it? Well that's for your to decide, not all character choices are made with optimization in mind.
Also, multiclass penalties (unless house-ruled) apply only to base classes, not to PRCs.

[Particle_Man]

If you have one of those rare DMs that loves having characters deal with environmental effects, it might see more value.

Also, it is a prerequisite for other feats (and the occasional prestige class), some of which are interesting.

[Nihilarian]

If you have one of those rare DMs that loves having characters deal with environmental effects, it might see more value.

Also, it is a prerequisite for other feats (and the occasional prestige class), some of which are interesting.Steadfast Determination is practically two feats in one, so it makes up a bit for Endurance. As a cleric, though, you probably don't want it.

Edit: Bone Knight is solid enough. Not sure why it would take you so long to qualify for it. Though.

[Spore]

Endurance in itself is just a very handy ability. Still, it offers non-consistent combat benefits. In one combat you have an armor while others don't but in most cases the feat simply fails to give you anything. It offers not enough for its costs.

If you would get autosuccess on all scenarios where it gives you a +4 bonus and something like +1 on Fort saves it would be worthwhile and still not in every build.

[zlefin]

Also, even if you use heavy armor most of the time, you can keep a basic suit of light armor for sleeping so you're never unarmored.

[tyckspoon]

Edit: Bone Knight is solid enough. Not sure why it would take you so long to qualify for it. Though.

Skill rank pre-reqs, probably; I'm guessing he doesn't already have Craft: Armor or Ride ranks, and as he's probably a class with only 2 skillpoints/level and no special reason to invest in Int, that's a pretty rough requirement to start from scratch.

@ Worth of Bone Knight question: I would say no, unless you can get your DM to let you retrain your skill points or get somebody to Psychic Reformation you so you can enter sooner. The big benefit of Bone Knight is getting Undead immunities without actually becoming Undead (and thus losing your Con score and becoming subject to a variety of nasty Undead-hosing spells and effects), and you don't get most of those until level 8.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Skill rank pre-reqs, probably; I'm guessing he doesn't already have Craft: Armor or Ride ranks, and as he's probably a class with only 2 skillpoints/level and no special reason to invest in Int, that's a pretty rough requirement to start from scratch.

@ Worth of Bone Knight question: I would say no, unless you can get your DM to let you retrain your skill points or get somebody to Psychic Reformation you so you can enter sooner. The big benefit of Bone Knight is getting Undead immunities without actually becoming Undead (and thus losing your Con score and becoming subject to a variety of nasty Undead-hosing spells and effects), and you don't get most of those until level 8.

Dead on. 6 Levels just ain't worth it for the CL loss(already took one CL with Ordained Champion). Any way for some quick and dirty ranks that don't include multi-classing?

[(Un)Inspired]

If you're a cleric you never need to sleep. You don't need to rest each day to replenish your spells and a single lesser restoration a day can prevent you from ever getting fatigued from lack of sleep.

Just stay on watch all night long every night in full armor.

[Afgncaap5]

Would it be possible for you to retrain one or two of those skill points per level? If retraining the feat is an option, then retraining skills (one or two at a time) seems like it might not be too problematic.

On the other hand, if you don't want to sacrifice your current skill points for your character concept or build design, then yeah, it'll take you a bit to get to Bone Knight.

[King Atticus]

A restful crystal (MIC pg26) is only 500gp and can be added to armor of at least masterwork quality. That feat slot can be worth considerably more than that. So spend a little gold, retrain that feat and rest easy :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Dead on. 6 Levels just ain't worth it for the CL loss(already took one CL with Ordained Champion). Any way for some quick and dirty ranks that don't include multi-classing?
The feat Open-Minded gives you 5 skill points to spend immediately.

[PaucaTerrorem]

The feat Open-Minded gives you 5 skill points to spend immediately.

What book? DM hates splat feats but is *apologies* open minded about things.

[King Atticus]

Complete Adventurer or Expanded Psionics Handbook

[tyckspoon]

If you're ok with the idea of dropping another CL advancement, I'd consider just going on to Ordained Champion 4. The class features you get are all pretty sweet for a 'my sword arm is the strength of my god!' face-smashy kind of Cleric. It does kind of overload your Swift action, but on the up side, you pretty much always have something to do with your Swift action without paying the cost of Quickening all your spells.

[Karnith]

What book? DM hates splat feats but is *apologies* open minded about things.

Complete Adventurer or Expanded Psionics Handbook
It's also available for free here on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded).

[PaucaTerrorem]

If I drop another CL, Bone Knight makes more sense. Evil battle cleric with undead legion bent on domination. Also, totally worth it if I can get at least 8 levels Bone Knight. The immunities it gives is too tempting. And I also know that at the end of this campaign we'll take a break with something else then come back as the good guys. My evil cleric will make a greater villain this way.

[nedz]

The main complaint about endurance is that Rangers get it for free, but have several class features which only work in light armour anyway. Endurance does have other benefits, but they rarely seem to be relevant.

[Story]

The main complaint about endurance is that Rangers get it for free, but have several class features which only work in light armour anyway. Endurance does have other benefits, but they rarely seem to be relevant.

