{D&D 3.5} Need help neutralizing a Hellfire Warlock...

[Specktheimp]

Hey everyone this is my first time posting - I’m running a game that i simply just lost all the time I had to plan things out as meticulously as i need to apparently. I allowed one of my guys to play a Hellfire Warlock, i looked online and it’s the Nebarius build that allows him to spam hellfire blasts.

Long story short we should not bother having encounters anymore. It’s annoying the crap out of the other players to the point they don’t want to play anymore, I am literally at a loss because anything that could put up a fight would wipe the rest of the party. The party is 7-10th level (Not everyone shows up for game night). I need “fair” ways of dealing with him so that the rest of the party can actually play. I know it’s my fault for allowing him to do it KNOWING he is a min/maxer but I like to actually allow people a bit of freedom.

Any help would be wonderful and thank you! &%$@ Touch attacks.

[Drogorn]

Not enough data. What's the rest of the party?

[Zanos]

Make him follow the rules, first of all.

He shouldn't be able to get into Hellfire Warlock until 10th level because the class requires 12 ranks in Knowledge(The Planes). So if he's level 10 he should only have 1 level in hellfire warlock, which would make his blasts do an extra 2d6(7 on average) damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think i'm missing something here. At level 10 he can have only one level of Hellfire Warlock, giving his Hellfire Blast +2d6 damage in addition to 5d6 Eldritch Blast damage. That's actually rather tame imo.

Does he do significantly more damage than the rest of the party? Do the other players miss a lot where he doesn't?
It sounds like the problem is less with the warlock and more with the other players being horribly inefficient.

[Specktheimp]

Rest of the party.

Werebat Rogue
Paladin of Tyranny
Cleric of Olidammanra
Dherri Bard (loooong story)
Human Drunken Master (occasionally when they show up)

As far as story setting. It’s a custom planet that i’ve always played on and jumped around on the timeline. The main bad guy right is a long dead Paragon Efreet (I dubbed it an Ermite). An ancestor is trying to revive him. There is also an 8-headed evil god that was long ago split into 8 personas. The current Efreet originally employed them to work for him and it seems they were working their own angle (The Paladin of Tyranny is one of the personas). The current Efreet also has an army of obsidian golems perched and ready to invade the Prime Material Plane. Right now in the story the Bad guys have all of the pieces of a scimitar that the Ermite’s Ego was stored in, they are forging it and then will have it’s ego “jump” into a gargantuan obsidian golem.... Not exactly sure of the 8-headed God’s motivations yet - it’s there as back up.

I should state that with what I had planned they’d be level 18 before they would face off against the golems...

[Specktheimp]

Make him follow the rules, first of all.

He shouldn't be able to get into Hellfire Warlock until 10th level because the class requires 12 ranks in Knowledge(The Planes). So if he's level 10 he should only have 1 level in hellfire warlock, which would make his blasts do an extra 2d6(7 on average) damage.

UGH. I quickly skimmed it based on the chart he sent me and quickly skimmed it against the online resources I had. I must have missed something because he already has THREE $%^& levels in it. Thanks.

[Specktheimp]

I think i'm missing something here. At level 10 he can have only one level of Hellfire Warlock, giving his Hellfire Blast +2d6 damage in addition to 5d6 Eldritch Blast damage. That's actually rather tame imo.

Does he do significantly more damage than the rest of the party? Do the other players miss a lot where he doesn't?
It sounds like the problem is less with the warlock and more with the other players being horribly inefficient.


Lets see with his feats etc. 2 hellfire blasts, chaining. usually 50-70 points of damage to each thing attacked and then it jumps for half damage. The problem is it’s a touch-attack so it never misses(he has yet to roll a one).

[Terazul]

...How is he using two of them? Hellfire (and Eldritch) blast are standard action spell-likes. Unless he's getting multiple actions, he should only be sending out one a round for about 7d6 (average of 24). He could be using Quicken Spell-Like Ability, but even then that'd be three times a day, tops.

