Durkon Vs V

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys, another vs thread. (After this, Haley vs Elan) This one is for the two most powerful members of the team. Mechanically and realistically, arena battle starting 60 ft from each other, no holds barred, both want the other dead. (Does realistically even work, all V does is make the laws of physics cry) Also note, It's Durkon, not Durkula.

Mechanically is pretty tough. Durkon's Armor is going to do nothing but maybe give him an occasional check penalty. V could fly but. I honestly don't know here. But if Durkon grounds V and is in melee range, we all know what would happen.

Realistically I still don't have any idea. (realistically doesn't mean no spells, it means that game mechanics don't apply)

And as always, go nuts.

[Vinyadan]

This is very much dependent on the spell selection for that day. Personally, I would be for V, if he doesn't just prepare hold portal over and over.

[Teapot Salty]

This is very much dependent on the spell selection for that day. Personally, I would be for V, if he doesn't just prepare hold portal over and over. Good point. One scenario, they both know they'll be fighting each other 24 hours in advance. Other scenario is just they have no idea.

[Talvereaux]

Vaarsuvius arguably has a better spell selection for the task (she's a blaster, but usually prepares a lot of battle-ending control spells anyway), but a cleric's saving throws are pretty difficult to surmount, while we know Vaarsuvius' saves suck.

I think this one can go either way. It could end with a single Prismatic Spray, but we also know Durkon prepares Hold Person, and if V gets incapacitated--even by a spell that mundane--she's as good as dead. I want to say this one's up to who's luckier first and foremost.

[Vinyadan]

If Durkon prepares control winds, it can make V's life difficult. A good question is also if they would have time to cast buffing spells before they directly meet each other.

[Teapot Salty]

If Durkon prepares control winds, it can make V's life difficult. A good question is also if they would have time to cast buffing spells before they directly meet each other.
This is going to play out in so many scenarios. The ones I said before, double them, and make one half buffed and the other not.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

This one, unlike the Roy vs. Belkar one, has too many different outcomes to give you a good answer. It depends on how many spells they both have, which spells they prepared, and how well they use those spells. Personally, I think Vaarsuvius would win, but it can go either way.

[Demoman]

I don't think either of them will fight to the death. To prevent any such issues, we'll simply assume they are somehow fighting with non-lethal damage. That or they know its a simulation. Also, I'll pretend Durkon is 14th and V is 16th lvl.

V's instant kill moves are normally based on Will and Fort saves, both of which Durkon has in spades. Durkon also has many spells of energy protection such as Resist Energy and has ample healing. In terms of spell slots, even Durkon pulls ahead in outright numbers.

Put simply, if prepared, Durkon can outright shut V down completely. With Control Winds V can't get away from him aside from on-foot or maybe Expedious Retreat.

V's strongest spell in terms of damage is Disintegrate. Most of his other spells are area-of-effect, such as Chain Lightning and Fireball. V's Disintegrate clocks to a 32d6 (averaging 110ish, which is still lower than Heal). Durkon has Heals burning holes in his pocket and that is if he fails his save.

Regarding of circumstance Durkon and V have plenty of buffs that can shut each other down via Dispel Magic. Honestly after some good play, I believe the win is likely going to be...

Durkon

Hold Person can shut V down in a near instant. d8 w/ CON vs d4 HD with likely no CON. Heals vs. no heals. Warhammer vs. unarmed.

[Socksy]

V's strongest spell in terms of damage is Disintegrate. Most of his other spells are area-of-effect, such as Chain Lightning and Fireball. V's Disintegrate clocks to a 32d6 (averaging 110ish, which is still lower than Heal). Durkon has Heals burning holes in his pocket and that is if he fails his save.

Assuming he makes his saves against massive damage and against losing over half his HP, you reckon he'll be able to pull off that Concentration check? 10 + damage dealt, IIRC.

[Forum Explorer]

Assuming he makes his saves against massive damage and against losing over half his HP, you reckon he'll be able to pull off that Concentration check? 10 + damage dealt, IIRC.

Isn't that only if it happens while Durkon is casting the spell? If he takes the damage then heals on his next turn there isn't a concentration check at all.

