Advice for a silly gestalt build

[Nishant]

So, in my last thread I decided to make a lv.20 gestalt build based on The Beastmaster and Druid class. I recognize this is completely optimized from the very concept, but hey, it sounds freaking hilarious to me, so meh.

The framework thusfar;

Race: Strongheart Halfling

starting attributes

Str 11, con 15, wis 17, dex 16, int 16, cha 14

Templates; None applied, but up to +6LA allowed

Levels; lv 10 Druid/fighter, lv.10 druid/Beastmaster(Complete Adventurer)

Things to note; the fighter is there for extra feats, or as a placeholder; other classes are accepted in it's place, so go ahead and recommend things to take it's place to better fit the idea or make it more ridiculous. either works for me:smallsmile:

The idea itself;

The idea is to make a druid at full power with several overpowered animal companions, one as a mount/charger, and the other three(four if I get another through the wild cohort feat) act as grapplers, pouncers,or a firebreathing T-rex with lazer eyes(Mostly kidding on this last one, but hey, if we can make it happen why the hell not?) This would be the main focus of the build, as well as general mounted combat and natural spell so I can do more of the 'Druid thing'. I'm also not sure how to properly stack the Beastmaster with druid in gestalt (Lv. 33, 26, 23, and 20 animal companions?)

Haven't thought of magic items yet, but I'm sure I can figure that out with a look in the Magic Item Compendium.

So, Lords of madness and optimization, let us give life to this monstrosity of a build!

[Tevesh]

You can't PrC with Gestalt. That would be silly talk.

If your DM is fine with PrC Gestalt, I'd recommend replacing Fighter for something higher tier unless you want Dungeoncrasher Fighter.

I only suggest ignoring your preference for Fighter because you went onto an Internet Message Board for advice on how to improve your character. Choose something higher tier: ToB/Factotum/something.

[Nishant]

Fine by me, though I'ts only there as a placeholder/for feats (I have read the tier system, thanks to this very forum).

My DM lets PrC be used in gestalt, which is why I put it up.

[eggynack]

You can't PrC with Gestalt. That would be silly talk.

Yes you can. You just can't gestalt on both sides at the same level. You probably shouldn't take beastmaster levels though, because they're really, and often surprisingly, bad. For example, to your question of how your beastmaster and druid levels stack for the purposes of your later animal companions, the answer is that they don't, because animal companions after the first one are based purely on beastmaster level. So, that animal companion you get at level 20, as a capstone, will be the same one you got at druid 1. Natural bond is quite good, wild cohort is decent, the first level of beastmaster is rather bad, and later levels of beastmaster are ludicrously bad.

So, I would advise trying to aim towards a small number of animal companions, and optimizing those. In addition to natural bond (which doesn't work with multiple companions), you may want to consider exalted companion to add VoP to your animal companions, companion spellbond to make buffing your AC more efficient, and wild cohort isn't the worst thing. As for the other side, Tevesh is correct that you could be doing better than fighter. Even something like paladin would at least add to your companion count, and stuff like what he mentioned would work as well. Incidentally, I'm rather confused by your gestalt notation. Is that supposed to indicate druid 20//fighter 10/beastmaster 10?

[Nishant]

Pardon, yes that is. Sorry I typed it in poor format. I'm still a bit new at this. As for Paladin, the code they put is quite strict, and I hate having to rely on a DM's mood if I do anything remotely questionable, or am put in a tight situation where I fall either way. (Like the Exalted Deeds example; honor love, or fulfill your duty. failure to do either and you fall) Perhaps ToB?

Although, I'm glad you told me about the beast master thing, because that was the major point of this build.

[eggynack]

Yeah, the paladin thing was actually a lapse in brain power, cause of the whole alignment thing. ToB would work fine, whether you're going warblade or swordsage (though not crusader, cause alignment), as would factotum, or an incarnum class. As for the beastmaster thing, I think that ten levels would at least get you one ultra-companion, but yeah, not worth your time.

[Tevesh]

Swordsage for Setting Sun School so while you're turning into awesome Grapplers, you can initiate manoeuvres that rely on your Grappling modifier.

So yeah, turn into a Kung Fu Panda.

Edit: Also, if you with the Unarmed Variant, you apply Wis to AC. I hear Druids like Wis for Spells. Hmm... That's interesting, you keep that high Wis when you transform, hiking your AC even more so.

