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Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 07:28 PM
Well, this is an unusual sort of situation, but I have a player with an aristocrat, who specializes in social skills. So yeah, he has +32 or so on diplomacy, and took leadership. He also homebrewed a prestige class for leadership, which essentially duplicated a few other prestige class abilities, and threw in doubled leadership progression (i.e., each class level gives +1 leadership score, as well as the 1 for the extra CL)

So, by level ten, with improved cohort, and extra followers, he has 26 leadership, and 270 1st level followers, etc. So he brings around 4 6'th level followers, etc :).

Amusingly, what he then did is used the NPC gear values, combined with the rules on professions, and he now has his own large town. 300 followers, married, with 3 kids ea. Using ther money, and that of his "house", he now has a pretty large town :D. This is actually pretty fun, though a hassle when he levels. Not only that, but with his diplomacy, he's using the epic progression so he can make "fanatic" followers ;). 10 minutes of talking, and voila! An effectively new follower. Not quite, but another thing, he pays commoners 100 gp to live in his town, and then makes them fanatics about him, so he doesn't even miss the money, because it is effectively donated to the town.

:smalltongue: Any ideas on what to do about this? There's no real problem, it's pretty fun, (though jokes about "The Sims" are rampant), but the issue I can think of is, he effectively solo kills anything of his ECL, or even 2 or 3 levels higher. Should I just send nastier enemies against him?

Essentially, I have the problem with powergaming, except it's not really :smallannoyed: .

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-01, 07:32 PM
1)leadership has nothing to do with Diplomacy modifiers, normally.
2)sounds like the custom prestige class might be the problem
3)Can this guy actually do anything, other than having a town?

You make some mention of his "solo-killing" things of his ECL, how is he doing this? Is it due to being followed around by a bunch of follower mooks? Some area-effect-using monsters would own him. There's also lots of situations where taking along a bunch of villagers isn't going to work. Like, in most dungeons. Or if you have to sneak around.

Now, I'm not saying you should find every way possible to screw this guy over. Especially if, like you say, it's not posing a huge problem. But be aware that followers don't allow him to win in every situation.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that you can't just take over the followers' money for yourself. I'll see if I can find a rules cite on that.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 07:42 PM
He can wipe the walls with most encounters, but his diplomacy has nothing to do with his leadership. It just helps a lot when anyone you talk to is a fanatic after a few minutes...

The prestige class maybe, but heck, he could do the same thing without it.

Lessee. He has 24 CHA (18+2+4(cloak)), level 10, 2 leadership feats, so 19 right there. Great renown, as he has been trumpeting his name throughout the lands. His town gets him a base of operations, and he counts as generous (gave 30% of his money to followers... heck, he has all of one magical item). So there's 24. If he took another leadership feat (practiced cohort, inspirational leadership), he gets a 25 again.

No difference.

Sec, he has negotiator/skill foc diplomacy, leadership, and... Ach. Messed up. He can't take the other leadership feats, as he only got one since then (cough... leadership bonus feats). So he'd have at least 23 anyway :/.

I see no real problem, it's fun, but taking the HoB arrow volley rules, even when most of his men are in town, make a pretty messy scene. Mostly though, he wins through good tactics...
"My archers hide in trees, and ready an action to shoot any orcs that leave the cave"
Bam, dead orcs.

BTW, his followers are fanatic, they'd die for him. At level 10, with decent tactics, 4 level 6 archers, I think 8 level 5 archers, a level 9 cohort sorceror, and a lot of level 4 guys, wipes out most enemies.

And yeah, most ways it's still possible to wipe him out. And anyway, he peaks about now, because he can't take epic leadership :D

Oh, and he's not taking the followers money for himself, he's using it on their town. His total value, on his own, is all of 17000 gold or so.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 07:46 PM
There is a difference. Leadership 25 is the maximum without epic levels. That is only 135 1st-level followers, who are all NPC-classed.

How is he getting +32 to Diplomacy?

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-01, 07:49 PM
It also sounds like you're letting him define how the combats are happening, which is going to give him an advantage. Why not make him go into the cave, where his archers won't be able to do much? Or use some NPCs with leadership themselves, and turn it into a mass-combat game instead of D&D.

Really, the best thing is probably to just talk to the guy, if it's making the game less fun.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 07:58 PM
+31 to diplomacy. K, 3 synergies, +13 from ranks, +7 CHA modifier, skill focus, negotiator. That's 6+13+7+3+2, or 31.

Oh yeah, and as it is, with his little used money, he could get a circlet of persuasion.

True, although forcing him to enter some areas could be difficult.

Not that the game is less fun, it is pretty fun right now.

Where does it define followers as having NPC classes? And lastly, he has extra followers, in HoB, which doubles the number of followers he has.

You think that's bad? We calculated, that by level 45 or so, he has about 100,000 followers. He has his own freakin' metropolis then, and with families, that's the size of Sigil :). Not like that will ever happen :D.

Or, he could have used a Psion, and taken Thrallherd. I wonder if there's an extra believers feat applying to that? But then... ah w/e, too anoying :P.

See http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=681538. That is abuse. This is relatively not.

Suzaku
2007-02-01, 08:05 PM
+31 to diplomacy. K, 3 synergies, +13 from ranks, +7 CHA modifier, skill focus, negotiator. That's 6+13+7+3+2, or 31.

Oh yeah, and as it is, with his little used money, he could get a circlet of persuasion.

True, although forcing him to enter some areas could be difficult.

Not that the game is less fun, it is pretty fun right now.

Where does it define followers as having NPC classes? And lastly, he has extra followers, in HoB, which doubles the number of followers he has.

You think that's bad? We calculated, that by level 45 or so, he has about 100,000 followers. He has his own freakin' metropolis then, and with families, that's the size of Sigil :). Not like that will ever happen :D.

If most of those followers have leadership themselves he might be able to have a nation oO.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 08:10 PM
The thing about NPC class-levels was a 3.0 rule that they neglected to bring into 3.5 - it was an excellent rule and made sure that Leadership only recruited NPC support, not NPC-hero-wanna-bes.
Thrallherds cannot select or gain benefit from Leadership.
At 10th-level, he is only eligible to an 8th-level cohort. I hope you're enforcing that.
Maybe you could post the PrC.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 08:13 PM
Try this thing on the wizards boards...

"Sam, being 6th level, qualifies for the Leadership feat. He takes it.
Using the myriad of ways in the thread I linked above, it is possible for Sam to have a leadership score of 21 or higher. He does.
A Leadership score of 21 means that you have 6th level followers. Sam does. His 6th Level follower is named Bob.
Bob, being 6th level, qualifies for the Leadership feat. He takes it.
Using the myriad of ways in the thread I linked above, it is possible for Bob to have a leadership score of 21 or higher. He does.
A Leadership score of 21 means that you have 6th level followers. Bob does. His 6th Level follower is named Ted.
Ted, being 6th level, qualifies for the Leadership feat. He takes it."

