[D&D 3.5] How to -not- get betrayed

[Magikeeper]

A few days ago a thread about betraying the party (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223514) sprung up, and there was some debate on whether or not that is a good thing. Debating that issue further is not the purpose of this thread - let's assume betrayal is on the table.

How can one protect themselves from being betrayed? In some of the more cloak-and-dagger games even just letting an information leak live/have a free soul can doom the party.

Issues:

1) You have to scrutinize EVERY party member to be sure. This puts practical limits on what you can do - not every group is going to sign up for periodic strip searches, mindraping, having your simulacrums follow them around everywhere, etc.

2) In most groups it assumed, IMO, that you will at least try a little to accommodate other players' PC ideas. Demanding the new guy's PC have whatever extremely specific traits / backstory would make him trustworthy to you is unlikely to fly. Very much so if betrayal is not common in your group.

2.5) In some groups the players are more likely to try a lot to accommodate other/new players. They all came to play, after all. Having a foil spices up gameplay. This makes it very hard to survive someone playing a PC out to secretively gut the party - again, we are assuming the DM is still allowing traitor PCs regardless of whether it is a good idea for hir group or not.

Any other issues?

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Some Solutions:

Any Level:
1) Check up on any backstory claims. Make sure the hometown exists. Make sure your 'buddy' actually lived there.
2) Become a triple agent. Pump the enemy for information on who else is on the take.
3) Create a fake antagonist group. Secretly make offers to each of your allies that are tailored to them and see who stays honest. This will likely work only once and can backfire horribly... but you might be able to convince a pre-established group to do it to every new guy. Still hurts trust...
4) Have additional back up plans /connections you don't reveal to the rest of the party. Keep some spells in reserve, have some NPCs you sweet-talked into having your back, etc. This can make you rather suspicious.


Low Levels:
1) Party members might not notice you reading their surface thoughts.. but this involves will saves and can get very messy.
2) Be a light sleeper. Carefully follow any odd tracks you see.
3) Psycrystal spying.


Mid Levels:
1) Cast Enduring Scrutiny (Level 3 divination spell from complete mage). Long-lasting, easy to customize, not unreasonable to ask players subject themselves to it, etc. However, it can be dispelled and suppressed without you knowing about it.
2) Telepathy Tap can help prevent leaks, but early access to mind blank stops it. Also has a short duration and deals str damage to you.
3) Mind Probe can be done secretively.. maybe... depends on group.


High Levels:
1) Secretly create Ice Assassins and them mindrape the assassins to learn what they know. This can be fooled, and it also relies on Ice Assassin not being banned.
2) Actually convince your party to accept your telepathically linked simulacrums basically becoming their shadow. Market them as personal servants or something. I've had a player somehow convince the rest of his party to go along with this so I guess it deserves a mention.


More suggestions would be very welcome!

[hymer]

How can one protect themselves from being betrayed?

Well, betray them before they can betray you. In extremis, kill everyone the first chance you get. Dead people have a harder time betraying you, especially at low levels. This will also net you some decent XP and items, making it easier for you to overpower the next batch of weirdos.

[Slipperychicken]

How can one protect themselves from being betrayed?

Leave the game, chances are it's more trouble than it's worth. Or play Paranoia and at least have fun while being betrayed.

[Snowbluff]

Well, betray them before they can betray you. In extremis, kill everyone the first chance you get. Dead people have a harder time betraying you, especially at low levels. This will also net you some decent XP and items, making it easier for you to overpower the next batch of weirdos.
Seconding this. Aboleth Mucus is your friend.

[Grollub]

If you suspect a betrayal type scenario coming, or in its midsts, there are aa few things to protect yourself.. depending how far you want to go...\

1) kill the offender... simply put, get them before they can get you. It can suck if you are wrong, or it intiates constant 'grudge' matches.. but best defense is a good offense.

