Paladin Changes

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So, I hate the original paladin. Worthless vs anything but evil (granted, you should be fighting evil a lot) and being party police. So I came up with a few changes, and I wondered what you guys thought of them.

Lose detect evil

Smite evil becomes smite anything. Also instead of adding char for "to hit" and level to damage, I thought that, for one round, any attacks successfully made against a designated target in that round, after declaring that you will smite it, take an additional 1d6 of damage. The damage increases by 1d6 every 3 levels. (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19)

Alignment becomes any good, and you only fall if you become non-good.

Lay on hands becomes wisdom based. Divine grace also uses wisdom.

Turn undead becomes channel positive energy (as pathfinder cleric)

Special mount becomes augmented weapon. (please tell me that's not already a thing) Which is (or at least it is now) a paladin designates a weapon (or weapons if the paladin chooses to go along the twf route, so long as they are the same) as their augmented weapon . So long as said weapon is being wielded by the paladin, it has +1 to all attack and damage rolls for every 5 paladin levels the character possesses.

Spells are drawn from the cleric spell list (only up to 4th level, no cantrips, same rules apply for not using spells of opposed alignments) and are learned as sorcerer learns spells. They do not need to be prepared ahead of time

Anyway what do you guys think? Do you like it? Do you hate it? What do you think I should change? And as always, go nuts.

[toapat]

Lose detect evil

Technically the ability is needed to make paladin function at all,


Smite evil becomes smite anything. Also instead of adding char for "to hit" and level to damage, I thought that, for one round, any attacks successfully made against a designated target in that round, after declaring that you will smite it, take an additional 1d6 of damage. The damage increases by 1d6 every 3 levels. (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19)

Utterly ruins Paladin. Smite is, Natively and virtually uncontested at it, the strongest damage amplifier in the game. There are other problems but those will be covered under spell list. You also are only frontloading a tiny bit of damage with this change while removing the ability for said damage to crit.


Alignment becomes any good, and you only fall if you become non-good.

SOP


Lay on hands becomes wisdom based. Divine grace also uses wisdom.

Doesnt fit the flavor of paladin. Wisdom is judgement as based on your knowledge, experience, and careful consideration. Paladin is about believing in yourself, the power of Good, and the absolute belief that evil must be destroyed, Hence why their mechanics are charisma based in all editions.


Turn undead becomes channel positive energy (as pathfinder cleric)

Massively hurts paladin, expecially because the channel energy feats in PF are horrifically weak compared to the Divine Feats in 3.5


Special mount becomes augmented weapon. (please tell me that's not already a thing) Which is (or at least it is now) a paladin designates a weapon (or weapons if the paladin chooses to go along the twf route, so long as they are the same) as their augmented weapon . So long as said weapon is being wielded by the paladin, it has +1 to all attack and damage rolls for every 5 paladin levels the character possesses.

Horrible. +5 weapons are very weak (expecially when they have no bonus damage dice), and default paladin can create a +7 weapon for what is realistically as long as they need it starting at level 14. This doesnt outperform Paladin, Sword of Celestia either.


Spells are drawn from the cleric spell list (only up to 4th level, no cantrips, same rules apply for not using spells of opposed alignments) and are learned as sorcerer learns spells. They do not need to be prepared ahead of time

Ruins paladin. You lose access to every single spell designed for them, and everything they normally get early access to is only seen well beyond too late to matter. one such spell, Divine Sacrifice, provides the same benefits as your version of Smite would provide (10d6 bonus damage) at level 31, except that Divine sacrifice is a 1st level spell for paladin. Rhino Rush, Glory of the Martyr are also gone. You do gain access to a small set of spells paladin doesnt have but that do not make up for loosing what are the some of the strongest combat abilities in the game.

Here is some manditory reading for looking at paladin (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html)

[Seerow]

1) Why change smite evil to +Xd6? Also your change doesn't change the fact that you can only use it a pitiful number of times per day, even with you extending it from one attack to one round, it's still pretty weak.

2) If you're already comfortable enough with Pathfinder to use features from it, why aren't you just using the PF Paladin, which is actually a pretty decent class?

3) Any reason for changing Cha stuff to Wis, instead of Wis stuff to Cha? Personally I prefer Cha based Paladins, both for Tradition and Turn Undead synergy. (Divine/Devotion feats are some of the most awesome things for a Paladin IMO).

4) Your augmented weapon feature is right around on par with a 3rd level spell. The horse is generally going to be better. If you want to give the Paladin an awesome magical sword, give it a real progression. If you want to be lazy with it, make that progression something like the Kensai.

5) How many spells known does the Paladin get if he gets them as a sorcerer? Does the Paladin still get Paladin spells that weren't on the cleric list? What about spells that come on the Paladin list earlier than the Cleric?

Why not just let them spontaneously cast from the entire Paladin Spell list (Beguiler/Dread Necro style)? Give them Battle Blessing as a free bonus feat, and those spells are suddenly really really useful.



Edit: Ninjas, ninjas everywhere!

[Teapot Salty]

Utterly ruins Paladin. Smite is, Natively and virtually uncontested at it, the strongest damage amplifier in the game. There are other problems but those will be covered under spell list. You also are only frontloading a tiny bit of damage with this change while removing the ability for said damage to crit.

I fail to see why exchanging damage for versatility is so bad, and the fact that you can make multiple smites in a round seems to balance it out.




1) Why change smite evil to +Xd6? Also your change doesn't change the fact that you can only use it a pitiful number of times per day, even with you extending it from one attack to one round, it's still pretty weak.

2) If you're already comfortable enough with Pathfinder to use features from it, why aren't you just using the PF Paladin, which is actually a pretty decent class?

3) Any reason for changing Cha stuff to Wis, instead of Wis stuff to Cha? Personally I prefer Cha based Paladins, both for Tradition and Turn Undead synergy. (Divine/Devotion feats are some of the most awesome things for a Paladin IMO).

4) Your augmented weapon feature is right around on par with a 3rd level spell. The horse is generally going to be better. If you want to give the Paladin an awesome magical sword, give it a real progression. If you want to be lazy with it, make that progression something like the Kensai.

5) How many spells known does the Paladin get if he gets them as a sorcerer? Does the Paladin still get Paladin spells that weren't on the cleric list? What about spells that come on the Paladin list earlier than the Cleric?

Why not just let them spontaneously cast from the entire Paladin Spell list (Beguiler/Dread Necro style)? Give them Battle Blessing as a free bonus feat, and those spells are suddenly really really useful.


1)Honestly because when I was thinking about it, that's how I thought smite worked. And after I learned, it seemed like a reasonable trade off for the buffs I gave it. But I might just use the original and make it smite anything.

2) I'm only comfortable with some parts of pathfinder, other parts I'm completely clueless with. Also my dm plays 3.5

3) Flavor, I don't like char very much and it makes the paladin less stat straining.

4)You raise a good point, what about progressing every 2 levels thereafter?

5) He learns them as a sorcerer does, that is to say, he learns them through level up, not quite sure about the spells known per level yet, but I will.

[toapat]

I fail to see why exchanging damage for versatility is so bad, and the fact that you can make multiple smites in a round seems to balance it out.

because when your smite is letting you deal +3d6 twice (6d6 averages to 21 damage), my smite is giving me +21 damage, with potential to deal 63 if the lance crits. Oh, and im still getting +10d6 because i have this sweet spell called Divine Sacrifice


1)Edit: Ninjas, ninjas everywhere!

its kinda a law that i call out bad changes for paladin first


Edit: Look through the paladin Homebrew in both Seerow and my extended signatures, it kinda seems like there should be a massive post here somewhere that says "Read, then Write"

[Teapot Salty]

because when your smite is letting you deal +3d6 twice (6d6 averages to 21 damage), my smite is giving me +21 damage, with potential to deal 63 if the lance crits. Oh, and im still getting +10d6 because i have this sweet spell called Divine Sacrifice

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you have to be level 21 to do +21 damage on a smite?

[toapat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you have to be level 21 to do +21 damage on a smite?

Charging Smite does triple paladin level.

you should read that manditory reading i left above, theres a reason i leave that on almost all paladin brew i disagree with

[Seerow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you have to be level 21 to do +21 damage on a smite?

