Why does everyone love Planar Binding?

[VoxRationis]

The planar binding line of arcane spells seems to get a great deal of love on these forums, and though I see the advantage of having a powerful outsider serving you for more than the few rounds summon monster does, I'm wondering why everyone loves it so unconditionally. After all, the spell:
-Takes a while to cast, in addition to the negotiation time (not a big deal, but still worth considering, since it does somewhat reduce dungeon utility);
-Requires lots of negotiation with a powerful (and likely angry) outsider;
-Allows a Will save, against creatures which largely have good Will saves;
-Allows spell resistance, against creatures that more often than not have spell resistance (this can be omitted with the special casting of magic circle, but that takes even more time);
-Requires the casting of another spell, dimensional anchor, in order to prevent your summoned creature from simply teleporting outside and attacking you;
-Only can summon creatures with HD comparable to or less than yours, which eliminates a lot of outsiders with CR comparable to yours;
-Requires hefty bribes to succeed, all to gain a single minion for a few days;
-And requires you to cast at least one alignment-targeting spell, which intersects weirdly with the alignment of the spell itself (if you want to summon a good creature, you have to cast an evil spell, but the planar binding itself is good, and vice versa).

A lot of DMs would make the roleplaying of negotiations with the called outsider really difficult to boot, which makes a degree of sense, considering that celestials probably aren't going to be too happy about being called to do some random mage's dirty work, and fiends are notorious for being diabolical (pun intended) in their deals. Plus the outsider will probably try to find a way to pervert your instructions somehow.

Now, don't get me wrong; I like the feel of the spell, as it has a lot of basis in myth and literature, and I can think of scenarios in which one might like having a capable outsider performing tasks besides fighting for a few rounds, so I could see a wizard character of mine using it. But I don't understand why everyone just says "planar binding" as an answer to things (or why they tend to similarly gloss over difficulties in a number of things, like magic item forging).

[eggynack]

Leaving aside the fact that many of your listed issues aren't that problematic, the reason why planar binding is so widely loved is because it's crazy powerful. You get a creature for days, and unlike the summon monster line, which needs every creature to be explicitly added to the list, planar binding is given free reign over everything in its path. So, you could go really cheesy and get an efreeti for a free wish, or you could just pick up a creature with a number of highly useful abilities, like the succubus. This is a spell that isn't really hurt much by how long it takes, because you shouldn't cast it in the middle of a dungeon anyway. You cast it before an adventure, taking your time and incurring just about no cost, and then you get a free magic creature for days. That's awesome.

[Psyren]

It's given love primarily in theoretical optimization threads, which assume a RAW-permissive DM. In other words, if the text of the spell lets you do X, you're probably going to get away with X, even if an actual DM in real life would attach various stipulations or read ambiguous/hazardous clauses more unfavorably for the player. It also does not assume hazards such as the outsider's allies or kin seeking revenge, which might also be centerpiece hooks in a campaign.

[Rubik]

You might want to consider the spell list of the class using this spell. I mean, wizards have a huge number of buffs (for themselves), debuffs (for their enemies), and mind control spells (for fun and profit).

Hit it with Bestow Curses (to lower saves and ability scores and to apply other penalties to skills and such), fear effects (penalties to saves and ability checks), all the right Power Word spells (for more penalties), and so on. Then buff yourself to heights which rival the called creature's depths, and suddenly IT needs to roll a nat 20 and YOU need to roll a nat 1 for it to succeed, even on a ludicrous agreement. (ie, "You're my slave for eternity, no questions asked." "Okay.")

Or you could just Diplomancy, Charm, or Dominate the bastard, or raise it as an undead with one of the spells that lets it keep all of its abilities. One save, one fail (or one death), and you can convince it to give you whatever you want. And you can even bypass the agreement completely if you Dominate it hard enough. After all, it's there in the flesh, and you command it now.

Keep in mind that you have the entire duration of Planar Binding to wrangle an agreement out of it, which means you have all that time to buff/debuff/Charm/Dominate/Undeadify to the Hells and back before your time expires.

[VoxRationis]

I mostly play with core rules, and am not familiar with a lot of extra-PHB spells, so could you please elaborate? I don't know of any spells that increase Diplomacy to that extent, nor any Power Word spells that would affect negotiations (besides the obvious "If you don't work for me, I'll hit you with a Power Word spell" threat).
And slapping a ton of spells on it means that you have to be spending a full day on the matter, assured that you won't be bothered by anything else (which makes it, incidentally, a great tool for NPCs).
Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that the spell is useless, just that I think it's much less applicable to all situations than the forum seems to think.

Also, and this doesn't really lower its utility, but I have to point this out: Does it bother no one else that you have to cast an Evil spell and a Good spell to use planar binding, unless you only use Lawful/Chaotic creatures?

[Vrock_Summoner]

I mostly play with core rules, and am not familiar with a lot of extra-PHB spells, so could you please elaborate? I don't know of any spells that increase Diplomacy to that extent, nor any Power Word spells that would affect negotiations (besides the obvious "If you don't work for me, I'll hit you with a Power Word spell" threat).
And slapping a ton of spells on it means that you have to be spending a full day on the matter, assured that you won't be bothered by anything else (which makes it, incidentally, a great tool for NPCs).
Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that the spell is useless, just that I think it's much less applicable to all situations than the forum seems to think.

Also, and this doesn't really lower its utility, but I have to point this out: Does it bother no one else that you have to cast an Evil spell and a Good spell to use planar binding, unless you only use Lawful/Chaotic creatures?

I'm pretty sure Planar Binding almost always equals out to Neutral, assuming you place the moral weight of each spell at equal value. Of course, the entire idea that trapping and forcing services from Good creatures is Good somewhat bothers me, so I'm not going to say that I feel the spell is perfect in that regard.

To respond to the original question... As Rubik pointed out, getting an obscene advantage in these negotiations is pretty time consuming, but very easy, and Planar Binding gives you quite a bit of time. I personally love the non-Lesser version of it immensely as it allows me to utilize a small army of Vrocks (you have no idea how many problems a force like that can solve), but even when I'm playing Good characters who wouldn't do that the spell is fantastic for things like gathering information. Or better yet, arranging fights on your own terms against named extraplanars.

It's not for everyone, of course, but I use it pretty often.

[Telok]

Let's start with the Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm).

It has two 9th level spells as at-will SLAs. So for the cost of Magic Circle vs. Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Lesser Planar Binding you call a Nightmare. It needs to fail a Will save (it has a +6) and then a Charisma check with a DC set by your Charisma check +5 (see Magic Circle for details). If you like you can zap it with Maximized Enervation to make it less able to resist you.