[oppyu]

More importantly, who would win between Haley and Ela- Oh right, Haley.

As for Durkon and Vaarsuvius... a lot of variables. Vaarsuvius has a higher damage output, but Durkon has melee, the saves, armour and HP. So it depends on whether or not Durkon can close the distance, whether it's the start of the day or the end of the day, whether they had time to buff, whether they're inside or outside, what spells they have prepared, if we're talking Durkon or not-Durkon, whether or not Durkon gets breaks in the battle to heal himself... *shrugs* No idea.

[Teapot Salty]

More importantly, who would win between Haley and Ela- Oh right, Haley.

As for Durkon and Vaarsuvius... a lot of variables. Vaarsuvius has a higher damage output, but Durkon has melee, the saves, armour and HP. So it depends on whether or not Durkon can close the distance, whether it's the start of the day or the end of the day, whether they had time to buff, whether they're inside or outside, what spells they have prepared, if we're talking Durkon or not-Durkon, whether or not Durkon gets breaks in the battle to heal himself... *shrugs* No idea.
No Durkula, after all, it's not Durkon.

[137beth]

Greater Dispel Magic and Busby's___hand to grab the staff.

[Livius]

I think V can't do worse than a draw with force effects.

One Forcecage and Durkon is trapped without anything to do about it.

[FlayerIV]

There's far too many variables on this one. If I had to guess, I would say V, but that's purely based on the fact that V has a greater spell selection and therefore if we assume they meet on whatever they've prepared for the day or they've each prepared in advance, V is slightly more likely to have a spell to do the job.

Which means bugger all if Durkon succeeds at something when V fails, or vice versa. Or one of them picks an abnormally good selection or abnormally poor.

And unlike the Roy vs Belkar fight, Durkon isn't stupid and has enough personal wits to come up with a decent strategy where V's occasional arrogance might get in the way.

[orrion]

If Durkon prepares control winds, it can make V's life difficult. A good question is also if they would have time to cast buffing spells before they directly meet each other.

The High Priest can't prepare Control Winds, unless the Giant throws rules out the window. Control Winds is an Air Domain spell, and Vampires don't have access to it.

[zimmerwald1915]

The High Priest can't prepare Control Winds, unless the Giant throws rules out the window. Control Winds is an Air Domain spell, and Vampires don't have access to it.
Although it seems like he could prepare it at one time, he doesn't carry scrolls of control winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html) and it doesn't look like it can be cast from the staff either. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html)

That said, I'd have to give this to Durkon. As a traitor, he would prepare to take on the whole Order, including V, and thus probably has a plan to neutralize the Elf. Unwise though it is to rely on the system as a predictor, by CR alone, he'd probably win. V, on the other hand, has character reasons to actively ignore the possibility of Durkon's betraying the Order, and would thus probably not prepare her spells with him in mind unless someone else (Roy? Belkar?) asked her to. She'd have to rely on what she normally prepares. Of those spells, forcecage is probably her best spell for this situation, but she might have used up her rubies this book.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The High Priest can't prepare Control Winds, unless the Giant throws rules out the window. Control Winds is an Air Domain spell, and Vampires don't have access to it.

We're comparing pre-vampirization Durkon.

[King of Nowhere]

My money is on durkon. his advantages are better saving throws, greater hp, and almost limitless healing capability. V's advantage is mobility, and most of durkon's spells are close range. I think a single slay living (7th level spell, ranged, target have a con save or dies) from durkon should most likely end the match as V don't have death ward available and his con save suck, even buffed. Even if V manages to stay out of range, there is a good chance durkon is capable of just making any saving throw required and/or healing himself until V runs out of spells.

Of course the fight could go differently if Durkon tanks a saving throw first. Someone mentioned also forcecage, which would give V the advantage; I'm not the greater expert on rules, so I don't know if durkon can get out of that. but even otherwise, he probably can just wait and heal.