Yeah, should only be +20.

On the other hand if he was making a Paladin charger (he mentioned a lance), Spirited Charge would boost that to a +40 damage smite. The crit is now +120 damage. And if you go with the Charging Smite variant (which trades out the mount) those values triple to +60 (normal charge)/+120(Spirited Charge)/+360(Spirited Charge Crit).

Edit: Toapat: I think the confusion was your reference to 6d6. I didn't catch you meant 3d6 twice right away, and was thinking you were referring to a max level paladin as well. Either way, the numbers are in favor of the charging smite paladin, but the Xd6 doesn't compare too poorly with a regular paladin, which I assume is what he was comparing to. Especially since you get the Cha mod to hit on all attacks.


Edit2:

1)Honestly because when I was thinking about it, that's how I thought smite worked. And after I learned, it seemed like a reasonable trade off for the buffs I gave it. But I might just use the original and make it smite anything.

Honestly I'd go so far as Smite anything and increase frequency of usage. Make it last a whole encounter like Pathfinder. Make it usable X/encounter instead of X/day. In my fix I had it go off Turn Undead uses, and you could sacrifice spells to refresh it if desired. Really only being able to do your big thing 1-5 times a day sucks in any game where you do more than 1 encounter a day. Imagine a Barbarian who only raged for 5 encounters per day!


2) I'm only comfortable with some parts of pathfinder, other parts I'm completely clueless with. Also my dm plays 3.5

Still might be worth considering just checking out the PF Paladin. Or other peoples' homebrew. (As Toapat noted, we both have Paladin homebrews. T.G. Oskar also has a great Paladin homebrew, and there's a few other good ones floating around as well.)


3) Flavor, I don't like char very much and it makes the paladin less stat straining.

At least change Channel Energy to Wis based instead of Cha as well then. Reducing MAD is good. But seriously, the Paladin is like 90% cha and 10% wisdom, and reversing that seems really awkward.


4)You raise a good point, what about progressing every 2 levels thereafter?

I'd stick with the +1 hit/damage every 4 levels, but also give some special weapon properties, eventually giving you basically a free holy avenger with whatever other properties you're willing to pay for.

Mind you, the mount is still probably better, but at least that way you're not getting outclassed by a 3rd level spell.


5) He learns them as a sorcerer does, that is to say, he learns them through level up, not quite sure about the spells known per level yet, but I will.

Lazy way to do it: Duskblade/Psiwar progression. Gain one new spell known every level.

Also you didn't answer about Paladin specific spells. Those Paladin only spells are a pretty big deal, a lot of them are pretty nice.

[Teapot Salty]

Also you didn't answer about Paladin specific spells. Those Paladin only spells are a pretty big deal, a lot of them are pretty nice.
True, but since many of them are "only vs evil" stuff, and that's what I'm trying to abolish, and It's a lot quicker and easier to say "cleric spells, as long as their good" instead of so they lose these and gain these never mind, that sounded dumb writing it, your right, I think I'll just replace the "only vs law or chaos" spells with other stuff.

EDIT: I think I might make either everything is wisdom or everything is cha. And by everything, I mean everything, smite, spells, lay on hands, channel etc.
Also I think Toapat was referring to level 7 each.

[toapat]

True, but since many of them are "only vs evil" stuff, and that's what I'm trying to abolish, and It's a lot quicker and easier to say "cleric spells, as long as their good" instead of so they lose these and gain these never mind, that sounded dumb writing it, your right, I think I'll just replace the "only vs law or chaos" spells with other stuff.

Actually i can only name Two paladin exclusive spell that are largely irrelevant vs non evil: Holy Sword and Silverbeard. and Holy Sword is quite solid.


Also I think Toapat was referring to level 7 each.

yes, 3d6 twice for 6d6 was referring to level 7.

you should probably look at Seerow's paladin, Grod the Giant's, then mine. Mine probably is outside of reasonable for your needs of a class, as its built around the handbook i linked by Dictum Mortuum.

[Teapot Salty]

Actually i can only name Two paladin exclusive spell that are largely irrelevant vs non evil: Holy Sword and Silverbeard. and Holy Sword is quite solid.

Really? Crap. Also, since you'll probably reply faster than I can read, the charging thing, is that core or no?

EDIT: I just looked over the list, and only a handful are evil/chaos specific, for the record I did mean only evil targeting, not evil irrelevant.

[toapat]

Really? Crap. Also, since you'll probably reply faster than I can read, the charging thing, is that core or no?

PHB2.


also, here is a link to Grod's paladin (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12150015)

[Teapot Salty]

also, here is a link to Grod's paladin (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12150015)

I like the "wait 1d4 rounds" that's cool.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Lose detect evil

Smite evil becomes smite anything. Also instead of adding char for "to hit" and level to damage, I thought that, for one round, any attacks successfully made against a designated target in that round, after declaring that you will smite it, take an additional 1d6 of damage. The damage increases by 1d6 every 3 levels. (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19)
The lack of the specifically-evil flavor hurts, I think, but fluff is a matter of personal preference, so no biggie there. Now, looking at the damage... at, oh, 11th level, you're doing +4d6 damage/attack for one round. With 2 attacks, that's an average of +28 damage, or +56 if we're TWFing. (Which we're probably not, due to feat constraints and MADness). Which is a pretty decent bonus, I suppose.

Now, compare to a 11th level barbarian, with his shiny new Greater Rage. +6 Strength, dumping the extra attack into a power attack with a two-handed weapon, is giving us +9 damage/attack-- +18 damage with your normal two attacks. Behind, yes... but rage lasts for an entire encounter.

So, in conclusion: your full-round smite is too weak.


Special mount becomes augmented weapon. (please tell me that's not already a thing) Which is (or at least it is now) a paladin designates a weapon (or weapons if the paladin chooses to go along the twf route, so long as they are the same) as their augmented weapon . So long as said weapon is being wielded by the paladin, it has +1 to all attack and damage rolls for every 5 paladin levels the character possesses.
That's a pretty slow progression. Why not crank it up to a +1 enhancement bonus/2 levels, starting at 4th, with the ability to dump extra enhancement bonus into special enhancements, like flaming? At the very least, make it count as Good-aligned from level 1, and Holy at mid-levels.


Spells are drawn from the cleric spell list (only up to 4th level, no cantrips, same rules apply for not using spells of opposed alignments) and are learned as sorcerer learns spells. They do not need to be prepared ahead of time
Mmm. Spontaneous casting is good, and the expanded list access is... well, as others have noted, there's some good, and there's some bad, as you lose paladin spells that were written/adjusted to be more level-appropraite. At the very least, you should change their caster level to paladin level-3, instead of level/2.

[Teapot Salty]

The lack of the specifically-evil flavor hurts, I think, but fluff is a matter of personal preference, so no biggie there. Now, looking at the damage... at, oh, 11th level, you're doing +4d6 damage/attack for one round. With 2 attacks, that's an average of +28 damage, or +56 if we're TWFing. (Which we're probably not, due to feat constraints and MADness). Which is a pretty decent bonus, I suppose.

Now, compare to a 11th level barbarian, with his shiny new Greater Rage. +6 Strength, dumping the extra attack into a power attack with a two-handed weapon, is giving us +9 damage/attack-- +18 damage with your normal two attacks. Behind, yes... but rage lasts for an entire encounter.

So, in conclusion: your full-round smite is too weak.


That's a pretty slow progression. Why not crank it up to a +1 enhancement bonus/2 levels, starting at 4th, with the ability to dump extra enhancement bonus into special enhancements, like flaming? At the very least, make it count as Good-aligned from level 1, and Holy at mid-levels.


Mmm. Spontaneous casting is good, and the expanded list access is... well, as others have noted, there's some good, and there's some bad, as you lose paladin spells that were written/adjusted to be more level-appropraite. At the very least, you should change their caster level to paladin level-3, instead of level/2.

