Acid sling bullets

[Dalebert]

I had some vials made special. They're gallon sized and round. Filled them up with water and cast water to acid then shrink item, extended, of course. Now it can be used as a sling bullet.

DM decided it would do 3d6 vs. 1d6 for a pint flask. What do you think?

EDIT:
I checked at this site (http://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-sphere) and gallon jugs probably get too small for sling bullets. If I start with a spherical flask about a foot in diameter, it will shrink to 3/4 of an inch and that's almost 4 gallons of acid. If I want to end up with a 1 inch bullet flask, that would be 16 inches in diameter which is about 9 gallons.

[TuggyNE]

Well, total immersion in acid is only 10d6, so make of that what you will.

[Slipperychicken]

Obviously, these are going to be improvised ammunition, so assuming the shrink item'd flasks are reasonably bullet-shaped, I'd impose the same penalty as using stones (-1 to attack rolls, weapon damage treated as 1 size category smaller).

For the acid damage, I'd look to the description of the (3rd party) Water to Acid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/frog-god-games/transmute-water-to-acid) spell. I'm guessing that's the one you're using for this trick.


This spell transforms a volume of normal or magically created water into an equal volume of highly corrosive acid. Any creature touching this acid takes 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure. If the acid is consumed, the victim takes 10d6 points of damage and must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 15 + caster’s
relevant ability score modifier) or take 1d6 points of Constitution damage. One minute later the victim must make a second save (same DC) or take another 1d6 points of Constitution damage.

For simply being splashed, I'd say it should deal an initial 1d6, plus damage over time lasting 1 round/level or until the target takes a full round action to wipe the acid off, whichever comes first. Multiple applications of the acid don't stack.

[AnonymousPepper]

Just a little nitpick here, but sling bullets are not spherical.

That's totally not aerodynamic at all and doesn't allow for the proper imparting of force onto the bullet. Rather, a sling bullet will be a tri-axial ellipsoid. You need to figure on having a smaller capacity, given that you will have the same X dimension and smaller Y and Z dimensions. Assuming you keep the 1ft base diameter for axis a, and reduce the size of the others to a roughly adequate scale - say, 7 and 3 inches each - you are in fact looking at a much smaller volume. .57 gallons, to be exact. However, you're underestimating the size of a bullet. According to wiki, a typical sling bullet is around 1 3/4" long and 3/4" wide, so, with an arbitrary height of .5, that ends up translating to a 22x12x8in flask that you're shrinking, giving a total volume of 4.78 gallons. Assuming 5% of the size of the flask is taken up by the outer case of the flask, this means a total capacity of 4.1 (round that down to 4, imo) gallons.

That math nitpick aside (the only practical effect of which is that you'll probably end up spending slightly more on materials), you still end up with 4 gallons of acid.

That's a pretty good amount of acid, even if acid is still quite weak relatively speaking, and it can be flung much more accurately and further than a flask. It would probably also be a touch attack, although that's just me; I'd ask the DM about that one. I would say so, because it doesn't need to penetrate armor, it just needs to touch him to break, but then again, there's a reason I don't DM.

In addition, everything said above me is almost certainly spot on.

You could also load this with some sort of poison, but you would want to shrink the bullet first BEFORE loading poison, or else you'd find your costs would increase far beyond your ability to pay very very quickly.

Honestly, all together, this is all a pretty good deal and a decent upgrade for prolonging the life of a sling.

[Slipperychicken]

Just a little nitpick here, but sling bullets are not spherical.

Yeah, in real life, they're typically oval-shaped. You can just google it to see examples.

I don't agree with the touch attack thing. Grazing someone isn't enough: you need a solid hit to break glass and get the liquid onto the target.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, in real life, they're typically oval-shaped. You can just google it to see examples.

I don't agree with the touch attack thing. Grazing someone isn't enough: you need a solid hit to break glass and get the liquid onto the target.

Well, alchemist's fire/acid/holy water are all glass vials that make touch attacks, so making an unusually large vial that can do the same thing seems more or less reasonable. Maybe make attacks take a -1 or -2 penalty because the glass needs to be a bit stronger, but since you're launching the shrunk item and then having it expand and break with the force of four gallons or so of acid, I'm not sure even that penalty is needed.

[AnonymousPepper]

Actually, it would appear that we have all been Swordsage'd by WotC.

I was reading the Arms and Equipment Guide looking for some cool alchemical items for my Artificer to craft, and when I got to pages 32 and 33...

Bullet, Acid
Amount - Sling bullet
Alch DC - 15
Cost - 10gp
Weight - 10oz

These hollow glass sling bullets are filled with acid. When they strike a target, they immediately shatter, dealing 1d4 points of acid damage in addition to the normal damage form the sling bullet. To hold sufficient acid, these bullets must be larger than normal. The increased size makes the bullets awkward and unwieldy to launch, imposing a -2 penalty on the attack roll.

I suppose your variant could still be allowed, OP, but there IS an existing acid bullet already.

[Seffbasilisk]

There are also Suspension Spheres.

A suspension sphere (acid) would do the 10d6 acid, but they're intended to be thrown rather than slung. I suppose a Warsling might deliver them quite effectively...but they go for 1,500gp a pop.