Now you get to play with Astral Projection. Notably the clause about being able to form a copy of your body and equipment on any plane (including the prime material) and then going adventuring with this virtual self at no risk to your real body. You can even do this a day ahead of time and rest to restore your spells before adventuring.

Efreet require Planar Binding but you can force or bargain Wishes out of them if you're smart about it. Retrievers also needs Planar Binding but have non-Int and 1 Charisma so you can smack them around easily and they're too dumb to take revenge. The demon Glabrezu can grant wishes for you too, but you're better off getting two Wishes out of an Efreet and then killing it with Cone of Cold. Invisible Stalkers are intelligent invisible air elementals with a summoning service clause in the monster description, no bargaining needed. Couatl cast as 9th level sorcerers from both the sorcerer and cleric lists, plus they advance in HD and you can call more powerful ones. If you're into summoning angels the Trumpet Archon is a decent 12 HD warrior with 14th level cleric casting or you can use Greater Planar Binding and nab the 14 HD Planetar who casts as a 17th level cleric. You'll want to pimp out your caster level and Charisma checks for those last two, they aren't wimps.

If you start adding more monster manuals then your Planar Binding power grows. Look up things like Mirror Mephits and Weirds, or just outsiders with unique powers and abilities.

[Coidzor]

It's given love primarily in theoretical optimization threads, which assume a RAW-permissive DM. In other words, if the text of the spell lets you do X, you're probably going to get away with X, even if an actual DM in real life would attach various stipulations or read ambiguous/hazardous clauses more unfavorably for the player. It also does not assume hazards such as the outsider's allies or kin seeking revenge, which might also be centerpiece hooks in a campaign.

You mean changing the entire trajectory of the campaign in response to one line of spells? :smallamused:

[icefractal]

I'd say the main non-obvious things are:
1) You don't bind stuff stronger than you, that's just asking for trouble. You bind stuff that's weaker but has SLAs way above its weight class, like a Nightmare or Efreet.
2) You don't use this for general-purpose fighting minions, you use it for the access to a huge number of situational abilities.

#1 is key here. I've seen a lot of stuff about "oh, if you try to get stuff from outsiders they'll demand a terrible price, etc". But if you mind control them, or just make a Simulacrum and kill the original, none of that is an issue. And even the ability to do that is going to be a significant edge in any negotiations.

Although that said, Planar Binding for Efreet is a rather significant hole in the game that leads to easy unlimited power loops, and should be house-ruled out one way or another.

[avr]

Even without breaking it Planar Binding turns your spell slots on a day you're not going adventuring into a resource you can use on a day that you are going adventuring. There's other ways of doing the same thing - magic item creation, pages of explosive runes, selling services as a spellcaster for cash - but binding has a solid return on investment without requiring feats.

Also it's pretty cool.

[TypoNinja]

Trumpet Archon is a decent 12 HD warrior with 14th level cleric casting or you can use Greater Planar Binding and nab the 14 HD Planetar who casts as a 17th level cleric

This is why I love it. Outsiders with more caster levels than hitdie. Easy way to cheat access to higher level spells. Planetars even get domains access!

Bonus points, if you are good, and are summoning something good, and you want them to help you vanquish Evil, you don't really have to do all that much convincing.

[ahenobarbi]

Getting Lantern Archon isn't hard (no SR, 1 HD, 10 Cha). You can treat it fair and you're not likely to make anyone angry (pay etc.). In return you get:
* At-will continual flame (makes you 50gp a round) (EDIT: at CL 9 it would make 6 480 000 gp worth of shiny stones (129 600 of them, enough to iluminate 162 777 600 square ft (>15 sqare km)) for a fair payment of 1000gp).
* at-will greater teleport (self and 50lb of equipment only). Just get into a bag of holding and get transported around. Or make tons of cash transporting valuable stuff. Or put nasty traps in BBEG's bedroom.
* Non-stop circle of protection vs evil. Keep it near you and get bonuses and protection from domination and the likes (plus it's non dispellable).


Bonus points, if you are good, and are summoning something good, and you want them to help you vanquish Evil, you don't really have to do all that much convincing.

Actually I was about to open a thread about that exact situation. Could you recommend any non-evil creatures to Planar Bind (lesser)?

[Psyren]

If you're going for good-aligned creatures you may be better off with Planar Ally just to avoid any ethical issues. Or if you must use PB, don't trap the creature with MCAG.


You mean changing the entire trajectory of the campaign in response to one line of spells? :smallamused:

I think that if you have (for example) efreeti in your campaign world at all, and they are legal targets for binding, that you as the DM need to be ready to deal with the consequences of that. From an in-universe standpoint, the efreeti themselves would absolutely be aware of their vulnerability and be prepared for it, because to do otherwise would be pretty idiotic on their part. And from a metagame standpoint, binding itself can "change the entire trajectory of the campaign" if left unchecked, quite easily.

But as far as one line of spells being able to change the campaign - well, yes, that happens pretty frequently actually. Once your players get the ability to teleport long distances or scry, your BBEG needs to take those capabilities into account, and this situation is no different. But a skillful DM, rather than banning everything, can make sure that everything is a vector for plothooks.

[Segev]

I know I'm late to the party on this one, but it just occurred to me that Planar Binding is Conjuration, and thus a valid target for Shadow Conjuration. I'm sure there is some amount of silliness to which one could get involving this realization.

[Psyren]

I know I'm late to the party on this one, but it just occurred to me that Planar Binding is Conjuration, and thus a valid target for Shadow Conjuration. I'm sure there is some amount of silliness to which one could get involving this realization.

Actually it's not - SC can only mimic (summoning) or (creation) effects, whereas Planar Binding is (calling.)

[Segev]

Actually it's not - SC can only mimic (summoning) or (creation) effects, whereas Planar Binding is (calling.)

...you're quite right. I was thinking it could mimic (Calling) for some reason. My mistake.

[Gavinfoxx]

You want the associated spells to make it sooo easy and remove all of the difficulties.

Magic Circle Against Law (for the Formians and such)
Magic Circle Against Evil (for most of the evil things)
Enervation
Bestow Curse
Dimensional Anchor
Spectral Hand
Lesser Geas

and things like that.

[Segev]

Spectral Hand


Okay, I can see at least partial uses for the others. How does this one help?

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, I can see at least partial uses for the others. How does this one help?

Deliver touch attacks across the circle.

