Level 8 group vs. Level 13 Brute

[Phantom Lotus]

I came across a level 13 brute (Water Archon Shoal Reaver)that would fit perfectly (story wise) into my game right now, but the party is only level 8. I worked in a way for them to lower the defenses if they make the proper checks, but I was wondering if there was something else that might unbalance it that I should look into.

[Surrealistik]

You could always delevel it; just reduce its skills by 1 for every 2 levels taken, its hp by 10 (6 for Artillery/Lurkers, 8 for every other role; multiply as appropriate for Elites and Solos) for every level taken, and its defenses, attack and damage rolls by 1 for every level taken.

[Cloud]

A level 13 brute, assuming it's from the MM3 or later (I can't seem to get adventure tools to load at this time so I can't check) will probably deal way more damage then the party can handle. Brutes already have lower defenses, so I'd say that's not the issue as much, but I wouldn't use a Brute more than 4 levels higher than the party (and probably aim for 1 or 2 levels over even in a hard encounter ideally and just use more of them).

Luckily though in 4e it's easy enough to rescale a monster, and assuming it's from MM3, -1 to attack, defenses, and damage per level, and for a brute 10 health a level, works well enough to rescale a monster (for +/- 5 levels or so at least, then it starts to break down a bit). For pre-MM3, I believe it's just 1 damage per 2 levels then. If the level 13 monster was picked to take up a large chunk of an xp budget, I'd look at making it a lower level, and then turning it into an elite.

Edit: Swordsaged. XD

[Inevitability]

Do you want this monster because of the flavor, or because of its abilities?

If it's the first, you can just search for a monster that's a good challenge to the party (like, level 10 or so) and call it a Water Archon. If it's the second, de-level it like people already suggested.

[Kimera757]

I came across a level 13 brute (Water Archon Shoal Reaver)that would fit perfectly (story wise) into my game right now, but the party is only level 8. I worked in a way for them to lower the defenses if they make the proper checks, but I was wondering if there was something else that might unbalance it that I should look into.

It's defenses aren't actually all that low to start. It's AC is low, but implement using PCs will have a very hard time hitting it unless they lower its defenses. You mentioned there's a way to do that, but no details.

My recommendation would be to delevel it to eight and make it an elite. Then have two or even three of them.

IME, very low level PCs can't handle higher-level opponents, but by about level 7 they tend to get lucky (consistently, I don't know how this works) and will simply burn down the creature that only gets one standard action per turn against their four or five or however many PCs you have, and that's assuming they're not using action points.

[GPuzzle]

IME, very low level PCs can't handle higher-level opponents, but by about level 7 they tend to get lucky (consistently, I don't know how this works) and will simply burn down the creature that only gets one standard action per turn against their four or five or however many PCs you have, and that's assuming they're not using action points.

Basic probability. If they have, say, 30% of chance to hit, they hit on a 14.

Now, it's not going to be multiplied because one action is not dependent on another. Every roll is independent. So for the Barbarian, it's 30% of chance, as it is for the Rogue and the Paladin and the Artificer|Warlord and the Invoker. All of their rolls are different, so someone is bound to hit at some point. And that's why in 3.5, when GM created traps like, say, a giant metal ball where the players were closed in and it had a deadly gas being put into it, which meant Fort save vs Poison, even if the Fighter or the Paladin had this incredibly huge Fort save, they could be the first ones to go down while the Wizard with a meager Fort save could be the last man standing.

[neonchameleon]

I came across a level 13 brute (Water Archon Shoal Reaver)that would fit perfectly (story wise) into my game right now, but the party is only level 8. I worked in a way for them to lower the defenses if they make the proper checks, but I was wondering if there was something else that might unbalance it that I should look into.

Meh. It's going to hurt, but the PCs should just about be able to cope. Those who say it will hit too hard haven't, I think, taken into account that at level +8 damage (plus multiplier), it doesn't actually hit as hard as a level 8 Elite Brute. And is hittable. It's fine - very weak unless it's supported by other stuff.

[NecroRebel]

Meh. It's going to hurt, but the PCs should just about be able to cope. Those who say it will hit too hard haven't, I think, taken into account that at level +8 damage (plus multiplier), it doesn't actually hit as hard as a level 8 Elite Brute. And is hittable. It's fine - very weak unless it's supported by other stuff.

The problem, I think, is actually that it will die so much more easily than an equivalent exp-value of lower-level stuff, and as a result will deal less damage than 2 level 9 standard brutes would over the course of the battle, and thus just generally isn't suitable for inclusion for that reason. The solution is the same - level it down and make it elite - but the problem isn't because it's too powerful, but because it's not powerful enough for the cost.

[Kimera757]

The monster is from Monster Manual 2, so the damage is pretty low.

As a level 8 elite, it should be doing 20 damage on average a hit, so about 2d8 + 11 damage, and it should have a double attack letting it make a melee basic attack twice.

Water Harpoon should deal an average of 30 damage, so 4d8 + 12 damage, and it should have this as a triggered ability:

Bloodied Harpoon * Encounter.

Trigger: The shoal reaver is first bloodied. Effect (Free Action): Water harpoon recharges, and the shoal reaver uses it.

Whirlpool of Tines should be recharge 5 or 6 (average damage of about 25 due to potential for extra damage, so 4d8 + 7)

Note that at heroic level, it should only have one of these abilities. Pick whichever you like.

Basic combat stats: AC 20, NADs at -5 and attack bonus of +13 vs AC and +11 vs NAD. Hit points: 218