[Dalebert]

Some additional info I forgot--we were treating them as touch attacks per the thrown flask but not applying sling bullet damage, no penalties to to-hit. The idea is the breaking of a very tiny glass vial would absorb the energy of impact and then the shrink would be dismissed and the target would be covered with a large amount of expanding acid.


Obviously, these are going to be improvised ammunition, so assuming the shrink item'd flasks are reasonably bullet-shaped, I'd impose the same penalty as using stones (-1 to attack rolls, weapon damage treated as 1 size category smaller).


I don't agree. They presumably need to be blown and can be shaped as they're blown. A sling bullet shape isn't that complicated and the glass-blower gets to make an item that is a foot long before it gets shrunk down to 3/4 of an inch. Details could actually be shaped fairly precisely at that size. Then you fill the vial with water and cast the water to acid spell (from Stormwrack. (http://dndtools.eu/spells/stormwrack--87/water-to-acid--3371/) Is that 3rd party?) I honestly don't know. I'll ask my DM if he wants to disallow it. Then you permanently seal the opening with something acid-proof. Then you shrink it. Voila! I used Extend to double the duration so it will stay shrunk for 22 days currently. Easy to keep renewed in between adventures.



For simply being splashed, I'd say it should deal an initial 1d6, plus damage over time lasting 1 round/level or until the target takes a full round action to wipe the acid off, whichever comes first. Multiple applications of the acid don't stack.

1d6 is what a thrown pint flask does. This is 4 gallons. I could see spreading some dmg over time perhaps but I can't see just wiping acid off. Maybe diluting it with a lot of water if you had it on hand makes sense. Great time to have Create Water handy and cast it over your head.


...but since you're launching the shrunk item and then having it expand and break with the force of four gallons or so of acid, I'm not sure even that penalty is needed.

We were treating them as breaking and then expanding. Either way, they shouldn't do extra impact damage because a 4 gallon vial would weigh about 4000 times the bullet form and thus wouldn't have much momentum (because it's linked to mass).



These hollow glass sling bullets are filled with acid. When they strike a target, they immediately shatter, dealing 1d4 points of acid damage in addition to the normal damage form the sling bullet. To hold sufficient acid, these bullets must be larger than normal. The increased size makes the bullets awkward and unwieldy to launch, imposing a -2 penalty on the attack roll.[/I]


Mine is different. Arguably better but also more expensive. Also, you don't have to worry about renewing shrink item on those. The fact that mine are shrunk to bullet size means they wouldn't have the attack penalty and are practical to carry. Making two of mine at my CL of 11 requires three 3rd level spell castings--One water to acid and two shrink items. If I had to pay someone to cast them at 50gp per spell level, that would put the price of each bullet at 225gp!


There are also Suspension Spheres.


Do you have a reference? I have no idea what that is.

[hemming]

1d6 is what a thrown pint flask does. This is 4 gallons. I could see spreading some dmg over time perhaps but I can't see just wiping acid off. Maybe diluting it with a lot of water if you had it on hand makes sense. Great time to have Create Water handy and cast it over your head.


It was 4 gallons - then you shrunk it into a thimble

You could argue that it is a super concentrated version of acid - but if you shrunk any other weapon it would do less damage.

I think you should get 1D4 (a pint for 1D6 is a huge size for a sling!)

[Urpriest]

It was 4 gallons - then you shrunk it into a thimble

You could argue that it is a super concentrated version of acid - but if you shrunk any other weapon it would do less damage.

I think you should get 1D4 (a pint for 1D6 is a huge size for a sling!)

You're forgetting that items shrunk with Shrink Item re-expand on contact.

[Dalebert]

You're forgetting that items shrunk with Shrink Item re-expand on contact.

I probably should have mentioned that in the OP. I only just realized I left that out. I guess I presumed everyone was familiar with the spell effect.

[hemming]

Nope - not paying attention at all apparently

I was about to edit my post with a correction but you guys are too fast

(Read spell description first - post reply second)

[ericgrau]

I think by FAQ a tiny bit of acid splashes on the foe, probably 1 acid damage or 0 damage depending on how you read the effects of a shrunken item, then it hits the ground, then a pool of acid appears at the foe's feet. By RAW it likewise needs to land on a solid surface before returning to normal size. Or you can speak a "word of command" Which could be either a standard action or a free action depending on whether or not it works like a command word or if it's just speaking. It's annoyingly ambiguous hence why I use the FAQ.

[Dalebert]

Where are you finding the FAQ? So it says a creature is not considered a "solid surface" for the purpose of this spell?

[Seffbasilisk]

Do you have a reference? I have no idea what that is.


Dragon Magazine 313, page 56. Originally came across it Crystal Keep's lists.

[ericgrau]

Where are you finding the FAQ? So it says a creature is not considered a "solid surface" for the purpose of this spell?

The main FAQ at wizards.com IIRC, or else one of the articles. You could probably google 3.5 FAQ with site:www.wizards.com . It's a little hard to find 3.5 stuff but it's all still there.

Oh, I checked my copy of the FAQ and it didn't have "shrink item". Probably a sage answer then. Still it's written by the book authors so while it's not always 100% it's pretty good. EDIT: Dang I can't find it with google either. I'm nearly certain I saw it though. I believe it involved hitting foes with a boulder.

Well if it's not in the FAQ nor in a sage answer it's more likely to contain a casual mistake anyway. Still, "solid surface" generally means "firm, hard, or compact in substance" in this kind of context.