Hurting Air and Fire Elementals

[A Gray Phantom]

I was reading throught the stats for air and fire elementals, and I noticed something peculiar. Nowhere in the stats does it say that they are invulnerable to physical attacks. This means that they can be killed with punches, kicks, and sword strikes.

My players unanimously agreed that was odd, since the creatures are made of air and fire, respectively. How can you punch the wind? How do you cut flame? Wouldn't these things logically be incorporeal?

This topic has been brought up a few times in my game. I can't help but want to agree, especially when we ended up matching a hellwasp swarm against a large air elemental:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#airElemental

The battle was very one-sided. The hellwasps made their reflex saves, then stung the elemental to death. It was quite gruesome.

:smallredface: I also had a naughty thought of what an elemental infected with hellwasps would be like (fortunately the elemental was a summoned beast, and had to leave).

What do you think? Should one be able to hurt an a air elemental with simple daggers and clubs?

Also, on an unrelated subject, how would you fight a swarm of hellwasps?

[nivek1234]

Although I think it a bit odd, it think WoTC allowed weapons to deal damage so that every class can attack the elemental. That said, I am not opposed to house ruling that the weapon has to be magical (i.e. having at least a +1 enchantment) in order for it to deal damage.

[Fizban]

It's not just wind, it's a cloud of highly condensed air and elemental energy.

[SpiderBrigade]

Physical blows interfere with their metaphoromorphic field...or whatever. It's a balance thing, probably.

[Mewtarthio]

You mean the same balance applied to Ghosts and Hellwasp Swarms?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Yeah, its rather dumb. Wanna know whats dumber? A fire elemental can catch a cold. Yup, if you notice there is no mention that they are immune to disease.

[Bears With Lasers]

Lulz. That would be the saddest little fire elemental ever to live.

"Cure a Small fire elemental of a cold" would be a great low-level quest.

[SpiderBrigade]

Hey, those are completely balanced. For certain values of completely.

[Kiroho]

Lulz. That would be the saddest little fire elemental ever to live.

"Cure a Small fire elemental of a cold" would be a great low-level quest.


Just don't be standing in front of it if it starts to sneeze. Flaming snot balls would be a nightmare to wash out of your clothes.

And how would you be able to tell if it really had the flu with a high fever? "Ummm, you're running a temperature of 1,350 degrees Fahrenheit. I think that's a bit high."

[Mewtarthio]

Wait, do colds even exist in DnD? I thought only horrible things like Ghoul Fever, Mummy Rot, and Slimy Doom existed.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Wait, do colds even exist in DnD? I thought only horrible things like Ghoul Fever, Mummy Rot, and Slimy Doom existed.
In the DMG alone there is...

Blinding Sickness
Cackle Fever
Demon Fever
Devil Chills
Filth Fever
Mindfire
Mummy Rot
Red Ache
Shakes
Slimy Doom


And not all of these are supernatural. A dire rat could easily infect a small fire elemental with filth fever for instance, the elemental having a Fort save of zilch.

Many other diseases as well. However, my point was that a fire elemental COULD catch a cold theoretically.

[Kantolin]

I kind of assumed that fire elementals in particular were solid.

I mean, they're not just fire that is there, they have a semisolid form. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to slam you back after you stab them.

I mean, if you vote they're not solid enough for you to hurt, then certainly they're not solid enough to hurt you. ^_^ And should be able to be completely doused by create water and such.

Edit: Personally, fun is turning a fire elemental... into a puppy. Let's see how it deals with that confusion! ^_^

And... why on earth are plants immune to polymorph? I can turn a person into a tree, but not a tree into a person?

[daggaz]

Heh funny logic that..

I propose a little test. Get in a fist fight with a bonfire, or a maybe a jetflame from an acetylene torch. Punch at it for a good hour. Then think about how the dense cloud of flaming hot gas and energy managed to wound you so badly, despite the fact that all of your blows passed harmlessly through it.


The air elemental, I would argue, is incorporeal except when it wants to exert a force, in which case it could use the air to deliver force blows.

[Awetugiw]

But then the fire only does fire damage. A fire elemental does both fire and physical damage.

And fire and air elementals are quite hard to damage with weapons. That's what their damage reduction is for.

As for hellswarm wasps: pretty much anything that is not a caster is going to lose from that one. Fire elementals are no exception.

[Rigeld2]

I propose a little test. Get in a fist fight with a bonfire, or a maybe a jetflame from an acetylene torch. Punch at it for a good hour. Then think about how the dense cloud of flaming hot gas and energy managed to wound you so badly, despite the fact that all of your blows passed harmlessly through it.
Hows about I use my magically enchanted sword to do the hacking for me... that or my ki enhanced fists. Cause I dont like killing catgirls.

[healbot42]

my point was that a fire elemental COULD catch a cold theoretically.

I thought elementals don't have a Con score.:smallconfused: Doesn't that make them immune to all things that require a Fort save unless it is harmless or affects objects?

[Rigeld2]

Fire Elemental, Small
...
Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#abilities): Str 10, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11You thought wrong.

