Wild Shape Suggestions

[SliceandDiceKid]

Hey I'm playing a lvl 3 gestalt character doing unarmed damage with a druid/monkesque theme. I'm looking for animals with TONS of Con. Preferably 10HD or more. I have my early lvl wild shapes picked out. I'm eager to hit really high con for bonuses to AC. Thanks for the help!

[eggynack]

Well, I'm apparently doing this exact search currently, so it might as well be in a thread devoted to this topic. The highest I've found thus far is the dire elephant, which requires access to 20 HD creatures and gargantuan forms (both doable by level 15 on a straight druid), and has 30 constitution. After that, the next thing to do is running down the major wild shape forms for high power, which happen to be dinosaurs, dire animals, and legendary animals.

Because I already have the MM II open, I'ma start with legendary animals, of whom the highest constitution is possessed by the legendary horse, with 27 constitution, and that one requires access to 17 HD forms. From the same book's dinosaur section, the best acquirable one is the ankylosaurus, with 26 constitution, with huge forms as the only requirement. Neither the MM I nor the MM III seem to have anything of interest on this front, and the dire tortoise only has 25 constitution, so that's probably out. So far, it looks like the aggressively difficult to access dire elephant is the front-runner, though more searching is in order.

Edit: Just checked the fiend folio, and the best animal form there is the dire rhinoceros with 29 constitution, though I've just remembered that I should also check plant forms. Also, I just found the terror bird, and oh god, why? It's just the best thing ever. I can't see anything about it that would make for a good wild shape form, but it just is, y'know?

[SliceandDiceKid]

Well, I'm apparently doing this exact search currently, so it might as well be in a thread devoted to this topic. The highest I've found thus far is the dire elephant, which requires access to 20 HD creatures and gargantuan forms (both doable by level 15 on a straight druid), and has 30 constitution. After that, the next thing to do is running down the major wild shape forms for high power, which happen to be dinosaurs, dire animals, and legendary animals.

Because I already have the MM II open, I'ma start with legendary animals, of whom the highest constitution is possessed by the legendary horse, with 27 constitution, and that one requires access to 17 HD forms. From the same book's dinosaur section, the best acquirable one is the ankylosaurus, with 26 constitution, with huge forms as the only requirement. Neither the MM I nor the MM III seem to have anything of interest on this front, and the dire tortoise only has 25 constitution, so that's probably out. So far, it looks like the aggressively difficult to access dire elephant is the front-runner, though more searching is in order.


I actually noticed your post in the other gestalt thread immediately after starting this thread. Also, I'm finding your handbook extremely useful so far. (Special shout out to the travel devotion) We played again last night and my changes were approved. The guy who usually DMs looked at the other two of us and said WOW... That's why people plan characters ahead of time. WOW.

I've been looking for high con as well as general combat usefulness. It's been a generally fruitless result, but I will incorporate exalted wild shape. Not sure how much that will help in the con search.

[eggynack]

I actually noticed your post in the other gestalt thread immediately after starting this thread. Also, I'm finding your handbook extremely useful so far. (Special shout out to the travel devotion) We played again last night and my changes were approved. The guy who usually DMs looked at the other two of us and said WOW... That's why people plan characters ahead of time. WOW.
Glad it's been working out. I like to think, despite the high druidic optimization floor, that there's a lot of ceiling to work with.


I've been looking for high con as well as general combat usefulness. It's been a generally fruitless result, but I will incorporate exalted wild shape. Not sure how much that will help in the con search.

Exalted wild shape doesn't do that much along those lines. It's mostly just blink dog, and celestial animals, with a tiny side order of unicorn. Those things are great, though they don't add much constitution if you don't have an animal form with it already. As for general combat usefulness, as I mentioned above, it's all about dinosaurs, dire animals, and legendary animals, with desmodu bats as the primary flight form. So, locked away in core you get stuff like deinoychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus) and dire bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm), while out of core it's all about fleshraker dinosaurs and dire tortoises. As for constitution specifically, the search is ongoing, unless dire elephant is actually the maximum. Seems plausible.

