Vow of poverty

[maniacalmojo]

So why specifically is VOP bad?

Not arguing if it is or not (I figured it is not) but i am a swordsage with it and i am the most effective character in the group. I was allowed to have a weak katana by the DM (story>rules) but yeah, i have around 25-26 ac so i very seldom get hit, i get sustenance and such so i do not have to eat or worry about climates (the DM likes difficult terrain and travel so most the party gets beat up without even getting to an encounter) We are only level 6 but i am able to face multiple CR 7 monsters when the rest of the group struggles for a few of them

The DM is not very forgoing with magic items or wealth so it may be a WBL argument, but the list of gear in the PHB does not seem that overly amazing without spending ridiculous amounts of money.

[Yanisa]

Firstly, it does depend on the game or the DM. In low magic campaigns or when the DM is stingy with gold or loot Vow of Poverty gets better, kinda...

Secondly, gold in a sense is limitless, whatever VoP can do, magic items can do, or do better. Even if there is a heavy price, in time you will reach that amount. On average the WBL allows better bonuses then VoP. And there are many ways of earning a lot of gold besides that.

Thirdly, VoP lacks a lot of necessaries abilities and allows you to never get them trough magic items. Things like flight, immunity to varies magic attacks, etc. (The list is long and endless)

Doesn't stop VoP being a interesting flavor if that is your kind of thing and like my first point, it can be halfway decent in certain campaigns. But when both enemies and friends start flying you are standing there, wondering why you cant throw your katana to at least deal some ranged damage... you realize why VoP is bad. :smalltongue:

[SinsI]

Mainly, you lose access to http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

If you can somehow overcome it via your own abilities (i.e. you are playing gestalt Totemist/Druid), Vow of Poverty might be not so godawful.

Also, you can only use the bonus feats you get on exalted feats - and that makes them of very limited usefullness.

[Incanur]

VoP doesn't seem like a good idea for a swordsage if you've access to normal WBL or better, though at least you can get Balance on the Sky eventually. But you may want/need flight before then.

Mechanically, I think WBL does usually beat out VoP, particularly at higher levels. The druid (or wild shaping ranger) strikes me as exception. Even then you're probably better off with WBL at the higher levels - at least if you've got access to the MIC and other non-core items - but at lower levels VoP druids can be pretty ridiculous. Exalted Wild Shape as a bonus feat lets you turn into a blink dog with full supernatural abilities and you keep all VoP bonuses in the form. This gives VoP druids ridiculous defense at level 8. (The unicorn form is also useful.)

[maniacalmojo]

I have actually had no problem with fliers (actually i am the one the party relies on to take them out) I can mix sudden leap with a stance and a manover to get somewhere between 40-60 feet straight up if i want, Can also run up walls and jump off them with some skill tricks i got and attack for decent damage once i am up there (one time a spellcaster of some kind rose up and put a shield on himself but i jumped and slashed him, He failed his concentration roll so he took extra falling damage, what was supposed to be the BBEG in the current quest was a one shot for me)

A lot of what i saw on that list i do not need due to the sword sage as well, for instance i can use iron heart surge to negate mind blank/ stun/ daze/ fear. I can get a blindsight 30 in a level or two, while not as good as say true seeing i will not be flanked by invisible enemies. I basically have a tactical teleportation with sudden leap and will get freedom of movement eventually with VOP.

[Yanisa]

Well they still can fly a 100 feet above you, or 200 feet! Or a 1000 feet! Teleport that!

To be fair I am not to familiar with Swordsage, but based on your description it might work for a VoP in a low wealth/magic item campaign. Higher wealth might still end up being better.

Also most classes don't have the luxury of a Swordsage or a Druid. Most classes need items, not just magic items, also mundane. Many spellscasters have build in needs, like Spellbooks and Holy Symbols, and almost all non spellcasting classes need magic items to thrive. Don't forget your weapons too.

So for almost all classes VoP limits them in some way. And in many cases they loose access to that Lists of Necessary Magic Items.

Imagine being a monk*, not having your fancy iron heart surges and blind sight and easy teleportation, and then having to deal with VoP and Flying Invisible Enemies that Shoot Rays of Death. :smalltongue:

*Replace monk with any non spell casting class for the same effect.

[maniacalmojo]

Ha i guess you are right, my character might be an exception to the normal badness of this feat.

Also i am not usually one to turn down free feats but i get way more exalted feats then i know what to do with.

[SinsI]

You can't take actions if you are Stunned, Dazed or Panicked, so Iron Heart Surge won't help you (requires standard action).
Mind blank is not something you negate - it is something you want to have to protect you from, say, Dominate Person.

[Namfuak]

Ha i guess you are right, my character might be an exception to the normal badness of this feat.

Also i am not usually one to turn down free feats but i get way more exalted feats then i know what to do with.

The best feats to take are the ones you dark chaos shuffle off. However, you could maybe try to convince your DM to let you take any feat from BoED, and maybe a few other flavor-compliant feats, like appropriate devotion feats from Complete Champion.

[maniacalmojo]

you can use iron heart surge as a counter at any point you are under the effects as i understand it.

There are exalted feats to prevent divination from evil sources. Not as effective vs non evil sources but..

[Tysis]

Sudden leap isn't a replacement for tactical teleportation. Sudden leap wont get you out of grapples or solid fog and the like. Also jumping counts against movement speed for that round.

Also worth noting that by the time VOP gives you freedom of movement casters will have forcecage and you don't have any means to teleport out.

