Nonlethal damage?

[krossbow]

this thread is to discuss the viability, as a theory, of the "Roy was only trying to inflict non-lethal damage" view.


Arguments:

For:

-Roy made a "clunk" noise when hitting her.

-The flat of the sword was facing us, so he was hitting her with it

-Roy is LG and would therefore not just try to kill her.

Against:

-green flame at start

-impales miko

-doesn't care about her enough now.








My personal argument is that Roy was inflicting lethal damage. My view is this: Miko's armor was hit with the sword, as seen by the cracked pauldron; this shows that he was not slapping her with the flat. the blade was faced downward, and thus the impact was focused in a lethal way. Now, some people say "But it only cracked it! He was aiming for her armor! He didn't switch to lethal till that final attack!"

why? What is the basis? Before this, roy easily parried her attack; why would he switch from non-lethal to very definite lethal if she was just stopped by him? If miko had done the slashy thing that she did in her 1st attack prior to roy impaling her, it would make sense; he would switch up as he believed her too strong. But she didn't succeed in that attack, and therefore he had no logical reason to simply up and decide to kill her. The more logical point to impale her would of been after her first attack when she was successful.





Please discuss rationaly and with respect.

[Haruki-kun]

Well........he IMPALED her. Enough said.

[Serenity]

There's no evidence the Green Flame did anything to her like it did to Sabine. It's designed to kill undead and possibly evil outsiders. There's no reason to believe that Fallen Paladins are also on that list. Further, it's clear that Roy has no control over when it flares.

It could have been still amplified the damage of that first blow, but going by the bruise (not cut) on Miko's cheek, that was a subdual blow.

Every time the Order has gone up against non-monstrous opponents before, it's ended with the enemies trussed up.

Dealing lethal damage in D&D is not in and of itself an argument against attempting to subdue someone. If they have any subdual damage, they go unconscious when their hit point total drops below that. And even if Roy was dealing nothing but lethal, she doesn't start dying until she hits the negatives, and can be stabilized.

[13_CBS]

Perhaps he started with non lethal damage and moved onto lethal because he got angrier as the fight went along?

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

I think... no, I KNOW that the damage was lethal. It doesn't get much more lethal than stabbing.

[Demented]

First off, that "thunk" noise was Roy hitting Miko's pauldron.
Second off, bruises can be lethal damage. Greatclubs are lethal, yet they can't be used to cut your opponent to ribbons.
Third off, Miko WAS succesful with her full attack. She merely missed twice, and hit the third attack.

[Justinian]

That was all lethal damage. The possibility of non-lethal damage never crossed my mind, and now that I see others suggesting it... it's still not even crossing my mind. He was trying to kill her.

Maybe she deserved it, maybe she didn't, that's a valid topic, but whether or not he was trying to kill her is not worth much dispute when two panels later he's impaled her with a greatsword.

[Setra]

whether or not he was trying to kill her is not worth much dispute when two panels later he's impaled her with a greatsword.

QFT

The last time I checked, when you're sword is sticking through someone's body, you're trying to kill them.

Case in point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html)

[Deper]

Miko is a paranoid murderer who has defeated the entire team with on no less than two occasions, and who has made it infinitely clear that she has centered her hatred on him and his friends. She had killed someone, was rearming herself, and he was going to be facing her alone.

Taking a penalty to all of his attacks at the beginning of the fight would have been stupid. He would be better off applying lethal damage for most of the fight and switch to subdual near the end. He's also angry, at her and what she's done, so he's got some aggression to work off while he's at it.

He can switch over to subdual when it's clear she's lost and won't be standing for more than another hit or two (or has some allies for backup).

[clarkvalentine]

The "clunk" wasn't intentional - it was a blow deflected by her armor. You can see the dent in her shoulder guard in the following frames.


- Clark

[TinSoldier]

Looking at previous comics, a black # is used to show either burn damage or bludgeoning damage. I didn't look through all of the comics but in a quick scan of a few I didn't see any read #s except in #408.

I think that the red # indicates a lethal attack. However there isn't enough evidence and I'm sure if it was non-lethal it will probably be mentioned in an upcoming comic.

[Mr Teufel]

Ok, I'll buy that the 'Thunk' was sword hitting armour. But his first blow may not have been lethal. '#' implies blunt damage; the only way of doing blunt damage with a greatsword is with the flat of the blade; in D&D the flat of the blade represents non-lethal damage.

So it would be both reasonable to get one hit in non-lethal by surprise to limit the effect of the -4 penalty, then change to lethal damage knowing that you're likely to knock the target unconscious without killing them. In D&D it only takes a bit of non-lethal damage to allow a state of unconsciousness that isn't also bleeding to death. Even if a subsequent hit is a critical.