I don't have the PRC on me right now, I'll get it from him :/.

And no, he has a 9th level cohort. Improved cohort feat from HoB.

Actually, come to think of it, thrallherds need high INT, and his stats are somthing like 10, 15, 10, 12, 10, 18 base :/. And he wouldn't get all of the bonuses from being famous etc.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 08:16 PM
I don't go to the Wizards boards much. That sort of thing bores the crap out of me, frankly. While I'm rules-conscious, I'm not rules-oriented and would far rather create a suboptimal-but-fun character than an OMG-optimal-but-beardy character.

daggaz
2007-02-01, 08:20 PM
Send in an advanced succubus in disguise, who wants his followers for an entirely seperate and altogether selfish and evil plot of her own. See how he deals then.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 08:22 PM
They're friggin' fanatic, so they aren't being seduced.

"Lord, this woman is attempting to seduce me."
"Really... she might be a threat. Kill her."
"Yes master... *kisses feet*"
Not quite like that, but that is essentially how devoted these people are...

Roderick_BR
2007-02-01, 08:29 PM
Hmm...
1) I dont think you can get Leadership twice.
2) You can't have a cohort with the same or higher level than you.
3) The cohort is an NPC. The *DM* creates him. He don't need to have Leadership.
4) Not everyone will be a fanatical, and remember that diplomacy is not a mind control magical effect. You may sound completely right, and prove by A+B that you are correct. Someone out there will simply not like you.
5) Sending people to die in battles just because he can will cause unnecessary deaths, thus reducing his Leadership score. Just throw in some dangerous monster that a group of 1st level characters can't face, and you'll force him to come in the open to fight the monster himself. Heck, if he does, and survive, I'd give extra XP for interpretating a true leader.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-01, 08:30 PM
They're friggin' fanatic, so they aren't being seduced.

"Lord, this woman is attempting to seduce me."
"Really... she might be a threat. Kill her."
"Yes master... *kisses feet*"
Not quite like that, but that is essentially how devoted these people are...
Unless she uses magical effects.
"Lord, this woman is attempting to seduce me."
"Really... she might be a threat. Kill her."
"... uh? Sorry, was not paying attention" *day dreaming*

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 08:46 PM
The mere +1 on will saves doesn't help enough there :D.

What's with this "double leadership" stuff? Whaa?

And his cohort doesn't have bloody leadership, that was an example.

And yes, everyone will be a fanatic, it just takes time. Though not most NPC's. Really, I try to limit that to the standard PHB "helpful". And frankly, even if someone hates you (hostile), that's too friggin bad, because DC 50 diplomacy, bam. Helpful.

Curse your mind compelling effects...

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 08:49 PM
You can't use Diplomacy on someone twice. If he fluffs the roll to hit the minimum DC 50, they stick at Helpful. Full stop.

barawn
2007-02-01, 08:49 PM
Send in an advanced succubus in disguise, who wants his followers for an entirely seperate and altogether selfish and evil plot of her own. See how he deals then.

Or take advantage of the fact that he's got a town, plus followers. It makes him a visible target. Shapechangers, maybe, or a wizard who can fake his appearance well.

Intrigue and illusion. An enemy with that kind of power, people would use the power against him.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 08:53 PM
You can't use Diplomacy on someone twice. If he fluffs the roll to hit the minimum DC 50, they stick at Helpful. Full stop.

Aha! Thanks for that bit of info...

Next question, where the heck do you find that? Second question, how long does such a change last?

And lastly, what about aid another?

Aid another with bluff would be funny... "Yes, he tells the truth!" *Senses motive* "Ok, all you guys are lying, so... I bet he's lying too..."

Bluff, bluff, bluff the stupid gold dragon...

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 09:01 PM
You do know that Fanatic is a special, temporary state, right? It wears off in 1 + Cha days, so unless this guy's personally visiting everyone in the city from time to time to remind them of what a great guy he is, they'll soon become perfectly susceptible to outside persuasion. Oh, and people with high Sense Motives will register your followers as being under mental compulsion (really it's just that you're a skilled leader, but at epic check levels there's not much difference), which may make them mistrusting of you.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-01, 09:05 PM
What's with this "double leadership" stuff? Whaa?

And his cohort doesn't have bloody leadership, that was an example.

And yes, everyone will be a fanatic, it just takes time. Though not most NPC's. Really, I try to limit that to the standard PHB "helpful". And frankly, even if someone hates you (hostile), that's too friggin bad, because DC 50 diplomacy, bam. Helpful.

Lessee. He has 24 CHA (18+2+4(cloak)), level 10, 2 leadership feats, so 19 right there. Great renown, as he has been trumpeting his name throughout the lands. His town gets him a base of operations, and he counts as generous (gave 30% of his money to followers... heck, he has all of one magical item). So there's 24. If he took another leadership feat (practiced cohort, inspirational leadership), he gets a 25 again.
There.

And I love to interpret NPCs. "Ya know, yer have a point. I'll agree... for now... but ah still dont like ye."

Heck, the more charismatic characters of history always have someone that hates them. Some say that Superman is a natural leader, yet Lex Luthor hates him with all his forces. Okay, he's a villain, but these things can happen. Just remember that NPCs are controled by the DM. It's not fair to reduce the stuff he got legally, as long he doesn't abuse them. If he does, the side effects will be in-game.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 09:07 PM
If he's a 10th-level Aristocrat with all of one magical item, the local lord sends an assassin after him, fearing that he might be trying to build a powerbase. The assassin will scythe through the NPC followers, might have to take on the cohort (if it's a bodyguard) and will then find the Aristocrat to be very easy pickings.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 09:08 PM
Actually, I sorta knew that, seeing as it's limited to 6 days in this case anyway...
No, actually, I didn't know the specific period. Or at least, I didn't look it up closely.

Mostly however, I was asking about other cases, i.e. indifferent to helpful.

And actually, he is visiting every few weeks to remind them how great he is... Though if he can't continue to say how great he is, that leads to some issues, which will likely result in further buffing his diplomacy :D.

Do I really have to kill the poor guy? I could just pull the old "rocks fall, everyone dies" cliche, but really, the main thing isn't really "kill the PC's", it's "reduce the PC's to a reasonable power level", which can be done by nerfing PC's, or buffing encounters.

Of course, resources are hard to recover with leadership 0.o.

ACH! OK, sorry, two leadership feats refers to two leadership improvement feats from HoB, so he has extra followers and improved cohort (2x followers, and cohort can be 1 level lower than you. Both also give +1 to leadership score).

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 09:12 PM
Now you hit him with politics. Is he claiming to set himself up as their lord and if so why hasn't he pledged allegiance to the king, been ennobled etc.? If he's simply squatting on the land, the local lord will want to extract heavy dues from him. If the settlement is being built from scratch, the king will be interested and then there's horrendous land dues!
Then of course there's the obvious powerbase scenario. Having an army of fanatics in your own base is living flaunting nuclear weapons!