I might take your smite rules of 1d4 rounds in, instead of per day stuff. I like your Ideas for the enhancements. And I'm trying to figure out what you mean by level/2

[toapat]

I might take your smite rules of 1d4 rounds in, instead of per day stuff. I like your Ideas for the enhancements. And I'm trying to figure out what you mean by level/2

its a shorthand for the fact that paladins innately in 3.5 only gain +1 CL every even level.

also, ive been pointing at different homebrews of paladin because there probably is one you can just pick up wholecloth and play.

[Teapot Salty]

its a shorthand for the fact that paladins innately in 3.5 only gain +1 CL every even level.

also, ive been pointing at different homebrews of paladin because there probably is one you can just pick up wholecloth and play.
Ohhhhhh, that actually makes sense now. Do you know of any homebrews that do any good alignment smite anything?

[toapat]

Ohhhhhh, that actually makes sense now. Do you know of any homebrews that do any good alignment smite anything?

off the top of my head, the only paladin homebrew i can name that does such is Jiriku's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187700), a class resultant from a combination of the Knight and Paladin classes. However i do not advise using that one as its what id call an Advanced users homebrew, and requires the player either have access to a Generous DM, or Dragonlance: War of the Twins to use due to high necessity of Wisdom, Charisma, Strength, and Constitution.

[Seerow]

Ohhhhhh, that actually makes sense now. Do you know of any homebrews that do any good alignment smite anything?

Here a homebrew feat to make your problem go away:

Moral High Ground
Prerequisites: Paladin Level 1, Smite Evil class ability
Benefit: You are assured of your righteousness, and know that your actions are justified. Your alignment may now be Any Good, and your Smite Evil will affect any creature actively attempting to harm you or your allies, regardless of their alignment.

[Teapot Salty]

Here a homebrew feat to make your problem go away:

Moral High Ground
Prerequisites: Paladin Level 1, Smite Evil class ability
Benefit: You are assured of your righteousness, and know that your actions are justified. Your alignment may now be Any Good, and your Smite Evil will affect any creature actively attempting to harm you or your allies, regardless of their alignment.
If we go into that level of simplicity though (which I probably should have done from the first place) I should probably just ask my dm for smite everything and maybe a couple other things in exchange for detect evil.

[toapat]

God why do i still have the original homebrew bookmarked, it was terrible and i regret what i said in it. (Applogy aimed at Grod and TGOskar) (I owe a few people a few appologies)

Anyway, here are TGOskars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193554), Seerow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12590485&postcount=1), and my (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14104896&postcount=1) latest paladin homebrew

The rest of this post will now be dedicated to logic:

A Paladin is supposed to be the one who most serves the powers of good, and those powers are not supposed to be exploited for the paladin's benefit. it really shouldnt feel like you need Smite Foe, and Detect Evil should be recognized as something to be used responsibly and not as a bandaid. If you dont want it you can deign to use it entirely, but the ability isnt so strong that it should be allowed to be substituted either for anything stronger then something similar, like Detect Magic.

[Realms of Chaos]

I've noticed that the paladin is right up there with the fighter in terms of difficulty to fix, though for entirely different reasons.

Looking at the 3.5 paladin as it is in the PHB, it sucks. It is a wheezing skeleton of a class that quickly sickens and dies after level 3 or so.

If you try to fix it, however, you have to know your stuff VERY well or else you will end up competing with every single piece of official material from the entire run of 3rd edition that was aimed at doing the same thing. To date, I don't think I've seen anyone win that competition.

THINGS YOU (APPARENTLY) CANNOT CHANGE ABOUT THE PALADIN:

The smite cannot deal less damage. Period. Not for versatility. Not for extra certainty. Not for anything (except maybe access to higher-level spells, and even that risks violating flavor). Well-built paladins rely on multiplying that smite damage by almost x20. All must be cognizant that each -1 damage penalty is actually a -18 damage penalty.
The smite must remain "smite evil" and retain its same progression over levels. As much of the versatility in paladin builds comes from ACFs and racial substitution levels, so the names and progressions of your abilities have to remain identical or else you cut off options.
You cannot sacrifice the special mount or place it at any other level. See the above for why this is the case (that is the one feature that is traded for all of the best ACFs).
You can't get rid of turn undead. It's used to power a whole bunch of useful stuff.
By all that is holy, you cannot remove the spells (even if you think that paladins are more "holy warrior"). Not even maneuvers can replace the benefits of those specialized spells from the paladin list.


You could give more skills and lighter restrictions (both common moves) but there's not much else you can change as most of the other class features don't really need fixing (aura of courage, divine grace, lay on hands, disease immunity).

You can add stuff, certainly, and fill in those dead levels without problem. Changing what already exists, however, often seems to result in nerfing the class instead of "fixing it"... at least from all that I've heard. I'm going off of what I've heard on random boards in the past (and what I say above is at least partially tongue-in-cheek).

With that said, I do think that it's odd that it's only really pointed out about this class. Tons of fighter classes get made and I honestly can't ever remember anyone ever saying that changing the feat rate ruins the class because dungeoncrasher can't be used. Hell, people generally don't discuss ACFs or racial substitution levels when approving how well a fighter fix has done... at least from all that I've seen.

For that matter, I haven't seen complaints of that kind about fixing the monk, either. And I feel that I've seen at least some barbarian fixes without fast movement at level one without there being complaints of pounce being lost. Why are these things included in paladin discussions? Is the paladin the only class that got actual decent support? Are other classes so much worse that most alterations do better than all of what 3.5 offered? Are people just that passionate about their paladins? It really makes one wonder.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hey guys. So, I hate the original paladin. Worthless vs anything but evil (granted, you should be fighting evil a lot) and being party police.

*vein about to pop, face turning red*


So I came up with a few changes, and I wondered what you guys thought of them.

...Oh. Alright.


Lose detect evil

If you're gonna lose an at-will ability, try to replace it with something good. Never just drop it. Think of all the ways arcane spellcasters can get free Detect Magic at-will, which is worse than Detect Evil because it picks up all kinds of magic auras. At least one is a feat that requires you to be at 9th level, off the top of my mind.

Harmonious Knight is a great example of the replacement; you lose Detect Evil, you gain Inspire Courage, though it doesn't advance. Think on those lines.


Smite evil becomes smite anything. Also instead of adding char for "to hit" and level to damage, I thought that, for one round, any attacks successfully made against a designated target in that round, after declaring that you will smite it, take an additional 1d6 of damage. The damage increases by 1d6 every 3 levels. (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19)

So, basically, a hybrid between PF's "Smite" (which isn't really a smite, but a MARK), and extra damage but no Cha to attack. The benefit of the old smite (fixed damage, therefore multiplied on a critical or any attack that multiplies damage) is replaced by variable damage. At 1st level you deal 3 points of damage on average (2 over the vanilla Paladin), at 4th level you deal 7 (3 over vanilla Paladin), at 7th level you deal 10-11 points (3-4 over vanilla Paladin), at 10th level you deal 14 (4 over vanilla Paladin)...if you notice the trend, you'll end up doing an average of 5-6 points of damage over the classic Paladin's Smite. Had you made it 2+level, +1 for every six class levels, you'd have approached the same method and kept it fixed, thus worthwhile on a critical hit. In that regard, it's better than the PF Paladin's smite...for 1 round.

This, of course, is not good. The first thing is that you drop Cha to attack rolls, so your subsequent attacks won't hit as effectively. If you can't hit your second attack, rest assured you won't hit the third or fourth attack, and therefore your smite will be only moderately better, but still worth one attack. The bonus to attack is more important than you give it credit, even if you're not a fan of Charisma (as I saw you mentioning). The extra damage is good, but not by a good margin unless you're extremely lucky with the rolls, in which case...you deal 22 points of damage on that hit over the base Paladin. If the Paladin simply charged and smote, using the Charging Smite class feature, the damage would be only 2 points higher. Rhino's Rush? Your attack just lost its steam. Happens to be a crit? Your attack won't compare.

IMO, if you're trying to make it resemble the Paladin's smite, and intend to keep it per-day, make it as the PF version does and change it to a Mark. Otherwise, your best bet will be, no matter what, to change it to a per-encounter version, because it's the only way you can smite efficiently.


Alignment becomes any good, and you only fall if you become non-good.

