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ericgrau
2014-03-08, 03:38 PM
Theurges without Prestiges
I like multiclassing, ACFs, feats and so forth much more than prestiges. But it falls apart when you try to multiclass casters. So I thought of a simple system where you can multiclass freely without shafting yourself:

Full caster classes may be gestalted with all other classes, even eachother. But before you may do this you must have at least 7 levels which are not gestalted, and at least 3 of those 7 may not be the same full caster class. If the 2nd non-gestalted class is not a full caster or if it is a matching type (arcane, divine or psionic), you only need 2 non-gestalted non-full caster levels. Basically the same as the theurge and eldritch knight requirements, plus 1 more level because you get class features from both classes.

For higher optimization gaming groups instead of 7&3 levels, reduce to 6&3, 5&2, 4&2, 3&1 or 2&1. If the 2nd class is not a full caster or if it's the same type of caster, instead reduce to 6&2, 5&1, 4&1, 3&1 or 2&1.

You may retroactively gestalt levels at the rate of one per level up, within the same restrictions. So a wizard 9 / cleric 3 may level up and become a wizard 10 / cleric 3 // cleric 2, for a total of 5 cleric levels.

You may even tristalt as long as all possible pairs of the 3 classes meet the gestalt requirements. So if you have 3 classes ABC, the levels for AB, AC and BC must each meet the above gestalt requirements before you may tristalt.

Divine casters and non-full-casters may not be gestalted with this system. The reason is complicated, but if your group has routinely built Codzilla uberchargers then you may ignore this restriction.

Jormengand
2014-03-08, 05:40 PM
May I ask why you are buffing the T1 and T2 classes while leaving the classes who need help alone?

Eurus
2014-03-08, 07:42 PM
That... is pretty odd, no offense. If you want spellcasters to be able to have versatility without sacrifice and have no problem with a full spellcaster who can branch into another class's spell list without penalty, why would you deprive noncasters of that same opportunity to do more than one thing well out of fear of them scrounging up some extra damage?

ericgrau
2014-03-08, 08:29 PM
It is a bit clunky the more I think about it. Probably more clunky than prestiges. I wonder if there's a simpler way to do this. It's not supposed to be much different from mystic theurge or eldritch knight though.

Eurus
2014-03-08, 08:50 PM
It is a bit clunky the more I think about it. Probably more clunky than prestiges. I wonder if there's a simpler way to do this. It's not supposed to be much different from mystic theurge or eldritch knight though.

What issue with prestige classes are you trying to solve? Are you trying to eliminate the awkwardness of playing such a character from level 1, going through the whole messy process of trying to play a Wizard 3/Cleric 2 alongside everyone else's level 5 characters? Are you trying to figure out a way to make a theurge that doesn't fall behind a normal single-class caster at all? Or do you just generally dislike prestige classes and want to make something that functions identically but isn't one?

I'm not trying to imply that any of these are inherently bad causes, they just all require a different approach.

Jormengand
2014-03-08, 08:53 PM
You could make the Theurge a base class instead, and they get arcane and divine spellcasting, but not as good as normal. Just an idea.

Resasi
2014-03-08, 09:09 PM
This may be of some inspiration. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210452)

While it doesn't solve any of the problems inherent to spells in general, it does look like a good way at giving access to two spell lists without breaking anything more than usual.

ericgrau
2014-03-08, 09:09 PM
What issue with prestige classes are you trying to solve? Are you trying to eliminate the awkwardness of playing such a character from level 1, going through the whole messy process of trying to play a Wizard 3/Cleric 2 alongside everyone else's level 5 characters? Are you trying to figure out a way to make a theurge that doesn't fall behind a normal single-class caster at all? Or do you just generally dislike prestige classes and want to make something that functions identically but isn't one?

I'm not trying to imply that any of these are inherently bad causes, they just all require a different approach.