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 09:16 PM
True :D. Those can be interesting as plots or somesuch, I'll try getting around to scripting something like that :).

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 09:19 PM
Particularly as he is a 10th-level Aristocrat, he most certainly should be involved in politics. Then again, as stated before, if his people are prepared to die for him, let them do just that when he's in a lethal situation. That Leadership score will start plummeting.

(That's always the problem with one-trick ponies. You have nothing to attack except the one trick and then they're pretty much naked.)

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 09:22 PM
Plummeting hah. -1, he has 26. Pretty scary...

Yes, I caused the death of my followers. But really, I'm so great, it doesn't matter!

There indeed is a weakness. Which is what other players are for ;D.

True though, if I hit him where it hurts, he's screwed, and if I don't, he wins easily.

(unless I include failure, which might make it a tad more. In another level, it's irrelevant).

barawn
2007-02-01, 09:34 PM
Do I really have to kill the poor guy? I could just pull the old "rocks fall, everyone dies" cliche, but really, the main thing isn't really "kill the PC's", it's "reduce the PC's to a reasonable power level", which can be done by nerfing PC's, or buffing encounters.


I wouldn't kill him. Like I said, I'd just have fun turning his power against him. I mean, he's essentially holding an entire town together by his reputation alone - but his reputation can be taken by a rogue with a bunch of Disguise ranks and a scroll of disguise self.

It wouldn't even be that vindictive, since he could recover from it. Could be hilarious having him go through the countryside finding that someone's been using his reputation. "Hey, ain't you the guy that was caught with that pig?"

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 09:36 PM
Sounds like fun :).

I'll see what I can do :P.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 09:38 PM
If sheep and sex are good enough for the Welsh, they're good enough for smear campaigns! *g* (Disclaimer - I have lived in Wales and liked it.)

barawn
2007-02-01, 09:44 PM
If sheep and sex are good enough for the Welsh, they're good enough for smear campaigns! *g* (Disclaimer - I have lived in Wales and liked it.)

Yeah, that's it : smear campaign. PC unknowingly walks into a town, with the rest of his party. "Uh, hey, Bob? You ever been to this town before?" "No, why?"
"Cuz there's a pretty accurate representation of you on this poster that says you're wanted for.. um... unspeakable acts with farm animals." "Can't be me." "It's got your name, too. Plus it says you insulted the local magistrate's grandmother."

I wonder what the modifier is for a Diplomacy check on that. Gotta be pretty big.

Oh, there's DM gold right there.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 09:48 PM
Bluff: Filthy lies, all of it!

(-15 modifier)

Uh huh...

But... I'm not lying, why are you making me roll bluff?!

Person_Man
2007-02-01, 10:22 PM
Ban the Leadership Feat (which, in its text, specifically says that its optional). Make leadership (small L on purpose) about roleplaying. If he uses his social Skills deftly and pursues a plot that would involve him leading a bunch of people, then fine. If not, he shouldn't be able to get all these people because its built into some broken crunch.

Problem solved.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 10:24 PM
Ban the Leadership Feat (which, in its text, specifically says that its optional). Make leadership (small L on purpose) about roleplaying. If he uses his social Skills deftly and pursues a plot that would involve him leading a bunch of people, then fine. If not, he shouldn't be able to get all these people because its built into some broken crunch.

Problem solved.

I think the player may take issue with his entire build concept being banned late in the game.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 10:28 PM
Ok... then if I were trying to min-max, I'd just use CODZilla, as that character is totally useless with no leadership/socal situations...

Likely he wouldn't do anything like that ("The point is not to be incredibly powerful, it's to play your character"), but he'd definately switch characters somehow.

Reducing PC options, so that it conforms to "balance", isn't a great idea, IMO, except in extreme cases (No. No using manipulate form). It's not really fun, and the other options presented in this thread appeal significantly more.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-01, 10:40 PM
I limit my player's followers to purely NPC classes and ban the cohort from taking the leadership feat as well. Since I play primarily gestalt games, that makes them effectively worthless in combat by the time you get them, so you're better off just using experts for the various craft/perform/profession abilities, and maybe a handful of adepts.

The arrow volley, on the other hand, is a great tool when you have tons of martially inept followers. But there are ways to prevent them :)

Arbitrarity
2007-02-01, 10:45 PM
...Like killing the followers, scattering them, etc.

Since the player recently used the character in a war campaign, his followers are mostly martial, though some interesting things have occured since.

Recently, he has gotten less useful characters (for combat, anyway). A few 4'th level smiths, some aristocrats, a few bards, and so forth.

I agree with banning cohorts with leadership, especially after that thing I saw on the WoTC boards...

Jack Mann
2007-02-01, 10:56 PM
Seriously, if you're going to let a player take Leadership, remember that you get to build the cohort, not the player. You don't need to ban cohort leadership. You just don't give it to them.

Folie
2007-02-01, 11:20 PM
Wait, you mentioned that each follower has a wife and three kids, right? Is your PC courting their favor as well? If you decide to be evil, that's about 1,200 potential rebels right there.:smallamused:

Jack_Simth
2007-02-02, 12:01 AM
Particularly as he is a 10th-level Aristocrat, he most certainly should be involved in politics. Then again, as stated before, if his people are prepared to die for him, let them do just that when he's in a lethal situation. That Leadership score will start plummeting.
Except that, for followers, "caused the deaths of other followers" is a one-time penalty (unlike cohorts, which is explicitly called out as being cumulative).

Try this thing on the wizards boards...

"Sam, being 6th level, qualifies for the Leadership feat. He takes it.
Using the myriad of ways in the thread I linked above, it is possible for Sam to have a leadership score of 21 or higher. He does.
A Leadership score of 21 means that you have 6th level followers. Sam does. His 6th Level follower is named Bob.
Bob, being 6th level, qualifies for the Leadership feat. He takes it.
Using the myriad of ways in the thread I linked above, it is possible for Bob to have a leadership score of 21 or higher. He does.
A Leadership score of 21 means that you have 6th level followers. Bob does. His 6th Level follower is named Ted.
Ted, being 6th level, qualifies for the Leadership feat. He takes it."

Couple of problems with that....
The foremost of which being that followers are NPC's; the Player doesn't get to specify the build.



Actually, come to think of it, thrallherds need high INT, and his stats are somthing like 10, 15, 10, 12, 10, 18 base :/. And he wouldn't get all of the bonuses from being famous etc.
No. Psions need high Int. A Wilder-6 (needs Charisma) or Psychic Warrior-5 (needs Wisdom) can have Expanded Knoweledge(Mindlink) to qualify.