Eh. Some sacred cows can be grilled into a +5 holy filet mignon of deliciousness. No biggie. No code either, so it passes to the realm of RP.


Lay on hands becomes wisdom based. Divine grace also uses wisdom.

Umm...it seems you'd like to see Serenity. You'd do well to have your DM approve of Serenity. In fact, since you're dropping Detect Evil...why not make an ACF where you replace Detect Evil with Serenity? You lose your ability to automagically detect evil, but since you'll have huge Wisdom bonuses, Sense Motive picks that up for you.


Turn undead becomes channel positive energy (as pathfinder cleric)

Uh...whatever. Turn undead pretty much behaves like Channel Divinity (let's face it; Pathfinder probably stole that from 4e), allowing you to activate Divine Feats. Strangely enough...how odd that you didn't turn Lay on Hands into its PF version. The amount healed by LoH is not that great, esp. if you spread it out between uses. LoH is best as "burst healing", usable when you need it the most. Also, the PF version of LoH allows it to use it on yourself as a swift action.


Special mount becomes augmented weapon. (please tell me that's not already a thing) Which is (or at least it is now) a paladin designates a weapon (or weapons if the paladin chooses to go along the twf route, so long as they are the same) as their augmented weapon . So long as said weapon is being wielded by the paladin, it has +1 to all attack and damage rolls for every 5 paladin levels the character possesses.

...Odd. You've used most things from PF. Why not use Divine Bond? It's exactly what you're mentioning, and it allows you to add special qualities for free, but you summon the weapon instead of having it always on hand. Use the PF's weapon bond as a basis, and make it so that it affects any weapon you wield.


Spells are drawn from the cleric spell list (only up to 4th level, no cantrips, same rules apply for not using spells of opposed alignments) and are learned as sorcerer learns spells. They do not need to be prepared ahead of time.

Hmm...sorta like what I did. Therefore, that makes me the most indicated to help you with.

The first, and most important thing, is that you do not remove the Paladin's unique spells. Toapat and I might have distinct visions on what a Paladin should be, but we agree wholeheartedly on this one: the Paladin's spells, the few unique ones they get, are awesome. You're not in love with the mount, so Heal Mount might not seem that wonderful, but think about this. Glory of the Martyr is Shield Other but applying to everyone, and has an awesome kicker. Holy Sword allows you to have a mini-Holy Avenger at all moments, lacking only the SR and the Greater Dispel Magic at-will effect (it still retains Magic Circle against Evil, so...). Righteous Aura grants a decent bonus to Charisma (sacred, so it stacks!), but it delivers a massive healing effect and a massive damage burst...at the cost of your life and being turned to ashes, so beware. Bless Weapon, even if it's a mere 1st level spell, allows automatic critical hits. Lawful Sword is to chaotic creatures what Holy Sword is to evil creatures. Sacred Haven makes your LoH affect allies in range, and adds a nice buff to boot. Favor of the Martyr adds a whole bunch of nifty immunities, particularly immunity to non-lethal damage: you're only one step from complete, ABSOLUTE, immunity to damage if you get regeneration. Diamondsteel is also a Sorc/Wiz spell, but it's decent on a Paladin because it helps you when wearing heavy metallic armor (DR is always decent, and the more the merrier).

But perhaps that doesn't convince you. How about the spells that are reduced in level? If you intend to do what you intend to...you can kiss Break Enchantment, Dispel Chaos, Dispel Evil and Mark of Justice good-bye, because they're 5th level Cleric spells. Not enough? Greater Magic Weapon and Discern Lies now compete with all other 4th level spells that you'll have to access carefully. How carefully, you ask? Well, you'll probably get three known spells per level, four at most. Just at 4th level, you may want to have Death Ward (why the hell not?), Air Walk (the only way a Paladin will be capable of fighting in the air without having an item granting it flight), Freedom of Movement, Divine Power...that's four spells, right? You'll be hard-pressed for choices, which is best for experienced people than for newbies.

Note how everyone mentioned in this page dealt with the spell situation. jiriku went for prepared spellcasting up to 6th level; Seerow went with the classic (but with a much higher DC); Toapat went with prepared spellcasting and increased spell list (adding Sorcerer and FvS spells) but kept 4th level; Grod went for fixed-list spontaneous spellcasting, and I went for 4th level spontaneous spellcasting with hybrid list (Cleric spellcasting + Paladin spells + some Bard spells) and arranging the order of some spells. Each of us addressed the situation differently, but twinked directly with the spell list because of the diamonds in the rough. All but jiriku went the Charisma route; all but Toapat gave Paladin spellcasting from 1st level (but even she decided to boost Paladin's caster level to something other than half your Paladin class level); only Seerow granted 1st level spells straight from 1st level and not from 4th level. If anything, that should tell you that a simple "fix" for the Paladin's spell list isn't exactly the most elegant solution, particularly if you don't keep the good spells.

That reminds me: arrangement of spells. Paladins could make absolutely great use of certain spells: Righteous Might, for example, or Holy Smite (also Chaos Hammer and Order's Wrath), or Disrupting Weapon, or even Blade Barrier. Some other spells are gained hilariously late: Dispel Magic by 10th level already past its prime, and Greater Dispel Magic is a 6th level spell so a Paladin will never have access to it. How about Heal? Why wait for 4th level to use Air Walk? Why wait 'til 3rd level to cast Daylight, or Prayer? Note that Lesser Restoration is a 1st level spell for Paladins. If you're not willing to arrange spells so that they fit better the access level gates. That's something that a blanket "replace spell list" won't ever achieve.


Anyway what do you guys think? Do you like it? Do you hate it? What do you think I should change? And as always, go nuts.

Besides what I mentioned here...wait, I left the armor-piercing question and the pet peeve for last!

The pet peeve is...what about Remove Disease? If you're adding it as a Cleric spell, that means that by 10th level, the Paladin has a useless class feature, because you can cast it as many times as you desire per day. Worse: BEFORE you get the spell, it became useless, because you can wand or scroll it. You mentioned nothing to change it. That's...irresponsible, if you attempt to do something serious.

And, here's the armor-piercing question: what after 6th level? A Paladin, at 6th level, got everything he or she ever wanted. The Paladin might still need its 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells, sure, but there's several PrCs that advance spellcasting. The Paladin might want to advance his/her smite; no worries, that's what PrCs are for! The Paladin may want to advance her Lay on Hands; congrats, because that's exactly what the Hospitaler does! However, after 6th level, all you get is to progress the classes you got. That, in common parlance, is called "front-loading"; the class gets everything for what it's known early on, and later on, it's left with nothing new. You may tweak some of the Paladin's stuff, but if it's better to PrC out than to stay in, you've got a problem.

Here's another one: how will your Paladin compare to a character that has 1 level of Cleric, 10 levels of Fist of Raziel, and 9 levels in somewhere undefined? If your answer is Divine Grace, add a few levels of Divine Mind and get three free short-range auras, plus Wild Talent (and psionic potential). If your answer is Aura of Courage, the Courage domain grants an aura too. If your answer is Divine Health, lemme show you an item called the Periapt of Health. If your answer is Lay on Hands, the counter-answer is "7 levels of Cleric and the Font of Healing class feature" (which uses Wisdom AND the Cleric's caster level!). If your answer is "a sword that grows with you", I answer "Kensai". That is what you should be asking yourself: can I do better with a build than with a base class? If you do, then your fix doesn't solve that much. The character with 10 levels of Fist of Raziel and 1 level of Cleric has 5th level spellcasting with CL 10, free Magic Circle against Evil, multiple (and improved!) uses of Smite Evil, and the "holy Doritos" class feature. That alone makes it a pretty cool Paladin without ever taking levels on one, even if it's not as effective as a 20th level Paladin (and even then, 5th level spells say otherwise). Unless you can answer that question, you'll be doing little.

In fact, there's not just homebrew; there's a pretty legal build that uses 20 levels of Paladin and all possible kinds of ACF to make a Paladin that's better than the original. Look for the "A-Game Paladin", and any critique behind it: that's a 3.5 Paladin you're seeing there, and with all 3.5 content behind. If your fix can't outperform that build, it's not gonna work. If your fix doesn't outperform the PF Paladin, it won't work. As harsh as it may sound, fixing the Paladin's problems require some deep thought into the matter (and don't even start about the Fighter!).

