Crusader Tank through 20

[isotunknown]

I've been asked to fill in a role for an upcoming adventure. I have rarely in my playing experience played sword and board types and have never used the Tome of Battle. People keep directing me to the Crusader. And I'm up for a challenge, but I am also in a bit over my head. I read the relevant sections of Tome of Battle, I have read several handbooks, but still don't quite have a sense of how to build this sucker. (I've been told we'll be going from 1-29 on this adventure.)

I'm getting the sense that there are two dominant versions: lockdown and a more traditional hack and slasher. I'd be obliged if someone would explain to me how these builds differ and especially how the former tripper works (is is all about the tripping or do you dish out the damage as well?).

If people could point me to good builds that I could study, I'd be obliged. I want to get a sense of the feat progressions, how I might consider maneuvers and when to replace them, and what kinds of items I should prioritize for different builds.

This is a highly optimized group and I don't want to let them down. Many thanks for helping a guy who's in the arctic in his boxer shorts.

[OldTrees1]

Lockdown is though taking the following feats:


Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise

Improved Trip


Knock-down (optional)
Standstill

Combat Reflexes gives you the additional attacks of opportunity you need (although 1+Dex mod is still not a lot)

Improved Trip lets you attack anyone you trip
Knock-down lets you trip anyone you damage (10 damage minimum)

Standstill lets you target Ref saves if your foe is too strong/large to trip.

[Fenryr]

Two sample builds. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7656.msg251690#msg251690)

Not a Crusader thingy by itself but useful to understand all the available options. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8774.0)

About magic items you may consider this general overview.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851)
Be warned that you need a second role. Tripping/Tanking will not be possible ALL the time. Probably your best bet is to support or deal damage.

[Nihilarian]

Take White Raven Tactics. If you do nothing else, do that.

Do you know anything about the other characters?

[isotunknown]

Thanks.

@Nihilarian: My understanding is that the other three are playing Wizard, Druid, and Factorum. When you say "Take White Raven Tactics", I assume you mean that I should select that maneuver as soon as possible. Of course, the way crusaders work, I can't rely on using it except ever few rounds, right?

@Fenryr Thanks for the links. So I get that my role is to be the meat shield to enable other party members to survive and do their thing as well. And at the same time as I'm interposing myself, I should also be meting out the damage. Do you have thoughts on what other roles I could play and how I might do so?

@OldTrees1 Thanks for the tips. So, assuming I'm a human with two flaws, I can take four of those five feats right off the bat, which strikes me as a good idea, if that's the right starting package. What would you suggest to follow?

[Nihilarian]

If the Factotum animal the Druid are melee (or if the druid summons a lot of creatures) consider a bardsader build.

[isotunknown]

Will do. What exactly does that look like? If you have an example, I'd be obliged.

[Fenryr]

Thanks.
@Fenryr Thanks for the links. So I get that my role is to be the meat shield to enable other party members to survive and do their thing as well. And at the same time as I'm interposing myself, I should also be meting out the damage. Do you have thoughts on what other roles I could play and how I might do so?
Your main problem is when enemies are too big and/or fly (underwater can be a pain too). Standstill might help with those things. That's why I suggest a second role to fill when things are impossible to tank.

Depending on the rest of the party your second role could be damage dealer (Power Attack and your Furious Counterstrike is a simple start) or even the party face. Up to you.

You might even get a Cleric level (or anything with Turn Undead) and focus on Ruby Knight Vindicator (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4330). This way you have lots of options to be useful. You might be less tanky but you have Cleric spells and an option to break action economy.

[Nihilarian]

Will do. What exactly does that look like? If you have an example, I'd be obliged.I don't have a specific build, but there's an Inspire Courage handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936.0). Basically, with some optimization you can grant everyone something like +8 attack and +8d6+8 damage to each attack (melee or ranged, but White Raven is more focused on melee so that's preferable). When you add Inspire Courage to the various melee bonuses you can grant via White Raven maneuvers, you and your party will wreck things.