[Arbane]

I've been wondering for a while - what exactly stops the summoned creature from breaking their half of the deal? (That the summoner gets to break their half if they want to seems to go without saying. )

[Psyren]

I've been wondering for a while - what exactly stops the summoned creature from breaking their half of the deal? (That the summoner gets to break their half if they want to seems to go without saying. )

It can't outright disobey anything it agrees to, however "a clever recipient can subvert some instructions." (And by that, they mean "a clever DM.")

[ace rooster]

People like it because it is a gateway to unlimited power, if you can handle it :smallamused:. Power gamers like the power, and RP players like the opportunities it offers. Some people just assume that because there are no explicit down sides, there are no down sides full stop. With a bad DM, this may be the case, but it shouldn't be.


Getting Lantern Archon isn't hard (no SR, 1 HD, 10 Cha). You can treat it fair and you're not likely to make anyone angry (pay etc.). In return you get:
* At-will continual flame (makes you 50gp a round) (EDIT: at CL 9 it would make 6 480 000 gp worth of shiny stones (129 600 of them, enough to iluminate 162 777 600 square ft (>15 sqare km)) for a fair payment of 1000gp).
* at-will greater teleport (self and 50lb of equipment only). Just get into a bag of holding and get transported around. Or make tons of cash transporting valuable stuff. Or put nasty traps in BBEG's bedroom.
* Non-stop circle of protection vs evil. Keep it near you and get bonuses and protection from domination and the likes (plus it's non dispellable).



Actually I was about to open a thread about that exact situation. Could you recommend any non-evil creatures to Planar Bind (lesser)?

If cancer research kidnapped me, or an employee of mine (if I had any) and had me working in a sweatshop making shiny stones for a "fair" payment, I would not be happy, despite agreeing with their aims. Lawful good does not mean pacifist, and removing an outsider from it's normal role will generally piss someone off if you do not have a very good reason. Profit is not a good reason. The other uses you would probably get away with, if you are Ok with the other risks associated with bag travel, and you had no other good way of achieving something in the outsider's interests.

[LordBlades]

It can't outright disobey anything it agrees to, however "a clever recipient can subvert some instructions." (And by that, they mean "a clever DM.")

Getting into a contest of out of character wits with your players seldom works. A DM is one, the players are many and unless the DM is significantly smarter than any of his players odds are he'll get outwitted far more than the reverse (After all, in most games PCs do get offered deals they can twist too).

Also, from an IC stand point it would be folly for a wizard not to invest a few spell slots into boosting profession (lawyer) to make sure the deal offered is really unlikely to be twisted or gotten out of.

[prufock]

I'm actually going to be playing a PF summoner in an upcoming game, and I've been searching for a guide to the best planar bindings by HD, but coming up short. The closest I came was 3.5 and focused on demons/devils. Anyone have a handy link to help out?

[Psyren]

Getting into a contest of out of character wits with your players seldom works. A DM is one, the players are many and unless the DM is significantly smarter than any of his players odds are he'll get outwitted far more than the reverse (After all, in most games PCs do get offered deals they can twist too).

True, but the DM also has the advantage of knowing information that the players do not. Knowing that this particular efreet is being monitored by the sultan of the City of Brass, or was bound by the BBEG last week and already has a standing agreement with him, or has a contingency plan set up with an allied Shaitan Pasha so that the two can look out for each other if they happen to be bound by uppity mortals etc. - those are all things that most players are unlikely to prepare for, outnumbering the DM or not.



Also, from an IC stand point it would be folly for a wizard not to invest a few spell slots into boosting profession (lawyer) to make sure the deal offered is really unlikely to be twisted or gotten out of.

"I roll profession (lawyer) to make an ironclad agreement" is a silly strategy since the DM would get to set the DC for such a thing. Moreover, the spell itself actually requires you to describe the service required.

[LordBlades]

True, but the DM also has the advantage of knowing information that the players do not. Knowing that this particular efreet is being monitored by the sultan of the City of Brass, or was bound by the BBEG last week and already has a standing agreement with him, or has a contingency plan set up with an allied Shaitan Pasha so that the two can look out for each other if they happen to be bound by uppity mortals etc. - those are all things that most players are unlikely to prepare for, outnumbering the DM or not.


The point I was trying to make is that if the DM does something that the players perceive as 'screwing them over' one of the possible responses is them banding together to screw the DM over too. Every group should have a pretty good idea about what's acceptable as part of the game and what's not. And I was aiming more at subverting the actual instructions (like 'hey you, bound devil kill that other devil guy' 'sure I will....in about a million years from now since we're both immortal and you're not and you didn't say when NYEAH!') rather than having more or less reasonable contingencies in place.


"I roll profession (lawyer) to make an ironclad agreement" is a silly strategy since the DM would get to set the DC for such a thing. Moreover, the spell itself actually requires you to describe the service required.

The way I see it 'my 40+ Int wizard who as of now has a +85 in profession (lawyer) should be able to phrase <insert idea of a deal coming from player> in a way that makes sure the instructions can't be twisted and I'm as safe as possible from future retribution' is a reasonable use of game mechanics.

[VoxRationis]

Okay, I see the utility of it. I do have to agree with the person who posted above that said Efreet probably have some means of screwing over people who summon them for free wishes, though. I mean, if nothing else, they could just use the wish earlier in the day for some frivolous task so they can honestly tell the caster they can't cast it if they're summoned.

Interesting note: In the past, I've used it to summon Formian Taskmasters, since by RAW, they come with a dominated creature (a 2-for-1 deal). That said, I think my DM was being generous, because not only did he skip negotiations, but he didn't have me kidnapping a creature that's part of a hive mind headed by a 17th-level caster come back to haunt me.

It is unfortunate that you have to trick archons/guardinals/eladrin into falling into a magic trap in order to recruit their aid, and I do think that a lantern archon would not be happy about being made into a factory worker, but if you're summoning the creature for a legitimately Good purpose (and explain so immediately), I think they'd get over it pretty quickly.

[Segev]

Technically, I think without the Magic Circle, a Planar Binding isn't much of a trap. The critter appears, is not bound in any way, and you have however long you have to speak to it before it decides to act to convince it to listen to your proposal.

[VoxRationis]

And I was aiming more at subverting the actual instructions (like 'hey you, bound devil kill that other devil guy' 'sure I will....in about a million years from now since we're both immortal and you're not and you didn't say when NYEAH!') rather than having more or less reasonable contingencies in place.





Actually, since the bound creature doesn't get to leave until it finishes its task, it's not in its best interest to procrastinate on the matter. Although I'm not sure what happens if you die due to its non-intervention... Does it still have to perform the task? What if you die and then get resurrected?