No the real problem is that feats are valuable and Endurance only gives you some small, highly situational benefits that can be cheaply bought if the need ever arises.

For example a +4 bonus on fort saves in hot conditions is kind of silly when for the same feat you could have just given yourself Fire Resistance 10. Sleeping in armor can be bought for just 500gp or you could make yourself outright immune to fatigue with the Heavy Legs graft for 6k, and so on.

[Zaq]

One of the many problems with Endurance is that if you're not making it totally pointless through good planning (one might even be so bold as to say that it only takes non-bad planning), then unless everyone in the party has it, it's still not going to do you a hell of a lot of good. How often does only one person have to make a forced march? If you're forced marching, then Rory the Ranger (with his Endurance that he didn't manage to trade away somehow) will be able to resist some or all of the nonlethal damage, but the rest of the party's going to be hurting. So we have three options: Rory has to basically carry his team (probably figuratively, hopefully not literally) through whatever encounters occur after the forced march (which is, to be honest, unlikely), OR the nonlethal damage the rest of the party took isn't enough to actually make them useless (in which case Endurance did jack all), OR the party realizes that they're in bad shape and manages to avoid combat until they can rest up (in which case Endurance didn't actually even come up).

It's not just forced marching, either. How often will ONE person be dealing with starvation or thirst? How often will ONE person be dealing with extreme temperatures? Holding your breath is arguably even worse. And if only one person comes out of whatever Endurance-triggering ordeal in good shape, then is the party going to want to just let them take care of everything? Or are they going to say "well Rory, it's just ducky that you're feeling so damned chipper and energetic, but the rest of us are about to pass out, so we're going to just hole up here and you're going to deal. Why don't you take first watch if you're so awake?" I do understand that you don't always control where and when encounters happen, but I still don't like the odds (either the odds of such encounters happening or the odds of Rory saving the day when the rest of the party is worn out).

The medium armor issue has already been addressed, and so has Steadfast Determination. But yeah. If it even technically comes up, it's not all that likely to actually matter, just because of how party dynamics work.

[nedz]

No the real problem is that feats are valuable and Endurance only gives you some small, highly situational benefits that can be cheaply bought if the need ever arises.

For example a +4 bonus on fort saves in hot conditions is kind of silly when for the same feat you could have just given yourself Fire Resistance 10. Sleeping in armor can be bought for just 500gp or you could make yourself outright immune to fatigue with the Heavy Legs graft for 6k, and so on.

Yes but who actually takes Endurance as a feat? People dip three levels of Ranger if they need it, rather than spending a feat.

[Amphetryon]

Yes but who actually takes Endurance as a feat? People dip three levels of Ranger if they need it, rather than spending a feat.

I'd go even further and wager that the majority of the people who 'need' Endurance only want it for access to particular PrCs. Whether those PrCs are worth the Endurance Feat is a different matter entirely, and likely extremely subjective.

[Story]

It depends. If you're a spellcaster, three class levels is worth a lot more than a feat. Of course you're unlikely to want Endurance in the first place.

[Artillery]

Magic Item Compendium, Restful Crystal. 500gp, lets you sleep in armor without being fatigued.

500gp for a feat.

[Petrocorus]

Wow. I feel like crap. Read that feat wrong for 3 years. This also changes things for my cleric. Do I:

1)Suck it up. Keep the feat and my plan of adamantine full plate

Go adamantine Full Plate as you wished and grab a Restful Crystal from MIC p.26 as others have said.


2)Change to mithral full plate

Useless as per point 1)


3)Try to talk my DM into letting me retrain the feat

Yes, you need to retrain the feat, as other have pointed out. And while you're at it, ask to retrain skills to qualify earlier for Bone Knight.

Is there psionics in your world? Psychic Reformation would probably be the best way.

Open Minded may suit you if non of this is possible, but rest aware that it is also considered as a crappy feat which don't give much for the cost.

[Andezzar]

Magic Item Compendium, Restful Crystal. 500gp, lets you sleep in armor without being fatigued.

500gp for a feat.Called armor lets you suit up with a standard action for 2000 gp.

[Cuaqchi]

Called armor lets you suit up with a standard action for 2000 gp.

Depending on how you fluff it it can also have that whole He-Man/Iron Man image which is just cool.

[nedz]

I'd go even further and wager that the majority of the people who 'need' Endurance only want it for access to particular PrCs. Whether those PrCs are worth the Endurance Feat is a different matter entirely, and likely extremely subjective.

Yes, that was my subtext; though Endurance is a pre-req for several feats too. Whether any of those feats is worth spending two feats on though is questionable.

[Magikeeper]

Yes, that was my subtext; though Endurance is a pre-req for several feats too. Whether any of those feats is worth spending two feats on though is questionable.

Steadfast Determination can be very useful. So much so that I have taken endurance before on a number of PCs/NPCs, and have seen it taken on several others. Off the top of my head I can't think of a situation where endurance itself actually mattered though. Maybe.. once?

I'd say endurance itself is not a very useful feat.