[3.5] Building a level 25 epic character

[Triskavanski]

I've got to build a level 25 character for a game this saturday.

So far the information I have is that we'll be on a pirate ship ran by a player's Dread Pirate. There is also a Monk, a necromancer (I think cleric) and some more clerics.

In the world there is only 10 dragons, and half-breeds are taboo (so forbidden :( )

Direct melee combat seems pretty take care of. Magic item creation and being a mother bucking sorcerer isn't. (Or wizard or warlock.)

The DM is somewhat open to things.. Possibly If I make a good argument for it, even if I can't play my favorite race, Lupin.

So basically how should I go about making this guy? I've never made anything past 12.

Oh, we have a stat array to begin with of 15, 14, 13,12, 10, 8

[Triskavanski]

Ideas I've gotten so far..


Battle Sorcerer + Master of the Unseen Hand - Specs in the the use of a ring of Telekinesis to bash enemies to itty bitty bits. Could also be an artificer instead, possibly, to make the crafting so much easier and be able to enchant the weapons. If is a sorc, also uses whirling blade and a few others.

"God" wizard - I don't have the PrCs this guy would use if any. He's not a god because he can deal with everything, he's a god wizard because he creates his own race and plane and the like. Looking for more rules on how to create your own world.

Warlock - No PrCs on this guy yet either. Just 25 levels of pure warlock badassery, using the web supplement

[bekeleven]

The optimization level of play in 3.5 epic ranges from microbes to playing the sun. Any thoughts on where you're shooting?

[Triskavanski]

Well, I don't want to exactly play the sun, at least not constantly.


I'm kinda shooting for the God Wizard right now, cause if he was to die, I'd have put stuff into play to play a race that isn't human. However I fear the DM might remove all the fun options I'm trying to use that ultimately make me a weaker caster, kinda forcing me into being power all mighty mcpower pants.

Basically, I don't want to be so weak that the party ignores me as being unuseful, and don't want to be so powerful I can take down nations with a wave of my hand while reading the morning news and eating my crumpet


Something else I've seen is the Geomancer. Initially I thought this class was the worst class ever to be made, but I just realized I could use my wizard caster level to cast the cleric spells. Granted I wouldn't have access to higher level cleric stuff, but I could do that.

[icefractal]

Creating your own plane is pretty straightforward - Genesis (9th level spell) will do it, although you'll probably need a number of castings to reach a decent size.

Creating your own race - you'll need Epic Spellcasting for that. The DC is likely to be rather high, but remember that you can drop that (all the way to zero, if desired) through mitigating factors, especially making it a ritual and having all your minions contribute spell slots.


As for PrCs - There are a number which are just generally useful for any Wizard (IotSFV is always great for survivability). I can't think of many specifically suited for this, although:
* Dweomerkeeper - Supernatural Spell is useful for spells with expensive components. For example, instead of spending lots of XP to cast Genesis, use Supernatural Spell -> Wish -> Scroll of Genesis, for free (well, a 9th level slot, but no XP).
* Cosmic Descryer - Don't know if it's worth it, mainly because you have to take a really crappy Epic feat. Gate all day can be useful for moving your minions around though. And (although you can't get it by 25th level), Cosmic Connection can be used to achieve ridiculous power.

Note: Since Practiced Spellcaster exists, and spells/day stops at 20th, you can lose up to 4 caster levels before any actual loss of power.

Note 2: If ToB is being used, picking up a single level of something can be highly useful. For example, if you take one level of Warblade at a high-enough level (17th), you can grab Iron Heart Surge (end any condition), White Raven Tactics (extra turn), and Iron Heart Focus (reroll a save), plus Int to Reflex saves.

[Triskavanski]

So, if I could lose up to four levels of a spellcasting class before really suffering any effects.. Does that mean I could make something like a mystic thegue without any real problems?

[georgie_leech]

So, if I could lose up to four levels of a spellcasting class before really suffering any effects.. Does that mean I could make something like a mystic thegue without any real problems?

To an extent. It bears noting though that after level 20, when you can take levels of Epic Mystic Theurge, DON'T. It's strictly worse than just alternating levels in existing classes.

[icefractal]

Yes, and in fact that could be useful for getting more Epic spells. For example, you could do something like:
Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 9

If you want to combine Wizard and Cleric, it would be harder to get them both to 9th level spells, but still possible with a little work:
Wizard 1/Cleric 4/Dweomerkeeper 10/Mystic Theurge 10

Allocate the casting from Dweomerkeeper so that you end up with one at 17 and one at 18, so 9th level spells in both, and CL 21 / 22 with Practiced Spellcaster.