I'd say 70% win durkon 30% win V

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not the greater expert on rules, so I don't know if durkon can get out of that. but even otherwise, he probably can just wait and heal.
Waiting and healing is a bad option, since it would effectively restart the fight 32 hours later. Both Vaarsuvius and Durkon would have time to prepare spells, but prep time favors V, who has better spells overall and access to better allies (Elan, Belkar, Haley and Roy > some number of barbed devils). Pre-vamp Durkon could get out of a forcecage using plane shift unless the fight took place in a dimensionally locked area like the Mechane. Doing so, however, would end the battle even more effectively than the forcecage itself would. Durkon would need a second plane shift spell to even get back to the mortal plane, and would need to return to Vaarsuvius' location after that. He could also try to dispel the forcecage, but V's caster level is higher than Durkon's even without the ioun stone, so he probably wouldn't succeed. Post-vamp Durkon could get out with a disintegrate, assuming his domains are Death and Destruction.

For what it's worth, here are (EDIT: Durkon), Vamp-Durkon, and V represented (I know the OP specifies Pre-vamp Durkon, but since we probably won't see him for at least another book I consider that less than pointful), with complete statblocks. Please note that although as far as I can tell nothing in them contradicts what is shown in the comic, these are meant for modeling purposes only and are not supposed to be definitive in any way.

Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Hit Dice: 14d8+14 (126 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. in full plate armor; base speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 24 (+8 full plate armor, +2 masterwork heavy steel shield, -1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+12
Attack: masterwork warhammer +13 melee (1d8+2)
Full Attack: masterwork warhammer +13/+8 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Dwarf traits, spells
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., dwarf traits
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +12
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 9, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 9
Skills: Concentration +15, Knowledge (religion) +1, Speak Language (giant), Spellcraft +17
Feats: Combat Casting, Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Martial Weapon Proficiency (warhammer), Power Attack
Challenge Rating: 14
Alignment: Lawful Good
Level Adjustment: +0

Spells
Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7/7/6/5/4/4/3; save DC 13+spell level)
0—create water, detect magic, guidance, read magic, resistance, virtue; 1st—bless, bless beer, command, divine favor, entropic shield, protection from evil*, shield of faith; 2nd—aid*, extended shield of faith, hold person, remove paralysis, lesser restoration, resist energy (2); 3rd—magic vestment, mass resist energy, meld into stone, speak with dead, stone shape, Thor's lightning*; 4th—discern lies, divine power, greater magic weapon, holy smite*, restoration; 5th—break enchantment, dispel evil*, Thor's might, true seeing; 6th—control winds*, greater dispel magic, heal (2); 7th—holy word*, mass death ward, resurrection

*Domain Spell. Domains: Good and Weather (nonstandard)

Size/Type: Medium Undead (augmented humanoid)
Hit Dice: 14d12 (168 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 20 ft. in full plate armor; base speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 33 (+8 full plate armor, +2 masterwork heavy steel shield, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +11 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+15
Attack: staff of obscure spells +15 melee (1d4+7) or slam +15 melee (1d6+5 plus 2 negative levels)
Full Attack: staff of obscure spells +15/+10 melee (1d4+7) or slam +15 melee (1d6+5 plus 2 negative levels)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, dwarf traits, energy drain, rebuke undead, spells
Special Qualities: +4 turn resistance, alternate form, damage reduction 10/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., dwarf traits, fast healing 5, gaseous form, resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, spider climb, undead traits
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +13
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con Ø, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 13
Skills: Bluff +9, Concentration +14, Hide +2, Knowledge (religion) +2, Listen +12, Move Silently +2, Search +9, Sense Motive +12, Speak Language (giant), Spellcraft +18, Spot +12
Feats: AlertnessB, Combat Casting, Combat ReflexesB, DodgeB, Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Improved InitiativeB, Lightning ReflexesB, Martial Weapon Proficiency (warhammer), Power Attack
Challenge Rating: 16
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Level Adjustment: +8

Spells
Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7/7/6/6/4/4/3; save DC 15+spell level)
0—create water, detect magic, guidance, read magic, resistance, virtue; 1st—cause fear*, command, cure light wounds (2), divine favor, doom, shield of faith; 2nd—aid, cure moderate wounds (2), death knell*, hold person, resist energy, silence; 3rd—contagion*, cure serious wounds (2), mass resist energy, meld into stone, stone shape; 4th—cure critical wounds (2), death ward*, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon, restoration; 5th—extended divine power, righteous might, slay living*, spell resistance; 6th—greater dispel magic, harm*, heal (2); 7th—dictum, disintegrate*, mass death ward