Chaining just seems to be use of Eldritch Chain blast shape invocation... But if he was using that, he wouldn't also be able to quicken it; Applying the blast shape makes Eldritch (and Hellfire) blast count as a 4th level spell-like, meaning if he's only level 10 it no longer fits the caster level requirement for Quicken Spell-Like Ability (which is that the affected ability must be [Caster Level/2 - 4] level or lower). Looks like a lot of rules being ignored to me.

Also, there are plenty of ways to have decent touch AC. That being said, 50-70 damage isn't really a ton at level 10 (but if it is compared to the rest of the party, it does become a problem). But that's something else altogether.

[12owlbears]

Aren't their some monsters cr 7-10 with energy resistance. Also spell resistance counts for eldritch blasts so that's one way to stop him

[sleepyphoenixx]

...How is he using two of them? Hellfire (and Eldritch) blast are standard action spell-likes. Unless he's getting multiple actions, he should only be sending out one a round for about 7d6 (average of 24). He could be using Quicken Spell-Like Ability, but even then that'd be three times a day, tops. Chaining just seems to be use of Eldritch Chain blast shape invocation... But if he was using that, he wouldn't also be able to quicken it; Applying the blast shape makes Eldritch (and Hellfire) blast count as a 4th level spell-like, meaning it no longer fits the caster level requirement for Quicken Spell-Like Ability. Looks like a lot of rules being ignored to me.

Also, there are plenty of ways to have decent touch AC.

This. There are certainly ways to get more than one standard action but they usually involve linked Synchronicity cheese or significant investment.
The only way i can see to get more the damage would be Eldritch Glaive but that would rule out chaining (and force him into melee).

The skill requirement for Hellfire Warlock was already mentioned. Since he's using Naberius to negate the Con damage he also has to have at least one level of Binder, reducing damage by another d6.
The 2 chaining blasts per round are almost certainly another rules violation.

A legal build would probably be Warlock 8/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 1, doing 6d6 damage per blast (which isn't exactly awe-inspiring).

[TheDarkSaint]

The quickest and easiest solution I can think of it use Con damage critters against him. Every time he blasts, he loses a point of Con. Something could kill him quite easy if he has 3 encounters in a day and blasts 2-3 times on each of them without some restorations. I'd also make sure to enforce any hit point loss due to Con loss.

Also, if a PC is going to cheese something that, it lets you do it too. Wouldn't it be too bad if the party had to face a rival hellfire warlock who was cheesed out?

[Drogorn]

Sounds like he's doing all sorts of things wrong. Could you post his actual build, and whatever relevant items he has?

[Specktheimp]

...How is he using two of them? Hellfire (and Eldritch) blast are standard action spell-likes. Unless he's getting multiple actions, he should only be sending out one a round for about 7d6 (average of 24). He could be using Quicken Spell-Like Ability, but even then that'd be three times a day, tops.

Chaining just seems to be use of Eldritch Chain blast shape invocation... But if he was using that, he wouldn't also be able to quicken it; Applying the blast shape makes Eldritch (and Hellfire) blast count as a 4th level spell-like, meaning if he's only level 10 it no longer fits the caster level requirement for Quicken Spell-Like Ability (which is that the affected ability must be [Caster Level/2 - 4] level or lower). Looks like a lot of rules being ignored to me.

Also, there are plenty of ways to have decent touch AC. That being said, 50-70 damage isn't really a ton at level 10 (but if it is compared to the rest of the party, it does become a problem). But that's something else altogether.


Great information here thanks. I will have to look closer to see how he’s getting 2 out a round. The problem is it’s Hellfire and there is no energy resistance. UNLESS i read that wrong somewhere...

[Specktheimp]

Aren't their some monsters cr 7-10 with energy resistance. Also spell resistance counts for eldritch blasts so that's one way to stop him

Hellfire overcomes any fire resistance or so i have been told and read... is that incorrect?

[Zanos]

The quickest and easiest solution I can think of it use Con damage critters against him. Every time he blasts, he loses a point of Con. Something could kill him quite easy if he has 3 encounters in a day and blasts 2-3 times on each of them without some restorations. I'd also make sure to enforce any hit point loss due to Con loss.