2) get allies on your side. whether it's other players, constructs, undead, minions, etc.. the more of you in a group there are opposing said betrayer... he'll have to come up with more plans to handle you ALL at once. which leads to...

3) try not to wander off alone, or with the betrayer alone... stay in a group.. the more of you all together at once, the better off you are, and more protected.

4) if you have the power to, mindrape ( attitude adjustment ) , mind scanning ( to determine true intentions/ plans ) etc.. basically information gathering.

and finally..

5) have an OOC discussion with the person running said betrayer, and simply explain how its not cool it is to run a character against the party. Not only is it just plain dumb to give the DM ammunition to kill you all, but its like the DM it taking sides to do so.

[Alefiend]

Play solo games. Read some Choose Your Own Adventure novels.

[sleepyphoenixx]

First point if you want to play in a game where betrayal is on the table: Learn to seperate player knowledge from character knowledge.
Unless your characters grew up together you don't know anything about someones backstory unless he tells you.
Detect Evil and similar stuff usually doesn't work either since most games that accept or encourage inter-party backstabbing usually have at least one evil character by default (or everyone is chaotic neutral :P).

Otherwise, just take some contingencies that make sense. Say your character is a paranoid bastard, it's not unreasonable to trap your belongings (mundane, magic or both).
Keep a few spells in reserve instead of blowing everything and relying on your party to protect you.
Keep some of your abilities to yourself. Nothing throws of an ambush faster than an ability the attacker didn't plan for. (This includes keeping your build/charsheet between you and the DM since a lot of people can't help metagaming)
Get some good oneshot items as an ace up your sleeve if things go south.
Get some way to gather information on your "allies" (and protect yourself from them getting information on you).

Most important, make it clear BEFORE the game that this kind of thing is acceptable and that everyone can keep it "in character".
Few things destroy a gaming group faster than someone taking a game betrayal personally and holding a grudge over multiple characters/campaigns. You will find yourself looking for a new player (or group) quickly if you don't get everyone on the same page before the game.

Playing a game of untrustworthy scoundrels that only work together as long as it suits them (and leave with everything they can get their grubby mitts on afterwards) can be a lot of fun, if it's done right.
That doesn't excuse being a **** and destroying the other players fun (the cliché CN "but it's in character!!" guy comes to mind).

[Magikeeper]

Hrm, lets assume the players(s) don't want to leave the game and they themselves don't want to play a backstabber. Maybe the DM leaves it as an open option in all of his games that is usually not taken.

Sometimes you know who is likely to be a traitor OOC, sometimes you don't.

A lot of the basic ideas are easy (info gathering, etc), but actually putting them into practice without angering the actually honest members of the group can be tricky.

To be more specific, what specific techniques can you easily add to your gameplay in a there-is-probably-not-a-back-stabber-but-we-aren't-100%-sure situation to guard your back?


Off-topic:

For those wondering about my own positions on this issue I wouldn't let a secret backstabber do things that would utterly condemn the entire party, so this level of paranoia isn't really needed in my games. I had a guy orchestrate a chain of events that led to random themed mercs and assassins coming after the group every now and then, but the party knew it was him and they felt they sorta deserved it for some earlier pranks. Not to mention he sometimes had to deal with the mercs too. :P

The DM running the campaign I've played in for a few years, however, does support it. The rest of our group was very much against truly screwing over the party so it never came up, but coming this summer we're going to be having some turn over. I might not know a couple of the new players, who are friends of the DM and play in more betrayal-friendly games. Our party could not survive information leaks; it would be trivial to condemn us.

Thankfully we have IC reasons to suddenly be much more suspicious than we were 17 levels ago.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Easiest thing is to keep a way to escape handy. Most classes can benefit from one of the tactical teleportation items even if they don't have the spells themselves.
Couple that with a scroll of Teleport or something similar and you're pretty safe, especially if you keep quiet about it.