*Domain Spell. Domains: Death and Destruction

Size/Type: Medium humanoid (elf)
Hit Dice: 16d4-16 (48 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 10 (+0 Dex), touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+7
Attack: whip +3 melee (1d3 nonlethal)
Full Attack: whip +3/-2 melee (1d3 nonlethal)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (15 ft. with whip)
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Elven traits, summon familiar
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +10
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 11, Con 8, Int 24, Wis 10, Cha 9
Skills: Appraise +10, Concentration +18, Craft (alchemy) +26, Decipher Script +26, Knowledge (arcana) +26, Knowledge (religion) +13, Listen +4, Search +9, Speak Language (raven), Spellcraft +29, Spot +4, Use Magic Device +0
Feats: AlertnessB, Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (spellcraft), Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Focus (evocation), Widen Spell
Challenge Rating: 16
Alignment: Neutral
Level Adjustment: +0

Spells
Wizard Spells Prepared (4/7/7/11/6/6/5/5/3; save DC 17+spell level; evocation and enchantment save DC 18+spell level)
0—detect magic (3), prestidigitation; 1st—expeditious retreat, feather fall, magic missile* (4), silent image; 2nd—gust of wind, invisibility, protection from arrows, scorching ray*, see invisibility; 3rd—explosive runes, fireball (2), fly, haste, heroism, hold person, lightning bolt* (3), suggestion; 4th—dimensional anchor, greater invisibility, resilient sphere (2), stoneskin, wall of fire*; 5th—cone of cold*, dominate person, empowered fireball, overland flight, polymorph, quickened magic missile; 6th—chain lightning*, disintegrate (2), greater dispel magic, true seeing; 7th—Bugsby's grasping hand*, forcecage, prismatic spray, quickened haste, quickened fireball; 8th—Bugsby's clenched fist*, empowered chain lightning, quickened dimensional anchor

*Specialist Spell. Specialist School: Evocation. Barred Schools: Conjuration, Necromancy


1. Characters get max HP.
2. Characters' ability scores tend toward their racial averages.
3. Characters' prepared spells are those of a typical day. This isn't the day Durkon expects to betray the Order (so he still has some healing spells), and this isn't the day V expects to fight Xykon (so she isn't optimized to fight undead).

(EDIT: the following applies to Vamp-Durkon unless otherwise stated) Durkon surely wins initiative, but at least with the prepared spells I've given him (and he could probably have better ones) I don't see many ways for Durkon to close with V from 60 ft. away and keep her in his reach. He'd have to open up with either hold person or dominate if he wanted to try and engage her in melee, but both target Will (DC 16 and DC 19 respectively) and thus V would probably make her saves. His best chance to end the fight immediately would probably be disintegrate, but if that fails Durkon has no answer to forcecage that keeps him in the fight. Pre-vamp Durkon has it even worse, lacking all these options except hold person, though he does have Thor's lightning which Vamp-Durkon lacks.

[Jay R]

The winner is whoever the plot needs to win.

C'mon, Roy has beaten Xykon, and Xykon has beaten Roy.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think the plot would set up this scenario anyways, so why should it matter here? This is a hypothetical fight, not an event in the comic.

[Jay R]

I don't think the plot would set up this scenario anyways, so why should it matter here? This is a hypothetical fight, not an event in the comic.

That doesn't change the basic point. If either one could win, then in a hypothetically fight, either one could win.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Durkon surely wins initiative, but at least with the prepared spells I've given him (and he could probably have better ones) I don't see many ways for Durkon to close with V from 60 ft. away and keep her in his reach. He'd have to open up with either hold person or dominate if he wanted to try and engage her in melee, but both target Will (DC 16 and DC 19 respectively) and thus V would probably make her saves. His best chance to end the fight immediately would probably be disintegrate, but if that fails Durkon has no answer to forcecage that keeps him in the fight. Pre-vamp Durkon has it even worse, lacking all these options except hold person, though he does have Thor's lightning which Vamp-Durkon lacks.
In one of the Dragon continuity strips from SSDT:


Durkon and Belkar are sat around playing cards while the rest of the order - including V - work down through initiative for a single round of combat until they reach the point where they can act (and a goblin with a really low initiative wanders over to join them). Durkon in particular makes reference to his suffering initiative penalties.


