Ways to reduce a creature's Wisdom or Will save?

[Flickerdart]

Let's say you have a creature at your mercy. You don't want to kill it, but you have a way of making sure it never disobeys you again, as long as you can make it fail Will saves reliably. What sort of things can you inflict upon it that will make this more likely to succeed?

[Urpriest]

Bestow Curse is the standard. I could definitely see some of the Necrotic Cyst line working for this.

[Flickerdart]

Anything non-arcane? Thinking mostly psionics at this point.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Anything non-arcane? Thinking mostly psionics at this point.

Bestow Curse is also divine.

[deuxhero]

Robe of Weakness Powerlessness works if they cast off wisdom.

[Rakaydos]

Swordsage and Warblade have access to Mind Strike, doing 1d4 wis damage every other round...

[rmnimoc]

Snag an Allip. At 4-hd it's easy to control and it does 1d4 wis drain (which is permanent short of restoration) with a touch.

Bestow Curse works great for this too, though it can be a bit more expensive. It can give the target -4 to any rolls (-4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.) and a second casting for -6 to an ability score.

The greater version of that spell (spell level 4 if you get the scroll from a demonologist) can drop any ability score to 1, or give -8 to any rolls (-8penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks).

Cackle fever does 1d6 wisdom damage.

A bundle of holy arrows Sovereign glue'd to his hand works too.

[Irk]

Doomspeak would work.

[Urpriest]

Anything non-arcane? Thinking mostly psionics at this point.

One silly option: if their Wisdom is better than their Cha and their Cha is at least 13, Psychic Reformation for the feat Force of Personality.

[Know(Nothing)]

Keep them shaken or frightened, and sickened.

[deuxhero]

One silly option: if their Wisdom is better than their Cha and their Cha is at least 13, Psychic Reformation for the feat Force of Personality.

An Ego-Whip from there.

[Juntao112]

Let's say you have a creature at your mercy. You don't want to kill it, but you have a way of making sure it never disobeys you again, as long as you can make it fail Will saves reliably. What sort of things can you inflict upon it that will make this more likely to succeed?

A lobotomy.

[Lord Vukodlak]

One silly option: if their Wisdom is better than their Cha and their Cha is at least 13, Psychic Reformation for the feat Force of Personality.

Problem the subject chooses his reformation not the caster.

[rmnimoc]

Problem the subject chooses his reformation not the caster.

And that's okay. Mind control isn't just about telling the creature what to do.

It's about telling them what they want to do. Go Charm Person!
Also, just remember:

Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing

[Lord Vukodlak]

And that's okay. Mind control isn't just about telling the creature what to do.

It's about telling them what they want to do. Go Charm Person!
Also, just remember:
Charm person doesn't work that way. If you could command them to rewrite there feats and skills you could command them to fail a will save which negates any need to make it worse.


Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing.
That line also only applies to spells that are restricted to willing targets only. (psychic reformation is not one of them).
Willing or unwilling is irrelevant because the subject makes all the decisions as to whats retrained. If they're unconscious then they'd be incapable of making any decisions and nothing would change.

[mabriss lethe]

Diplomacy will bypass saves outright and can create fanatically devoted followers if you pump your skills and modifiers high enough.

[rmnimoc]

Charm person doesn't work that way. If you could command them to rewrite there feats and skills you could command them to fail a will save which negates any need to make it worse.

"Dude, awesome idea, I'll cast this spell on you and you pick Force of personality. I've got all kinds of spells that boost CHA, but not too many for WIS. Sound good?"
"Way to help a friend out man, you are the best. Cast away my friend."
"Good thing you automatically perceive everything I say in the best way possible, which, if I ever felt like playing you, would make it easy as it gets."
"Yeah, that might be annoying. You're a funny guy."
---
"Hey dude, fun fact, if you aren't a caster with knowledge arcana or spellcraft your odds properly identifying what I'm about to do are pretty slim. Plus, if I just make noises and hand motions, you can't tell that I'm not casting a spell. Cool huh? On a side note, I know this awesome spell that will give you awesome bonuses to your rolls, mind failing your saving though?"
"Not a problem dude, that sounds awesome."
"Yep, good thing that when you are willing you can volunteer to give up saving throws."
"Total barrel of laughs."


That line also only applies to spells that are restricted to willing targets only. (psychic reformation is not one of them).
Willing or unwilling is irrelevant because the subject makes all the decisions as to whats retrained. If they're unconscious then they'd be incapable of making any decisions and nothing would change.

So I guess it's a good thing that charm person lasts hours per level, so just heal them to wake them up. Might take a while though, since you are of the position that everyone either magically knows the spell isn't dangerous and only resists when it is, or just away tries to resist any spells while unconscious. Will save for half (harmless) means it might take a little bit to wake it back up.