[Deper]

Ok, I'll buy that the 'Thunk' was sword hitting armour. But his first blow may not have been lethal. '#' implies blunt damage; the only way of doing blunt damage with a greatsword is with the flat of the blade; in D&D the flat of the blade represents non-lethal damage.

You're mixing the logic of a three dimensional existance with a 2 dimension world. They're stick figures. It he turns the sword sideways it becomes a line.

[Mr Teufel]

I'm actually referring to the "#" shape of the resulting wound. The Giant puts red lines to indicate cuts, but hash marks to indicate blows. Hence that was a blow with a greatsword (not a slash), hence non-lethal.

Sadly, any 'splortch' or 'thwack' sound seems to have been overwhelmed by the green flash.

[Shub]

You're mixing the logic of a three dimensional existance with a 2 dimension world. They're stick figures. It he turns the sword sideways it becomes a line.You can't do that in a two dimensional world. Besides, OotS-world is 3D.

[Deper]

You can't do that in a two dimensional world. Besides, OotS-world is 3D.

Exactly, but the art isn't 3D. When was the last time we saw the sword (or any other weapon for that matter) from a different angle? I don't ever recalling it happen, though someone with better search-fu might be able to prove me wrong.

Sorry, Mr Teufel, I misread what you were saying. I thought you were arguing about Roy not using the flat in the picture.

[TinSoldier]

I'm actually referring to the "#" shape of the resulting wound. The Giant puts red lines to indicate cuts, but hash marks to indicate blows. Hence that was a blow with a greatsword (not a slash), hence non-lethal. Yes, but as I noted above the "#" is usually black representing bludgeoning or burn damage. In #408 the "#" is red like cut lines usually are.

[malagigi]

Heck, look at the first panels. You see the profile of the stairs, but you don't see a profile of the dais. Perspective gets wonky sometimes.

Roy wasn't using half measures.

[Deper]

Heck, look at the first panels. You see the profile of the stairs, but you don't see a profile of the dais. Perspective gets wonky sometimes.

Roy wasn't using half measures.

That's background, which changes scene to scene. Let's see an example of weapons at different angles. There's over 400 strips, there has to be an example of someone turning a melee weapon to a different angle.

Course, I think he's going all out at the moment. It's the only smart thing to do against Miko.

[Fighteer]

I think Roy was fed up with Miko, and was taking the chance for some well-deserved payback. Not exactly Lawful Good? Well, if you go by Miko's standards... especially when she has spent almost the entire time with them accusing them of various moral flaws... it's almost a necessity that he attack her to kill.

If she had surrendered, that would have been different. He can't kill her after she surrenders, not without betraying his principles.

But the red hash mark indicates bleeding, and you don't usually bleed from nonlethal damage - or least that's the idea.

[Erk]

Interesting that the predominate view is lethal. I assumed from the # and the "thunk" the first time I read it that he was hoping to knock her out, or knock her into surrender, then got fed up at her meeting with lethal damage, and impaled her. This is one I wish Rich could answer, on or off comic, since I don't think we can really reach more than a judgement call otherwise.

[mlund]

Perhaps I've just been playing Dungeons and Dragons wrong for a while now, but when your Non-Lethal Damage total exceeds your Current Hit Point total, you are subdued, correct?

Ergo, once I've inflicted a substantial amount of non-lethal damage, I no longer need to take an asinine -4 to hit penalty to bring them down. I can go to town with regular attacks and, barring an extraordinary power-attack critical hit, they should drop well before I threaten to put them into -10 or lower ranged.

Roy only needs one good Non-Lethal power-attack on a Flat-footed Miko. Once that connects he can go full Lethal without worrying about killing her - which he probably has to do as I don't think he could take her if he spent the entire combat at -4 to hit.

- Marty Lund

[Haruki-kun]

Heck......if I had the chance I'd kill her myself.

[Whisper]

As as been stated slashes with swords or being stuck with an arrow have been depicted by single slashes. Magical effects, lightning bolts, fireballs and the like along with blunt trama like being hit with a door have been depicted with a #. So therefore the first blow was an attempt for subdual and after Miko's attack Roy switched back to lethal damage.

[atteSmythe]

If it was something as unusual as nonlethal damage, I would've expected The Giant to use a purple airbrush splotch as the damage marker. The red # theory is bunk - see the fight between Sabine and Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html). Roy has a red # in that fight, and I sincerely doubt that Sabine was dealing nonlethal damage.

[berrew]

I am on the side for "not trying to kill Miko". Who cares about the damage type that is inflicted while she is over 100 HPs? His non-monstrous opponants end up trussed up and ready for delivery somewhere, regardless of the type of damage inflicted.