El Honcho
2007-02-02, 07:20 AM
How does he feed them all? Or arm them? Or where are the raw materials from for building the roads and houses. Try hit him with economy problems. A really bad harvest or a fire in town can ruin it all.

Vik
2007-02-02, 07:35 AM
Heck, a simple level 6 or 7 wizard will slaughter them. Protection from arrows, invisibility, fly, and fireball or other damage spells (which are usually poor choices, but in that case they're perfect), and you have a level 10 character who will hesitate to take with him followers of more than 4 levels less than him.

Quincunx
2007-02-02, 08:10 AM
Wait, you mentioned that each follower has a wife and three kids, right? Is your PC courting their favor as well? If you decide to be evil, that's about 1,200 potential rebels right there.:smallamused:

Re-enact Lysistrata? Oh, that is evil. I LIKE IT!

Arbitrarity
2007-02-02, 11:25 AM
With a few thousand NPC's, the backing of a major military-political house, and calling town meetings whenever he comes back (Yes, I am a great man *rolls*, K' that's 42 normally, +8 because they are from my house... Ah, they love me!)

Yes, but simply killing his followers is inelegant. Really, they're his only "resources", and he can't get more overnight. 2d4 months!?

Thus, I can temporarily corrupt them, and leave him with only a few, or do something else... here we go, got an e-mail:
Merl Renownèd


In the city, most houses have ample resources to pursue their agendas. Some houses attain these funds by dominating the markets, while others sell their protégés’ chef d’oeuvres for an arm and a leg. Others still turn to crime. But for House Merl’s military-political prospects, a single city (or even a dozen metropolises) couldn’t ever offer the funds needed to realize their many promises. For their needs, the elders of House Merl have hand-picked and trained a group of their finest to tap a potentially unlimited source: fame.
The Merl Renownèd travel the land, gathering as much treasure as they can find and making whatever successes they’ve had as public as possible. They hope thereby to gather unto themselves a following of such magnitude as to threaten that of kings and warlords. In time, these followers become as dedicated to their master’s cause as he himself, and would gladly die to further it.
This class is designed to incorporate the politics of war, the ambitions of the city, and the unorthodox tactic of exploiting the Leadership feat into the adventuring life.
Hit Dice: d6

Table 1-1: The Merl Renownèd


Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Great Renown, Bonus Feat
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Legendary Reputation
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 House Ambassador
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Bonus Feat
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Arm of the House
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Pride and Joy
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Bonus Feat
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Team Captain
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Bonus Feat
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Glory of the House
Requirements
To qualify to become a Merl Renownèd, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any non-chaotic.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Bluff 10 ranks, Diplomacy 10 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 5 ranks, Sense Motive 10 ranks.
Feats: Leadership, Negotiator.
Special: Leadership score of at least 10.
Special: Must be a patron of House Merl, and have performed a considerable amount of publicly acclaimed deeds or otherwise become a relatively well-known and well-liked public figure. Any patrons of House Merl with assets exploitable in the public’s favor are eligible.
Special: Must have at least two upper-class contacts.

Class Skills
The Merl Renownèd’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Perform (Cha), and Sense Motive (Cha).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Merl Renownèd prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Merl Renownèds gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Great Renown (Ex): Upon initiation into the class, the Merl Renownèd is acclaimed wherever the House has a presence. The character’s Leadership feat (p.106 DMG) is changed in the following ways.

Firstly, the character’s Leadership score is now equal to his character level + his Cha modifier + his Merl Renownèd level + any other modifiers that may apply. Because of the nature of the class, the character automatically gains the +2 modifier for great renown (because of the House’s efforts to announce his abduction into the class), and the +2 modifier for having a base of operations (House Merl provides the character with a place to stay and plan his next exploit between adventures).

Second, if the Merl Renownèd commits any of the acts described as giving negative Leadership score modifiers (see p. 106 DMG), the penalty is doubled. However, if at any time he has access to a crowd of at least 50 people that are neither his followers nor patrons of House Merl, he can attempt a Bluff check to deny any such actions (effectively reducing the penalty associated with them). The check can be attempted once per day per 50 people in the crowd in question. For every 2 points the check beats a DC of 10 + the character’s class levels, the total penalty to his Leadership score is lessened by 1. The character cannot take 10 on this check through any means. For one-time occurrences (such as killing followers) the penalty is permanently removed (or at least until the action is committed again). For passive factors (such as a reputation of being cruel, or a cohort of different alignment), the penalty is only removed until the factor in question is witnessed anew by at least 5 people of moderate reputation (DM’s discretion). If this occurs, the penalty is one times more than usual (this effect stacks for each time it is discovered that the character lies about the same factor). If the factor is removed before being discovered, the penalty is permanently removed and the penalty associated with it returns to only double the norm after a month.

Additionally, any public action taken by the character has double consequence. Whenever he commits any act that would gain him public recognition, the acclaim is double standard (this includes RP awards; see HoB). Also, if the character performs any evil or chaotic deed in a civilized setting, he garners twice as much negative attention as he normally would from the public (as well as from the local authorities, if any).

Bonus Feats: The Merl Renownèd is always learning new tricks to improve his public admiration. At 1st, 4th, 7th, and 9th level, he gains a bonus feat from among the following: Any Leader Feats (see HoB), Extra Contacts, Natural Leader, or Skill Focus (Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate). The character must still meet the prerequisites for these feats.

Legendary Reputation (Ex): The character continues to grow in fame. His bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks for flaunting his House’s name is doubled, for a total of +4 against anyone familiar with the House, or +8 against a patron or affiliate of the House. When dealing with individuals unfriendly towards the house, the penalty to such checks is tripled (to a total of -6). The character can no longer disguise his identity through any mundane means, and takes a -10 on any such attempts. He can no longer Bluff to hide his affiliation with House Merl; an attempt to do so causes him to lose patronage and become an ex-Merl Renownèd (see below).

House Ambassador (Ex): The character is assigned the title of Ambassador of Merl. In addition, due to his numerous dealings with people of various sorts, as well as training from the highest ranking diplomats affiliated with the House, the character has developed a better insight into the art of negotiation. He can make a Diplomacy check against any intelligent creature(s) with a Wisdom score of at least 4 less than the character’s Charisma score as a full-round action, without incurring the normal -10 penalty. If any of the creatures’ Wisdom scores are too high, the check fails to influence their mood at all. At 6th level, the character can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action against any creatures that can see or hear him clearly.

Arm of the House (Ex): The character’s impressive position within House Merl has become common knowledge throughout the land. As such, he can insinuate a subtle Intimidate check against a creature he is talking to. Once per day per class level, plus one additional time per day per point of Charisma bonus the character has (if any), the character can attempt an Intimidate check as a free action against any creature within 30 ft. that can hear or see him clearly. Observers must make a DC 25 + character’s Charisma modifier Sense Motive check to notice the character’s aggressive motif. All the character’s normal bonuses to Intimidate checks apply. Higher ranking Merl nobles are immune to this effect.