[Immabozo]

Personally, I went druid 5/Master of Many Forms 2/Nature's Warrior 5 (never got past there in play) and I got access to Trolls and THAT sound like what you are looking for. A cave troll is just stupid awesome damage, with pounce, high str, high con. natural armor, etc. War troll is also very good, however, that is not good unarmed. You want a sword weapon in war troll.

Now, since gestalt is awesome, you can do druid to advance HD for wildshaping forms (and spellcasting!). And then on the other other side, take War Shaper and get immunity to crits, +5ft reach, +4 str, +4 con, and some more goodies depending on how far you want to take it.

[VoxRationis]

I'm eager to hit really high con for bonuses to AC. Thanks for the help!

How are you getting Con bonuses to AC?
(I don't have a lot of the splatbooks, so I tend to not know a lot of these things.)

[eggynack]

Just solved it, and with the most classic method too. Shambling mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shamblingMound.htm) plus enhance wild shape plus repetitive electricity damage equals ridiculous constitution. I also found the night twist (MM III, 110) which has 29 constitution.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Personally, I went druid 5/Master of Many Forms 2/Nature's Warrior 5 (never got past there in play) and I got access to Trolls and THAT sound like what you are looking for. A cave troll is just stupid awesome damage, with pounce, high str, high con. natural armor, etc. War troll is also very good, however, that is not good unarmed. You want a sword weapon in war troll.

Now, since gestalt is awesome, you can do druid to advance HD for wildshaping forms (and spellcasting!). And then on the other other side, take War Shaper and get immunity to crits, +5ft reach, +4 str, +4 con, and some more goodies depending on how far you want to take it.

War shaper is something else, I'll give you that. The other side of the gestalt is maxing out unarmed damage.

The build isn't set in stone, but I've definitely got it planned to 19 and I'm far enough in that I can't really make a change at this point. Thanks though! Trolls would be pretty sweet. I'm thankful I went VoP at this point. Really excited about the ability bonuses.

[SliceandDiceKid]

How are you getting Con bonuses to AC?
(I don't have a lot of the splatbooks, so I tend to not know a lot of these things.)

Credit to egg,
FotF and deepwarden levels

[SliceandDiceKid]

Just solved it, and with the most classic method too. Shambling mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shamblingMound.htm) plus enhance wild shape plus repetitive electricity damage equals ridiculous constitution. I also found the night twist (MM III, 110) which has 29 constitution.

If I were to meet you, sir, I do believe I would buy you a beer.

[eggynack]

If I were to meet you, sir, I do believe I would buy you a beer.
Very nifty, though it's worth note that the shambling mound trick is a rather old one. This is just a cool application of it.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Any ideas on inflicting repeating electric damage to myself? Or just AOE electric damage? Lol

Also, I still have a level free in my build. What if I dipped a class with an electric SLA???? Could a warlock target himself with an eldritch blast?

[eggynack]

Any ideas on inflicting repeating electric damage to myself? Or just AOE electric damage?
Best way's probably thunderhead (SpC, 219). It's a first level spell that deals you one point of electricity damage every round for rounds/level. You can just use a bunch of those, or even extend or persist it (or extend and persist it) if you really want to push that aspect of things. Just casting the spell is probably enough though.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Best way's probably thunderhead (SpC, 219). It's a first level spell that deals you one point of electricity damage every round for rounds/level. You can just use a bunch of those, or even extend or persist it (or extend and persist it) if you really want to push that aspect of things. Just casting the spell is probably enough though.

I love it! Level 8 will be interesting.

Lol the last time I read thunderhead I scoffed. Not this time, though... Not this time.

[eggynack]

I love it! Level 8 will be interesting.
Probably 12, unless you're really pushing it and cast two instances of enhance wild shape, one for the plant form, and one for the Ex abilities. Actually, that sounds kinda awesome. Expensive, but awesome. I have no idea whether those extra points of constitution impact HP at all. I'd figure that they would, especially if con damage causes loss of HP.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I think I wouldn't use it persisted unless I was in a dire situation. Lol

[SliceandDiceKid]

Yeah we house ruled that con exchange of any sort directly affects HP. Even if wild shape was changed so it wouldn't do that. It's rather inconsistent. Even if it is overpowered. Stupid wotc

[eggynack]

Yeah we house ruled that con exchange of any sort directly affects HP. Even if wild shape was changed so it wouldn't do that. It's rather inconsistent. Even if it is overpowered. Stupid wotc
Do you mean that even standard wild shape alters HP in and of itself, or that everything apart from wild shape alters HP? Really, the big issue is with the interaction between ability damage and wild shape, which to my knowledge has no known RAW solution.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Do you mean that even standard wild shape alters HP in and of itself, or that everything apart from wild shape alters HP? Really, the big issue is with the interaction between ability damage and wild shape, which to my knowledge has no known RAW solution.