[Miss Disaster]

There's a fairly simple alternative solution that involves using legal game mechanics to assist a core contingent of party members who are concerned about betrayal issues. Behold:

Enduring Scrutiny

Sorc/Wiz/Pal/Bard/Assassin - 3rd Level Spell - Complete Mage

This spell is legal for Chain Spell metamagics, too. It's a No-Save, Yes-SR spell. And anyone joining the core party of trustworthy members would have to automatically drop their SR and allow for the spell to activate (its duration is 1 Day/CL). If that person won't do it, then you've got a huge RED FLAG waving high above that potential party-mate. Address accordingly after that. :smallannoyed:

The "particular action" clause of the spell needs very precise wording in order to accomodate the party's concern for betrayal actions. But it shouldn't be too hard.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You'd need to cast that a lot to cover even the most rudimentary stuff. And it can still be circumvented by Dispel Magic or simply conducting the betrayal in an Antimagic Field.
If you use it to cover more immediate concerns (when x attacks a party member) you're probably already in the trap. Escape and regroup is probably the best thing to do in that case.

[Captnq]

Cortical Mind Bombs.

There are many variants of this. Find some Horrible Death effect you can remotely activate. Implant it in them. Trigger it when they threaten you.

Good example: Become the party armorer. Install wand chambers in every hilt. Fill them with aboleth goo. Craft contingency, "If I die, this kills the next person who wields it."

That sort of thing. Get creative.

[Miss Disaster]

It's pretty cheap though. 3rd level spell. Can be reasonable bought or made into a Wand, Eternal Wand or Schema for repeated long-term use.

The "particular action" clause can be as simple as "targeted individual willfully engages-in or commits-to plotting an action that results in physical, emotional, or financial harm to Sir Falko, Lady Coyle, her raven familiar and myself.

If that trigger happens immediately upon casting, you know you've got a traitor in your midst.

[Magikeeper]

Enduring Scrutiny: Ooh, this is nice. Something like "Speaks with a known servant of the evil empire" or "steals from a member of this group" could be useful if those are legal choices. Or what was just posted above. Or all of the above! That said, the ability to dispel/suppress it does become an increasingly large liability later on. Also doesn't stop vecna-blooded - but that is rather obscure.


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Setting up your party members for remote detonation is likely to anger them when they find out. I mean, you can then rule through fear. But at that point you've become the guy stepping on everyone else's game plans.

Not to mention that creating a dead man's switch means you are now the glowing weak point of the team. Kill Paranoia Man and watch the whole team die from his horrible contingencies! He's the load-bearing boss!

[sleepyphoenixx]

The "particular action" clause can be as simple as "targeted individual willfully engages-in or commits-to plotting an action that results in physical, emotional, or financial harm to Sir Falko, Lady Coyle, her raven familiar and myself.

If that trigger happens immediately upon casting, you know you've got a traitor in your midst.

Plotting something isn't an action. The spell doesn't read minds. And while english isn't my first language i'm fairly sure that a broad condition like "something that results in harm to x,y,z" doesn't fit into the definition of "a particular action".

"Steals from a member of the party" on the other hand is a good use of the spell imo, either as a precaution ("we're watching you, so toe the line") or to catch him in the act if you can get it on the suspected individual without him noticing.

[Miss Disaster]

Plotting something isn't an action. The spell doesn't read minds. And while english isn't my first language i'm fairly sure that a broad condition like "something that results in harm to x,y,z" doesn't fit into the definition of "a particular action".

"Steals from a member of the party" on the other hand is a good use of the spell imo, either as a precaution ("we're watching you, so toe the line") or to catch him in the act if you can get it on the suspected individual without him noticing.I recommend that you re-read what I wrote and quote my text properly instead of loosely.