Pride and Joy (Ex): The character has proven himself to be one of House Merl’s most valued members. They have introduced him to the secret techniques kept jealously by Merl diplomats for generations. The character can take 10 on any of the following checks, even while being threatened or distracted: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive.

Team Captain (Ex): The character’s bond with his followers has developed into a near supernatural connection. None of his allies within 100ft. of him can be caught flat-footed by an enemy that any one of them is aware of. Also, his allies can use the Aid Another action to provide each other a double bonus (for a total bonus of +4), as long as they are within 100 ft. of the character.

Glory of the House (Ex): The character has become an invaluable asset for House Merl. He gains the honorable title of Lord-Ambassador of Merl. His house-derived bonuses and penalties are doubled further (for a total of +8 on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks against anyone familiar with House Merl, +16 on those checks against a House patron or affiliate, and -12 on those checks against anyone that doesn’t like the House; impossible to hide identity through mundane means, and a -20 on attempts through any means). The character has access to any of the House’s resources, so long as he makes a DC 30 Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check to persuade his superiors of their relevance to his mission (the DC may vary depending on the resource at hand; DM’s discretion)
Additionally, the character gains a second cohort. This cohort cannot be higher level than the character’s level minus two, and must be a member of House Merl that the character is training as a Merl Renownèd. If this cohort dies through negligence on the character’s part (for game purposes, if it is killed in an encounter of CR equal to or less than the character’s level), he loses the House’s patronage (see ex-Merl Renownèds below) once the House learns of the news (usually after 24 hours; DM’s discretion).

Ex-Merl Renownèds
If a Merl Renownèd gains enough negative public attention or otherwise taints his apparent value in the eyes of House Merl, he loses House patronage (see p. 77 of Cityscape), and becomes an ex-Merl Renownèd. He loses all Leadership- and class-derived abilities until he either Bluff checks his record clean (treat the penalty as equal to twice his effective Leadership score), or performs an act of great enough public acclaim that he gains the House’s pardon (DM’s discretion).

Telok
2007-02-02, 12:24 PM
If you want to put the fear of the GM into this guy and point out a weakness in his strategy just drop a vampire on him. Start with a nice charismatic sorcerer before applying the vampire bits. Charm Person and a couple other manipulation spells ought to do fine.

Simply put, the vampire decides to inhabit this nice safe town. Drives his cart with a dug up grave and coffin hidden in it into town one rainy evening, Dominates some kid, and goes home with him. After Dominating the whole family Dad gets "sick", the follower cleric/healer walks in and "catches" whatever it is. The vampire starts with the lowest level people (commoners) and proceeds to the more interesting people (adepts/casters). Over the next two weeks a smart vampire can start converting families into spawn. Through abuse of the Dominate ability you can probably keep this decently quiet untill you have about 50 spawn plus their families (one spawn per family to keep them in line).

Depending on how often the character visits his town he may only get one or two chances to notice that a few of his people are missing or "under the weather" during the day. Once he does notice the vampire can, and probably will, simply go to earth in some basement while ordering his minions to perform a mass suicide attack. Depending on how you feel you can make up to ten spawn make Dominate attacks on player characters as long as they aren't in direct melee.

Smart vampires are dangerous.

barawn
2007-02-02, 12:25 PM
For passive factors (such as a reputation of being cruel, or a cohort of different alignment), the penalty is only removed until the factor in question is witnessed anew by at least 5 people of moderate reputation (DM’s discretion). If this occurs, the penalty is one times more than usual (this effect stacks for each time it is discovered that the character lies about the same factor). If the factor is removed before being discovered, the penalty is permanently removed and the penalty associated with it returns to only double the norm after a month.

Yup. Smear campaign is the way to go.

"I'm telling you, I wasn't the one with the sheep. I am not that kind of man. You know me."
"Well... Okay, Bob, I thought it was a little strange. Maybe they mistook someone else for you."
(bluff check, penalty removed)
(one day passes)
"Hi there, townsfolk!"
"Hey! It's Bob, the sheeplover!"
"What!? I thought we got that cleared up!"
"Yeah, nice try. The local town bard showed you in Farmer Bill's barn last night with his scryin' mirror. The whole town saw it. And it was definitely you. Same clothes you had on yesterday! You were even saying 'Ha ha, those foolish villagers, they'll believe anything I tell them.' You fooled us once, Bob..."

I'm telling you, DM gold, all the way. Just the idea of a powerful aristocrat having to hide himself to find the offending rogue to clear his name. That's hilarious.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-02, 12:28 PM
"The character can no longer disguise his identity through any mundane means, and takes a -10 on any such attempts."

That could be an issue with hiding ;)

Will do though, but it'll take a while.

Gamebird
2007-02-02, 12:47 PM
Well... I've read the Leadership section several times in the last few months and my recollection was that followers won't follow you into adventurer-style combat. An organized military expedition, or to protect their homes, sure. But not to loot dungeons or run into really tough stuff, like CR-appropriate for the PC.

I have a lot of PCs with Leadership and only their cohort will go into battle with them.

Note also that followers do NOT get WBL guideline "stuff". That's reserved for adventurer-class NPCs. Don't forget that things like land, houses and livestock all cost money, so even if you do give them WBL gp, they've likely spent it on things other than weapons and armor.

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-02, 01:30 PM
If he enjoys this style of play, and you enjoy this style of play, why take it away? What you need to do is tailor your challenges to him (as opposed to tailoring him to your challenges, which is what nerfing him would do). In that vein: he owns a town. He hasn't been granted it by the king or anything, he just decided he felt like ruling, correct? Most of his followers are fanatically loyal to him, as well as being more powerful fighters than some of the king's knights, let alone the rest of the king's army.

What does the king think of all this?
He probably isn't impressed by House Merl; in fact, your PC's very Renownéd-ness may lead him to believe that the entire house of Merl is rebelling against him (I would make him immune to Merl's reputation, as he deals with aristocratic Houses all the time).
Perhaps the House of Merl is not pleased by this turn of events; if they somehow fail their Diplomacy check against the king, they might disown your player as a last-ditch effort.
Perhaps Merl sends assassins after this rebellious upstart, if the king thinks Merl is feigning its disapproval.
Perhaps the king sends assassins after this rebellious upstart (this hook probably won't work too well with the one above).
Perhaps the king sends armies after this rebellious upstart.
(Whoa; I just noticed your PrC's fluff: "as to threaten that of kings and warlords!")

What do neighboring governments think of all this?
If the your country's king hasn't yet disowned your player, perhaps they might think the king is training an army to attack them (time for a preemptive counterattack). If your king has disowned your player, perhaps they see this whole fracas as a sign of weakness (Gildor is splintering! Now is the time to strike!)
Perhaps your king might have to swallow his pride and recruit your player's town to fight the other guys' armies?