[LordBlades]

Actually, since the bound creature doesn't get to leave until it finishes its task, it's not in its best interest to procrastinate on the matter. Although I'm not sure what happens if you die due to its non-intervention... Does it still have to perform the task? What if you die and then get resurrected?

Actually the creature is prevented from leaving until it agrees with what you proposed, or breaks free. If Planar Binding meant the creature couldn't leave the circle until it completed the task (and as such could only complete tasks within the circle) it wouldn't be such a great spell...scratch that actually, it would still be strong as hell :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The point I was trying to make is that if the DM does something that the players perceive as 'screwing them over' one of the possible responses is them banding together to screw the DM over too. Every group should have a pretty good idea about what's acceptable as part of the game and what's not. And I was aiming more at subverting the actual instructions (like 'hey you, bound devil kill that other devil guy' 'sure I will....in about a million years from now since we're both immortal and you're not and you didn't say when NYEAH!') rather than having more or less reasonable contingencies in place.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for Efreet, who are described in the MM as "infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead" to plan against being bound by even the most savvy wizards out there.

Now I'm not saying it should be impossible to seek out or compel their aid, just that it should be impossible to do so scot-free. I'm not out to screw over players entirely, but neither would I want them to think binding an efreet is as easy as checking out a library book. Furthermore, no matter how good your check is, "unreasonable commands are never agreed to." Nothing you do can truly get something for nothing regardless of how high you pump the numbers.



The way I see it 'my 40+ Int wizard who as of now has a +85 in profession (lawyer) should be able to phrase <insert idea of a deal coming from player> in a way that makes sure the instructions can't be twisted and I'm as safe as possible from future retribution' is a reasonable use of game mechanics.

It might be reasonable to you but it's certainly not RAW, so it's up to the DM how that would work. The spell (a) specifically requires you to describe the deal and (b) says nothing about profession checks, so you're in houserule territory there - again, letting the DM set the DC.

[VoxRationis]

Technically, I think without the Magic Circle, a Planar Binding isn't much of a trap. The critter appears, is not bound in any way, and you have however long you have to speak to it before it decides to act to convince it to listen to your proposal.

The SRD says you "must use a magic circle spell, focused inward," which it earlier refers to as a trap you lure the target creature into. So I think it's a trap either way, just one which you could easily convince a celestial not to escape, under the right circumstances.

"I apologize profusely for the method of my contacting you, O Great Sentinel of the Upper Planes, but you are free to leave at any time; I just want to make known to you an opportunity for us to ally against Evil..."

[Psyren]

Actually, nothing requires you to use MCAG to call a good creature. You can still use a Magic Circle against Evil, and thus call one without doing any evil acts. Sure it can leave right away, but if you are good and the circle is good and your need is truly dire, it should at least hear you out.

[Segev]

The SRD says you "must use a magic circle spell, focused inward," which it earlier refers to as a trap you lure the target creature into. So I think it's a trap either way, just one which you could easily convince a celestial not to escape, under the right circumstances.

"I apologize profusely for the method of my contacting you, O Great Sentinel of the Upper Planes, but you are free to leave at any time; I just want to make known to you an opportunity for us to ally against Evil..."

Yes, but it also doesn't say that the spell fails to call the creature if you don't cast the magic circle, first.

[LordBlades]

It might be reasonable to you but it's certainly not RAW, so it's up to the DM how that would work. The spell (a) specifically requires you to describe the deal and (b) says nothing about profession checks, so you're in houserule territory there - again, letting the DM set the DC.

It says 'describe the deal' (which I understand as describing it from a narrative point of view) not 'say word for word what you're saying to the efreet'. If a player wants to have his character good at making deals by investing character resources into it (such as the needed resources to pump profession (lawyer), why wouldn't that be applicable to a situation where the character needs to make a deal?

I do agree it's not 100% RAW (but then, until rules compendium, not being allowed to act normally while dead wasn't either). The alternative however is relying purely on player's out of character skill at making deals, which might in an extreme case degenerate into 4 to 6 dudes (all players) scouring legal advice forums and portals for a week, drafting a 10 page document based on RL service contracts and handing it over to the DM next week after saying' I Bind an efreet and this is the deal I'm offering'.


Furthermore, no matter how good your check is, "unreasonable commands are never agreed to." Nothing you do can truly get something for nothing regardless of how high you pump the numbers.
.

Adding 'and I will kill you if you flat out refuse' firmly takes it out of 'something for nothing' territory. One big plus the creature gets out of the deal is that it gets to live.

[mangosta71]

The way I see it 'my 40+ Int wizard who as of now has a +85 in profession (lawyer) should be able to phrase <insert idea of a deal coming from player> in a way that makes sure the instructions can't be twisted and I'm as safe as possible from future retribution' is a reasonable use of game mechanics.
And while you're negotiating, the guy you summoned contacts his boss, who appears outside the circle to demand an explanation as to why you're tying up his valuable employee and why he shouldn't just try to divine your response to his question from your entrails. If the thing you bind can cast Gate, it can cast it before making an agreement.

If you try to abuse Planar Binding in a game I'm running because "it's RAW" I'll find a RAW reason to make you regret it.

[Psyren]

It says 'describe the deal' (which I understand as describing it from a narrative point of view) not 'say word for word what you're saying to the efreet'. If a player wants to have his character good at making deals by investing character resources into it (such as the needed resources to pump profession (lawyer), why wouldn't that be applicable to a situation where the character needs to make a deal?

I do agree it's not 100% RAW (but then, until rules compendium, not being allowed to act normally while dead wasn't either). The alternative however is relying purely on player's out of character skill at making deals, which might in an extreme case degenerate into 4 to 6 dudes (all players) scouring legal advice forums and portals for a week, drafting a 10 page document based on RL service contracts and handing it over to the DM next week after saying' I Bind an efreet and this is the deal I'm offering'.

Which the DM can then throw out using the unreasonable clause.

Basically what I'm saying is that, rather than try to make every deal airtight, the player should just accept that binding nasty things like efreet could have some unintended consequences, and trust that the DM isn't out to cause a TPK. If that forces the player to avoid binding things except as a last resort - well, that's kind of the point, this is not the sort of spell you use lightly. The very first sentence tells you it's dangerous after all.



Adding 'and I will kill you if you flat out refuse' firmly takes it out of 'something for nothing' territory. One big plus the creature gets out of the deal is that it gets to live.

Contracts under duress are always unreasonable, so no this won't work at all. Even the Pact Primeval includes a duress clause.