Changes to con are supposed to increase and decrease your HP, but to my knowledge, the rules for 3.5 were altered so your con alterations for taking on the animals form does not affect your total HP. You keep your previous total.

This makes very little sense if you are REPLACING your physical stats. So we have ruled that you maintain your previous HD, but your new CON determines the rest of your HP.

[eggynack]

Changes to con are supposed to increase and decrease your HP, but to my knowledge, the rules for 3.5 were altered so your con alterations for taking on the animals form does not affect your total HP. You keep your previous total.

This makes very little sense if you are REPLACING your physical stats. So we have ruled that you maintain your previous HD, but your new CON determines the rest of your HP.
Ah. That's a pretty odd thing, especially because it makes druidic SADness hit ridiculous levels, but also because it seems like a bit of a bookkeeping hassle.

[Immabozo]

War shaper is something else, I'll give you that. The other side of the gestalt is maxing out unarmed damage.

The build isn't set in stone, but I've definitely got it planned to 19 and I'm far enough in that I can't really make a change at this point. Thanks though! Trolls would be pretty sweet. I'm thankful I went VoP at this point. Really excited about the ability bonuses.

VoP bonus stats, for the record, are sub-optimal compared to magical items. But that doesn't mean it's a bad choice. I've considered using it myself.

But thank you for the kind words. If you aren't worried about increasing wildshaping past cave troll, Druid 4/MMoF 2 and a wildshaping necklace (+4 effective HD for determining wildshaping forms, MIC?) will get you the cave troll, then I do believe you qualify for War Shaper after that.


Changes to con are supposed to increase and decrease your HP, but to my knowledge, the rules for 3.5 were altered so your con alterations for taking on the animals form does not affect your total HP. You keep your previous total.

This makes very little sense if you are REPLACING your physical stats. So we have ruled that you maintain your previous HD, but your new CON determines the rest of your HP.

This ruling was due to wizards abusing shapechange. Wildshape is just an unfortunate victim. There is no problem with house ruling it away, but I thought you should know the reason for the rule

[SliceandDiceKid]

Ah. That's a pretty odd thing, especially because it makes druidic SADness hit ridiculous levels, but also because it seems like a bit of a bookkeeping hassle.

Meh. WILDSHAPE notecards. Each has a shape I want to use and my HP if I take that form this level. Obviously there would be other increases and decreases, but preparation would greatly expedite the process.

[eggynack]

Meh. WILDSHAPE notecards. Each has a shape I want to use and my HP if I take that form this level. Obviously there would be other increases and decreases, but preparation would greatly expedite the process.
That's fair, I suppose, though it's notable that changes in HD would mean that you're changing all of those notecards every time you level, because all of those forms are getting an HP boost equal to their con mod.

[SliceandDiceKid]

VoP bonus stats, for the record, are sub-optimal compared to magical items. But that doesn't mean it's a bad choice. I've considered using it myself.

But thank you for the kind words. If you aren't worried about increasing wildshaping past cave troll, Druid 4/MMoF 2 and a wildshaping necklace (+4 effective HD for determining wildshaping forms, MIC?) will get you the cave troll, then I do believe you qualify for War Shaper after that.



This ruling was due to wizards abusing shapechange. Wildshape is just an unfortunate victim. There is no problem with house ruling it away, but I thought you should know the reason for the rule

Thanks for the history on it! We've been playing just over a year and until a few months ago had stuck pretty close to core, with very little research or online reference aside from the srd. Dnd tools has made a huge impact. Lol

For the record, VoP is for RP in the campaign. We've pretty seriously altered it for our benefit (no sacred vow prerequisite, 1/2 feat progression for normal feats instead of exalted, and a determination effect rather than alignment based/restricted).