So no - barring surprise, V goes first, and Forcecage ends the battle pretty quickly.

Durkula? Initiative might be closer, but again, Forcecage in the windowless cell version ends it.

[Anarion]

I'm not certain that V would lead with force cage. V is probably confident enough and familiar with Durkon enough to be interested in killing or destroying Durkon, rather than merely imprisoning. That said, I think that V's flight and defensive spells would give her enough time to set up properly vs. Durkon, perhaps using environmental factors to trap him inside a wall of fire or something of that nature.


That doesn't change the basic point. If either one could win, then in a hypothetically fight, either one could win.

You could still give odds. At this point, Zimmerwald statted them, so we could just play it out 20 times and look at the averages.

[orrion]

I'm not certain that V would lead with force cage. V is probably confident enough and familiar with Durkon enough to be interested in killing or destroying Durkon, rather than merely imprisoning. That said, I think that V's flight and defensive spells would give her enough time to set up properly vs. Durkon, perhaps using environmental factors to trap him inside a wall of fire or something of that nature.

Forcecage completely neutralizes Durkon. There's no reason not to lead with it. Then you spend time setting other things up so that when the Forcecage wears off, Durkon is immediately hit with 10 different kinds of traps and spells no matter what he does.

[zimmerwald1915]

So no - barring surprise, V goes first, and Forcecage ends the battle pretty quickly.

Durkula? Initiative might be closer, but again, Forcecage in the windowless cell version ends it.
As I pointed out in my post, I don't really care about considering an un-vampirized Durkon. Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails was printed long before the Vampire template was applied to Durkon. The Vampire template gives a Dexterity bonus and Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, while V has below-average Dexterity for an Elf. Without the template, V and Durkon have Dexterity on par with one another, and either could go first, but with the template, Durkon has enough of an advantage to presume he goes first.


I'm not certain that V would lead with force cage. V is probably confident enough and familiar with Durkon enough to be interested in killing or destroying Durkon, rather than merely imprisoning. That said, I think that V's flight and defensive spells would give her enough time to set up properly vs. Durkon, perhaps using environmental factors to trap him inside a wall of fire or something of that nature.


Forcecage completely neutralizes Durkon. There's no reason not to lead with it. Then you spend time setting other things up so that when the Forcecage wears off, Durkon is immediately hit with 10 different kinds of traps and spells no matter what he does.
If V wants to kill Durkon, leading with forcecage is still a good move for two reasons I've already pointed out.

Unless he wants to rely on disintegrate (or Thor's lightning if you want to talk about Durkon without the template), Durkon needs to close to melee to damage V. V could cast forcecage, move well outside Durkon's attack range (but within the range of V's long-range spells), then either disintegrate/dispel the forcecage herself or let Durkon waste spells doing the same and retaliate with her own spells. If Durkon flees via plane shift (impossible on the Mechane given the dimensional locks unless V allows them to lapse or Durkon dispels them) V still has the advantage because Durkon would need to shift back to the mortal plane to threaten V, and with her "keen people-finding spells" V should have a good idea of Durkon's whereabouts and movements.

Second, as Orrion points out, prep time favors V. As I pointed out, V has better spells for the purpose. No matter what he prepares, Durkon's list doesn't have many ranged options, while V has many, and can make better use of mobility (Durkon can't cast in alternate form or while wind walking, and fly gives V better flight than air walk gives Durkon). And if we're talking V versus Vampire Durkon, V can more readily rely on the Order's aid than Durkon.


You could still give odds. At this point, Zimmerwald statted them, so we could just play it out 20 times and look at the averages.
If anyone wants to do this, bear in mind that I statted Vampire Durkon. The template's adjustments should be easy enough to remove, but it's something to keep in mind if you want to comply strictly with the OP. If I were to play out the fight, I'd have it take place on the deck of the Mechane in flight, with the rest of the Order and the crew locked belowdecks and with the dimensional locks in place, but that's not binding on anyone else.