And, I'll repeat this for you, Toapat: read the Handbook. If you're not familiarized with the Paladin's problems, you'll notice it's not more than just the Code (that's the least of your worries, because we've heard awesome stories of people making great Paladins that never stray from the Code) that needs changing...

[Teapot Salty]

K revised version.

Hit Die: 1D10
Alighnment: Any good
Lose detect Evil.

Smite evil becomes smite, same effect except against everything. And instead of per day, it's per encounter.


Special mount becomes empowered weapon. (I just don't like special mount) +1 attack/damage for given weapon or weapons (should the weapons be functionally the same) starting at 5th level and ad an additional +1 every two levels past that. (5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19)


Lose Turn undead and gain channel Positive energy, 30 ft radius, 1d6 at first level and +1d6 every two paladin levels beyond that. (1, 3, 5, 7 aw screw it, it progresses exactly the same as sneak attack)

Paladins cast spells the same as they do in the book. Except It loses: Bless Weapon, Protection from Chaos/evil, Heal mount, magic circle against evil/chaos, dispel chaos/evil and holy sword. And gains as level 1 spells: Sheild of faith, Summon monster I,(as a good creature only) Aid and remove fear. As level 2 spells: Calm emotions, Summon monster II,(as a good creature only) and Spiritual Weapon. As level 3 Spells: Create food/water and summon monster III(as a-you get the point) as level 4 spells: Devine power and summon monster IV(you get the trend).

That's it, what do you guys think, better? Worse?

[toapat]

Is the paladin the only class that got actual decent support? Are other classes so much worse that most alterations do better than all of what 3.5 offered?

you just asked the most terrifying question on this forum ever.

The scarier part? I can tell you, for certain, that the answer is yes. Of all the classes in the game, Paladin got the 4th best support printed. Only Wizard, Cleric, and Druid got more. (Sorcerer and FVS dont qualify because their support is a side effect of looting the spell lists). Thing is, the paladin also sees alot of movement from their support. Fighter will crest into T4, paladin will outright bypass it into T3 with access to the right books. But almost all of the paladin options that were added push them into low T4.

Fighters got a few tricks but these are so well known they are subsumed into the good homebrew. The other love they got, that is to say, feats, cant really be called true love for the fighter alone.

Rogues got a bit of love, but this, like the Fighter, is typically so ubiquitous in homebrew that even if you dont know the official material exists, its there anyway. Rogue also probably is the worst treated class in all of 3rd, with a number of classes competing and out performing them at their own job.

Monks got one piece of love ever and most dont know it exists, and most who do, know that calling that a monk is completely wrong (Wild?/Shapeshifting monk from Dungeon magazine). Its a balanced druid.

Ranger: Most of their love comes from feats, a little from the spells. Thing is, their spellcasting didnt grow over the lifetime of 3rd the way paladin's did. They didnt get battleblessing but it also wouldnt have helped them. the rest of their love comes from 2 very powerful ACFs, one of which is condemned to hell for being too powerful, and the other which is bestowed in homebrew reliably.

Barbarian: Barbarian was about as neglected as monk. Thing is, Barbarian was a good class from the beginning. The few worthwhile things they got exclusively were really good, the rest is just leftovers from the cuttings intended for Fighter.

Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer: Although these classes were well supported, better then the paladin, very little of what they received changed their possition in the rankings. Alot of what they got didnt matter in the big picture because in the big picture, they are already the ones with 10000 nukes, 1 more just didnt really matter.Solid support, but like the T1+2s which are core, their love didnt really change anything

[Seerow]

You know, I never noticed that nobody else fixing the Paladin gave 1st level spells from level 1. I was going for a Duskblade-esque spell progression, but now that I look at the other linked fixes... yeah almost everyone starts at the very least with cantrips at level 1 (Jiriku going up to 6th level spells went with Cantrips at 1, and level 1 spells at 2, in keeping with the Bard's progression).

Interesting things you learn in threads you didn't expect it.

Edit:

Ranger: Most of their love comes from feats, a little from the spells. Thing is, their spellcasting didnt grow over the lifetime of 3rd the way paladin's did. They didnt get battleblessing but it also wouldnt have helped them. the rest of their love comes from 2 very powerful ACFs, one of which is condemned to hell for being too powerful, and the other which is bestowed in homebrew reliably.


I disagree with this. Rangers didn't get Battle Blessing, but their spell lists grew as much as the Paladins, and they get a lot of nice gems, both for fighting and utility. And of course there's Mystic Ranger and Wildshape Ranger, which are both amazing, and honestly push the Ranger above the Paladin if used together IMO. It's still close, and the Paladin is close to the Ranger, but the Ranger's nice things are just great. The only thing that really hurts the ranger is how specific the favored enemies are.


Barbarian: Barbarian was about as neglected as monk. Thing is, Barbarian was a good class from the beginning. The few worthwhile things they got exclusively were really good, the rest is just leftovers from the cuttings intended for Fighter.


Barbarian wasn't quite as neglected as the monk. Barbarians got lots of fun ACFs/variant rages that make for a huge variety of potential barbarian builds. I mean I'm pretty sure Spirit Lion Totem is probably the most commonly used ACF of any class for melee builds.

[T.G. Oskar]

Quick question, RoC: I could swear you did a Paladin fix somewhere. Maybe my mind is playing me a trick.


I've noticed that the paladin is right up there with the fighter in terms of difficulty to fix, though for entirely different reasons.

Looking at the 3.5 paladin as it is in the PHB, it sucks. It is a wheezing skeleton of a class that quickly sickens and dies after level 3 or so.

If you try to fix it, however, you have to know your stuff VERY well or else you will end up competing with every single piece of official material from the entire run of 3rd edition that was aimed at doing the same thing. To date, I don't think I've seen anyone win that competition.

THINGS YOU (APPARENTLY) CANNOT CHANGE ABOUT THE PALADIN:

The smite cannot deal less damage. Period. Not for versatility. Not for extra certainty. Not for anything (except maybe access to higher-level spells, and even that risks violating flavor). Well-built paladins rely on multiplying that smite damage by almost x20. All must be cognizant that each -1 damage penalty is actually a -18 damage penalty.
The smite must remain "smite evil" and retain its same progression over levels. As much of the versatility in paladin builds comes from ACFs and racial substitution levels, so the names and progressions of your abilities have to remain identical or else you cut off options.
You cannot sacrifice the special mount or place it at any other level. See the above for why this is the case (that is the one feature that is traded for all of the best ACFs).
You can't get rid of turn undead. It's used to power a whole bunch of useful stuff.
By all that is holy, you cannot remove the spells (even if you think that paladins are more "holy warrior"). Not even maneuvers can replace the benefits of those specialized spells from the paladin list.


You could give more skills and lighter restrictions (both common moves) but there's not much else you can change as most of the other class features don't really need fixing (aura of courage, divine grace, lay on hands, disease immunity).

You can add stuff, certainly, and fill in those dead levels without problem. Changing what already exists, however, often seems to result in nerfing the class instead of "fixing it"... at least from all that I've heard. I'm going off of what I've heard on random boards in the past (and what I say above is at least partially tongue-in-cheek).

With that said, I do think that it's odd that it's only really pointed out about this class. Tons of fighter classes get made and I honestly can't ever remember anyone ever saying that changing the feat rate ruins the class because dungeoncrasher can't be used. Hell, people generally don't discuss ACFs or racial substitution levels when approving how well a fighter fix has done... at least from all that I've seen.

For that matter, I haven't seen complaints of that kind about fixing the monk, either. And I feel that I've seen at least some barbarian fixes without fast movement at level one without there being complaints of pounce being lost. Why are these things included in paladin discussions? Is the paladin the only class that got actual decent support? Are other classes so much worse that most alterations do better than all of what 3.5 offered? Are people just that passionate about their paladins? It really makes one wonder.