[Segev]

And while you're negotiating, the guy you summoned contacts his boss, who appears outside the circle to demand an explanation as to why you're tying up his valuable employee and why he shouldn't just try to divine your response to his question from your entrails. If the thing you bind can cast Gate, it can cast it before making an agreement.

If you try to abuse Planar Binding in a game I'm running because "it's RAW" I'll find a RAW reason to make you regret it.

That's why you cast it in a dimension locked room with the only un-locked space within another magic circle. "Ah, thank you for showing up. I'll let you out after I'm done explaining to your employee why he shouldn't be wasting your valuable time...and demonstrating to you why you shouldn't waste mine." Then proceed to demonstrate why Wizards are Tier 1 to them both.

[LordBlades]

If you try to abuse Planar Binding in a game I'm running because "it's RAW" I'll find a RAW reason to make you regret it.

I'm not trying to abuse anything. Hell, I barely use Planar Binding in my games (generally I refrain from creatures that grant loop-able or level-inappropriate abilities unless I cleared stuff with my DM beforehand). I jsut dislike nitpicking over petty legal-ish stuff. And if you (as the DM) punish me for not nitpicking over petty legal-ish stuff, I WILL make you suffer for it :smalltongue:

[LordBlades]

Which the DM can then throw out using the unreasonable clause.



What if it is a perfectly reasonable contract which simply is beyond the DMs skill to find loopholes?

Personally, I find time is better spent gaming and having fun rather than trying to one-up each other. A honest statement of 'in this game no matter what you do, Planar Binding will have consequences' is much better than the endless, player does this, the DM counters with that, players does the other thing, DM counters etc cat&mouse game.

[Psyren]

What if it is a perfectly reasonable contract which simply is beyond the DMs skill to find loopholes?

For it to be "perfectly reasonable" you would have to give the efreet something it wants as well. Anything else, including "in exchange I'll let you live and you get nothing else," is unreasonable.



Personally, I find time is better spent gaming and having fun rather than trying to one-up each other. A honest statement of 'in this game no matter what you do, Planar Binding will have consequences' is much better than the endless, player does this, the DM counters with that, players does the other thing, DM counters etc cat&mouse game.

That's exactly what I said above, so it sounds like we are in agreement?

[LordBlades]

For it to be "perfectly reasonable" you would have to give the efreet something it wants as well. Anything else, including "in exchange I'll let you live and you get nothing else," is unreasonable.

So you're implying his own life isn't something an efreeti wants? In the medieval-ish setting D&D seems to aim at, trapping somebody in a situation where you could easily kill him and offering him a chance to save himself in exchange for a simple task (granting you a Wish) doesn't seem really that unreasonable. Doubly so when you're known to make good on your threats.




That's exactly what I said above, so it sounds like we are in agreement?

Pretty much, except I'd rather have a DM flat out state that he'd like something to happen a certain way rather than try to 'coerce'it in game. For 2 reasons mainly:

-most pepole aren't nearly as good at making sense in 5he context of a fantasy world as they think they are. One man"s 'logical consequences' are easily another's "blatant railroading'.
- I've known too many competitive peple that read'I'm making it hard for you to do X because I don't want you to do X much' as 'I dare you to find new&vreative ways to do X as much and as often as possible'.

[ahenobarbi]

If cancer research kidnapped me, or an employee of mine (if I had any) and had me working in a sweatshop making shiny stones for a "fair" payment, I would not be happy, despite agreeing with their aims. Lawful good does not mean pacifist, and removing an outsider from it's normal role will generally piss someone off if you do not have a very good reason. Profit is not a good reason. The other uses you would probably get away with, if you are Ok with the other risks associated with bag travel, and you had no other good way of achieving something in the outsider's interests.

I'd rather not discuss made-up non-human beings psychology but Planar Ally suggests it's kinda ok (as long as you share profit ;) ).


For it to be "perfectly reasonable" you would have to give the efreet something it wants as well. Anything else, including "in exchange I'll let you live and you get nothing else," is unreasonable.

I disagree. Right in their entry it says that if you catch them then they give you those wishes.

[Psyren]

So you're implying his own life isn't something an efreeti wants?

No, just that to them, death may be preferable to a life of servitude given their description in the MM. But more importantly, they may consider such a contract to be null and void because it was coerced, allowing them to subvert any aspect of it they chose while you thought all was well.




Pretty much, except I'd rather have a DM flat out state that he'd like something to happen a certain way rather than try to 'coerce'it in game.

Of course, as would I. But it's worth pointing out that even purely "by the book" the player's power-grab can be circumvented, just so they know to be forthright in their dealings and not even attempt to take refuge in absurd amounts of legalese. Consider it negotiating from a position of strength, if that helps.



I disagree. Right in their entry it says that if you catch them then they give you those wishes.

Actually, that's in the Noble Djinn entry rather than the efreet one. But more importantly, even when such a clause exists, it doesn't say anything about interpreting their captor's wishes as favorably as possible.

[mangosta71]

That's why you cast it in a dimension locked room with the only un-locked space within another magic circle. "Ah, thank you for showing up. I'll let you out after I'm done explaining to your employee why he shouldn't be wasting your valuable time...and demonstrating to you why you shouldn't waste mine." Then proceed to demonstrate why Wizards are Tier 1 to them both.
Okay. In that case, the particular being that responded to your call has a contingency that casts dispel magic immediately upon entering a magic circle, then casts Gate with his action the first round he appears. If necessary, I'll make a character sheet for him. His boss casts Disjunction on the wizard when he appears and follows with a quickened AMF, then proceeds to show him the downside of a d4 hitdie.

Wizards may be tier 1, but the DM gets to make things be tier 0 at will. I might let you get away with one cast of Planar Binding, but the things you summon will report back about how they got pressed into involuntary service. Next time you summon something, it will be prepared. And angry.

[tyckspoon]

Okay. In that case, the particular being that responded to your call has a contingency that casts dispel magic immediately upon entering a magic circle, then casts Gate with his action the first round he appears. If necessary, I'll make a character sheet for him. His boss casts Disjunction on the wizard when he appears and follows with a quickened AMF, then proceeds to show him the downside of a d4 hitdie.

Wizards may be tier 1, but the DM gets to make things be tier 0 at will. I might let you get away with one cast of Planar Binding, but the things you summon will report back about how they got pressed into involuntary service. Next time you summon something, it will be prepared. And angry.

I'm not sure there is anything you can get with Planar Binding that is capable of Gate.. it's not all that common a power.