[davidbofinger]

take place on the deck of the Mechane in flight, with the rest of the Order and the crew locked belowdecks

Haley is scratching her head and wondering why a lock would be relevant, but in fact there may be no need to lock them up. It's an established convention that allies don't get involved in caster fights fought on the deck of the Mechane. But we've already had one such caster fight (even involving V) and it's unlikely the Giant would repeat himself like that. So Mechane's out.

I would play it out inside a dwarven tunnel. V bumps into Durkula when he is causing death and destruction. The others are, ironically, off talking to the high priest of Odin about a resurrection spell.

The initiative penalties on Durkon are relevant as a pre-vampire baseline, isn't that right? Odd the issue isn't discussed in the class and level geekery thread.

[zimmerwald1915]

Haley is scratching her head and wondering why a lock would be relevant, but in fact there may be no need to lock them up. It's an established convention that allies don't get involved in caster fights fought on the deck of the Mechane. But we've already had one such caster fight (even involving V) and it's unlikely the Giant would repeat himself like that. So Mechane's out.

I would play it out inside a dwarven tunnel. V bumps into Durkula when he is causing death and destruction. The others are, ironically, off talking to the high priest of Odin about a resurrection spell.
To be honest I picked the Mechane because it makes a passable, if small arena. Gotta make some concession to the OP after all :smalltongue:


The initiative penalties on Durkon are relevant as a pre-vampire baseline, isn't that right? Odd the issue isn't discussed in the class and level geekery thread.
Well initiative's just a Dexterity check, so Durkon would have a Dex of 9 or less before the template...which is exactly what I've given him. Vampire adds +4 Dex.

EDIT: and checking the thread now that I'm back on my computer, C&LG does cite Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales for Durkon's Dex.

FURTHER EDIT: I've added vanilla Durkon's statblock to the appropriate post. Game scenarios to your hearts' content.

[137beth]

We're comparing pre-vampirization Durkon.

Well, then it's even simpler:
Living Durkon is dead, so V automatically wins without having to do anything. This is like those threads comparing the dead black dragon to Xykon.

[Jay R]

You could still give odds.

... which, as you can see, nobody is doing. The question is, "Who would win?"

The answer remains, "Either of them."

[zimmerwald1915]

... which, as you can see, nobody is doing. The question is, "Who would win?"
We have the tools. We're just lazy busy. Yes, busy, that's it.


The answer remains, "Either of them."
That's true of literally any fight, up to and including random hobgoblin mook v. ancient silver dragon. Doesn't mean people can't have fun discussing it.

[Anarion]

... which, as you can see, nobody is doing. The question is, "Who would win?"

The answer remains, "Either of them."

I'd say based on the last page that V has the clear advantage and I would give odds of maybe 70-30 depending on exact rolls and stats of the characters.

That said

We have the tools. We're just lazy busy. Yes, busy, that's it.


I, for one, am both busy and lazy, so I don't intend to take the time to move this from "eh that sounds about right" to "I can give you the numbers to back my claim." I'm still interested in the topic though. :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Living Durkon is dead
If he is living, then how is he dead?

[prism6691]

Disintegrate would end the fight in one turn for 3 reasons

1. Now that Durkon has a con of 0 he auto fails the save (which normally would not be the case but because Disintegrate affects objects it is((or at least how I thought it worked)))
2. Durkons HP despite now being d12's has no con bonus so its pretty likely his hp is actually lower than what it was would make him very likely to not survive.
3. His touch ac which is all V has to hit with the ranged attack.

So yea, unless Durkon knocks V out turn 1 or somehow catches V without any spells left (Im assuming prepares at least 1 Disintegrate everyday no matter whats expected) V would triumph.

[Jasdoif]

Now that Durkon has a con of 0 he auto fails the save (which normally would not be the case but because Disintegrate affects objects it is((or at least how I thought it worked)))Vampire Durkon (like other undead) doesn't have a Constitution score at all, which is different from having a Con score of 0. In cases where he still needs to make a Fortitude save, like against disintegrate, he can make the save normally, but he doesn't get a bonus or penalty for his Con score because he doesn't have a Con score.