Trust me, the Monk is exactly there with the Paladin in fixing difficulty. And Fighter is the worst of them all: it's not because of its ACF support, but because it makes other classes pointless, as its problem is at the root of the game (the way feats for martial characters work, arguably THEIR class feature). The Monk losing Unarmed Strike? Blasphemy! Just as the Paladin must have a few things, the Monk must have a few as well: ability to move and attack, Wis to Atk and Dmg., extra uses of class features...it's probable you haven't seen them.

Also, you *can* change things and make them worthwhile, In my case, I killed Divine Health, and the Paladin isn't immune to fear; it's certainly emboldened by fear, but it's never truly immune. I don't feel any of those are nerfs. Spells are a big thing to change because spells are the easiest way to add versatility to a character (likewise with psionic powers). Maneuvers can add many ways to smack a guy with a stick, but very few maneuvers work with outside situations like spells do (you can count the maneuvers that handle out-of-battle situations with the fingers of your hands and the toes of your feet, and they're spread between ALL maneuvers, so lose one and that's 2-3 maneuvers you lose).

As for the smite...what if the Barbarian lost its bonus to Strength? Wouldn't that essentially mean the death of the Barbarian? I mean, you never see a Barbarian who lacks Rage...I don't recall ever seeing one, at least, who loses Rage and gains nothing for it (even the UA replacement adds Favored Enemy AND the Archery combat style for Rage). Most ACFs dealing with Rage actually are VERY similar to Rage, and even Whirling Frenzy grants a Strength bonus. Berserker Strength? As Rage, but you have no control over where it activates. Ferocity? Also gets Strength.

With the Paladin, this becomes an explicit mention, where you really HAVE to point out. With the rest of the classes, it's sorta implicit: a Fighter without feats is a Warrior (unless it has class features, in which case it's a Warrior with class features), a Monk without an increase to unarmed strike isn't a monk, a Barbarian who can't deal 100 points of damage per blow isn't a Barbarian, and so forth.

What's not mentioned is that you can make addendums (as the one you did; see what I did there?) to link them to ACFs, or handle the ACFs on your own. Seerow did that with his Fighter fix, since he pretty much added the Trio of Victory regarding Fighter ACFs (the Thug's expanded list and 4+Int skill points, Dungeon Crasher, and Zhentarim Fighter), so there's very little else to see. Perhaps it's also because the "A-Game Paladin" build truly showcased the power of the class features that a Paladin has near-exclusive access to. You rarely see an "A-Game Monk", and an "A-Game Barbarian" isn't so hard to build (Spirit Lion, PA + Leap Attack -> Shock Trooper); the "A-Game Paladin", on the other hand, made such an impressive showcase of things people already know (Battle Blessing is to the Paladin what Natural Spell is to the Druid; the Mount won't really work always, so Charging Smite is the way to go but Divine Spirit is frelling awesome; there's many ways to boost the Paladin's CL; Sword of the Arcane Order is formidable) that it's difficult to see them leave. Besides Charging Smite/Divine Spirit, there's also Cursebreaker, the Harmonious Knight substitution levels, the Mystic Fire Knight substitution levels, the Underdark Knight... They replace features that aren't so good for the Pally and replace them with better stuff, or they improve what the Paladin has that happens to be great. However, it's because of the extent of the change that they're mentioned...and the fact that Jaron didn't mention their effect on the Tier List, probably. After all, he DOES make a point about Wildshape Ranger, Mystic Ranger and Dungeon Crasher Fighter, but none about Sword of the Arcane Order Paladin or Harmonious Knight Paladin or Divine Spirit Paladin, right?

It's a bit more complex than you may think, which is why you need to learn what you must change about the Paladin. I'd also say Paladins have a very vocal bunch of fans, but that'd be minimizing the impact Monk fans or Fighter fans can do on homebrews.

[toapat]

Note how everyone mentioned in this page dealt with the spell situation. jiriku went for prepared spellcasting up to 6th level; Seerow went with the classic (but with a much higher DC); Toapat went with prepared spellcasting and increased spell list (adding Sorcerer and FvS spells) but kept 4th level; Grod went for fixed-list spontaneous spellcasting, and I went for 4th level spontaneous spellcasting with hybrid list (Cleric spellcasting + Paladin spells + some Bard spells) and arranging the order of some spells. Each of us addressed the situation differently, but twinked directly with the spell list because of the diamonds in the rough. All but jiriku went the Charisma route; all but Toapat gave Paladin spellcasting from 1st level (but even she decided to boost Paladin's caster level to something other than half your Paladin class level); only Seerow granted 1st level spells straight from 1st level and not from 4th level. If anything, that should tell you that a simple "fix" for the Paladin's spell list isn't exactly the most elegant solution, particularly if you don't keep the good spells.

And, I'll repeat this for you, Toapat: read the Handbook. If you're not familiarized with the Paladin's problems, you'll notice it's not more than just the Code (that's the least of your worries, because we've heard awesome stories of people making great Paladins that never stray from the Code) that needs changing...

This, This is why i always link to your paladin, why i link to grods, why i link to seerow. i try to avoid Jiriku because i feel that thats homebrew along side my non-brew paladin, as in it is nice but not actually something to bring to a discussion about fixing mechanics.

there is a mistake: My paladin i linked is actually a hybrid Spontaineous and Prepared caster, as a result of personal lazyness in respect to not wanting to dig through 7 spell levels of the 2 largest spell lists printed.

The code: The code will always need adjustment when you unlock the paladin from exclusively LG, but the situation you reffernce, I must appologise for, I had completed my first homebrew, i felt on top of the world. My ego blinded me to critsism, while when i would typically search this forum would lead me to miss what was said.



I disagree with this. Rangers didn't get Battle Blessing, but their spell lists grew as much as the Paladins, and they get a lot of nice gems, both for fighting and utility. And of course there's Mystic Ranger and Wildshape Ranger, which are both amazing, and honestly push the Ranger above the Paladin if used together IMO. It's still close, and the Paladin is close to the Ranger, but the Ranger's nice things are just great. The only thing that really hurts the ranger is how specific the favored enemies are.

Barbarian wasn't quite as neglected as the monk. Barbarians got lots of fun ACFs/variant rages that make for a huge variety of potential barbarian builds. I mean I'm pretty sure Spirit Lion Totem is probably the most commonly used ACF of any class for melee builds.

Ranger: Actually, their spell list is that sterile. Ive looked, i double checked, multiple times. Paladins at each spell level got more spells over the span of 3.5 then ranger did across all 4. The mega powered ACFs refferenced were Wildshape and Mystic, and Wildshape is typically added into ranger homebrew as a native feature. However, the degree of movement isnt actually as great, Paladin is going from upper middle T5 to middle T3, Ranger goes from middle T4 to upper T3. (i worded the original comment incorrectly for what i meant)

Barbarian: im counting how those ACFs moved the classes. They got love, as did monk. but the thing is, most of that love doesnt go anywhere for the class, is what i mean. Monk got love, but litterally all of the love monk got was irrelevant, it did nothing for them except for the one that gets shape shifting, which turned their weak abilities into a unified furry deathball of DOOOOM

Teapot: I must appologise for hijacking this thread into a metaphilosophical debate on paladin homebrew, but i feel i must at least always present homebrew others have performed, due to a respect for etiquette and my peers

Relevant:
Paladins cast spells the same as they do in the book. Except It loses: Bless Weapon, Protection from Chaos/evil, Heal mount, magic circle against evil/chaos, dispel chaos/evil and holy sword. And gains as level 1 spells: Sheild of faith, Summon monster I,(as a good creature only) Aid and remove fear. As level 2 spells: Calm emotions, Summon monster II,(as a good creature only) and Spiritual Weapon. As level 3 Spells: Create food/water and summon monster III(as a-you get the point) as level 4 spells: Devine power and summon monster IV(you get the trend).

Summon monster is irrelevant when under level, because it summons CR appropriate monsters for when a wizard would get the spell. the only one close to useful is SM1 and thats only because its the least out of date when you get it.