Also, if a PC is going to cheese something that, it lets you do it too. Wouldn't it be too bad if the party had to face a rival hellfire warlock who was cheesed out?
OP mentioned he's binding naberius, which regenerates ability damage every round, and effectively makes hellfire blasts free.

That said, Hellfire Warlocks played by the rules aren't very op even in parties composed of rogues and fighters, so my gut tells me that the player of this character is cutting corners in more than one way.

As for it being fire damage, the ability is pretty clear on that:

HELLFIRE
Hellfire is the creation of Mephistopheles, archduke of Cania.
Hotter than the hottest flames of any world, hellfire burns with
a white-hot glow and is capable of burning through even the
hardest of substances. Hellfire does not deal fire damage, despite
its flames. Even creatures with immunity or resistance to
fire take full normal damage from these hellish flames. Hellfire
also deals full damage to objects, unlike normal fire damage.

[Terazul]

Hellfire overcomes any fire resistance or so i have been told and read... is that incorrect?

No it's correct. It's basically free damage with no resistances or immunities to it. Spell Resistance is still a thing, though. And yeah, if there were any way to get a copy of his sheet/stats up we could see exactly what he's up to, as right now, just looks like he's taking some liberal interpretations of things; perhaps not intentionally (there have been plenty of times I read something only to come back a day later and realize it's not nearly good as I remembered), but it's happening nonetheless.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Touch attacks can be weakened by using things with miss chances, or who rely on high Dex rather than high armor/NA. But it sounds like your problem is with a player who misread rules*, not the class itself. Echoing the call for his actual build.

*Kindest possible assumption for a stranger.

[Specktheimp]

I’ll attempt to get sheets - but we are old school so everything is handwritten. I did ask him for his level array and feats... And how he is using 2 Eldritch Blasts at once. i REALLY appreciate the help normally i’d just let it go but other people are kind of looking to me for some kind of control.

That all being said. He has flat out lied to me because I threw things at him that had SR and he said it didn’t matter. (My fault for not knowing/stopping everything to look it up lol) In fact I used a Nabassu and that seemed to be a really good match until the SR thing.

What can I do to raise someone’s touch AC?

He worships Asmodeus... anyone knows if there is any bad-blood between Asmodeus and Naberius that I can exploit.

[Terazul]

That all being said. He has flat out lied to me because I threw things at him that had SR and he said it didn’t matter. (My fault for not knowing/stopping everything to look it up lol) In fact I used a Nabassu and that seemed to be a really good match until the SR thing.

Yeah, Eldritch Blast is a Spell-Like Ability:


A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

Bolded for emphasis.



What can I do to raise someone’s touch AC?

He worships Asmodeus... anyone knows if there is any bad-blood between Asmodeus and Naberius that I can exploit.
Mmm. For touch AC there's things like Scintillating Scales; A spell that adds Natural Armor bonus to Touch AC (very useful for lots of creatures if they can get access to it). Also everything except Enhancement, Shield, Armor and Natural Armor bonuses naturally add to it. So it's more finding ways to get Insight or Deflection (or Luck, or Profane/Sacred, etc.) bonuses to it. Here's the first thread that came up when I searched for it, couple tricks in there. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167741)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dodge AC (like from dex) and deflection AC apply to touch attacks. So do most of the "X stat to armor" abilities and most [Force] spells and powers that raise AC.

[Xaktsaroth]

Spell Compendium, pg. 166. - Ray Deflection.

Basically makes you immune to Eldritch Blasts, hellfire or otherwise.

:D

[dethkruzer]

It seems talking to him hasn't been mentioned yet. I'd recommend starting with that. It is just a game, but when the actions of one player means the others are no longer having fun, that's a big no-no.

it also seems he knowingly lied and (possibly) cheated, which really just makes him seem like an @sshole, which is an even bigger no-no.

I'd recommend pulling him aside and talking to him. Tell him the other players are no longer having fun, and that his actions are being disruptive (and not to mention probably against the rules).