Probably closest to generally dislike prestige classes, though not always. But also I think theurges are something basic enough that perhaps it should be done without them. Like regular paladin vs. prestige paladin. Actually all the other goals are nice too. Except as with the prestige class the casting should be behind a single classed character. How much behind I think could vary by gaming group.

I'm starting to think that maybe a dual partial progression base class could do it, that can stand alone or stack with the single class caster levels as desired. Something like 2/3 casting in any 2 full caster classes, poor BAB, poor HD, poor skills and good will save. Not sure what to do for the class features though while still keeping it simple. I do like the runescribe too.

The end goal would be to acheive theurging and eldritch knighting with simple multiclassing of existing classes. Which currently is weak. I may shelve the idea for now.

Vadskye
2014-03-09, 06:39 PM
Rise uses this mechanic to remove the need for theurge prestige classes:


Characters with magical ability gain a special benefit when multiclassing. For every two levels that a character has in nonmagical classes, the character increases his caster level, spells per day, and spells known as if he had gained a level in one of his magical classes. If the character has multiple magical classes, he chooses a single class to receive this benefit each time it is gained. However, the character can only count a number of levels in nonmagical classes equal to the number of levels he has in his chosen magical class for the purpose of this benefit.

For example, Gish, a 2nd level fighter / 4th level wizard, would have a wizard magic level of 5. If he gained two more fighter levels, his wizard magic level would increase to 6. Gaining two additional fighter levels, making him a 6th level fighter / 4th level wizard, would not increase his magic level.

This doesn't actually buff the T1/T2 classes; they are still at their most powerful when you don't drop caster levels. Mostly, this just makes multiclassing casters simple. It means being a 50-50 fighter/wizard is no longer an egregiously stupid idea, merely unoptimized.

ericgrau
2014-03-09, 07:48 PM
So 15 BAB and CL 15th vs. an eldritch knight's/abjurant champion's 17 BAB and CL 18. Plus it gets something like 9-10 more feats than the EK/AC, or other class features. That's not a bad start. At level 10 it's 7 BAB / CL 7 vs. an EK's 7 BAB and CL 8, plus another feat or class features. Looks even better. And better yet at the painful levels 1-5 of course.

I think I'll use that plus non-casters only add 1/4 caster level to divine casters to avoid codzilla issues in low optimization groups. Then we have 17 BAB and CL 12th for basically 2/3rd casting on something that can melee very well. And no I don't consider anything short of quickened divine power an issue in low op, and even then you don't get feats/class-features, only NPC warrior class abilities.

Thanks. That's so simple that I can't believe I missed it, and I like it a lot.

Eurus
2014-03-09, 08:09 PM
What about modeling it as a set of alternate class features? That might be the easiest way to do the eldritch knight style thing. A sorcerer/wizard can boost their hit die and BAB, maybe pick up a weapon proficiency or the ability to wear light armor without spell failure, in exchange for banning an extra school or dropping spells known?

A theurge ACF would be interesting too, but hard to model. I'm still thinking about that.

Vadskye
2014-03-09, 11:53 PM
Thanks. That's so simple that I can't believe I missed it, and I like it a lot.
Thanks! It took more effort to figure out than I'd like to admit; simple ideas are always easier in retrospect. And nerfing divine in some way is probably good.

qwertyu63
2014-03-10, 07:30 PM
What about modeling it as a set of alternate class features? That might be the easiest way to do the eldritch knight style thing. A sorcerer/wizard can boost their hit die and BAB, maybe pick up a weapon proficiency or the ability to wear light armor without spell failure, in exchange for banning an extra school or dropping spells known?

A theurge ACF would be interesting too, but hard to model. I'm still thinking about that.

Check the Battle Sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana. It boosts BAB and hit die while giving light armor proficiency/casting and a single martial weapon proficiency; all of this is at the cost of 1 spell known/level and 1 spell slot/level. It also trades Bluff for Intimidate on the skill list, but that's neither here nor there.