Protection, aligned spells: you shouldnt be throwing out anything from these, you get them all because they are useful and provide good buffs, the only problem is the dispels which are too low level. Create Food/Water should be a second level spell for paladins. Holy Sword is, as Oskar said, a free Mini-Holy Avenger (a +5 Holy longsword which emits a Protection from Evil, the artifact also grants SR and Greater Dispel Magic at Paladin level = CL on hit.)

You need a wider range of utility on the free magic weapon, as people have said, its basically a weaker PF divine bond (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/paladin.html#_paladin) (an ability i personally detest because of Holy sword)

[Teapot Salty]

Quick note: This is not a paladin fix, this is a make me hate paladin less thread.

EDIT: And in essence the reason I hate the paladin is that against anything but evil, you are the worst of both worlds between a cleric and a fighter, who can't kill surrendered guys.

[toapat]

Quick note: This is not a paladin fix, this is a make me hate paladin less thread.

EDIT: And in essence the reason I hate the paladin is that against anything but evil, you are the worst of both worlds between a cleric and a fighter, who can't kill surrendered guys.

while you cant get around the "Be a nice person"

Here is the Paladin. not a paladin, THE paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376). The one who Grod, Jiriku, Oskar, Seerow, and I have looked upon in awe. He makes the cleric proud, the Fighter gape in Awe, and the bard cry in a corner for his inferiority.

[T.G. Oskar]

there is a mistake: My paladin i linked is actually a hybrid Spontaineous and Prepared caster, as a result of personal lazyness in respect to not wanting to dig through 7 spell levels of the 2 largest spell lists printed.

Well, I checked on only one, and then dipped from the others. Wasn't nearly as hard as I thought of.

However, that might be something you need to clarify. I really found it difficult to work if it was spontaneous or prepared; at first I thought spontaneous, but then I saw the "cast and prepare" bit and my mind immediately went "prepared". Only when you mentioned it knocked.


Ranger: Actually, their spell list is that sterile. Ive looked, i double checked, multiple times. Paladins at each spell level got more spells over the span of 3.5 then ranger did across all 4. The mega powered ACFs refferenced were Wildshape and Mystic, and Wildshape is typically added into ranger homebrew as a native feature. However, the degree of movement isnt actually as great, Paladin is going from upper middle T5 to middle T3, Ranger goes from middle T4 to upper T3. (i worded the original comment incorrectly for what i meant)

Hunter's Mercy (remember that bows have a x3 to their critical multiplier, and deal pretty decent damage). Foebane. Hunter's Eye. Those three are pretty nice spells for Rangers. One is the direct equivalent to Holy Sword, except it replaces Holy with Bane and the Magic Circle effect for a bonus to saving throws. The last one adds Sneak Attack, and it's one of the few spells that grant that ability (the other is Nightstalker's Transformation).

If you expand to spells that Rangers share with other classes except Paladins, you can add Blades of Fire (not so bad for a swift-action spell lasting 1 round), Healing Lorecall and Listening Lorecall (blindsight for a 2nd level spell?), Ram's Might, Lion's Charge, Swift Haste (or as I like to call it, Sweet Haste)... Dig a bit deeper and you get the spells that boost arrows, including the one from which the Splitting enhancement is based off (I've seen what the Splitting enchantment can do; now think a Ranger has access to those arrow-based spells).

Rangers got a nice selection, and get pretty nice spells every level, including spells that work best out of combat. They still lack spells much like Paladins lack spells that make sense for them, but that doesn't mean they got the short end of the stick in terms of new spells. Note that they also have access to Sword of the Arcane Order, and their Shooting Star substitution level is similar to that of the Paladin's Mystic Fire Knight, so the biggest difference between the spellcasting of the two is the lack of Battle Blessing for the Ranger.


Teapot: I must appologise for hijacking this thread into a metaphilosophical debate on paladin homebrew, but i feel i must at least always present homebrew others have performed, due to a respect for etiquette and my peers

It would have devolved into one anyways; after all, it's due to the differences in vision. There's nothing wrong on going philosophical, and there's no such thing as "above the realm of the philosophical" regarding this debate; it's purely mechanics.


Quick note: This is not a paladin fix, this is a make me hate paladin less thread.

EDIT: And in essence the reason I hate the paladin is that against anything but evil, you are the worst of both worlds between a cleric and a fighter, who can't kill surrendered guys.

I pointed out the A-Game Paladin several times. Not everyone agrees with it, but the main part of the build works pretty well; you add effective buffing to the Paladin, making it an effective front-line leader. Inspire Courage is definitely the Bard's thing, but the Paladin gets it by expending one use of its smite. In essence, the Paladin turned a per-day boost to attack and damage for 1 single blow into a bonus to attack and damage for several rounds to ALL allies, eliminating in a single blow about half of your concerns; it works against all creatures (even good ones) rather than just evil ones, and it provides something neither a Fighter nor a Cleric can pull off (not even a Cleric with the Destruction domain, as the feat that enables Inspire Courage explicitly mentions paladin level, not character level). As Toapat mentioned, beyond the alignment-specific spells, Paladins have a decent spell list (which could be better, IMO), and have things that a Fighter would lack (though extra feats would be nice). If that's one of your MAIN concerns, then I fail to see how a Paladin with the Cleric spell list helps, since it'll still be WORSE than a Cleric, and won't match the Fighter in terms of feats, still making the two worse.

Going through the revision...it pretty much completely missed the point. Lemme rephrase your peeves with the class:
It's good against evil creatures only
Otherwise, it's worse than a Fighter/Cleric build
It can't kill surrendered enemies.

Going with 1st: the only thing that makes the Paladin different from the original in terms of alignment is an alignment-unlocked Smite. Regarding the rest...well, you took away the alignment-specific spells, but why remove the spells that are good against chaotic creatures as well? Furthermore, why remove Protection from Chaos/Evil and Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil? That spell is the best protecting against mental defenses; it's almost like Mind Blank, but at 1st level, because the barrier that protects against possession and mental control work regardless of alignment.

In fact, lemme refer to one of the usual Kobayashi Maru tests of the Paladin's Code: there's an innocent about to be used as the vessel for an Archdemon, and your only option is to kill it (therefore killing an innocent), or let it be possessed (and bringing great evil into the world). If you're a 5th level Paladin and you have at least Wisdom 12, you can laugh to the DM and say "I cast Protection from Evil on the innocent before the Archdemon enters", because of how the spell works (it keeps out possessing life forces, so the Archdemon's attempt will eventually fail. At the very least, it buys you 2 minutes to work something out. Your Paladin no longer gets bound by the Code, but doesn't get to flip a bird on a sadistic DM in that regard.

As for the second: consider a Fighter 1/Cleric 1 against a Paladin 2. The Fighter/Cleric has 1st level spells at CL 1st, Turn Undead, Domains, and one additional feat; the Paladin has one smite, Cha to saves, +1 to BAB (but -1 Fortitude and -2 Will) and Lay on Hands. Right there, even with the -1 to BAB, the Fighter/Cleric pushes up because the extra feat allows some diversification that the Paladin lacks. At 4th level, the Paladin gets its first spell, Turn Undead, immunity to fear and disease, plus all I mentioned; a Fighter/Cleric gets another free feat and more spells than the Paladin will ever have, at the same CL. At 6th level, the Paladin gets a magic weapon, an extra use of Smite, Remove Disease 1/week and an extra attack, while the Fighter/Cleric gets 2nd level spells at the same CL as the Paladin. At 10th level, the Paladin gets two uses of Remove Disease, three uses of Smite per encounter (decent, yes) and 2nd level spells: the Fighter/Cleric gets the same amount of attacks as the Paladin but at a -2 penalty to its BAB, another feat (thus completing a feat chain easily), and 3rd level spells at the same CL as the Paladin. At 14th level, the Paladin gets another use of Remove Disease and 4th level spells; the Fighter/Cleric gains another bonus feat, the same amount of 4th level spells, and an extra attack three levels below the Paladin. At 20th level, the Paladin gets two extra uses of Remove Disease and Smite Evil, whereas the Fighter/Cleric gets two bonus feats, as many attacks as the Paladin, and 5th level spells at the same CL as the Paladin. At all moments, the Fighter/Cleric pushes forward, because it has two things the Paladin, even with his best spells, lacks: consistency (once the Paladin's smites are expended for the day, he has no distinct advantage in terms of combat against a Fighter/Cleric, as the latter gets more spells than the former). If a Fighter/Cleric is STILL better than a Paladin at the same levels, then you might realize your second point hasn't been addressed as you'd like. The loss in HP is almost meaningless (-10 HP in average), and you get the same Reflex base save but better Fortitude and Will saves than the latter.