[Windstorm]

2 level warblade dip for uncanny dodge and iron heart maneuvers is more than worth it. take it sometime after 8th level at least, that way you can grab Iron Heart Surge and also qualify for stormguard warrior. (every 2 crusader levels you can wait increases your warblade initiator level by 1)

thicket of blades and stormguard with a decent dex is a fantastic way to add to attack and damage while providing you with lots of control options (take the aoo and trip or forgo it for extra wallop).

if your character is starting at level 20 and level buyoff rules are allowed, consider templates, as they will provide you with some decent boost for minimal loss (half celestial is very nice, and would put you at 172,000xp/L19) as long as your DM is following correct xp rules that imbalance should right itself fairly quickly.

shortlist of reasons half-celestial suggested: nonmagical flight, spell-like abilities (summon monster IX with your level....), very nice ability boosts, and fits well with existing crusader flavor. Improved flight feat just makes the gravy train better.

Below is a crusader build I was playing with a few days ago as a result of some other thought experiments, you might find some useful ideas from it. (disclaimer: not provided for use as is and probably contains an error or two with it not being super-carefully constructed) warblade and crusader maneuver lists aren't separated either.
Dropbox Link (https://www.dropbox.com/s/pqomn0sjuuf5k5h/TorsenHammersmith.pdf)

[OldTrees1]

@OldTrees1 Thanks for the tips. So, assuming I'm a human with two flaws, I can take four of those five feats right off the bat, which strikes me as a good idea, if that's the right starting package. What would you suggest to follow?

As a Crusader you should get Extra Granted Manuever at some point.

I like to add Power Attack -> Improved Bullrush -> Knockback in the mix but that requires either Goliath or Large size.

I would pick up both flight and reach. The quickest path to both is

Aberrant Blood (1st level only)

Inhuman Reach

Star Spawn

However Dragonborn is a +0LA "template" that removes your human bonus feat in exchange for better flight than Star Spawn.

Exotic Weapon proficiency is nice for Spiked Chain.

When you have BAB+12, take Robilar’s Gambit. Now your prisoners are hesitant to even attack you.

Only take Defensive Sweep if you are not depleting your AoOs via Thicket of Blades + Robilar's Gambit. You should be saving your AoOs to punish things like movement or attacks, not inaction.

[isotunknown]

I hear you about the flight. I'm still thinking Human is the way to go. I wonder if I have to focus on using a magic item, like wings of flying, to get my flight, or get a flying mount. I do realize that I'll have to wait some time to get those. Then again, going dragonborn isn't all bad either.

I suppose another option, which I hadn't thought about, is to have a back up ranged weapon. I'm not sure what would be especially good for a Crusader. I wondered whether I might try something like a harpoon that would allow me to catch my quarry and drag it toward me. (I'll have to look at how to do that.)

[docnessuno]

Improved trip / Knockdown are not really needed (but nice optional pieces), the core crusader trick for battlefield controls is usually:

20+ reach (large / inhuman reach + spiked chain)
Thicket of blades
Combat reflexes (with a decent Dex or items boosting the n° of AoO)
Stand still

Another interesting variation is adding a knight dip (3 or 4 levels) in the mix, to get Bulwark of Defense (an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain). The 4th level Knight features are not bad either (No speed penalty in medium armor, meaning no penalty with mithral full/heavy plate and an AoE Knight challenge that could be useful despite the absimal DC for non-knights).

[Person_Man]

Crusader 20 is very difficult to screw up. So no matter what Feats/Maneuvers/Stances you choose, you'll probably be fine.

Suggestions to consider:

My suggestion is to pick one or two melee combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) you like. Pick at least one thing that deals respectable damage and at least one thing that locks down or pushes enemies away.

Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability: +4 Will Saves, +8 to resist bull rush/trips/grapple/etc, and Fast Healing 4 while in combat. PHBII.

Combat Panache: Inflicts your Cha bonus as an AC penalty on one enemy. Great for boss fights. PHBII.

Fear combos (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809): Lots of options here. You're Cha based, so this is an easy way to keep lots of weak enemies away from you. Just don't overdo it. Tons of enemies are immune.

Fearless Destiny: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. A lot cheaper then Resurrection. Races of Destiny pg 152.