You can get a lot stronger if you use early entry tricks; whether you should depends on how optimized the rest of the party is.

[Triskavanski]

Would that be similar for other blending classes like Geomancer, Arcane Trickster, Ultimate Magus and so on?

If I did do Mystic Thugue, What I'd like to be able to do is cast nature magic without the druidic beliefs getting in the way as a way of increasing my power over various rhelms of nature. (Like creating my own races and magics)

Mostly I'd focus in doing Wizardy Stuff, but would like to cover some of the areas I don't have.

With 10 levels of Geomancer, I should be able to cast all the divine spells using my wizard level and such.

EDIT:

Where is the dwemenor class?

And I don't know how optimized they are. Unfortunately, I only hear tales of how their characters have been playing.

[Snowbluff]

Sounds like you want me to rub one of my builds that you don't want to see me rubbing.

MartialWizard6/Swiftblade9/Spelldancer1/AbjurantChampion4.

Tack of 5 levels of crap, I guess. Maybe finish the Swiftblade for Swift-Action Time Stop.

You can probably pull some of that Priya the Prismatic sort of shenanigans by learning Miracle and casting Twin Absorption.

[icefractal]

I just realized what would be a good fit - Archivist. Int-based divine caster? Check. Masters druidic spells without druidic oaths? Check.

So, some kind of Wizard/Archivist/MT/Whatever combination.

[Triskavanski]

I just realized what would be a good fit - Archivist. Int-based divine caster? Check. Masters druidic spells without druidic oaths? Check.

So, some kind of Wizard/Archivist/MT/Whatever combination.

Yes! That brilliant.

I'd only have a handful of spells I couldn't ever cast really. But it achieves the goals of being able to create my demiplane, race and gear, rising up to a god-like status.

Right now, I see myself taking 3 wiz, 3 archivist, 10 MT...after that I don't really know I do know I want to be an epic level wizard at least though. I don't know why MT is strictly worse than alternating between the two classes. Oh wait, nevermind. MT just starts alternating between the two after 10. Which is increasingly disappointing.

I am also thinking of taking Forge Ring + Extra Rings so I can have a total for four rings at a time, before taking extra magic item feats

[One Step Two]

There's a few different means to achieve God-like powers, with 25 levels to play with, it's easier than you might think.

My Favourite is, Grey Elf Wizard Generalist 5/Incantatrix 10/Abjurant Champion 1/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Epic Incantatrix 2
Ban Enchantment when going into Incantatrix, it's a lacking school, and is stopped cold by Mindblank.

The build is feat intensive admittedly, but you get some very nice perks out of it all.

Abjurant Champion (Complete mage) is the partial Icing on the cake, and rounding out to all 5 levels isn't terrible in the long run, more HP is more HP, but at epic, you're playing games of rocket-tag more often than not, we want it for the free extend on Abjurations.

Incantatrix (Players Guide to Faerun) is pure Metamagic love. Enhance your allies spells, along with your own, give your self day-long durations on buffs that are normally not meant to last more than a few rounds, just make sure you get a custom magic item to give you a +20 competence bonus to spellcraft.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (Complete Arcane) is awesome. Your ability to throw up a reactive ward to stop.... everything means your back is covered, especially considering you have a 24 hour Foresight spell thanks to Incantatrix :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

The guy above me is posting an incantatar build after my Swiftdancer build. Keep in mind Incant has a hard limit on your use of extra MM.

Swiftbalde: Double Standard actions, pure (Ex) Haste, Miss Chance, movement speed, and Freedom of Movement. *gushes*


I am also thinking of taking Forge Ring + Extra Rings so I can have a total for four rings at a time, before taking extra magic item feats

Huge mistake. Take you spiked gauntlet, which you have. Arms and Equipment Guide. Ringsword. Deconstruct it and add it to:

Your spiked dastana
your poison rings x10
your spiked gauntles x2

There, 13 more ring slots.

[One Step Two]

The guy above me is posting an incantatar build after my Swiftdancer build. Keep in mind Incant has a hard limit on your use of extra MM.

Swiftbalde: Double Standard actions, pure (Ex) Haste, Miss Chance, movement speed, and Freedom of Movement. *gushes*


Huge mistake. Take you spiked gauntlet, which you have. Arms and Equipment Guide. Ringsword. Deconstruct it and add it to:

Your spiked dastana
your poison rings x10
your spiked gauntles x2

There, 13 more ring slots.

Wait, 4000gp to turn an item into a ring holding item? That's pretty awesome, but I think that will earn a DMG to the face.

[Snowbluff]

Wait, 4000gp to turn an item into a ring holding item? That's pretty awesome, but I think that will earn a DMG to the face.