Blindsight doesn't help with illusions and miss chances.

You're still going to have trouble with incorporeal enemies.

[maniacalmojo]

The best feats to take are the ones you dark chaos shuffle off. However, you could maybe try to convince your DM to let you take any feat from BoED, and maybe a few other flavor-compliant feats, like appropriate devotion feats from Complete Champion.

What feats would those be? With the exception of intuitive attack i did not see that much that would be useful. Many of them seemed to be for like druids or paladins.

[Telonius]

Swordsages (and ToB classes in general) are hurt somewhat less than usual by Vow of Poverty. They get class features that aren't gear-dependent; basically pseudo-casters in that regard. As you noticed, they do have ways to mitigate the usual weaknesses, and the maneuvers mean that you actually remain a threat while having the high AC.

But if the ways you get to mitigate the weaknesses are things the Swordsage would get whether or not they had any gear, then the Vow is still a net loss. You can still get bonuses higher than VoP gives, with WBL.

It's certainly possible for even a character with Vow of Poverty to be the most powerful character in a group. Some classes have very high power ceilings but very low floors; Wizard and Cleric are good examples of this. Tome of Battle classes have a higher floor. They're pretty hard to screw up. Even if you do something like take nothing but Stone Dragon and Desert Wind, they'll be more powerful than a poorly-built class with a higher power ceiling.

[docnessuno]

The problem of most WoP fans is they have played with the feat only in the early levels.

And in the early level it IS a good feat, providing bonuses greater that what WBL could provide (moreso for characters restricted to light or no armor).

The problems start showing up later on. If your DM follows even roughly the WBL, around level 10 you will notice that the bonuses you are getting are inferior to what you could have by magic-mart shopping. Around level 15 the disparity becomes really noticeable, and by level 20 it's embarrassingly wide.

[SinsI]

you can use iron heart surge as a counter at any point you are under the effects as i understand it.

Why do you think so? Iron Heart requires you to take Standard action. Those conditions explicitly say that you can't take any actions. Neither Iron Heart nor those conditions say anything about giving you ability to use it in cases when you can't take Standard action. So you can't.

[maniacalmojo]

Why do you think so? Iron Heart requires you to take Standard action. Those conditions explicitly say that you can't take any actions. Neither Iron Heart nor those conditions say anything about giving you ability to use it in cases when you can't take Standard action. So you can't.

sorry i read it as a counter and those are swift actions. You should still be able to end paralyze effects and the like even when normally not given actions otherwise it seems like a poison stopper.

Also yeah i am playing this character as a role play character (wandering samuri type) in a low wbl low magic game (so far) in early level. Was just seeing how it will hold in later levels.

[maniacalmojo]

read up on paralyze. you can only do mental actions which iron heart surge counts.

[Alcibiades]

Docnessuno has it right. Most theoretical high optimization works with high level characters. VoP falls off tremendously at the higher levels, hence why it's considered bad. On a level 6 swordsage, though, it's great and it'll continue to be great for a fair while.

[genericwit]

There's a good VoP fix on this very forum, somewhere, if you're not averse to homebrew.

It's a bit of a powerup, still ultimately less than WBL, but it gives you a little more versatility (eventual flight, some other cool stuff).

[Chronos]

Iron Heart Surge should be a purely mental action, but it isn't. All maneuvers are physical actions, and Iron Heart Surge provides no exception. It's just all around badly written, and doesn't allow you to do things that it should, and does allow you to do things that it shouldn't. But that's an entirely separate issue from Vow of Poverty, and if you and your DM have houseruled IHS in a way that you're both happy with, don't sweat it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The more meaningful class features you get, the less you need WBL and the better VoP gets. If, for some reason, your class features make using items normally a hassle (wildshape, incarnum, etc), VoP becomes even more useful. For a Druid, say, or a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF, it may even be better.

[Amphetryon]

you can use iron heart surge as a counter at any point you are under the effects as i understand it.

There are exalted feats to prevent divination from evil sources. Not as effective vs non evil sources but..

I presume you spent Feats in order to get Iron Heart Surge on your Swordsage?

[eggynack]

The more meaningful class features you get, the less you need WBL and the better VoP gets. If, for some reason, your class features make using items normally a hassle (wildshape, incarnum, etc), VoP becomes even more useful. For a Druid, say, or a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF, it may even be better.
Yeah, those are the two biggest ones. The third factor, though it's not as important, is that your class can actually get something useful out of those exalted feats. Otherwise, you end up with a pile of stigmata and knight of stars. Fortunately, between exalted wild shape, exalted companion, and intuitive attack, and big incentives to hit people with natural attacks, druids are also awesome at that.

As for the OP, it's likely that swordsages are a bit better than some classes at dealing with VoP. Your class gives you things to do, and it looks like you've been misreading IHS, and that covers a lot of WBL ground. However, if you're doing well with VoP, and the game isn't particularly low wealth, it is in spite of VoP, and not because of it. VoP is mostly just numbers, and items do things that transcend numbers, so just about any character that's good with VoP, including the druid, would be better if they just loaded up with items.

[maniacalmojo]

I presume you spent Feats in order to get Iron Heart Surge on your Swordsage?

Oh i took a level of warblade

warblade 1 swordsage 5.

[Big Fau]

Also i am not usually one to turn down free feats but i get way more exalted feats then i know what to do with.

That is one of the biggest issues. It looks tempting because you're spending 2 feats to get a handful more, but the number of options you have is significantly limited.