[prism6691]

Vampire Durkon (like other undead) doesn't have a Constitution score at all, which is different from having a Con score of 0. In cases where he still needs to make a Fortitude save, like against disintegrate, he can make the save normally, but he doesn't get a bonus or penalty for his Con score because he doesn't have a Con score.

I wasn't entirely sure if that was the case.

But that means Durkon has a +9 for a fort save of 23 or 24 right? So i think what i said still stands

[Jasdoif]

I wasn't entirely sure if that was the case. Normally if someone has no con you can't affect them with spells that give fort saves. ex. you can't slay living or poision (the spell) a vampire.The general rule is that a creature without a Constitution score is immune to effects that allow Fortitude saves, unless it also affects objects or is harmless. Disintegrate affects objects, so it works normally here.

[A Tad Insane]

Before being vamped, definitely V. Durkon didn't consider himself a full caster and V was so powerful that Rich had to either make his opponents crazy strong or just remove him. Now that Durkon is a vampire and level adjusted to be epic, it's much more in the air. That, along with how he seems to be more magic focused (just an impression) means he he could win, but I would still vote for V. V has a much better head for tactics, and has more mobility (from 30 ft per turn to flight).

[orrion]

Before being vamped, definitely V. Durkon didn't consider himself a full caster and V was so powerful that Rich had to either make his opponents crazy strong or just remove him. Now that Durkon is a vampire and level adjusted to be epic, it's much more in the air. That, along with how he seems to be more magic focused (just an impression) means he he could win, but I would still vote for V. V has a much better head for tactics, and has more mobility (from 30 ft per turn to flight).

If you're talking into account the added Vampire stuff, then you can't really say V has a better head for tactics because nothing has been revealed about how tactically smart the High Priest is.

[zimmerwald1915]

If you're talking into account the added Vampire stuff, then you can't really say V has a better head for tactics because nothing has been revealed about how tactically smart the High Priest is.
The vampire has access to all of Durkon's tactical know-how, has demonstrated some tactical prowess in directing Spiky and the dominated Empire of Blood soldiers, and made good use of his alternate form and spider climb abilities during the escape. As for spells, it managed to find uses for Durkon's remaining prepared spells that Durkon himself didn't know what to do with. Finally, the vampire is an accomplished deceiver, and should be able to apply this in a tactical combat situation (fog spells, darkness spells, meld into stone, summoning a swarm of bats and hiding among them, etc.). I think we have enough to say that at least the vampire is no worse a tactician than Durkon, and is more likely to be better than to be exactly on par.

[davidbofinger]

The vampire has access to all of Durkon's tactical know-how

The vampire has on-demand access to all Durkon's memories. That doesn't mean he can use Durkon's wetware to make decisions for him.

[zimmerwald1915]

The vampire has on-demand access to all Durkon's memories. That doesn't mean he can use Durkon's wetware to make decisions for him.
If the vampire has access to Durkon's memories, he has access to Durkon's education. It does not need to call on those memories in the moment, but could spend its free time, like when the Order is asleep, just going through Durkon's life and extracting what it needs for later use.

[genderlich]

V can cast the 8th-level evocation spell Sunburst, which instantly destroys any undead creature vulnerable to light (like, you know, a vampire) if it fails a Reflex save. Dwarf Clerics don't have the best Reflex. So I'd say there's a pretty huge edge to V, unless Durkon both wins initiative and spends his first turn making sure the spell won't affect him or can't be cast.

EDIT: Or maybe not. I was remembering the Empowered Sunburst she cast in 652 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), but that was from the soul splices. Still, she can cast 8th-level spells, and it's entirely possible she picked it up on her own since then; it would be an entirely logical spell choice since they tend to fight a lot of undead.

[Demoman]

V can cast the 8th-level evocation spell Sunburst, which instantly destroys any undead creature vulnerable to light (like, you know, a vampire) if it fails a Reflex save. Dwarf Clerics don't have the best Reflex. So I'd say there's a pretty huge edge to V, unless Durkon both wins initiative and spends his first turn making sure the spell won't affect him or can't be cast.