[Nishant]

Hm... perhaps I can modify the leadership feat somehow to get a special cohort? I'll figure it out. any ideas for templates, though? I'm sure there are plenty with crazy abilities to set up this build. firesouled may mess with it, or perhaps a half-x template.. I dunno.


Swordsage for Setting Sun School so while you're turning into awesome Grapplers, you can initiate manoeuvres that rely on your Grappling modifier.

So yeah, turn into a Kung Fu Panda.

Edit: Also, if you with the Unarmed Variant, you apply Wis to AC. I hear Druids like Wis for Spells. Hmm... That's interesting, you keep that high Wis when you transform, hiking your AC even more so.

This sounds awesome. I approve

[Seerow]

If beastmaster is that bad even in gestalt, you could maybe go for a Gestalt variant of the Supermount.

[Tevesh]

Winged, Savage and Saint are awesome ways to increase your Wisdom.

Saint is probably the most broken Template you can get. If your DM lets you and you don't mind breaking his game... TAKE THIS!

[Nishant]

If beastmaster is that bad even in gestalt, you could maybe go for a Gestalt variant of the Supermount.

Supermount? Elaborate, please? I'm quite interested.

[eggynack]

Saint is probably the most broken Template you can get. If your DM lets you and you don't mind breaking his game... TAKE THIS!
Indeed, especially because it fits in well with the always awesome hyper-good druid archetype. It's a relevant thing in this case, because, as I mentioned earlier, exalted companion to put VoP on an animal companion is one of the cooler chunks of animal companion optimization out there.

[Tevesh]

Supermount is when you take two different classes that grant Mounts/Animal Companions. Then you take a feat so the two classes stack. So, for example, if you have Paladin 10/Ranger 10, your mount as a Paladin would get bonuses equal to be level 20 and your Ranger's animal companion (who is the mount) would be equal to level 20.

It can get quite disgusting.

If I went with your build, I'd also make sure to include Fist of the Forest, just so you get Con to AC. This way you're getting Con, Dex and Wis to AC. So when you transform into something that has a +10 Constitution modifier, your AC begins to sky rocket instead of plummet from the size modifiers.

[Nishant]

heard of saint, but what is the 'Savage' Template?


Supermount is when you take two different classes that grant Mounts/Animal Companions. Then you take a feat so the two classes stack. So, for example, if you have Paladin 10/Ranger 10, your mount as a Paladin would get bonuses equal to be level 20 and your Ranger's animal companion (who is the mount) would be equal to level 20.

It can get quite disgusting.

If I went with your build, I'd also make sure to include Fist of the Forest, just so you get Con to AC. This way you're getting Con, Dex and Wis to AC. So when you transform into something that has a +10 Constitution modifier, your AC begins to sky rocket instead of plummet from the size modifiers.

That sounds evil and magnificent as well. Not sure How I'll implement supermount here though

[SliceandDiceKid]

I would just like to say I had planned a gestalt beastmaster, but was greatly disheartened to realize how incredibly weak the additional ACs were going to be.
I FEEL YOUR PAIN AND SYMPATHIZE WITH YOU
I am currently playing a druid gestalt dipping several random things with 4 prestige classes. If xp penalties aren't an issue, go full druid one side and just dip lots of things for incredible bonuses. Barbarian is amazing to mix with wild shape.

I'm aiming for crazy stupid unarmed damage.

1monk
2rogue
3fist of the forest (great PrC) complete champion
A few other race specific, then
Shou disciple

Right now as a half giant using shileghlah (lvl3) I deal 3d6+str per hit. That will be replaced in a few levels by outlandish unarmed damage.

If all else fails, utilize eggynack's advice with reckless abandon.

Thanks again, egg. The build is fantastic!

[eggynack]

If I went with your build, I'd also make sure to include Fist of the Forest, just so you get Con to AC. This way you're getting Con, Dex and Wis to AC. So when you transform into something that has a +10 Constitution modifier, your AC begins to sky rocket instead of plummet from the size modifiers.
Y'know, people talk about this high constitution animal form thing a lot, and I'm not sure that it's entirely true. Granted, the beatstick forms tend towards a +4 modifier or higher, but I'm not sure that +10's are all that common. Even legendary animals from MM II top out at a +8. It's not a thing I look at all that much, honestly.