Gamebird
2007-02-02, 02:32 PM
There's another factor to consider: Someone owned the land the "town" is on before they moved in. Who was it? Are they happy about being displaced? Are they bent on revenge? Where did these followers come from? Did they desert their former employers/feudal lords/military posts to follow this charismatic fellow?

How closer are other towns? Are they happy about this new place? Are they envious?

How does a PC know, in game, who is a follower and who is not? Let's say the PC levels up and gains 50 new followers. 100 new people move into town and pledge their loyalty to the PC. How does he know which ones are loyal and which aren't? Does it matter? (When it comes to a matter of who you hire as an accountant, I'll bet it does!)

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-02, 02:44 PM
I honestly don't see the problem here. Arbitrarity, you're letting your player bend the rules some a lot, thus magnifying the already-kinda-silly power of the Leadership feat and Diplomacy to a whole new level, but you seem to like where it's gone. Do you want suggestions on how to de-power your player or not? If so, the general advice here of "eliminate a lot of followers" is sound, followed by a hit him when he's weak. If not...then this is an amusing campaign you've got going.

I'd go for not, personally, since he seems to have built a one-trick-pony on a highly original trick. He'd probably just change characters if you did things like enforcing the non-Epic Leadership and Diplomacy rules, and successfully killing his followers basically makes him useless. Of course, something like the Vampire cabal that he and his party-mates could stop sounds like a fun little quest.

Gamebird
2007-02-02, 02:56 PM
Yeah. I'm not having a big problem with Leadership in my games, other than the issue of everyone playing two characters (main PC and cohort) and thus skewing the toughness of battles. The followers are settlers on their new lands, claimed from battles with a small tribe of humanoids.

PirateMonk
2007-02-02, 03:37 PM
Gildor is splintering! Now is the time to strike!

Gildor? Is that the name of some other fantasy kingdom, did you just make it up, or are you referring to a certain really old fantasy TBS?

Seffbasilisk
2007-02-02, 04:02 PM
I say go with the succubus route, only instead of targeting the commoners, target HIM. And instead of draining him dry, instead make him use his followers and cohorts as a cudgel of the demons. Strike out at a passing band of paladins, raze certain temples, etc.

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-02, 08:17 PM
Eh, I made it up. Did I accidentally reference something? If so, I'm always interested in obscure geek lore; what is it?

swordmaster2000
2007-02-02, 11:24 PM
I have an idea. How about the enemies come to him but he dosent know it. Like the Huns. They ride up at 4 am on the side of thier horses all you see is horse then they pop up shoot in some flaming arrows chaos insues in come the calvary slashing anything that moves within minutes they are gone and the foot saoldiers come in to loot and clean up the mess. See how he handles it.


(yes the Huns actually did this)

Foeofthelance
2007-02-03, 01:57 PM
Just up the scale of battle. This is doesn't sound as bad as some people think. So what if he has three hundred+ followers? As stated originally, he hasn't profited from them,and any money he has taken from them has been put into building a town for them. I was once part of an entire party that did this. DM allowed us full creative license, which lead to three people with dedicated leadership chains, and one with Undead Leadership. I think the average size of each group was in the 600+ range, and that was before we started adding Draconic cohort into it (we used the HD+LA method for determining score. Please don't rehash the debate about that) which meant we were running around with not just a fleet, but a rather sizable armada.

So what did the DM do? Rocks fall and everyone died? Sabotage the PCs so that they lost their followers? Nah, none of that. We lost plenty of followers, but they died in combats we were also engaged in, so no penalty. Instead he looked everything over, and went, 'Lo, thou hast accumulated many followers, and much loot from the aforementioned. Thou no longer beist level 12 in my opinion, but level 15 instead. Such is the word of your lord, the DM.'

Didn't turn out too bad. We had to invest a bit more in healing items, as we were short the hitpoints. But lack of level appropriate spells was made up by the ability to volley fire Magic Missile or crossbow bolts. Combat didn't slow down too much, as followers chained to their Leader's initiative. And it did allow for biggger targets to be sent against us, as we could engage battles upon battles. We had a fleet, so we faced other fleets. We had an army, so we battled through other armies.

oriong
2007-02-03, 02:27 PM
Yeah, this guy sounds like he's gotten a lot of abilities through a custom Prestige class (bad idea) and tons of skill focus in one area, which sums up to meaning almost nothing at all.

All those followers can't do squat to many CR 10 creatures except die horribly at them, and if you actually increased the challenge rating to compensate for the extra NPCs at his back it just means that they die even more horribly.

At best all he's gained is large amounts of low-level NPCs who are therefore capable of helping him deal with large amounts of low-level NPCs, which he probably could have handled all by himself if it weren't for the fact that he spent all of his cash on his followers (meaning he has horrible magic items) and took this custom Prestige Class (which hopefully cut into his combat or spellcasting advancement).

So....where is the problem?

This guy is frankly pretty inneffective.

PirateMonk
2007-02-03, 07:36 PM
Eh, I made it up. Did I accidentally reference something? If so, I'm always interested in obscure geek lore; what is it?

Warlords III, as in Lord Gildus of the treacherous Gildines of Gildor. They betray the protagonists, the Sirian Knights, to Lord Bane, a sort of uber-liche.

HealthKit
2007-02-03, 08:38 PM
Well if it's getting in the way of normal gameplay, fix it with, say, a plague that can't be treated with normal means that descends upon the town.
The only treatment requires a long quest of sorts- regiments of a cure are rare and require traveling long distances. By the time this player and the rest of his party get back most of the townsfolk have died and the survivors have lost faith in the leader even after finding the cure. Maybe the town was attacked while he was away, resulting in even more aversion. From then on his poor reputation precedes him wherever he goes. That should kick his "Leadership Score" down a few notches. Maybe you should ignore the normal rules of the Leadership feat for a while and just designate his score yourself, whatever you think is fair and won't get in the way of the game.
Remember, you're the DM, not him.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-04, 12:57 AM
If you want to put the fear of the GM into this guy and point out a weakness in his strategy just drop a vampire on him. Start with a nice charismatic sorcerer before applying the vampire bits. Charm Person and a couple other manipulation spells ought to do fine.

Simply put, the vampire decides to inhabit this nice safe town. Drives his cart with a dug up grave and coffin hidden in it into town one rainy evening, Dominates some kid, and goes home with him. After Dominating the whole family Dad gets "sick", the follower cleric/healer walks in and "catches" whatever it is. The vampire starts with the lowest level people (commoners) and proceeds to the more interesting people (adepts/casters). Over the next two weeks a smart vampire can start converting families into spawn. Through abuse of the Dominate ability you can probably keep this decently quiet untill you have about 50 spawn plus their families (one spawn per family to keep them in line).