Spell-wise, removing some of the best spells Paladins get because they're "alignment-locked" is inane at best. Holy Sword, no matter what, is a great spell for Paladins; a Fighter/Cleric could have the spell by getting the Glory domain (and maybe one or two more domains have it), and Bless Weapon is also great, AND accessible to Clerics. Dispel Chaos and Dispel Evil are pretty cool, since they can protect you from attacks, allow you to banish an evil extraplanar creature, or dispel an enchantment spell; in essence, it's three spells in one, even if they're "alignment-locked". I already mentioned why removing the Protection and Magic Circle spells is a bad idea. As for the switches: Aid is a great spell at 1st level for Paladins, and I'm always a supporter of adding Shield of Faith to Paladins; Remove Fear on the other hand is...meh, when you have Lionheart which is far better. Spiritual Weapon is an OK 2nd level spell, but Calm Emotions...well, I have it, but I don't see how it's better than the spells you lost. The 3rd level spells...are, IMO, worthless (you can leave others to create Food and Water, and if you look at Shax's Indispensable Haversack, you'll notice you can go with food and water at all times from 1st level onwards). The 4th level spells net you a spell that's...decent, but nothing out of the ordinary (a full-level Paladin won't get that much from Divine Power, save for the temporary hit points and the +2 extra bonus to Strength compared to Bull's Strength, so...).

I make a special mention to Summon Monster spells, for good reasons. You'll notice that, at least talking about my piece of homebrew, I didn't add the SM line. I didn't add it because I didn't felt the Paladin needed them, not because of any weakness. If you're removing the mount because you don't like it...and you add basically what you'd get from Greater Magic Weapon...then why add a spell that could allow you to summon a mount for a few rounds? Note that giant owls, bisons and to an extent a black bear can be mounted. I really don't see as iconic that a Paladin gets to summon anything, and I'm not a fan of the mount either, so I replaced it with something that's really worthwhile (a set of features that represent the Paladin's resolve when things start to get grim), plus all options that they'd get through ACFs.

So, to resume the 2nd point: your "not-fix" really can't compare to a Fighter/Cleric that's leapfrogging (that is, alternating between Fighter and Cleric every level). Perhaps if the Fighter/Cleric had more Fighter levels than Cleric levels you'd see a difference, but so as long as the Fighter/Cleric has access to 5th level spells, the Paladin loses pretty badly.

As for the 3rd point: you realize that, even in antiquity, surrendering and then betraying that attention merited immediate death, right? If an enemy surrenders, you're obligated to give mercy, yes: that's what being GOOD is for, not merely LAWFUL GOOD. However, if someone surrenders, you give him mercy, and he (or she) betrays that mercy, even the purest of Paladins will slay the betrayer on sight, even if the latter asks for mercy again (because the surrendered effectively rejected its condition). That alone isn't a strong point, but if that's only a passing remark about how much you don't like the Code, then...work around it, or drop it entirely.

I thought of ONE more build that you have to compare; is your build better than a Paladin 10/Gray Guard 10? Gray Guards lose 5 levels worth of spellcasting and still have to follow the Code to an extent, but they're free to violate their code if it's necessary, and get more stuff than a 20-level Paladin would (including weaponizing Lay on Hands). Haven't you considered making a Gray Guard instead? Note that the Adaptation section does imply you can work the Paladin to grant the traits of a Gray Guard as it gains levels, rather than have it as a PrC. Considering, as well, that the Adaptation section sometimes is worshipped as RAW (*coughcoughUnarmedSwordsagecoughcough*), you can justify that.

[toapat]

Well, I checked on only one, and then dipped from the others. Wasn't nearly as hard as I thought of.

However, that might be something you need to clarify. I really found it difficult to work if it was spontaneous or prepared; at first I thought spontaneous, but then I saw the "cast and prepare" bit and my mind immediately went "prepared". Only when you mentioned it knocked.

basically, its how i offset the power of giving litteral access to 99% of the spells in the game:

from 4th to 10th level, that paladin is exclusively a spontaneous caster restricted to the paladin spell list.

from 11th level onwards, the paladin gets access to prepared Sorcerer/FVS spells at double spellslot cost, and considering this is a paladin, every single one of those spells becomes scroll castable with a negligible UMD check. (which will be rectified if i do not decide to make another paladin.)

the reason why you were mistaken is because i made a mistake in the topic of that paladin, which is typically overlooked because of the independent line declaring the paladin as a spontaneous caster

the Sterility of the ranger spell list is in reference to how much growth it received as in comparison to paladin. the total spell list growth that ranger saw was under a quarter what paladin did. The ranger just had a better, native, spell list.

[Grod_The_Giant]

EDIT: And in essence the reason I hate the paladin is that against anything but evil, you are the worst of both worlds between a cleric and a fighter, who can't kill surrendered guys.
The way to address that, of course, is to have class features that aren't Smite Evil. Look at mine, for example-- sure, he's got powerful smites, but he can also heal, shield his allies, fly, gain critical immunities, and that's not even touching on spells.

[T.G. Oskar]

The way to address that, of course, is to have class features that aren't Smite Evil. Look at mine, for example-- sure, he's got powerful smites, but he can also heal, shield his allies, fly, gain critical immunities, and that's not even touching on spells.

That's a good point, but in the OP's case, that might not be the best solution. Simply removing the alignment lock on Smite Evil is decent enough.

Yet, the OP isn't interested in reworking the Paladin from its Core, even if that's the best solution. It takes some skill, but the OP could opt for a minimalist approach (to do as little changes as possible, but focus entirely on those changes to make them the bulk of the work). The "merge Cleric + Paladin spells" is minimalistic (akin to the Gestalt approach, where you take the best of both classes), but it requires a bit to become elegant; however, for what the OP desires, it's good enough to add a large bit of power to the Paladin (sure, the Pally'll probably lose Righteous Might and a few other spells if its spell list isn't revised, but it's the simplest way to add power). An alignment-less smite is also a minimalist approach, but that one needs work; the OP's approach of recovering them every encounter is as minimalist as it goes, but it also requires something else. A mere boost to damage works wonders, but variable damage isn't the best approach; fixed damage has been proven to work. The OP's approach to replace the mount with a magical sword was decent, but only increasing damage wasn't enough; the Weapon Bond from Pathfinder is right up the OP's alley, and that can be refined a bit further. Those three mere changes add a bit to the Paladin's power, since it adds a whole wealth of new spells to play with (every single spell from 1st to 4th level from the Cleric and Paladin spell lists ever published, casting them in the best way possible), makes their burst damage somewhat constant, and gives them a magic weapon they can play with.

Certainly, this isn't enough; the Paladin WILL need extra class features to exist beyond 6th level. The easiest and most effective way would be to replace Remove Disease with bonus feats; a simple switch, and if you need to save on the work, just make it so it allows all Fighter bonus feats and all Divine feats. That's pretty blanket-based, and adds lasting power.

That said, Grod, it doesn't undermine your opinion. Trying to work with the Paladin requires, for lack of a better word, "dirtying" your hands. A minimalist approach is certainly possible, and most people have done it, but without focusing on what few changes you ARE going to do, it won't be effective. Furthermore, at one point, you WILL have to add some class features, because the Paladin only gets three checkpoints during its career: when it gets 2nd level spells, when it gets 3rd level spells, and when it gets 4th level spells. Because of PrCs, they aren't even checkpoints, so you're forced to add something ELSE.

In short: you're right, but the OP will say it's not what he looks for, so the best approach is to say "you don't have to add that much; just focus on making what the Pally gets is good, and THEN throw it a bone with one or two more features". As I said, even adding just bonus feats is nice enough, and they take a feature that definitely makes no sense (Remove Disease; ugh).