Is it dead yet?

[Keneth]

I've made some liberal changes to system in the last year or so, and among other things, characters get to perform a lot more full attacks than the base system would normally allow.

Now, a situation that seems to be arising quite frequently is when a character is performing a full attack with more than one enemy within reach, they perform one of their attacks, and if the enemy is downed, they choose to attack a different enemy.

The question bothering me is whether this is actually realistically feasible. Obviously, introducing realism into the game has its pros and cons, but in most cases, a fatal wound doesn't necessarily mean you fall down flat on your face in a split second. And since this is a timespan of less than 6 seconds that we're talking about, would a character really notice when one of their attacks proves fatal and move on to another enemy, or should they decide on their attacks without that information?

[Meth In a Mine]

I generally assume the whole "not immediately fatal" is the sort of thing reflected by low-hp situations, whereas going to zero represents a situation where you cannot take any more punishment and your body has to drop.

[Darrin]

The real question here is not "Would this be realistic?" but "Would the game be improved with this level of realism?"

I tend to favor expediency over realism. YMMV.

[ryu]

Considering these characters are supposed to be blatantly orders of magnitude more capable than ordinary humans? They know immediately yes. That is the base assumption of the D&D character fluff. Wizards are smarter than any human that has ever lived. Druids have better sensory data gathering than any human that has ever lived and quite a few animals. Fighters aren't supposed to be garden variety chumps that got handed swords with some natural talent. They went to a college devoted specifically to making sure they knew what's up when using their weapon of choice. On a higher tier of the same archetype swordsages are so in tune with their weapons that they can use them to break the laws of physics with alarming regularity and severity.

[Techwarrior]

Inigo Montoya (a high level warrior of some type or another) clearly does, cutting down a full squad of guardsmen without wasting a single movement or strike.

[Keneth]

I generally assume the whole "not immediately fatal" is the sort of thing reflected by low-hp situations.

For that to work, it would have to mean that wounds get worse over time, and a very short amount of time at that. Which they don't. At all, unless they're bleeding wounds.


The real question here is not "Would this be realistic?" but "Would the game be improved with this level of realism?"

Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of introducing this as a house rule. I appreciate the fact that many rules are abstract for a reason, and I've gone to great lengths to make sure my rules are both functional and expedient without breaking one's suspension of disbelief too much.

It does however push that limit when the archer goes "I shoot my 4 arrows at the guy," and another player says "you should just shoot one, maybe that's gonna be enough to take it down."


Considering these characters are supposed to be blatantly orders of magnitude more capable than ordinary humans? They know immediately yes.

Except they don't. Which is why spells like deathwatch exist to inform the characters of the situation. If a player asks me how wounded the creature looks, I usually allow for Perception, Knowledge, and/or Heal checks to give them rough estimates, but knowing when the enemy falls is a special case because mechanically a creature that is either unconscious or dead almost always immediately falls prone.


Inigo Montoya (a high level warrior of some type or another) clearly does, cutting down a full squad of guardsmen without wasting a single movement or strike.

I have never read (or seen) The Princess Bride, so I have almost no idea about the work, but at a glance, it seems like more of a "real world" setting with ordinary (or perhaps extraordinary) people, with the guards representing what are in my game minions, requiring a specific number of "strikes" to kill, rather than possessing an arbitrary hp bar that has to be depleted.

[ryu]

I'd actually count princess bride as a world where the sword is a legitimately deadly tool that will almost always result in severe bleeding, and a quick death upon successful strikes. People don't take more than one good cut to take down in real life. Particularly resilient people might be able to crawl around for a bit, or even make some pitiful counterattack. They aren't likely to live long even left alone though. This is demonstrated by Inigo being seriously crippled by a single cut dishonorably made by the six fingered man. It was no small feat that he managed to fight back after that. It was one of his greatest climactic moments in the entire movie.

[Techwarrior]

I have never read (or seen) The Princess Bride, so I have almost no idea about the work, but at a glance, it seems like more of a "real world" setting with ordinary (or perhaps extraordinary) people, with the guards representing what are in my game minions, requiring a specific number of "strikes" to kill, rather than possessing an arbitrary hp bar that has to be depleted.

One arbitrary measurement is as arbitrary as another. The fact remains that the character wouldn't have known they were considered 'Minions' and wouldn't require more than one strike to kill.

[Slipperychicken]

Now, a situation that seems to be arising quite frequently is when a character is performing a full attack with more than one enemy within reach, they perform one of their attacks, and if the enemy is downed, they choose to attack a different enemy.

The rules expressly permit you to do this. Most people roll their attacks in rapid succession to save OOC time, not because their characters are so stupid they don't know when someone's out of the fight. This is also a very common event in the fictional combat which D&D groups generally try to emulate. Maybe you could give a Sense Motive check (or perhaps a Heal check) to know that someone's stopped being a threat and will fall over in a few seconds.

I would let characters switch targets if they full attack and the first opponent goes down unexpectedly quickly, but they would have to select their next target as appropriate for a full attack (i.e. You can take your 5ft step and/or swift action between blows, but that's it).

[Keneth]

One arbitrary measurement is as arbitrary as another. The fact remains that the character wouldn't have known they were considered 'Minions' and wouldn't require more than one strike to kill.

I'd actually count princess bride as a world where the sword is a legitimately deadly tool that will almost always result in severe bleeding, and a quick death upon successful strikes.

ryu's post was kind of the point I was trying to make. It's a setting in which the enemies will go down in one efficient strike, which is comparable to the minion system I use, but not to the rest of your typical D&D combat where the characters are mostly clueless about the state of enemies until they kiss the dirt.


The rules expressly permit you to do this.

I know. I wasn't asking if it's RAW. I know it's RAW, it's how I run my games. I'm merely interested in whether anyone else is bothered by it.

[Flickerdart]

Inigo Montoya (a high level warrior of some type or another) clearly does, cutting down a full squad of guardsmen without wasting a single movement or strike.
Inigo Montoya wasn't that high level - he didn't think he could handle a mere 20 run of the mill guardsmen (though his decision not to wear armour and to fight one-handed doesn't do him any favours).

[bekeleven]

Inigo Montoya wasn't that high level - he didn't think he could handle a mere 20 run of the mill guardsmen (though his decision not to wear armour and to fight one-handed doesn't do him any favours).

Inigo Montoya was clearly one of those charisma-to-everything builds. Although if I built him I'd go int spec, something like Factotum 8/Swashbuckler 3/Exotic Weapon Master 1 with an Elven Thinblade and Uncanny Blow.

[Flickerdart]

Clearly? The man never convinced anybody of anything. Westley is the Charisma type; Inigo is all Dex. He even laments his own inability to come up with plans and schemes, something that an Int-focused character would accomplish easily.

[ryu]

Clearly? The man never convinced anybody of anything. Westley is the Charisma type; Inigo is all Dex. He even laments his own inability to come up with plans and schemes, something that an Int-focused character would accomplish easily.

Nah man nah. Westley is int focused hard. All of his acts of convincing people through diplomacy, intimidation, and bluff are accomplished through heavy skill ranks and circumstance bonuses. Why do I say this? He's the one who comes up with every single one of the most intelligent actions and plans in the story.

[Flickerdart]

Or he has more than one high stat.

[ryu]

Or he has more than one high stat.

I'd be willing to accept Cha as his secondary.