EDIT: Or maybe not. I was remembering the Empowered Sunburst she cast in 652 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), but that was from the soul splices. Still, she can cast 8th-level spells, and it's entirely possible she picked it up on her own since then; it would be an entirely logical spell choice since they tend to fight a lot of undead.

Ironically Living Durkon stands a better chance than epic-level challenge Vampire Durkon if V indeed picked up Sunburst.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ironically Living Durkon stands a better chance than epic-level challenge Vampire Durkon if V indeed picked up Sunburst.
Possibly. We don't know how the homebrewed protection from daylight interacts with sunburst.

[Livius]

Possibly. We don't know how the homebrewed protection from daylight interacts with sunburst.

If protection from daylight is any kind of darkness spell then sunburst auto-dispels it, since Malack couldn't cast 9ths from his own spell slots.

[zimmerwald1915]

If protection from daylight is any kind of darkness spell then sunburst auto-dispels it, since Malack couldn't cast 9ths from his own spell slots.
Pretty big "if" there. According to Malack, who ought to know, protection from daylight is an abjuration. Most [darkness] spells are evocation, and I can find only one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/armorOfDarkness.htm) [darkness] spell that is also an abjuration. That spell can only be had through a domain.

[gooddragon1]

Hey guys, another vs thread. (After this, Haley vs Elan) This one is for the two most powerful members of the team. Mechanically and realistically, arena battle starting 60 ft from each other, no holds barred, both want the other dead. (Does realistically even work, all V does is make the laws of physics cry) Also note, It's Durkon, not Durkula.

Mechanically is pretty tough. Durkon's Armor is going to do nothing but maybe give him an occasional check penalty. V could fly but. I honestly don't know here. But if Durkon grounds V and is in melee range, we all know what would happen.

Realistically I still don't have any idea. (realistically doesn't mean no spells, it means that game mechanics don't apply)

And as always, go nuts.

60 explosive runes on stamps stickied to a shield (30 on front, 30 on back). V drops the shield directly above durkon (a move action) [more like intending for it to drop 5 feet in front of him]. V casts dispel magic at minimum caster level of 5 and fails most if not all of the checks. Durkon takes 180d6 damage with reflex saves halving it to 90d6. I seriously doubt he has the HP to survive it.

V casts invisibility in advance and stays out of true vision range. Also casts it on the shield.

-Wizards win because of preparation
-Explosive runes last forever
-V is smart enough to do this
-V has all of these spells
-A shield is inexpensive for V (even a crude one will do)
-This is an optimization classic. It's like bidding 1$ in price is right in the good old days... people secretly hated you for it but it's a proven winner a lot of times.

Now, if V hadn't banned conjuration...

...quickened dimension door something then dispel as a standard. Durkon literally wouldn't see it coming because neither of those spells is hostile and he wouldn't get any rolls at all if you assume he's in reading range of the runes. If you maximize them and have high enough caster level it's basically killing him without rolling dice. You just say: Do you have at least 550 HP? No? You're dead. But then, wizards do tend to do stuff like that with optimization. Just ask tippy.

EDIT: Follow up with a forcecage and wait 2 hours.

[Amphiox]

So what happens if Force Cage and Hold Person are cast simultaneously and both connect?

Do they sit there twiddling their thumbs until the spells wear off?

[zimmerwald1915]

So what happens if Force Cage and Hold Person are cast simultaneously and both connect?
What is this "simultaneously" of which you speak? Combat is turn-based, everybody knows that :smalltongue:


Do they sit there twiddling their thumbs until the spells wear off?
If they do, V gets free first based on the spells' durations, unless Durkon dispels or disintegrates the forcecage. The same is true if Durkon dominates V, though in that case the difference in duration is down to Durkon having fewer caster levels for purposes of his ability than V has for purposes of her spell.

[Vinyadan]

Before being vamped, definitely V. Durkon didn't consider himself a full caster and V was so powerful that Rich had to either make his opponents crazy strong or just remove him.

Yea, it's like if the universe were trying to establish some kind of arbitrary equality between mages and non magic users! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html)