Pfft, no. After that, you have 2 bucklers. Empyreal and regular for Saves and AC. Poison Rings are +5 Defending. A couple are Blingsighted, Warning, and all are Spellblades. Then the book gets thrown at you.

[Triskavanski]

I'm trying to figure out how that even works..

[Snowbluff]

I'm trying to figure out how that even works..

It's simple. You have rings on your rings (that are weapons, not Rings), so that you can have bling on your bling. Extra item slots are a huge waste. You can also pay 50% more to alter the slot or add an item to another.

[Triskavanski]

Oh its in the dragon compendium. A book that is already not allowed sadly. Otherwise I'd be Lupin. Since I can't play lupin due to it being in that book and half breeds not being allowed in the game, The goal of the god-wizard is to make that race and all sorts of other anthropomorphic races, along with the various half-breed races inside his demiplane.

Anyone can be 'unbeatable' but it takes a lot of work to get a religion based on you.

[One Step Two]

It's simple. You have rings on your rings (that are weapons, not Rings), so that you can have bling on your bling. Extra item slots are a huge waste. You can also pay 50% more to alter the slot or add an item to another.

So it becomes a question of weather adding an additional effect to an existing ring is less than around 6300gp. (As you need a +1 weapon at the minimum to add the "Ring" Property.) Cute, but off topic, let's stick to builds :smallbiggrin:

[Tevesh]

Poison Rings are Rings that do 1 point of damage. I think they're Simple Proficiency? The point is, you can put 10 on your hands.

Ringsword is an item that let's you put a Ring on a Weapon Slot. Kind of like the Gems from MIC for Armor and Weapons.

There's a rule to deconstruct and rebuild nonmagical items into other nonmagical items. This I have no idea where it is.

So, you deconstruct a Ringsword into a Poison Ring. You do this 9 more times so you have 10 Ringsword Poison Rings. That means you can put a Magic Ring on each of your Fingers.

Also, there's a Hand of Glory item that gives you a Ring Slot on your Throat in addition to other magical abilities.

The lesson to take here is you don't spend Feats on things you can buy.

[Triskavanski]

Well I can't buy the deconstruct stuff at all until that deconstruct rule is found. I can't use the dragon compendium.

Using the hand of glory (where ever that is located) would also eat up my neck slot. I want more slots, hence the whole reason for even thinking of taking extra rings. Not to go around and use up all my available slots for more expensive rings.

[Snowbluff]

Well I can't buy the deconstruct stuff at all until that deconstruct rule is found. I can't use the dragon compendium.

Using the hand of glory (where ever that is located) would also eat up my neck slot. I want more slots, hence the whole reason for even thinking of taking extra rings. Not to go around and use up all my available slots for more expensive rings.
Magic Item Compendium. The use of the rule is well-documented. Start with page 232.

[bekeleven]

Magic Item Compendium. The use of the rule is well-documented. Start with page 232.

Note however, that it does not cover Extrapolated Weapon Special Abilities (abilities found only on unique weapons) because (among other reasons) their pricing is ambiguous. It's never clear how much of their price is in equivalent +enhancement bonuses and how much is in cash.

Many people use them - Captnq's guides have a section on EWSAs - but they're not RAW legal to my knowledge.

[Snowbluff]

Note however, that it does not cover Extrapolated Weapon Special Abilities (abilities found only on unique weapons) because (among other reasons) their pricing is ambiguous. It's never clear how much of their price is in equivalent +enhancement bonuses and how much is in cash.

Many people use them - Captnq's guides have a section on EWSAs - but they're not RAW legal to my knowledge.

It should be safe to cut up the Hand for more ring slots, though.

[Kazyan]

I could say "you dawg, I heard you like rings, so we put some rings in your rings", but it turns out that's actually RAW legal now.

[Triskavanski]

Anycase.. With doing a MC wizard, Familiars are pretty useless. And Archivist has scribe scroll already. Is there anything out there that replaces those two abilities for wizards? Preferably not in a dragon magazine

EDIT:

I think I found one. Wizard of the Sun and Moon to replace my familiar. How exactly would this work? Is it one slot gets split? Can I cast both spells in one day/night cycle? Or is it all slots can be split, and I use each slot only once?

[Windstorm]

Item familiar from Unearthed arcana can be fun. If your DM is squeamish about the bonus xp, fluff it as an item creation pool a la artificer, or just scrub that part. It does carry several significant risks depending on how much you choose to invest in it, but it also allows you to modify the item without having the appropriate item creation feats (biff had a post around somewhere about creating mega-staves with it)

Another option if you're going for control wizard is the arcane hierophant (races of the wild) all the fun of a wizard and a Druid in one package.