Also, aside from the Wish-granters/Weird diviner corner cases, I feel like the difficulty and danger of binding is hugely oversold. I think the most common uses would be a good caster binding a good creature to help in a task that serves good, so why would the creature or its sponsoring power be *mad* about that? At worst I'd expect a response of something like "I am in a task that cannot be delayed, but your cause is worthy. Call Planetar Bob, he'd be glad to help."

Or you're calling something from the lower planes and offering it a chance to hang out on the Prime and cause some murder and mayhem, albeit directed against your enemies. Demons and devils love that stuff. They may want a token payment (or just. To claim responsibility for the souls of those they kill) but again, why would they be upset by that to the point of going out of their way to try and get revenge on the binder?

[Psyren]

^ For the most part, those creatures wouldn't. It's efreet and nightmares specifically - the two that most often come up in PB TO - that hate servitude.

But binding some vrocks or a hezrou or even a succubus to just throw a wild party all over your enemies? Yeah I could easily see them being down for that. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't want payment, because the risk to them from being called is much higher. None of them want to start over as dretches after all.

[Segev]

Okay. In that case, the particular being that responded to your call has a contingency that casts dispel magic immediately upon entering a magic circle, then casts Gate with his action the first round he appears. If necessary, I'll make a character sheet for him. His boss casts Disjunction on the wizard when he appears and follows with a quickened AMF, then proceeds to show him the downside of a d4 hitdie.

Wizards may be tier 1, but the DM gets to make things be tier 0 at will. I might let you get away with one cast of Planar Binding, but the things you summon will report back about how they got pressed into involuntary service. Next time you summon something, it will be prepared. And angry.

*shrug* If the DM is going to say "if you cast this spell, rocks will fall on you and you will die with no save and no contingencies," that's his prerogative, but at that point you're not really playing the game anymore. Ban the spell; it saves everybody time.

[ace rooster]

That's why you cast it in a dimension locked room with the only un-locked space within another magic circle. "Ah, thank you for showing up. I'll let you out after I'm done explaining to your employee why he shouldn't be wasting your valuable time...and demonstrating to you why you shouldn't waste mine." Then proceed to demonstrate why Wizards are Tier 1 to them both.

Beside the fact that your second circle only does anything in conjunction with a planar binding spell, the employer will probably be a combat beast, but his job will mostly be admin, and as such he would not come himself (wizards are scary). He would send whatever anti-wizard monstrosity they keep on retainer for just such an eventuality. CR appropriate? not even close, and built specifically to kill you (entirely in character). The DM is not being unreasonable for letting player stupidity get them killed, and planar binding abuse is playing with fire. What qualifies as abuse is DM dependent.


One idea I have yet to put to use is a planar fishing competition. Planar binding is used to catch fish from the elemental plane of water, with prizes for biggest, most exotic, most colourful, and most alien. Spellcraft, caster level, knowledge the planes and choice of spell affect the attributes of the fish caught. This is the sort of thing that can make Planar binding super cool.

[Miss Disaster]

There was an interesting Dragon Article (back in early 3.5 days) that was authored by the Sage or one of the primary Gamer Designers. The article stated that you could probably do some extensive research to identify and locate a specific Outsider who has unparalleled hatred for a specific species or enemy types. Say, an old Malebranche Baatezu who is a grizzled veteran of the Blood Wars and specializes in feverishly assasinating Hezrou Tanar'ri at every opportunity he gets. Since there are millions upon millions of Blood War fiends still going at it, the odds of finding specific beings like this would seem to be easier than you'd think.

Now, if the wizard's party is soon to be entering a Drow stronghold where there are reputed to be a clutch of Hezrou guarding the main fane complex, binding a Malebranche whose True Name you have acquired *and* fits that criteria of being a fanatical Herzrou assassin (read above) ... then the Wizard should have plenty of initial leverage if hammering out a really cheap binding agreement/cost to acquire its services. Plus, the odds of the Malebranche assassin getting distracted from the mission will be lower because it's so insanely driven to exterminate the temple-guarding Hezrou.

So if you have the research time and the Knowledge skill boosters to ID mission-specific binding candidates for scenarios like this, you should be able to get really good deals with the Binding spells ... and possibly minimize some of its downsides.

[sleepyphoenixx]

One the matter of consequences i like to imagine "what would i/the player do if i were called to do task x for y payment".
Say you summon that Efreet and have it perform a Wish for you, all while being treated like a cosmic mail order service and with the "generous" payment of your life.

If the situation was reversed i'd not be surprised if the majority of players would set off on a interplanar quest of revenge and epic life destruction on the party responsible.
Why would the Efreet do anything else (within his capabilities of course).

[mangosta71]

I'm not sure there is anything you can get with Planar Binding that is capable of Gate.. it's not all that common a power.

There was mention of using PB to get a "minion" with 14 HD that casts as a level 17 cleric. Even if you're getting something less powerful, most outisders have the ability to summon other, more powerful outsiders.

*shrug* If the DM is going to say "if you cast this spell, rocks will fall on you and you will die with no save and no contingencies," that's his prerogative, but at that point you're not really playing the game anymore. Ban the spell; it saves everybody time.
I prefer not to ban things outright. I also specifically said I would do this to players that abuse the spell. (I suppose I should have made it explicitly clear that I would do this only to such characters.) If it's something the PCs rarely cast, and the things they want the outsiders to do are reasonable, that's one thing. If the solution to every problem is "I cast Planar Binding and have an outsider with a CR that's 10 higher than whatever's causing the problem deal with it" I take issue. In part because then everything comes down to the rest of the party sitting on their hands while the wizard's minion handles everything - I want all of my players to be involved. In part because these are powerful immortal beings that don't spring into existence when you summon them or cease to exist when the spell ends. They have their own agendas, duties, plans, etc. and calling them away may result in an unrecoverable disruption of such.

For example, suppose there's currently a battle being waged between a group of devas and a group of demons. Your Planar Binding suddenly compels the being leading the devas to abandon the battlefield. Result: they get overrun while they're disorganized/demoralized. Fixing the resulting mess could become a plot hook for the campaign. And it could make the deva you summoned, who normally would have been willing to assist you, resentful of the meddling mortal who cost him his command, so that the next time you summon him he's hostile instead of friendly/indifferent.

[Psyren]

I prefer not to ban things outright. I also specifically said I would do this to players that abuse the spell. (I suppose I should have made it explicitly clear that I would do this only to such characters.) If it's something the PCs rarely cast, and the things they want the outsiders to do are reasonable, that's one thing. If the solution to every problem is "I cast Planar Binding and have an outsider with a CR that's 10 higher than whatever's causing the problem deal with it" I take issue. In part because then everything comes down to the rest of the party sitting on their hands while the wizard's minion handles everything - I want all of my players to be involved. In part because these are powerful immortal beings that don't spring into existence when you summon them or cease to exist when the spell ends. They have their own agendas, duties, plans, etc. and calling them away may result in an unrecoverable disruption of such.