Blind-Fight->Pierce Magical Concealment->Mage Slayer: Can be very important at very high levels, when pretty much every BBEG has a miss chance and magical abilities. Comp Arcane pg 81.

[Zetapup]

I hear you about the flight. I'm still thinking Human is the way to go. I wonder if I have to focus on using a magic item, like wings of flying, to get my flight, or get a flying mount. I do realize that I'll have to wait some time to get those. Then again, going dragonborn isn't all bad either.

Off the top of my head, one of the cheapest ways to get good flight is the feathered wings graft from Fiend Folio. It's 10,000gp for great flight but if you're nonevil, you have to make will saves each day or suffer some penalties. There's also a -6 to charisma based checks against nonevil characters. Amazing for evil characters, decent for neutral characters, there's probably better options for good characters. If you're good, dragonborn's prolly better.

[Pex]

The Crusader stance progression is broken, as in sucks. You can't get a 3rd level stance until 8th level, a 5th or 6th level stance until 14th level, and you can't get an 8th level stance at all. All the adepts have broken stance progression. It's the one glaring mistake of the book.

Solutions:

1) Bite the bullet and spend feats on Extra Stance when you need to.

2) Multiclass two levels before reaching 8th level in Crusader. Your stance progression is fixed. You still need to take Extra Stance for a 3rd level and 6th level stance, but you'll get your 5th and 8th level stances by progression. Warblade is probably best to keep up the BAB and hit points and get some nice maneuvers, especially Diamond Mind Concentration saving throws, but Iron Heart is good too. Fighter is also good for the bonus feats.

3) Ask DM for house rule to delay stance progression a level at level 2. This has the same effect as multiclassing two levels.

4) My personal preference, ask DM for house rule allowing adepts to change a stance known at level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter. Still need to spend a feat for a 6th level stance, but it's so worth it. They're juicy.

[OldTrees1]

I hear you about the flight. I'm still thinking Human is the way to go. I wonder if I have to focus on using a magic item, like wings of flying, to get my flight, or get a flying mount. I do realize that I'll have to wait some time to get those. Then again, going dragonborn isn't all bad either.

I suppose another option, which I hadn't thought about, is to have a back up ranged weapon. I'm not sure what would be especially good for a Crusader. I wondered whether I might try something like a harpoon that would allow me to catch my quarry and drag it toward me. (I'll have to look at how to do that.)
I would not wait until you can purchase a flying magic item.
The cheapest (800gp) is only usable for 1min/day and requires ride.
Better/longer items cost significantly more.

Having a ranged weapon is a good idea, but it is hard to make it a worthwhile ranged plan. Harpoon might work (I have no knowledge about it).

[Rebel7284]

The best Crusader build is almost certainly the Ruby Knight Vindicator. Not only does it fix the stance progression, allowing you to get Thicket of Blades on time, but it adds the power of cleric casting which is great for tanking and grants extra actions at RKV 7!

Besides that, they do make a nice tank with Standstill+reach+attacks of opportunity allowing them to lock anyone in place (standstill is much more reliable than tripping IMO, but you can certainly do both!) and then you can attack and heal with the same maneuvers!

[OldTrees1]

The best Crusader build is almost certainly the Ruby Knight Vindicator. Not only does it fix the stance progression, allowing you to get Thicket of Blades on time, but it adds the power of cleric casting which is great for tanking and grants extra actions at RKV 7!

Besides that, they do make a nice tank with Standstill+reach+attacks of opportunity allowing them to lock anyone in place (standstill is much more reliable than tripping IMO, but you can certainly do both!) and then you can attack and heal with the same maneuvers!

Agreed on the RKV.

Sidenote: Tripping is often preferred because it reduces movement, is a debuff , and lets you do 1-2 attacks worth of damage including on-hit effects (like knockback) or on-2 hits effects (like Daze).

[Adverb]

I'm really curious to see what recommendations have for this sort of character above ECL 20. I never play there, but I feel like ToB doesn't scale to epic well.

[OldTrees1]

I'm really curious to see what recommendations have for this sort of character above ECL 20. I never play there, but I feel like ToB doesn't scale to epic well.