[Tevesh]

Sorry, I meant to say Feral Template (and Winged) are both from Savage Species. I keep thinking it's Savage because of the title Savage Species, but no, the Template is Feral.

Feral is basically a 'Tarzan' a creature that was 'raised by wolves' or perhaps never met civilization.

It gives you more AC, movement, special attacks, darkvision and fast healing. +Str, Con, Wis, -Dex, Int. It's LA+1.

If your DM is willing to let you get up to +6 LA for free. Feral Winged Saint is only +5. Perhaps Mineral Warrior for the last +6? I think it's +1.

But again, take this level of cheese with caution. I've been playing a really high level game so I've learned a few dirty tricks. Also, eggynack and many other forum members have been really helpful.

Edit: @ eggynack: Well, as an opponent for the PCs, I did make a Master of Many Forms (in fact, I think you helped me in that particular thread), and when you get outside of animal forms, then the +1s get really dirty. Also, some Outsiders (with that Eberron PrC) have some really good stats for their HD. So yeah, maybe +10 Con is an exaggeration for normal Druid the shapes are out there.

Edit2: While Mineral Warrior is +1 LA I can't suggest it due to how unsynergistic it is after going through Underdark. You'd lose Fly and it's -Wis.

[eggynack]

I think then, that it is time to go into research mode for a brief period of time in search for maximized stats from wild shape, with the focus being on high constitution. Probably something I should do anyways. And thanks folks, for the path of druidry is always a fun one.

[Nishant]

I forgot to mention that we don't believe in multiclass xp penalties, but I don't think I'll take saint if it is as broken as you all say it is. However, winged and Feral seems like it could be fun. Perhaps a chaotic neutral Druid then, and utilize what you've told me? I really hope I don't have to give up my mad dreams of crazy stupid mounts in the process though.

[eggynack]

Well, as the ancient scholars once said, you only need one animal companion to have a crazy stupid mount. Something to keep in mind, I think. Maybe run halfling druid substitution levels (RotW, 157) for increased riding ability, though I've never been the biggest fan of that ACF.

[Tevesh]

You could always turn into the mount and with Leadership have a Knight or somebody ride you.

That is part of the Supermount Handbook.

So Kung Fu Mount with Knight/Paladin companion. Actually, what might be better is an Archer of some kind so they're not gimped if they can't climb aboard the PC Express. If they go with Scout and your group rules against WotC Customer Service on Skirmish attacks, your companion could get a crap load of attacks. (WotC says if you don't move, you can't Skirmish - so no riding and Skirmishing).

The other option is take something like the Fleshraker (arguably best Animal Companion, period), grab Leadership and get a Halfing. Give him Halfling Outrider class levels and be a dinosaur riding monstrosity while you turn into a Kung Fu Panda.

[Nishant]

Well, as the ancient scholars once said, you only need one animal companion to have a crazy stupid mount.

Perhaps I should make it a Fleshraker companion and chuck venomfire onto it?

[eggynack]

Found it. The dire elephant (MM II, 75) runs 30 constitution. It is, unfortunately, gargantuan, which requires either megalodon empowerment (Storm, 118) or master of many forms (CAdv, 58), as well as the ability to become a creature with 20 HD, either by level or item, but it exists, and it is cool.

Perhaps I should make it a Fleshraker companion and chuck venomfire onto it?
It's always a plan, and a strong one at that, though it has a small risk of book throwing.

[Nishant]

You could always turn into the mount and with Leadership have a Knight or somebody ride you.

That is part of the Supermount Handbook.

So Kung Fu Mount with Knight/Paladin companion. Actually, what might be better is an Archer of some kind so they're not gimped if they can't climb aboard the PC Express. If they go with Scout and your group rules against WotC Customer Service on Skirmish attacks, your companion could get a crap load of attacks. (WotC says if you don't move, you can't Skirmish - so no riding and Skirmishing).

The other option is take something like the Fleshraker (arguably best Animal Companion, period), grab Leadership and get a Halfing. Give him Halfling Outrider class levels and be a dinosaur riding monstrosity while you turn into a Kung Fu Panda.

More ninja-ed. It's kind of funny, given I had thought about that myself before (why I chose halfling for the class, As well as dungeon accessibility)

Luckily my DM is a real loose guy, as he personally loves the Master of Many Forms Prestige more than I do.