For example, suppose there's currently a battle being waged between a group of devas and a group of demons. Your Planar Binding suddenly compels the being leading the devas to abandon the battlefield. Result: they get overrun while they're disorganized/demoralized. Fixing the resulting mess could become a plot hook for the campaign. And it could make the deva you summoned, who normally would have been willing to assist you, resentful of the meddling mortal who cost him his command, so that the next time you summon him he's hostile instead of friendly/indifferent.

This is exactly what I've been advocating - punishment to abusers, depth to the gameworld beyond the "bindees" being motivationless statblocks in a bestiary, weaving plot hooks in as a result of the player's request, all of it. Cookie to you sir.

[Miss Disaster]

Kudos to folks like Mangosta and Psyren for interlacing a constructive & collaborative DM interaction dynamic into the use of the party's Planar Binding feats.

***

On a related note, it's intriguing to wonder how the Planar Binding spells would result if the party's spellcaster cast them in real-time combat mode. Specifically via the Uncanny Forethought feat which can reduce the casting time of the spells from 10 minutes down to either a Standard Action or Full Round Action. Or even the BBEG using this method since the UF feat was primarily intended for villain use in the Exemplars of Evil.

A savvy selection of outsider types will likely cause some interesting decisions for the called Outsider. Whether to punish the spellcasting caller ... or have to deal directly with the dangerous combatants who the Outsider was summoned right next to ... or attempt to skedaddle ASAP and get revenge at a later time.

[Psyren]

There was an interesting Dragon Article (back in early 3.5 days) that was authored by the Sage or one of the primary Gamer Designers. The article stated that you could probably do some extensive research to identify and locate a specific Outsider who has unparalleled hatred for a specific species or enemy types. Say, an old Malebranche Baatezu who is a grizzled veteran of the Blood Wars and specializes in feverishly assasinating Hezrou Tanar'ri at every opportunity he gets. Since there are millions upon millions of Blood War fiends still going at it, the odds of finding specific beings like this would seem to be easier than you'd think.

The chance of finding one that is willing to kowtow to mortals though, even mortals that will "allow them" to kill a bunch of Tanar'ri, is much smaller.

Planar Ally is one thing - both they and the cleric have marching orders from the same source, and it's a source that is probalby best left uncrossed by either side. But an arcane spellcaster has no such authority upon which to draw, merely their own ability.

[Rubik]

Okay. In that case, the particular being that responded to your call has a contingency that casts dispel magic immediately upon entering a magic circle, then casts Gate with his action the first round he appears. If necessary, I'll make a character sheet for him. His boss casts Disjunction on the wizard when he appears and follows with a quickened AMF, then proceeds to show him the downside of a d4 hitdie.

Wizards may be tier 1, but the DM gets to make things be tier 0 at will. I might let you get away with one cast of Planar Binding, but the things you summon will report back about how they got pressed into involuntary service. Next time you summon something, it will be prepared. And angry.Actually, the entrapped creature cannot Dispel or affect the Magic Circle in any way, shape, or form. Basically, it's impossible to do anything to the Magic Circle from within the Magic Circle.

[Sam K]

There was an interesting Dragon Article (back in early 3.5 days) that was authored by the Sage or one of the primary Gamer Designers. The article stated that you could probably do some extensive research to identify and locate a specific Outsider who has unparalleled hatred for a specific species or enemy types. Say, an old Malebranche Baatezu who is a grizzled veteran of the Blood Wars and specializes in feverishly assasinating Hezrou Tanar'ri at every opportunity he gets. Since there are millions upon millions of Blood War fiends still going at it, the odds of finding specific beings like this would seem to be easier than you'd think.

Now, if the wizard's party is soon to be entering a Drow stronghold where there are reputed to be a clutch of Hezrou guarding the main fane complex, binding a Malebranche whose True Name you have acquired *and* fits that criteria of being a fanatical Herzrou assassin (read above) ... then the Wizard should have plenty of initial leverage if hammering out a really cheap binding agreement/cost to acquire its services. Plus, the odds of the Malebranche assassin getting distracted from the mission will be lower because it's so insanely driven to exterminate the temple-guarding Hezrou.

So if you have the research time and the Knowledge skill boosters to ID mission-specific binding candidates for scenarios like this, you should be able to get really good deals with the Binding spells ... and possibly minimize some of its downsides.

I dont see a problem with minimizing the downsides through research, but I would be careful about letting people get really good deals. Most outsiders worth binding are old and clever enough to know their value to mortals. The fact that you are able to cast planar binding shows that you are a fairly competent spellcaster, so you clearly have some means to compensate them for their service. It is very unlikely that an evil creature would help you for "only" a win-win soluation, when they could have a win-win AND extract payment from you. Why chose between killing puppies and eating babies if you can have both? Some good creatures may be able to work pro bono for someone who has no way to pay them back, but you're a powerful spellcaster, not an orphanage.

[ace rooster]

Another good (read interesting/fun) metagame use for planar binding/ally is for situations where a party member has been killed, and the party does not have immediate access to ressurection or it will not work. A called outsider can be a surrogate PC until the real one is back in the game. The player would probably prefer to be their character, but it is better than sitting doing nothing, especially if it is suggested by one of the other players rather than the DM (the wizard adding to fun!). It is unlikely to be punished by a DM if he has designed his encounters for a full party, as it makes his job easier.

Binding can be fun RP wise if the outsider has differing motives than the PCs :smallamused:. Having a binding contract preventing PC on PC violence can be useful while allowing tensions to still exist.

Banning it seems heavy handed, given a half decent DM. The issue is that the limits are DM imposed, which makes it very situation dependant. If it makes the DMs job easier, it will probably be OK, otherwise it is dangerous. The reason to not ban it is that it can make the DMs job easier. If in doubt, ask, possible rolling an intelligence check. The DM will probably tell you if it is a bad idea.

[Psyren]

I believe it was the Giant who once said that he saw the Binding/Ally spells as a convenient way to hire help while out in the field. You may not have time to run back to a major city and find a high-level cleric, but getting a planetar to sub in exchange for donating that magic scepter you found to a good-aligned church works just as well.

I like the idea of letting a recently-deceased player take over a bound outsider, especially if said outsider has a radically different alignment than the rest of the PCs and the DM keeps passing them notes.