Here are my views on the willing thing, spoilered to avoid wasting any of the thread. There are exactly six mentions of the word "willing" in the srd's page on spell descriptions. One is about touch spells and targets:

Touch
You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Four are for the rules specifying what a willing target is:
Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
And the last one is willingly accepting the result of a spell:
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

I'm of the school of thought that since you can save against spells you don't see cast, and don't automatically know that a spell was cast on you if you fail, that you always got a saving throw for anything, but you can choose to deny it when you want. Such as for willing and harmless spells. In my mind, anything with a "willing" target line just means that it basically has "Saving Throw: 0 for No Effect". Which, again in my mind, means that willing means you forgo your saving throw. So whenever you are "willing" you voluntarily forgo your saving throw. Because otherwise you are in a bad place when it comes to post battlefield healing, having to cast any healing spell twice as much. Which sucks. It also means that anything that takes WIS damage to unconsciousness from a disease can't accept your restoration, cure disease, or neutralize poison. Anyway that is my take on it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If you can switch to CHA, Feeblemind would do the trick--though it would also reduce their INT to 1, too, so you'd need to work around that, or just accept that you have a barely sentient puppet on your hands.

Scimitar of the Fool (Magic of Faerun, p. 144) is an easy way to impose a -3 penalty to your charge's Will saves, while simultaneously empowering them a small amount, but probably cost-prohibitive at lower levels.

[Jeff the Green]

Snag an Allip. At 4-hd it's easy to control and it does 1d4 wis drain (which is permanent short of restoration) with a touch.

You can summon one with SUIV, too, which is how a level 7 cleric defeats the Tarrasque.

[Socksy]

Limited wish? Bend reality? What level are you guys?

My first thought was the Allip, but someone got there first.

If there's a WIS-reducing poison (or CHA-reducing if you're using links between those two), that should do it.

[Jeff the Green]

If there's a WIS-reducing poison (or CHA-reducing if you're using links between those two), that should do it.

Several. From the Poisoner's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0):


1d6 Wis: Doubt Bomb (Fiend Folio)
1d4 Wis: Insanity Mist (A&EG 37)
1d4 Wis: Psychotropic Rot (DoTU 94, ingested)
1d4 Wis: Battass Smoke (Serpent Kingdoms, Inhaled)

[TuggyNE]

Such as for willing and harmless spells. In my mind, anything with a "willing" target line just means that it basically has "Saving Throw: 0 for No Effect". Which, again in my mind, means that willing means you forgo your saving throw. So whenever you are "willing" you voluntarily forgo your saving throw. Because otherwise you are in a bad place when it comes to post battlefield healing, having to cast any healing spell twice as much. Which sucks. It also means that anything that takes WIS damage to unconsciousness from a disease can't accept your restoration, cure disease, or neutralize poison. Anyway that is my take on it.

It generally seems more sensible to me to simply use the clear RAW on (harmless) spells to handle such things.
(harmless)
The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.

And boom, all the problematic cases that might justify equivocating willing targets and voluntarily forgoing saving throws just disappear, leaving no good reason to do so, and quite a number of good reasons not to.

[Lord Vukodlak]

"Dude, awesome idea, I'll cast this spell on you and you pick Force of personality. I've got all kinds of spells that boost CHA, but not too many for WIS. Sound good?"
"Way to help a friend out man, you are the best. Cast away my friend."
"Good thing you automatically perceive everything I say in the best way possible, which, if I ever felt like playing you, would make it easy as it gets."
"Yeah, that might be annoying. You're a funny guy."
---
"Hey dude, fun fact, if you aren't a caster with knowledge arcana or spellcraft your odds properly identifying what I'm about to do are pretty slim. Plus, if I just make noises and hand motions, you can't tell that I'm not casting a spell. Cool huh? On a side note, I know this awesome spell that will give you awesome bonuses to your rolls, mind failing your saving though?"
"Not a problem dude, that sounds awesome."
"Yep, good thing that when you are willing you can volunteer to give up saving throws."
"Total barrel of laughs."

Charm person doesn't make the subject an idiot save. The subject wouldn't think the charmer was playing him but that doesn't mean he'd automatically consider it a good idea.

And taking force of personality when your wisdom is higher then your charisma seems like obviously harmful. The subject picks the feats so he'd have full and complete knowledge of its effects. If he doesn't then he couldn't pick it.

And again the willing/unwilling is irrelevant because Psychic Reformation has no saving throw and the subject makes the choices not the caster.


I know this awesome spell that will give you awesome bonuses to your rolls, mind failing your saving though?"
Dominate and Heroism may both be will negates but a character can still feel the difference between a harmless spell and a hostile one. He won't know what spell it is his friend is casting but he'll still feel a "hostile force" which would also immediately break the charm

[Vaz]

Wall of Incarnum is a Wis reducing spell.

[delenn]

Touch of Idiocy has no save, as long as you make the touch attack, and does 1d6 INT/WIS/CHA damage. It's not permanent, but lasts long enough (10 min/lvl) to make a target more vulnerable to other effects.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You could also intentionally make a cursed item that reduces will saving throws. If you really get into the customization it could be command word activated.

[Amphetryon]

If you're considering Pathfinder options, there's the Feat Concussion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/critical-feats---3rd-party---super-genius-games/concussion-combat-critical) listed in the PFSRD; it's both Pathfinder and 3rd party, though.

[Urpriest]

An Ego-Whip from there.

Was going to suggest that, but drop below 13 Cha and you stop qualifying for the feat.