I didn't say "plotting something". I specifically stated "targeted individual willfully engages-in or commits-to plotting an action that results in physical, emotional, or financial harm to Sir Falko, Lady Coyle, her raven familiar and myself". There's a huge difference here because it is leaning-to-specific compared to your above comment which implies generalities. And it also is delineating a specific moment in time where an action is committed. You are wrong in saying that my quote doesn't fit the parameters of being a specific action when it actually does within the parsed text and has a toggle moment where the triggering criteria can switch from one state to the other. Especially since the word "action" is actually used within the triggering criteria that the spell requires.

EDIT: Fixed typo.

[TuggyNE]

To be more specific, what specific techniques can you easily add to your gameplay in a there-is-probably-not-a-back-stabber-but-we-aren't-100%-sure situation to guard your back?

One thing to consider is that, in practice, there is no 100% certainty of anything. So what you really want is a set of techniques to raise the barrier to betrayal enough to make it a relatively insignificant threat (without significantly increasing your vulnerability to other threats, as the kill switch plan tends to), and then just hope you don't need to enact those contingencies.

The easiest of these is almost certainly to keep a set of spells and tactics in reserve that only the DM is aware of and that can generally shut down a lot of simple betrayals; for example, in an actual ECL 7 PbP game a few years back, I played a pixie who burned his 1/day permanent image on creating an illusion of himself sleeping in a tree… while actually sleeping somewhere nearby close enough to keep an eye on the illusion.

[veti]

One of my first 'adult' (AD&D 1e) campaigns was in a large (10 player, I think) 1st-level party (we all stayed 1st level for at least ten sessions), wandering a countryside that was mysteriously deserted, with all kinds of weird intra-party - interaction going on. Everyone's character sheet was private, kept between themselves and the DM, who passed more private notes than a Paranoia player. My character - actually my second, after the first suffered a lonely mishap - was a cleric/illusionist, who kept the 'illusionist' part carefully secret and relied on 'cleric' to make himself too useful to kill.

It was as a cleric that I discovered that our LG ranger had a raging split personality. That accounted for one set of randomness. But I never realised that the "dwarven fighter" was in fact an assassin who, for reasons I still don't know to this day, would occasionally kill people in the night.

It was an eye-opening experience. It was my first exposure to the concept that "a party" isn't a cohesive, well ordered unit, but a bunch of very different people with different, possibly conflicting, goals (and problems, hangups, issues) who just happen to be stuck with each other for some reason. And it was at least two orders of magnitude more fun than any previous campaign I'd been in.

With that in mind, I suggest: put down the dice, the character sheets, and the books.

Then, talk to the other players. Discuss their characters' backstories, plans and motivations. Get to know them. And share as much of your own backstory as you feel like (or make up something completely new, your call, but bear in mind they'll be making the same decision and judgments about you).

Over the next session or two, you'll get to observe them in action. You can see whether their actions are consistent with what they've said, and the opinions you've formed from talking to them.

Then decide how far you're willing to trust them. Decide which PCs you trust to stand watch, which you trust with the keys to the vault, and which one(s) you don't want to be alone with.

Occasionally you'll make a mistake. Someone will be so good at lying, or you'll be so bad at reading the signs, that you won't spot it until too late. That's human, it's all part of the fun. But most of the time, you'll be fine.

Now, obviously, 3.5 gives you a whole range of options (spells, skills) that you can use in place of your fallible human judgment. Why rely on guesswork when you can be sure? And that would be a beguiling argument, but for the fact that that 'sureness' is an illusion. The same ruleset that gives you 'Sense Motive', also gives the other guy 'Bluff'. The 'Enduring Scrutiny' spell is really just an invite to rules-lawyering, of which there's a sample in the thread above here, but trust me it's not yet scratched the surface of what would open up if you relied on it in real life (in a PvP context). And the high-level options are just plain silly, because by that point what are you doing joining an adventuring party anyway? - you should already know, by reputation at least, everyone in the world who's qualified to work with you.

So put it all away. Forget the dice, forget the rules, drop the skills - those are for use on NPCs only. Make up your own mind.