IF(DM allows/uses Epic Spellcasting)
{
Use Epic Spellcasting
}
ELSE
{
???
}

[TuggyNE]

IF(DM allows/uses Epic Spellcasting)
{
Use Epic Spellcasting
}
ELSE
{
???
}

I would use something a little different.
if (EPIC_SPELLCASTING) {
try {
EPIC_SPELLCASTING = false;
}
catch (DMStubbornnessException e) {
// Oh well.
logger.write("I tried.");
buildConstraints.add(new IsFullCasterCondition);
featPlan.add(Feats.EpicSpellcasting, 21);
}
}

:smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

I would use something a little different.
:smalltongue:

I like that code better.

[Nettlekid]

Have you heard of the Idiot Crusader build? It's a bit dubious, so check with people here/your DM if it works, but if it does, it's rather silly and quite effective if you want to churn out your favorite maneuvers like White Raven Tactics and Strike of Righteous Vitality.

It works by taking a bit of Crusader, a bit of another Initiator (Warblade works well for maneuver prereq synergy) and then taking a ToB Prestige Class which progresses Maneuvers Known and Maneuvers Readied. In the PrC section, it mentions that Crusaders gain additional Maneuvers Granted when the get more Maneuvers Readied in this way. Now, ToB initiators keep track of maneuvers separately. This is the dubious part. Apply the maneuvers known to Warblade, and maneuvers granted to Crusader. I don't think that's disallowed, but I don't know if it's explicitly allowed either, so that's the thing to check.

If it works, your Warblade side will know lots of maneuvers, while your Crusader side will know only a handful (but you can toss in some high-level ones at the end.) You are granted more maneuvers than you know, so you get all of them. Use whichever you like. Next turn you can't draw any more, so shuffle them all back in and draw...all of them again. You have all your maneuvers (on the Crusader side) readied always. This can be interesting.

[Particle_Man]

There are Shadow maneuvers with no prerequisites that allow limited teleportation, which is nice. RKV or feats can get you those. I like the move action one (and what else will you do with the move action anyhow?).

[Nihilarian]

There are Shadow maneuvers with no prerequisites that allow limited teleportation, which is nice. RKV or feats can get you those. I like the move action one (and what else will you do with the move action anyhow?).Teleport 50 ft as a swift action even in an antimagic field!

Shadow Blink is great.

[Particle_Man]

Oh, if you do a lot of flying you might avoid the stone dragon maneuvers and stances, as they tend to work when you are on the ground and often when you are on the ground and not moving around.

If you are human and hate burning you would take extra stance and extra maneuver and get that stance that gives you fire resistance (and eventual immunity) from the Desert Wind school.

Out of the box, but you could look at the Azurin race (Magic of Incarnum, human variant that still gets extra feat but loses extra skill), and then take a feat either that gets you a soulmeld (which you can put your 1 essentia point into) or a feat that lets you put essentia points into better smiting, or giving you limited blindsense 10' (living opponents only).

Clarion Commander isn't bad for a tactical feat, and gives you something to do with a move action.

[ShurikVch]

Crusader Tank? :smallbiggrin:
Gargantuan construct...

Land Raider! (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Crusader)
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120524010936/warhammer40k/images/3/3f/LandRaiderCrusader00.png

[isotunknown]

Glad to see the boards back. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Rebel7284]

I'm really curious to see what recommendations have for this sort of character above ECL 20. I never play there, but I feel like ToB doesn't scale to epic well.

The answer is still RKV. =)

Also, in high epic, TOB can be an amusing choice due to to the +1/2 class level for other classes. Taking a level of Warblade at level 33 gives you 9th level maneuvers from a single dip.

[Particle_Man]

The answer is still RKV. =)

Also, in high epic, TOB can be an amusing choice due to to the +1/2 class level for other classes. Taking a level of Warblade at level 33 gives you 9th level maneuvers from a single dip.

Well, except for Mountain Tombstone Strike, you still have prerequisites to worry about. :smallsmile:

[Adverb]

Sure, but at level 33, are there many strikes worth bothering with? IHS and WRT never get old, but...