I admit, I have always disliked using the term "lethal" for damage that, taken by itself, isn't lethal in the RL definition of the world*. "Lethal" damage in AD&D isn't actually lethal until that last few HPs - and its a MUCH more efficient way of whittling down an opponant's HP.

*OK, there is a definition of lethal that is "potent or effective", but I don't think we are referring to that here.

[Fighteer]

Interesting that the predominate view is lethal. I assumed from the # and the "thunk" the first time I read it that he was hoping to knock her out, or knock her into surrender, then got fed up at her meeting with lethal damage, and impaled her.
The "Thunk" was his second attack, which hit her armor (missed). :miko: screamed in pain on the first hit.


Perhaps I've just been playing Dungeons and Dragons wrong for a while now, but when your Non-Lethal Damage total exceeds your Current Hit Point total, you are subdued, correct?
This is correct. We all agree that :roy: could have attacked :miko: to subdue, but the prevailing opinion seems to be that he did not.

[Whisper]

If it was something as unusual as nonlethal damage, I would've expected The Giant to use a purple airbrush splotch as the damage marker. The red # theory is bunk - see the fight between Sabine and Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html). Roy has a red # in that fight, and I sincerely doubt that Sabine was dealing nonlethal damage.

The red # is from the blunt trauma he takes in #343. The red # is for blunt traumas and to get that from a sword means non lethal damage. The hypothesis still stands.

[chibibar]

Well, it is hard to tell via stick figure and 2D art what type of attack it might be. ALSO remember that not every single attack might have been drawn (wouldn't that get boring) only key moments and dialog.

Personally at this point, in Roy's eye, Miko has lost it and gone evil (He thinks she has gone evil, I'm not saying that Miko became evil that is a different debate) Roy doesn't have to spare if the opponent is evil per se. Goblins, monsters, evil NPC and such are kill without second thought (remember this is a RPG comic/game/session)

Also as many have pointed out before via Shojo's death is not much with a ressurection, I'm sure Roy will bring Miko to negative but won't kill her at the end. Who knows, of course with all the fighting going on in the throne room, I'm surprise the guards, clerics, magic users and whatever hasn't come running in and check!

[Fighteer]

Personally at this point, in Roy's eye, Miko has lost it and gone evil (He thinks she has gone evil, I'm not saying that Miko became evil that is a different debate) Roy doesn't have to spare if the opponent is evil per se. Goblins, monsters, evil NPC and such are kill without second thought (remember this is a RPG comic/game/session)

Also as many have pointed out before via Shojo's death is not much with a ressurection, I'm sure Roy will bring Miko to negative but won't kill her at the end. Who knows, of course with all the fighting going on in the throne room, I'm surprise the guards, clerics, magic users and whatever hasn't come running in and check!
It's entirely possible to run a D&D campaign where comparative rather than absolute morality prevails; there are even tips for it in the DMG and a few supplements. That said, even in the black & white world, if a goblin surrenders to a LG character and does not pose an immediate threat, it is an Evil (or at least non-Good) act to kill the goblin. Depending on the laws and/or the ethical code of the PC, it could also be considered Chaotic.

One of the best trick's in a good DM's playbook to confound players that are too into hack 'n slash is to have enemies surrender. :smallwink:

The other thing, about resurrection of prominent NPCs, is a bit trickier. Very few D&D campaign settings and adventures properly take into account the fact that NPCs can be raised just as easily as PCs. In most fiction (which roleplaying is a form of), when the king is dead, he's dead. The concept of resurrection brings an entirely new set of legal issues into play. On the one hand, you'd think that any competent ruler would keep a priest on retainer for the exclusive purpose of raising him should he be killed. On the other hand, war and assassination would have to be planned very carefully, not only to eliminate the major opposing figures, but also to make sure they can't be raised again to make more trouble. And then there's the ever so interesting problem of succession...

In Shojo's case, though, the possibility does arise that he could be approaching the age where resurrection becomes impossible. Not to mention that he might even look on death as a kind of relief from the burden of his duties, and welcome the opportunity to go hang out with :roy: 's dad and bang celestial chicks. :smalltongue:

[chibibar]

hehe.. that is true. Generally in my world of gaming, ressurection is availble to those who can afford it and have access to the people who can do it, but ressurection will bring you to the current age. It is not a fountain of youth. So if you died at 80 and get ressurected, you are still 80 :)

you are right in terms of ressurection available to NPC, but I would go further with usually for "non-essential" NPC. Reoccuring villians, cool henchmen (like Redcloak type) and such probably have some way to get ressurected. A person like Nale for sure I will find way to get him ressurected.

The Bandit Chief and Daughter? not really. They are not essential or reoccuring villians.