[captain fubar]

That all being said. He has flat out lied to me because I threw things at him that had SR and he said it didn’t matter.

there is an elderitch essence that makes the blast SR:no and also changes it to acid damage.

as for the 2 blasts a round baring action economy shenanigans this shouldn't be happening until he can start picking up epic feats.

the hellfire can be used in several ways though. the offensive use takes a stranded action and the retributive use takes an immediate action so if he is just calling them both blasts even though one is labeled shield then this is correct. the retributive version unlike a normal blast offers a ref save for half damage and can only target some one who has just hit him but hits automatically.

the only part of this I can't figure out is the method of early entry into the hellfire warlock prc.

also remember naberus only heals 1 con per turn but each use of a hellfire blast and shield each take a point of con so he should have a net loss of at least 1 con per round if he is making such extensive use of the hellfire warlock abilitys.

also its not a touch attack its a ranged touch attack there are lots of bonuses to AC out there that only work against ranged attacks.

[bekeleven]

there is an elderitch essence that makes the blast SR:no and also changes it to acid damage.Which you can't get until 11th level of invoking - so 12th level assuming a binder dip.

[Psyren]

I never thought I'd see a thread where a warlock was breaking the game, but of course this guy is cheating so I still haven't :smalltongue:

Not only are SR/immunity serious problems, he should also be provoking AoO twice if he tries to blast in melee - once for activating an SLA and once for firing a ranged attack. A nasty bruiser in his face will force him to mix up his tactics quickly.

[Urpriest]

Just to add to all this, Quicken Spell-Like Ability requires Caster Level 10. He can't have it yet anyway.

[bekeleven]

I never thought I'd see a thread where a warlock was breaking the game, but of course this guy is cheating so I still haven't :smalltongue:

Not only are SR/immunity serious problems, he should also be provoking AoO twice if he tries to blast in melee - once for activating an SLA and once for firing a ranged attack. A nasty bruiser in his face will force him to mix up his tactics quickly.

If I recall correctly, you can only provoke one AoO for an action. However, he would have to cast defensively and run arrow mind to avoid doing so. Is this correct?

[Psyren]

If I recall correctly, you can only provoke one AoO for an action.

No, you can provoke multiple AoOs with one action (e.g. moving past three enemies without tumbling lets all three of them take a swipe at you.) For a lone enemy, they would need Combat Reflexes to take advantage of both of your provocations though.


However, he would have to cast defensively and run arrow mind to avoid doing so. Is this correct?

I don't remember the text of arrow mind offhand but I'm guessing yes.

[Kane0]

A hellfire warlock is not the hardest thing to combat. They are usually built to be good at dealing damage (this one isnt even a glaive/clawlock i believe?) so make an encounter or two that does not rely on HP damage to overcome. Spell resistance and touch AC are also good starting points.

Warlocks have neat tricks up their sleeves but only so many. Go through the list of invocations and read the Warlock handbook, you will quickly pick up the rough capabilities of one and be able to respond accordingly.

Information is ammunition.

[Vaynor]

I understand that he's probably twisting the rules a bit, but be careful not to go too far in the other direction and make an enemy that directly counters his character just to show him up. Use realistic interpretations of the rules and the problem should take care of itself.

[Psyren]

Agreed with Vaynor - and now that you know the proper rules, simply using enemies with SR (or acid resistance if he is relying on that invocation to bypass) and now that you know the damage he should be doing, should be enough to challenge him appropriately without making it seem like you're going after him directly.

[Sam K]

I’ll attempt to get sheets - but we are old school so everything is handwritten. I did ask him for his level array and feats... And how he is using 2 Eldritch Blasts at once. i REALLY appreciate the help normally i’d just let it go but other people are kind of looking to me for some kind of control.

That all being said. He has flat out lied to me because I threw things at him that had SR and he said it didn’t matter. (My fault for not knowing/stopping everything to look it up lol) In fact I used a Nabassu and that seemed to be a really good match until the SR thing.

What can I do to raise someone’s touch AC?