[Tevesh]

Yeah, I'd put Venomfire'd Fleshrakers on the same scale as Saint.

Perhaps come to your DM and ask for him to OK or nay it?

If he's expecting everyone to be Saints (he did give +6 LA away for free in a GESTALT game), then you could be screwing yourself.

[Nishant]

If he's expecting everyone to be Saints (he did give +6 LA away for free in a GESTALT game), then you could be screwing yourself.

Generally speaking, he's okay with that kind of thing, but he does enforce user-discretion. With what I'm thinking about role play wise, the saint is a great template, but wouldn't line up character wise. However, the stupid powerful mount being ridden upon a kung fu panda (Or other martial arts animal, but I Friggin' love Jack Black) is, albeit more comedic than serious

Sidenote, if we're all making this abomination together, perhaps we should name it together? I really like how the community is, even when I've only been around for a few hours.

[MadGreenSon]

Instead of being a Saint, go for the dark backstory of being formerly evil, be a Sanctified, Feral Winged Mineral Warrior.:smallbiggrin:

The Sanctified template takes nothing away from the others and you'll have both the fun abilities and flavorful RP fodder with your dark past that you're trying to lay to rest/live down/try and be better than.

Plus you'll have laserbeam eyes.

[Nishant]

WUT. I know lazerbeam eyes probably don't do much at lv. 20, BUT LAZERBEAM EYES?!

[MadGreenSon]

WUT. I know lazerbeam eyes probably don't do much at lv. 20, BUT LAZERBEAM EYES?!

I know right? LAZORS! (page 186 Book of Exalted Deeds, the lasers will do 10d6 at your level ranged touch 60' range only works on evil, untyped energy):smalltongue:

[Nishant]

What about Winged Feral Spellwarped?

Something I remembered last night is that I can request lycanthropy without additional hit dice. given the build, it may get shut down, but he tends not to be completely against it. Does hybrid form mix with wildwhape?

Edit; So far, the conjoined consensus of this build is as follows-

druid 18//swordsage(unarmed variant) 10/ master of many forms 10/ fist of the forest 2 Feral winged spellwarped strongheart halfling

Stats without applied templates
Str 11, con 15, wis 17, dex 16, int 16, cha 14
Stats with applied templates
Str 15, con 19, wis 21, dex 20, int 20, cha 14
(5 points to be allocated via level)

Feats thus far; (Master of Many forms overwrites Natural spell as a class feature; woo!)
Lv 1-Alertness, Endurance(bonus feat from race)
lv.3 Power Attack
lv.6 Leadership
lv.9 great fortitude
lv.12 Natural Bond
lv.15 Bestial charge/ Assume supernatural Ability/ open slot
lv.18 Frozen Wild Shape(?)/ multiattack/ assume supernatural ability

[Metahuman1]

Take levels in Druid, and then two levels in Prestige Paladin and then take ten levels in Halfling Outrider. That's 30 levels of mount/companion advancement and ability's in one mount/companion and in 20 levels on one side of the stalt.

On the other side, all three tome of battle classes are good. Or, for something different, I'm fond of a Bard with Bardic Knack, Jack of all Trades, two levels of Seeker of the song and heavily Optimized Inspire Courage with Sonic based Dragonfire Inspiration, or a Martial Rogue who AFC's away Trap Sense.

[eggynack]

What about Winged Feral Spellwarped?

Something I remembered last night is that I can request lycanthropy without additional hit dice. given the build, it may get shut down, but he tends not to be completely against it. Does hybrid form mix with wildwhape?

Edit; So far, the conjoined consensus of this build is as follows-

druid 18//swordsage(unarmed variant) 10/ master of many forms 10/ fist of the forest 2 Feral winged spellwarped strongheart halfling

Stats without applied templates
Str 11, con 15, wis 17, dex 16, int 16, cha 14
Stats with applied templates
Str 15, con 19, wis 21, dex 20, int 20, cha 14
(5 points to be allocated via level)

Feats thus far; (Master of Many forms overwrites Natural spell as a class feature; woo!)
Lv 1-Alertness, Endurance(bonus feat from race)
lv.3 Power Attack
lv.6 Leadership
lv.9 great fortitude
lv.12 Natural Bond
lv.15 Bestial charge/ Assume supernatural Ability/ open slot
lv.18 Frozen Wild Shape(?)/ multiattack/ assume supernatural ability
It seems pretty reasonable, though there's a couple of issues, I think. First, master of many forms actually doesn't obviate the need for natural spell, because shifter's speech fills only verbal components, while natural spell fills verbal, somatic, and material/focus components. Second, I'm not entirely sure how this build looks from a class level. It looks like you have 18 levels of druid on one side, and 22 levels of stuff, as well as a bunch of templates, on the other side.