Miko is a reoccuring "villian" and will have a good chance of being ressurected.

NOTE: IF I was the one running this campaign.

[Fighteer]

Miko is a reoccuring "villian" and will have a good chance of being ressurected.

NOTE: IF I was the one running this campaign.
No Good priest would willingly resurrect a fallen paladin without at least some guarantee that (s)he was willing to attempt to atone. In fact, if :miko: were convicted of murder/treason and executed, it could even be against the law to resurrect her.

You guys remember the sequence where :miko: "escaped" from :mitd: , and :xykon: speculated about what kind of undead she would make if raised? Foreshadowing...?

[krossbow]

Good thing that neutral ones and evil ones vastly outnumber the amount of good clerics in D&D worlds...




but as for non-lethal. I believe that you only disable or stagger them if their lethal and non-lethal add up to their HP; I think you have to inflict double their HP in non-lethal to actually knock them out (Let me check that though).


but either way, I don't think any of those blows were non-lethal. Numerous times in OoTS, characters have gotten scratches and black eyes from lethal damage. Look at Elan after the goblin ninjas got through with him; did they somehow decide to do non-lethal to give him a black eye?

and my earlier problem still stands; he impales her, not after she lands a blow, but after she is blocked. Therefore, there wasn't a logical reason to switch if he hadn't already been inflicting lethal damage before.


Most of the fights that the order is in, they inflict lethal damage. THey have just been incredbily lucky with most that they have been knocked to more than -10 but below 0 IMO.

[Fighteer]

Most of the fights that the order is in, they inflict lethal damage. THey have just been incredbily lucky with most that they have been knocked to more than -10 but below 0 IMO.
Most DMs that I know of give PCs quite a bit of leeway in the "dying but not dead" department. After all, the game is ultimately about fun, and it's a lot more dramatic to have three rounds to save your character than to arbitrarily write him/her off (especially at low levels before resurrection spells become available).

There are exceptions, of course, such as blatant OOC stupidity on the players' part, or in key or dramatic battles. It's also sometimes a pain because very few PCs will willingly surrender, even when outnumbered and at very low hit points...

[DreadSpoon]

That said, even in the black & white world, if a goblin surrenders to a LG character and does not pose an immediate threat, it is an Evil (or at least non-Good) act to kill the goblin.

Not at all true. If a goblin is defined in the world to be irrevocably evil, it is entirely reasonable to assume that even an unarmed goblin is a taint that must be eradicated, even if it poses no immediate physical threat.

Likewise, some settings have alternative definitions of good and evil. One setting I play in at a large local LARP defines the "word of the peerage" and good and anything that stands against them as evil. Even the supernatural forces of the world support than definition; it's concrete. In said world, the Prince has issued a declaration that, "All goblins, orcs, trolls, and dark elves are irrevocably evil, and are to be killed on sight. Offering asylum to such creatures is Treason." And that's pretty strongly enforced. My PC has killed other PCs at least a few times for breaking setting and pulling the "they just want food, don't hurt them" crap. (There's nothing more irritating than a bunch of losers coming out to a game and trying to force *their* of idea of morals and social norms on top of the one that's been part of the game for the last 15 years... The worst are the jerks who try to bring out democracy, preaching it as the new form of government. Nobody in that setting would even *think* of democracy, but yet people keep bringing their modern, real-world ideas into the game setting. On the upside... I get to gack them for it.)

[Toxic Avenger]

Yes, but as I noted above the "#" is usually black representing bludgeoning or burn damage. In #408 the "#" is red like cut lines usually are.Yep. That leads me to believe that it was a cut from the sword, combined with a burn from the energy burst.

EDIT: Another possibility is that he might have sliced off a chunk of skin from Miko's face.

[Uzraid]

I too was confused by the hash mark scrape on Miko's face. I assumed that the Giant didn't want to give her Inigo Montoya scars on her face and therefore chose a differently shaped wound.

U

[Closet_Skeleton]

I think he did non-lethal damage and then started doing lethal damage. If you look at the subduel/non-lethal damage rules then as long as you've suffered some non-lethal damage you'll fall unconcious after suffering enough lethal damage. I'm guessing he hit her a few times with non-lethal and then started using lethal so he wouldn't get the -4 penalty. That final attack in 209 was definately blunt in my opinion.

[kerberos]

In any case the attack in the most recent strip was clearly nonlethal. No matter whether the first attack was or not.

[berrew]

Yup. As I alluded to before, "striking to subdue" an unwounded toon at 100 HP is not very effective. Fight until the chances of a crit hit will kill (or a normal hit, if you are in a stressful situation), *then* strike to subdue.

IMO, it's probably what Roy always does when fighting non-monstrous oppponants.