Depending on how often the character visits his town he may only get one or two chances to notice that a few of his people are missing or "under the weather" during the day. Once he does notice the vampire can, and probably will, simply go to earth in some basement while ordering his minions to perform a mass suicide attack. Depending on how you feel you can make up to ten spawn make Dominate attacks on player characters as long as they aren't in direct melee.

Smart vampires are dangerous.

Vampires only get up to 2 * HD spawn. He'll have to start targetting 5th-6th-level characters to get more than that (ie bring them back as Vampires under his control), and even 25 Leadership nets you only four followers that powerful. Also, he'll have to have good planning to get them to "fit" perfectly in his control: Uncontrolled spawn blows his whole conspiracy out of the water. Still a neat idea, though.

Elliot Kane
2007-02-04, 01:17 AM
Sounds like a good player - and a good game - to me :)

I think I'd hit him with a few challenges that are not combat related. If he wants to be a leader, great - let's see how well he does at dealing with famines, requests for aid from other nobles/leaders (Especially if he has two implacable enemies both requesting aid) or requests for shelter from outcast individuals or groups.

What if the next orcs arrive under flag of truce because they want to trade or they are a peaceful tribe seeking sanctuary on his lands from those who persecute them?

If he's that good a diplomat. he might be called on to negotiate a peace between two warring nobles, too. Don't let him roll dice - make him come up with his own solutions. The nobles will obviously listen to him because of his diplomatic skills, but after that it's down to him to find the best way.

There are many challenges you can throw at a leader/diplomat that have no combat involved :)

And that's without his fanatical followers deciding to start a war with anyone they think has insulted their lord when he isn't around to restrain them... The problem with fanatics, eh? :D

Jack_Simth
2007-02-04, 02:03 AM
The problem with a building sessions around a single build... is that the other players have a slight habit of getting bored.

Legoman
2007-02-04, 08:49 AM
Failing the smear campaign, just send a bunch of paladins after him for being a cult leader.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-04, 03:53 PM
Or set up a dragon encounter in the near future. It'll make the saves against the arrows quite easily, then use a few well-placed breath weapons to completely erase his precious army.

Or maybe a forest that's been set up with booby traps. A small band of higher level players might be able to make it through unharmed, but a large army of dimwits? Heheheh...

Fhaolan
2007-02-04, 04:28 PM
Okay, I've seen similar situations before. This character is optimized for one style of play to the exclusion of any other, much like the vaunted 'Trip fighter' build. The difficulty is not the fact that the character is uber-powerful, but the fact that he's a one-trick pony. He has masses of followers. Anything capable of defeating his followers will simply wipe them out, and him. Nominally, this is what the rest of the party is for.

However, you now enter into a situation where the character is either completely useless and is sitting around doing nothing while the rest of the party handles the issue, or is overwhelming and the rest of the party sits around doing nothing. Some people actually like playing this kind of game, but most will get bored with it fairly quickly.

You have the following options, as I see it:

1) Have the player retire the character. The question isn't that the player isn't having fun, he apparantly is, and it sounds like you are too. But are the other players still having fun? If there are more players than just you two, then the other players need to have fun as well. Otherwise, they will stop showing up and you two can play your own game all by yourselves. Which is, in effect, what it sounds like you are already doing.

2) Throw situations at the character that forces him to develop other means of dealing with stuff. For example: Temporarily derive him of followers by having an adventure which takes him on a sea voyage. He can only take a small number of followers because there simply isn't enough room on the boat, or if he takes too many that doesn't leave enough people behind to take care of the women, children, crops, etc.

3) Threaten his control over the followers. Religion is a good one here, although there are other options. He may have fanatical followers, but when his charisma is stacked up against the power of a Church, things get a bit dicey. The Church doesn't even have to be 'evil'. It just may be that it differs from him in what it considers 'good' enough that the Church believes him to be misguided. And none of his followers are willing to go up against a God. (Not really, but 95% of commoner-types aren't going to differentiate between a God and a Church.)

4) Threaten the followers themselves. This doesn't work very well normally if the players are doing a 'mechanical' game. The way the D&D Leadership rules work currently, the 'sent followers to their death' penalty is a one-time non-stacking penalty. It's just not as nasty as it really should be. So, the 'leader' will treat the followers like disposable units, and this is not a behaviour you want to encourage. Before you threaten the followers, you need to build them up as people. Individuals. People that the leader actually cares about, so that he *doesn't* want to just send them to their deaths needlessly. This is a difficult thing to pull off, depending on your playing style. And from your posts, I infer that your playing style will make this very difficult indeed.

barawn
2007-02-04, 04:48 PM
The problem with a building sessions around a single build... is that the other players have a slight habit of getting bored.

If the other players in the game get bored about a session built around one of the players' characters constantly being framed for unnatural acts with a farm animal, they're not worth playing with.

Now, the player being framed might have problems convincing the other players it's serious, and they shouldn't be laughing so hard... but, hey. :smallwink:

LotharBot
2007-02-04, 04:49 PM
There are several different approaches you can try:

1) Kill or drive away the followers (via plague, vampire, ravaging hordes, the "farmer bob's pig" trick, etc.) I don't much like this approach, because it makes the entire character build pointless, and it sounds like he's enjoying the role-playing. It's also a lame way to fix your mistake -- like a DM giving you a cool item and then destroying it the next playsession, rather than coming up with a way to make the item useful without being overpowered.

2) Set up army-vs-army encounters. If he can have 50 archers along, so can the other guys.

3) Create non-combat situations... rival factions vying for his help, famines, taxes, etc. that he needs to solve to protect his town. This makes him actually use his town and his diplomacy skills in a sensible way. This might annoy the other players if you do it more than one playsession, and may or may not be a long-term fix -- if he's solved the issue du jour, next playsession, he still has his own town. But this can provide a useful plot hook once in a while, and could fix the problem if used in conjuction with #4.

4) Stop allowing him to take so many characters into battle. You can either make the battles dangerous to low-level characters (casters with fireball, unholy blight, etc. or environmental hazards like exteme heat/cold) or just make it very difficult to get more than your party plus his cohort to the quest area (require a teleport or fly spell, use a long rope bridge that can't support everyone's weight at once, have the party summoned by an interplanar creature, or set up an adventure that requires more sneaking than you can manage with 50 archers along for the ride.)

My preference would be mostly solution #4, with a tiny bit of the other things thrown in. Let him have his town, let him enjoy his town, use his town as a plot hook on occasion, but make his town into "color" rather than adventuring-combat support. (You may also have to make this clear with him out of game -- let him know the town is cool, but bringing his followers into combat is overly complicating the game and making the other players feel useless.)

Arbitrarity
2007-02-04, 09:29 PM
1) Have the player retire the character. The question isn't that the player isn't having fun, he apparantly is, and it sounds like you are too. But are the other players still having fun? If there are more players than just you two, then the other players need to have fun as well. Otherwise, they will stop showing up and you two can play your own game all by yourselves. Which is, in effect, what it sounds like you are already doing.