[bekeleven]

Anycase.. With doing a MC wizard, Familiars are pretty useless. And Archivist has scribe scroll already. Is there anything out there that replaces those two abilities for wizards? Preferably not in a dragon magazine

EDIT:

I think I found one. Wizard of the Sun and Moon to replace my familiar. How exactly would this work? Is it one slot gets split? Can I cast both spells in one day/night cycle? Or is it all slots can be split, and I use each slot only once?
Sun and Moon is not very good IMO.

Check Specialist Wizard Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm) in UA/SRD. Depending on school you get nice items for your familiar, feat, or bonus spells. Conjurer is well thought-of if you like summoning. See Also: Immediate Magic from PHB2 which also requires specialization. Immediate Magic: Conjurer gives Abrupt Jaunt. If you're not building a summoner, but like conjuration, this is your go. A few others aren't terrible but AJ is the best.

You can also exchange Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) like improved init.

...As long as I'm linking SRD stuff, if you're not specializing, be a Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard).

Racial: Elves and Gnomes have some fun sub levels. Elves give up school specialization, Gnomes take a CL hit with 1 school and require illusion spec.

[Triskavanski]

The problem is, unless I can unban those schools, I really don't want to be a specialist wizard. And those special specialists require you to stick to wizard to really gets its effect.

Why is Sun and Moon not good?

[bekeleven]

Sun+Moon gives up a familiar (A powerful resource) in order to make a single spell slot situational. And not even situational by choice - if you're not underground you can't cast your moon spell and vice versa. It gives no additional power and the versatility is double-edged, don't waste time bookkeeping, you have enough slots to prepare both spells you like.

Most special powers don't scale on wizard level. Most conjurer ones at least, the ones I know best.

Banning schools is much easier on a multicaster since you'll have a second spell list. But if you don't want to, trade specialization for Domain Wizard, trade your feat for a fighter feat. There aren't many good familiar trades for generalist wizards, sadly. You can make it frost or drakken I guess, or trade for a crappy animal companion.

Note that if you stay in wizard for 5 levels you can trade your 5th level feat for stuff. This is the only reason to stay in wizard 5 levels, especially as a theurge. Spontaneous Divination and Domain Granted Power are extremely good abilities.

[Triskavanski]

I don't really view the familiar a powerful resource when its only got 3 levels of wizard in it. I see it more as a powerful weakness. alleviated a bit in pathfinder though.

A one slot, two spells. Sounds like a bad adult movie.


Well I might have a second list of spells, but those are only divine spells. I know there is some overlap on Wizard/Divine, but I need more.

[bekeleven]

A lot of the familiar's abilities scale with yours. At 3rd level it has scaling HP, Saves, the ability to wield wands, the ability to deliver touch spells, and the ability to share spells.

That means in a fight your familiar can either be wanding for extra actions, or you cast shapechange next to it and you get two zodars for the price of one. Even polymorph is enough for it to be an asset.

[Triskavanski]

But its tied to my Wizard level isn't it? Not my actually spellcasting level, but the level I've spent in wizard.

Which would be 3. In a game, were everyone is level 25+. and its tied to my soul, to make it so I suffer permanent loss of ability every time it dies, from 300 to 600 exp loss. Not much, but I think scrolls of light would be more useful at this point.

Right now, I'm looking at

3 levels Archivist + 3 levels Wizard +10 levels MT.

That leaves me with 4 normal level, and 5 epic levels to spend.

Possible ideas
Effigy Master, I lose one more spell casting level, reaching the max I'm willing to lose, but gain the ability to build effigies.
FateSpinner, I lose that level again here too, but get all sorts of abilities to manipulate fate and dice rolls
Geometer, I gain better word based magic
Wildmage - I get really crazy like with my spell

Geomancer - I slowly drift into animal forms, but gain the ability to use one of the two casters as my primary. Like I could cast a spell from Archivist as if it was cast by a level 25 character rather than 13.

Unseen Seer - More skill points, powerful diviations

Magical Trickster - gain tricks i can do with magic, hit the max spell

Paragon Apostle - gain super knowledge abilities. a bit iffy on the group I'd need to join though.

[Triskavanski]

Second issue.. After getting level 3 in both the base classes I'm going PRCs all the way. Meaning I have to scribe every single spell I want later on.

In pathfinder this is a blessed spellbook that allows me to scribe without spending materials. Is there something in 3.5 like that?

EDIT: Good news, the DM is allowing me to use Caster level in place of wizard level to determine Familiar's abilities. So, I'm dropping Sun and Moon, now that I'm not bringing a commoner with me.