He worships Asmodeus... anyone knows if there is any bad-blood between Asmodeus and Naberius that I can exploit.

I realize this advice may be a tad controversial, but as a DM, you really need to own the character sheets. If you have to ASK a player about what feats they have, you will have a very hard time designing appropriate encounters. And when you have players who may be taking... err... "creative approaches" to rules interpretations, you need to make sure you have time to go over those in your own time. Having to make snap decisions on allowing feat combinations you may not be familiar with opens the door for all kinds of balance issues.

That's not even mentioning the risk of "creative editing" of character sheets.

Obviously, players should be allowed to have a copy as well - they need to be familiar with the character, and (if they want to) plan out how to develop the build. But the DMs copy should always have priority for that campaign.

[OldTrees1]

Something else to note:
The warlock is dependent on ranged touch attacks.

Dexterous enemies have higher touch ACs than Strong enemies while still having the same normal AC. (so the change does not affect the other players)

A lesser armor crystal of arrow deflection gives you +5 AC vs all ranged attacks.

Puttting these together should raise the ranged touch AC by something like +8. This will make the warlock miss 40% more often.

[nedz]

You shouldn't need to run counters for a Warlock but then this seems like the rules are being ignored.

In case you did want a defence, then miss chances are fairly good. An enemy with Mirror Images should slow him down.

[Incorrect]

Cover (+4 / +8 AC, and bonus to Reflex)
Tower shield for total cover
Minions with readied actions to jump in front of ray
Spell casters with readied actions to dispel the invocation
Visibility/concealment - invisibility, magical and mundane fogs, darkness, blindness
Spell resistance
Blur, mirror image, scintillating scales and ray deflection

Don't use all of them at once though, it's just a game :)
Or, use all of them all at once just to prove a point, and make him bored.

Remind me, what is the downside to binding Naberius? Does the player meet all the requirements and expectations?


The most effective help would be for the both of you to understand the rules in use. Let us assume that neither of you knew better, and that no one tried to cheat. Ask him to please read up on his rules, and tell him that you will do the same. Then, afterwards, have a talk about how the rules work. It sounds like terms like Standard Actions and Spell-like Abilities should be read again as well :)

[Wacky89]

Item Familiar Feat would allow him to put double ranks in Knowledge the Planes. Which allows for him to enter at level 4 or 5 (if he has stored enough skill points, each extra rank requires 2 skill points)

[Heliomance]

Item Familiar Feat would allow him to put double ranks in Knowledge the Planes. Which allows for him to enter at level 4 or 5 (if he has stored enough skill points, each extra rank requires 2 skill points)

Pretty certain they don't actually count as ranks for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.

[Terazul]

Pretty certain they don't actually count as ranks for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.

Correct. You get some +1 bonus (untyped) to spread around, but not skill points/ranks. It always surprises me when sometimes I run into someone and they think the total bonus to the skill means rank. :smallconfused:

[Hunter Noventa]

SR will be a good thing to slow him down, because even if he takes the Vitriolic Blast (Converts it to acid, ignores SR), I don't THINK you can combine it with the Hellfire blast, I'm not sure.

But really, talking to the person and telling him he's ruining it for everyone else seems like a better idea.

[Caedes]

I agree with many of the posters in this thread. Seems like this build may be a bit questionable. It would be nice to see what his build is or what build on the internet he is basing this off of.

That being said. I have had the experience of dealing with many a min/maxed char that seemed to make the rest of the party irrelevant.

IMHO, it is ok to offer the player a choice. To either make a change to his/her character, to bring him/her in more closer to the power of the campaign and party. Or, to allow him/her to retire that char and roll up a new one. (Make the option to retire a good one. Make the retired PC an NPC that your player can control for RP reasons. You can make the head of a guild or some such.)

Remember ultimately the game you are running is yours. And if there is a factor that is removing the fun, you can change and alter that factor. Even if it is a PC that is causing the trouble.

:D

[jedipilot24]

If all else fails, house rule that Hellfire causes ability burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm), so the Naberius trick doesn't work. But allow him to rebuild.