We did that, one game :D.

We couldn't find anyone else so we did playtesting :smallbiggrin:.

He's mostly retiring the character for now, so not too much trouble.

Though now he's playing a dragon :smalleek:

PnP Fan
2007-02-06, 02:21 AM
Like the ideas about a smear campaign, nothing like an army of Bards to accomplish that mission. :-)

Seriously though, without bothering with crunchiness, most of my games (as DM and Player) just outlaw this feat, if for no other reason than the sheer potential for book keeping nightmares. Plus, all to often the adventurer who has the leadership feat effectively turns into an NPC leader type. He sends out his NPC's to take care of things the way NPC leaders hire the PC's. Not particularly heroic, and kinda dull IMO. But if you guys are enjoying it, have at it. To challenge that kind of character you either have to send hordes against him of weaker monsters, that aren't necessarily a threat to the PC's but are dangerous enough to be a threat to his "resources", only instead of hp, it's his NPC's. I'm not saying that you have to gimp him every time he goes on an adventure, but he should gain a healthy respect for the limited resources he has. After all, hp can be healed fairly quickly, repopulating his NPC pool could take awhile. Right now he's in his "safe zone" he thinks he can't be touched.
Also, as a DM, I generally don't let players write their own PrC's solo. That's like handing someone else a pistol and telling them to shoot you. The PrC sounds like it's your biggest balance issue. In the future, you might consider doing a "20 level build" for the most efficient way to get into a Player designed PrC, and look at damage ratings, saving throws, etc. . . to see how they compare with characters of equal level. It's a lot of paperwork, but it'll let you see the potential for cheese coming out of the class. Then you can nerf it a little bit, or approve it, or whatever.

Grendita
2007-02-06, 06:46 AM
Though now he's playing a dragon :smalleek:

As a Fellow DM I have a plethora of sayings that help with such a situation if a Players character concept bothers me, I'll share a few.

"No"
"Hell No"
"What part of No don't you understand?"

Remember as a DM you CAN say no to ridiculous concepts. If you don't want him playing a Dragon then don't let him.

As for Leadership, most of the players I have come across are uninterested in it. So far it has only seen use for NPC's, and only really to so the resources that are dedicated to a certain NPC and aren't only working with him for mutual gain.

HealthKit
2007-02-06, 10:58 AM
Though now he's playing a dragon :smalleek:

...


...


WHY?!? :smallconfused:

is he that much of a munchkin or something?

Arbitrarity
2007-02-06, 04:08 PM
Dragon... munchkin?

The words don't mix well. It's a monstrous campaign, and the LA would seem to sting.

Anyway, you can actually deal with a dragon. It's only a young one :/.

Not so with 6 mobs of humans. "We wrestle the purple worm to the ground. The other hack it to pieces."
"Roll grapple"
"62"
"What. The. Hell!?!"

oriong
2007-02-06, 04:33 PM
You do realize that the purple worm would still slaughter them don't you?

Grappling it just means it can't move from that square and that it loses it's dex bonus to AC. It never had a Dex bonus to AC so a bunch of 1st level attackers would still need just as high a roll to hit it, and the purple worm can still attack (it's just at -4, it'll still punch through any of it's attackers easily).

So I fail to see how grappling it provides any advantage at all?

In fact, that grapple attempt would probably be doomed to failure from the start. Only 8 people can attempt to grapple the purple worm at once, legally, and even if you used 'aid another' rules you can only do that if you're adjacent to the purple worm.

That's 20 people maximum threatening the worm, at most they'd give +40.

At absolute most you'd manage 48 people if some of them had longspears or other reach weapons, and that's only if they all manage to hit DC 10 (their attack bonus is +3 at best so that's only 35% of the time). So 35% of the aiders are useless. and -2 (one for the person who has to 'pretend' to grapple and die instantly from the purple worm's attack of opportunity, and one for the grappler). That's 29 people who can aid sucessfully on average, giving a +58 bonus to the grapple roll, versus the purple worm's +24.

That looks impressive...until you realize that these people will have to use Aid Another every round or else the worm would just break free making the whole thing pointless. And since they've completely surrounded the worm, there's no room for anyone else to attack!

You could fire arrows but the archer's would still be attacking the womr's full AC except now they're at -4 to hit because they're firing into melee, what do you think the odds are of 1st level archers with a penalty actually hitting AC 19? They're not very good.

Meanwhile the purple worm is slaughtering everyone just as effectively as it was before. In fact, every round a new person will have to grapple because it'll get killed instantly on the worm's turn.

LotharBot
2007-02-06, 04:59 PM
Only 8 people can attempt to grapple the purple worm at once....since they've completely surrounded the worm, there's no room for anyone else to attack!

Not so. There's actually a "mob" mechanic in the back of the Shackled City campaign. I don't think I can legally post it here, but suffice it to say, it allows for the "mob" as a whole to grapple things (with a modifier in the +50 range IIRC) and to do bludgeoning damage to anything in its squares (similar to swarm damage.) They provide a sample "riot" (mob of humans) and a "stampede" (mob of horses).

I think the mechanic is somewhat flawed, but the way it's drawn up, you could actually grapple a purple worm with a mob of humans and pummel it. With several mobs, one could tackle it and the others could smack it with swords.

elliott20
2007-02-06, 05:00 PM
hmm... so basically you have a guy who created his own town out of nothing. True, he bended the rules quite a bit to get there, but it's not something you can't deal with.

1. economics: how will he manage the economy? or is he doing it at all? peasants don't just manage their money themselves. the money that they have are probably going to be used on their own things like housing, clothes, tools to make a living, etc. Any money he wants to use for building his kingdom will either have to be taxed or comes out of his own pocket.

2. famine: if there was a bad harvest, people starve, and the economy suffers. Sure, he can make sure the starving people are going to be happy for a while with just diplomacy checks. But considering the conditions these peasants are suffering through, I think a cumulative modifier is in order until he fixes the problem.

3. political: who owns the land prior to him? Did he legally inherit this land from someone or did he just annex the land and settled on it? I'm fairly certain that the neighboring powers that be are going to accountable for this.

4. follower in-fighting: what, just because they all like the guy doesn't mean they won't have issues with the other followers!

5. political continued: if the neighboring kings don't like what he's doing, (and I don't care how high his diplomacy check is, there is a limit to much you can reasonably squeeze out of a person for favors) I can guarantee you he will start seeing assassins and armies knocking on his front gate.

no diplomacy won't save him if he doesn't get a chance to even leak a word out.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-02-06, 05:05 PM
The scary thing to do with leadership is to be an Illithid Savant, suck the Divine Rank 0 brain out of an infernal, keep your followers (worshippers) safe on a Demiplane, and compile divine ranks.