[bekeleven]

Read this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook). That's why the SRD is there.

[Triskavanski]

Read this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook). That's why the SRD is there.

Well on the first part, I have read it. Twas class level till my DM said otherwise. Cause that would have made the familiar only have like an ac of 12. Second part, don't I feel stupid now. The thing that is exactly what I want is exactly here. Picking one one for each class at the very least, if not more.

[bekeleven]

So let me get this straight.

The familiar gets your HD, half your HP, your BAB, your base saves, your skill ranks, and the ability to share any buff spells you cast. And your contention is that +8 NA is the difference between liability and boon?

What's your AC? Is it that far past 14 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm) naked? How about polymorphed into a war troll, with Greater Luminous Armor, persisted stat buffs, and persisted sirene's grace?

Once you get that far from your native form, your AC is pretty high... but your familiar's will be 2 higher. Because of the +2 Natural armor it gets for being owned by a 3rd level wizard.

[tzar1990]

You could go for (Fixed-List Caster) 15 / Rainbow Servant 10.

Even at the least generous reading of Rainbow Servant (the text says 10/10 casting, the table says 6/10), you'll have level 9 spells, and the ability to spontaneously cast any spell off the Cleric spell list.

If your DM decides that text trumps table, then you get even more fun tricks to play with. You could go something like Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Incantrix 8/Swordsage 1.

Of course, the issue with Rainbow Servant is that you won't have as many spells per day as a real Theurge would - although I'd argue that being able to spontaneously cast off the entire cleric list more than makes up for that.

[Triskavanski]

So let me get this straight.

The familiar gets your HD, half your HP, your BAB, your base saves, your skill ranks, and the ability to share any buff spells you cast. And your contention is that +8 NA is the difference between liability and boon?

What's your AC? Is it that far past 14 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm) naked? How about polymorphed into a war troll, with Greater Luminous Armor, persisted stat buffs, and persisted sirene's grace?

Once you get that far from your native form, your AC is pretty high... but your familiar's will be 2 higher. Because of the +2 Natural armor it gets for being owned by a 3rd level wizard.

Actually, there is also the SR (Which would be 30 at this level), the ability to Scry, speak with master, speak with other animals of its kind, the familiar spells and the like.

Plus the ability to upgrade the familiar via improved familiar. Pretty much all we did was save me a feat actually, so I don't have to go try picking it back up with Obtain Familiar so its level is up to mine.

Remember as well that Sharespells only works, if the familiar is within 5 feet of me at all times. that distance extends past that mark, he loses the spell.

[Dorian Gray]

Aw, I was just about to mention the warsnake. Although I would refine it- if you are on a ship, you could argue that sanctum spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcerers--51/sanctum-spell--2508/) could be rooted to said boat. That, plus heighten spell and, say, versitile spellcaster (or signature spell) means you can cast 3rd level spells at level 1. Throw on 10 levels of rainbow servant to get the free cleric casting. Incantrix after that, which brings you to level 21. If you really want to have fun, you could go beguiler 1/cleric 1/mystic theurge 1/rainbow servant 10/incantrix 10/something else 3, but I have no idea if that would actually work. (I hope not).

Or, you could just go wizard 1/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10/ruby knight vindicator 7/incantrix 5, and see how many spells you can throw out in one round. Twin quickened greater arcane fusion is a swift action, folks! Yeah, you need high charisma, but that's what nightsticks are for anyway, and what were you going to do with that 8th level spell slot anyway? Polar ray?

[Triskavanski]

My newest version..

alternate between 3 levels Wizard and 3 levels Archivist, pick up practiced spellcaster on the wizard side
1 level of geomancer to increase wizard
1 level of Wildrunner for trackless step
10 levels of Arcane Hierophant
7 levels geomancer increasing wizard again.

That would put me at a caster level of 25 for wizard. Geomancer would let me switch out the Archivists caster level with the wizards instead, up to level 7 spells. Which guess what.. thats what I can cast ^^

I'd either take Arcane Hierophant or Mystic Theuge the next few levels to increase both of them until I can cast 8th level archivist spells, then another level of geomancer. Keep alternating like this until I've got everything from both wizard and archivist.

Possibly, if the DM allows it, go into fleshwarper after that, or perhaps something else, never losing any more levels of wizard's spell caster level.

and since I don't want to be an elf, reincarnate after getting it.

[Triskavanski]

Ted the Mage (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=823388)

This is what I have so far for the character's stats and skills.

The DM is letting my Familiar = Caster level
Class and Crossclass ranks = 1 for 1 each, like pathfinder. just no +3 bonus