My build is druid one side, and on the other:
1monk
1C Cleric
2 rogue
2 stoneblessed
3 FotF
1 Stoneblessed
2 deepwarden
2 fighter
1 ?
5 shou disciple

Feel free to take a stab at what I should dip for that level. Haha
But I've already fully invested into feats and skills for the build.

[SliceandDiceKid]

That's fair, I suppose, though it's notable that changes in HD would mean that you're changing all of those notecards every time you level, because all of those forms are getting an HP boost equal to their con mod.

Yes. Sorry I forgot to address that. I meant it to be like part of my character sheet. When I level, I alter all the notecards. :)

At least I'm not doing two spell casting classes. Slots are daunting enough to pick lol

[SliceandDiceKid]

Also, off topic, but build related, should I use wisdom or con as my main VoP ability? Con is double ac, but wisdom is saves, ac, and extra spells.

[eggynack]

Also, off topic, but build related, should I use wisdom or con as my main VoP ability? Con is double ac, but wisdom is saves, ac, and extra spells.
I'd probably go with wisdom, especially because constitution isn't impacting HP. Magic is all of the things.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Wouldn't the ability bonuses from VoP affect you while in wild shape?

[eggynack]

Wouldn't the ability bonuses from VoP affect you while in wild shape?
I suppose it would, come to think of it. Still, magic is usually going to be more important, I think. You're just generally going to have some ridiculously high defenses of a number of kinds, with or without +2 AC.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I suppose it would, come to think of it. Still, magic is usually going to be more important, I think. You're just generally going to have some ridiculously high defenses of a number of kinds, with or without +2 AC.

Cool. I'll trust your *takes off sunglasses to reveal awkward squinty eyes* ...wisdom


YYYEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[Immabozo]

Thanks for the history on it! We've been playing just over a year and until a few months ago had stuck pretty close to core, with very little research or online reference aside from the srd. Dnd tools has made a huge impact. Lol

For the record, VoP is for RP in the campaign. We've pretty seriously altered it for our benefit (no sacred vow prerequisite, 1/2 feat progression for normal feats instead of exalted, and a determination effect rather than alignment based/restricted).

My build is druid one side, and on the other:
1monk
1C Cleric
2 rogue
2 stoneblessed
3 FotF
1 Stoneblessed
2 deepwarden
2 fighter
1 ?
5 shou disciple

Feel free to take a stab at what I should dip for that level. Haha
But I've already fully invested into feats and skills for the build.

Of course, glad to help.

Your houserule changes to VOP definitely make it MUCH better. The prereq sucks and exalted feats stink, but its still not fantastic, but
much better.

a 1 level dip into War shaper, master of many forms or nature's warrior are decent dips. But MMoF is really a 2 level dip if you can swing it, I recommend it. Do one one the druid side during your fighter, rogue, cleric or monk levels.


Wouldn't the ability bonuses from VoP affect you while in wild shape?

not con. Your house rule gives you new con appropriate to the form, even if it's lower, unless you house rule otherwise. But the rules state that your new con does not dictate HP, and under those rules, yes, your modified con would give you more hp in wildshape.

Now, assuming the bonuses work, you should ask yourself, do you feel lucky?

No, seriously, what role are you taking? Are you more fighter based? Con. If you are more a caster? Wis for more bonus spells, higher DCs and the will saves doesn't hurt.

Although, especially for a wildshaping druid, especially with such a focus on con, I suggest getting Steadfast Determination, lets you use con, instead of wis on will saves, AND you dont auto-fail fort saves on a 1.

I once had that and a fort save of +31 and always laughed when my DM told me to make a fort save.

That's one more thing you get from high con

[Immabozo]

If you can get war troll (via MMoF 2) you get some amazing abilities, and a 31 con, with War shaper, you can get a 35 con, if you houserule that VOP stacks with wildshape, you can get up to 43 con. A simple item of +3 con, you're up to 46 con! Thats a +18 modifier! With con to will and con to AC, twice, you will be in really good shape.

And then going barbarian dip, then bear warrior dip, you can easily get up to a 52 or so con. Life will be good.