[Kantolin]

It was essentially stated, but a fire elemental does both physical and fire damage. It in fact has a 'slam' attack. If it wasn't in some fashion solid, that wouldn't work. The key word utilized above was 'slam'.


The air elemental, I would argue, is incorporeal except when it wants to exert a force, in which case it could use the air to deliver force blows.

You could. But they take physical damage, and also attack via slamming into the enemy. That seems to imply that, while possibly clear, they're also a semisolid stabbable entity.

At the same time, it's probably not too hard to invent a house rule if you'd like them to be more wispy, and just remove their slam attack and a few other features of them, or maybe treat them as a swarm or something. I just always saw fire elementals as amorphous fire creatures, but indeed with a solid core there for stabbing purposes.

[bosssmiley]

Lulz. That would be the saddest little fire elemental ever to live.

"Cure a Small fire elemental of a cold" would be a great low-level quest.

Now that's positively Classical in its ingenious cruelty. Imagine the poor thing trying to blow its nose; each successive tissue would be burnt to ash before it reached lil Sparky's nose, his Lemsip would evaporate before he could drink it, he'd even set his nice, cozy blanky on fire.

Snuffly Fire Elementals make me sad. :smallfrown:

[Kantolin]

Cast a high level resist energy(fire), pat it on the shoulder, tell it everything will be all right, then read it a bedtime story?

Uh, fireproof the book first.

[Indon]

Fire elementals strike me as kind of gelatinous; like napalm or something.

As for air elementals, well, they have significant damage reduction to reflect the fact that, well, they're air.

Yes, punching an air elemental the size of you shouldn't do too much, says common sense. But what about, say, a rock from a catapult flying through it? That would pretty much tear it apart, and pulling itself back together would likely strain it.

...no, I can't make this consistent with whirlwind form.

[Yakk]

CR 5 vs CR 8 -- not surprised it was one sided.

Try hellwasp swarm vs greater air elemental.

3d8 damage vs DR 10/-. Half of the swarm's hits bounce off the elemental.

The whirlwind is DC 25. Hellwasps have a reflex of +14. So they save about 1 in 2 times -- and entering the whirlwind requires two saves (one to avoid damage, two to avoid being trapped). The air elemental can move around and force new saves (it moves much faster than the swarm).

The real issue is that the swarm is immune to weapon damage. Otherwise the elemental would just smash the swarm to bits using power attack.

Note that the hellwasp swarm also slaughters a typical L 10 NPC warrior. :)

[Ted_Stryker]

I thought elementals don't have a Con score.:smallconfused: Doesn't that make them immune to all things that require a Fort save unless it is harmless or affects objects?
Undead don't have Con scores.

[Dervag]

Yeah, its rather dumb. Wanna know whats dumber? A fire elemental can catch a cold. Yup, if you notice there is no mention that they are immune to disease.Personally, I imagine that fire elementals have their own diseases. So they are immune to normal earthly diseases, but they can easily catch their own, unique diseases (such as Athlete's Flame, Tuburnerculosis, and the dreaded Hypothermia).

I would also extend the same reasoning to other elementals and any creature with a physiology radically different from that of earthly animals. So, for instance, treants can't catch typhoid, but they can catch Dutch Elm Disease.


I kind of assumed that fire elementals in particular were solid.

I mean, they're not just fire that is there, they have a semisolid form. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to slam you back after you stab them.This is the key. Fire elementals can surely hurt you even if they're just freestanding clouds of flame. But they wouldn't be able to move you, or any other object, if they were just freestanding clouds of flame. Likewise air elementals. Both kinds of elementals must have some sort of energy field or internal structure that keeps them from disintegrating, and this structure can be attacked by weapons.

[The_Snark]

Of course fire elementals can catch colds. It states specifically in the Fire subtype: Vulnerability to Cold. They're not just susceptible, they're vulnerable.

That is why elementals live on disease-free elemental planes.

[Fizban]

Well, consider the temperature at which most germs die. Consider that fire has been a sterilization tool since people realized it was a good idea. I'd say fire elementals have some diseases of their own though, most things that live have parasites.

[ken-do-nim]

As for hellswarm wasps: pretty much anything that is not a caster is going to lose from that one. Fire elementals are no exception.

I just recently put a party up against one. One melee character tried to use an energy weapon, since the energy part will hurt it, but he had trouble hitting the ac anyway. Meanwhile the swarm quickly realized that the wizard was the only one who was damaging it (cone of cold, magic missile) and went aggressively after him. The party halved the swarm, but the wizard was down to 1 dex, and it was time to flee. The tragedy of the fight was that the party bard ran (coward!), but his hold monster spell would have saved the day.

One interesting part of the fight was that the wizard cast web on the swarm. The swarm made its save. The player then tried to argue that even those who make their save must then push their way out of the web, so even flying up would mean pushing out 5 feet. I quickly checked a hellwasp swarm's strength - 1, I think. That wasn't going to happen. I ruled that since the swarm made its save, the individual insects weren't caught in the web and could fly out of the web unhindered due to their size.

I think it would be hilarious to see a swarm of spiders stuck in a web spell.