[Drogorn]

If all else fails, house rule that Hellfire causes ability burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm), so the Naberius trick doesn't work. But allow him to rebuild.

That's a silly solution. Without the rules being broken, hellfire warlock isn't overpowered.

[Big Fau]

Incorporeal enemies also are a counter for Eldritch Blast. There's no EE that turns the Eldritch Blast into a Force effect, so Incorporeal enemies are still a threat to a Warlock. Incorporeal enemies with Spell Resistance will make life tough on him.

[sleepyphoenixx]

As long as the character is actually rules legal there is little reason to specifically tailor encounters to counter him.
I'd imagine he'll have enough trouble keeping up once the DM makes him rebuild his character according to the rules if his game plan consists of "throw Eldritch Blasts" instead of actually using some of the more useful abilities Warlocks bring to the table.

If he still outshines the party after adjusting the character the party would probably be better served by bringing the other characters up to par instead of tailoring the enemies to the warlock.
Not min-maxing is one thing but going completely in the other direction is just as bad imo.
It's not like warlocks are terribly overpowered after all (as long as they are played by the rules).

[MadGreenSon]

The problem here is that the Warlock is flat out breaking the rules.

I mean, c'mon. The warlock in my 7th-8th level game is the party accountant, not the one who makes everyone look bad! :smallbiggrin:

[Daer]

if setting rules right doesn't help then monks with spell reflection (acf replaces evasion), if he misses (and with high dex and i think wis ac also counts it is more likely to happen) they can reflect it back
perhaps using this before setting rules right helps give him a lesson :)

[Zetapup]

Remind me, what is the downside to binding Naberius? Does the player meet all the requirements and expectations?

Let's see... The player's almost definitely meeting the requirements (a few ranks in a knowledge skill or bluff), but the influence might be a bigger deal. Anytime he's presented with something designed for a speaker (eg, a pulpit, a talking stick, etc), he has to speak about something and shout down anyone else trying to take control of the conversation. It's only 1 round though, so it might not have too much of an effect.

I'd suggest talking to the player and figuring out if their character is playing by the rules. If it turns out that it somehow is (not sure how they're in hellfire warlock so soon plus the multiple standard actions thing), ask them to tone it down because the other players aren't having as much fun. I wouldn't suggest tailoring encounters specifically to fight him because the player is likely to realize that you are doing that and get annoyed. Talk first, then go from there.

[bekeleven]

Let's see... The player's almost definitely meeting the requirements (a few ranks in a knowledge skill or bluff), but the influence might be a bigger deal. Anytime he's presented with something designed for a speaker (eg, a pulpit, a talking stick, etc), he has to speak about something and shout down anyone else trying to take control of the conversation. It's only 1 round though, so it might not have too much of an effect.

I'd suggest talking to the player and figuring out if their character is playing by the rules. If it turns out that it somehow is (not sure how they're in hellfire warlock so soon plus the multiple standard actions thing), ask them to tone it down because the other players aren't having as much fun. I wouldn't suggest tailoring encounters specifically to fight him because the player is likely to realize that you are doing that and get annoyed. Talk first, then go from there.

I think it's a reasonable but not certain conclusion that the player was acting in bad faith. Sounds like a few too many convenient rules errors. Just SR, just HFW EQ, just iterative blasts... all of them paints a different picture than any of them.

[MadGreenSon]

I think it's a reasonable but not certain conclusion that the player was acting in bad faith. Sounds like a few too many convenient rules errors. Just SR, just HFW EQ, just iterative blasts... all of them paints a different picture than any of them.

Ok. Let's call a spade a spade here. It's not like this is a brand new game system or anything or that PrC requirements aren't spelled out (even if they are sometimes insane).

He's Cheating.

Badly.

Obviously.

Cheating.

And it's ruining the fun for his group. That is the real problem. If there's rules fudging that makes a game more fun, go for it. But this guy is screwing up the fun for everyone else.

It has to stop. Now.

So the question is: how to get him to stop it without hysterics? (I'm assuming that it's possible, what's the player in question's maturity level?)