Third, you should prolly have the supernatural abilities you're assuming be explicit, cause that feat's a big deal. And, finally, I'd probably switch out bestial charge for something that's not that, because it doesn't look like that feat actually does anything. You don't yet have any summoner feats, so greenbound (LEoF, 8) or rashemi elemental summoning (UE, 45) could be a good choice. It's worth note that it looks like druid and MoMF levels actually do stack for wild shape purposes, even though they happen at the same time, so you might be able to do some crazy things with that. I haven't looked into it yet, but you should be on the lookout for forms with HD that would normally be unreachable, and that are really cool.

[Darkweave31]

You could (as an alternative to taking beastmaster levels just for more animal companions) have your one animal companion as a druid for your main fighter and supplement/support it by purchasing/taming/befriending/other_method_of_acquisition other animals, utilizing the handle animal skill. Train them to be warbeasts and enjoy as your enemies are torn apart by your menagerie.

[Nishant]

It seems pretty reasonable, though there's a couple of issues, I think. First, master of many forms actually doesn't obviate the need for natural spell, because shifter's speech fills only verbal components, while natural spell fills verbal, somatic, and material/focus components. Second, I'm not entirely sure how this build looks from a class level. It looks like you have 18 levels of druid on one side, and 22 levels of stuff, as well as a bunch of templates, on the other side.

Third, you should prolly have the supernatural abilities you're assuming be explicit, cause that feat's a big deal. And, finally, I'd probably switch out bestial charge for something that's not that, because it doesn't look like that feat actually does anything. You don't yet have any summoner feats, so greenbound (LEoF, 8) or rashemi elemental summoning (UE, 45) could be a good choice. It's worth note that it looks like druid and MoMF levels actually do stack for wild shape purposes, even though they happen at the same time, so you might be able to do some crazy things with that. I haven't looked into it yet, but you should be on the lookout for forms with HD that would normally be unreachable, and that are really cool.


Noted, I'll keep a look out. The reason I didn't specify on Supernataural was because it was up to suggestion; if I effectively have 38 druid levels for wild shape, perhaps I could go Great Wyrm Dragon? I believe that's allowed via MoMF?

[MadGreenSon]

Y'know. This thread reminds me that Beast Heart Adept from Dungeonscape has always appealed to me despite the fact it synergies with nothing and would basically go nowhere unless you had Epic progression for it.

All this talk of multiple animal companions has made me want to figure out the Pack of Chimeras build I used to dream of again...

[Nishant]

Do it! Lets create a build where dinosaurs and chimaera reign free, or as possible mounts! All hail the lazer-shooting, Mecha fire breathing T-rex! (Side note; someone, please make this happen)

[MadGreenSon]

Do it! Lets create a build where dinosaurs and chimaera reign free, or as possible mounts! All hail the lazer-shooting, Mecha fire breathing T-rex! (Side note; someone, please make this happen)

Ok. Here's what I've got off the top of my head. Need the Natural Bond, Beast Totem and Totem Companion Feats, then take Druid 10, Beast Heart Adept 10 (Doesn't have to be in that order, I guess) and you could have 4 Chimera animal companions, a good BaB, and some Druid stuff.

Kinda gishy, coordinating with the Chimeras will be the natural result of the class features, even to the point of benefiting your party. It might work, but it's not pretty.

If there were a way to get Huge Wild Shape in there you could get the Beast Shape feat to become a fully functional Chimera yourself to round out the pack, otherwise that has to wait 'til Epic.

Hmmm... There's gotta be a better way of doing this.

(of course in Gestalt, you take Druid on one side, Ranger 5/Beast Heart Adept 10/Whatever 5 on the other side, ditch Natural Bond take Beast Shape and you can become a fully functional Chimera along with your 4 buddies)