[Telok]

The three best ways to avoid the downsides of binding outsiders are:

1) Bind what can't fight back. Night Hags are useful for harassing people while Vargouille and Chaos Beasts make pretty good terror weapons. Contrary to my previous statement Retriever cannot be bound, they aren't Outsiders despite being demons. Assimar or Tiefling adventurers (who don't know enough to hide their true names) and Hell Hounds can be forced to supply long term skills or abilities. Picking something that is too stupid or weak to seek revenge is a low power use of a binding, but it is an option.

2) Ask it to do what it already wants to do. Calling up a Barghest to consume a defeated foe is a safe bet (and it keeps the corpse from being raised). Vrocks that you intend to let loose to destroy and rampage are probably happy to be called. Calling a Planetar to cast True Resurrection on the LG cleric who fell into the super-threshing machine trap isn't a bad idea either, although you have to supply the diamonds. Binding Fire Elementals to burn stuff and Water Elementals to sink ships is easy too. As long as the called creature already wants to do what you want it to do then you can get away with a token payment and no real bargaining issues.

3) Pay it. Actually offering the creature something it values in trade for service really does work. This is what Planar Binding is all about, hiring someone to do something for you. Most of the issues around bindings, contracts, and bargaining really involve the PC trying to get something for nothing. Money talks, if you need a pint of angel blood for something just summon an angel and pay it for a blood donation. By not trying to cheese around the spirit of the thing your chances of success go way up.

[Miss Disaster]

I dont see a problem with minimizing the downsides through research, but I would be careful about letting people get really good deals. Most outsiders worth binding are old and clever enough to know their value to mortals. The fact that you are able to cast planar binding shows that you are a fairly competent spellcaster, so you clearly have some means to compensate them for their service. It is very unlikely that an evil creature would help you for "only" a win-win soluation, when they could have a win-win AND extract payment from you. Why chose between killing puppies and eating babies if you can have both? Some good creatures may be able to work pro bono for someone who has no way to pay them back, but you're a powerful spellcaster, not an orphanage.Regarding "really good deals" ... we're talking about giving some reasonable discount for the attempted binding agreement that's about to be brokered by the spellcaster and the DM. With the DM expecting it to be played out appropriately. Expecting detailed binding dialogue and the caster using the successfully researched background knowledge that's being delivered with creative RP salesmanship interaction. Specifically taking into consideration the extraordinary effort that the spellcaster took in doing the extraneous background research and allocating/expending the appropriate character resources to find the specific creature who fits her customization needs (as mentioned in my prior post).

As far as the unlikelyness of the scenario you mentioned above. Of course. But we're talking about the spellcaster spending extraordinary time, effort and resources to locate the Outsider who is that statistical outlier who would fanatically jump at the opportunity to destroy hated ancestral foes ... and who are possibly in a current situation in their Outer Planes existence where they don't have access to accomplish those desires.

This specific angle has been written about in a number of fantasy novels over the years. Especially in Forgotten Realms novels during both the TSR and WotC years. So it's not without precedence.

[Rubik]

I mostly play with core rules, and am not familiar with a lot of extra-PHB spells, so could you please elaborate? I don't know of any spells that increase Diplomacy to that extent, nor any Power Word spells that would affect negotiations (besides the obvious "If you don't work for me, I'll hit you with a Power Word spell" threat).
And slapping a ton of spells on it means that you have to be spending a full day on the matter, assured that you won't be bothered by anything else (which makes it, incidentally, a great tool for NPCs).
Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that the spell is useless, just that I think it's much less applicable to all situations than the forum seems to think.

Also, and this doesn't really lower its utility, but I have to point this out: Does it bother no one else that you have to cast an Evil spell and a Good spell to use planar binding, unless you only use Lawful/Chaotic creatures?Multiple penalties from Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) stack, so there's a -7 from just two castings of it. Greater Bestow Curse adds a further -8 (and can reduce an ability score to 1, as well). A metamagicked Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm) can be substituted for Bestow Curse if you don't have enough higher level spell slots. Alter Self (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) can make you look like something the creature is liable to be more accomodating towards (such as a drow, if you're looking to acquire the services of a yochlol). A Maximized Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) knocks all checks down by -4, and an Empowered/Maximized Enervation hits with an average of 6.5. Hypnotic Pattern (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hypnoticPattern.htm) applies another -4 (with metamagic ensuring that you affect the proper number of HD). Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm) applies a further -2. Scare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scare.htm) also applies a -2. Eagle's Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/eaglesSplendor.htm) gives you a +2, though it doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses (but what wizard would worry about a +4 Cha item?). Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroism.htm) grants a +2 to Diplomacy, if that's the route you want to use. You can use Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm) to ensure that the victim creature finds your demands reasonable. The Fell Frighten metamagic feat would give a -2, and it would stack with any other fear effects available. Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm) gives plant poisons, which could cause any number of effects, from Cha damage to various other debilitating status ailments, and it gives you a huge amount of it, as well, so immunity is the only way to avoid being utterly screwed over. The various Summon Monster spells can pull in critters with useful spell-like abilities for additional options. Not to mention previous uses of Planar Binding for actual clerics and so on. Charm Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonster.htm) pushes enemies to become friends, which makes Diplomancy much easier, and it leads hostile creatures into seeing the caster in a different light. Crushing Despair (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/crushingDespair.htm) grants yet another -2 penalty. Lesser Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasLesser.htm) knocks ability scores down for another -4. Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) into a cloaker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cloaker.htm) for its moan ability for additional penalties, then find some other forms which grant other penalties or bonuses. I haven't looked myself, but I'd be utterly amazed if we couldn't find something to make this work. Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) is another way to drop the creature's Cha score to 1 (and dropping its Int means it's pretty unlikely to understand how you're pulling the proverbial wool over its eyes). Mind Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindFog.htm) makes Sense Motive checks much harder. Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) grants yet another -4 penalty. Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) and its low-level counterpart can knock any buffs off of the creature before you start applying penalties. Every buff knocked off is like another penalty applied. Greater Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroismGreater.htm) is a nice +4, even if it doesn't stack with its lesser cousin. A Permanencied Symbol of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) saves you from having to cast Charm Monster constantly, since you can just set it up in the Calling room and expose your called creatures to it constantly. A Symbol of Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfFear.htm) stacks with other fear effects, and you can set it up just like a Symbol of Persuasion. Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm) grants up to a +25 to any check of your choice. This alone can ensure your success, if you roll even vaguely well.

And that's all wizard/sorcerer stuff, and mostly Core only (minus Greater Bestow Curse, of course). There's much more outside of Core (and outside the wiz/sorc list) to make this even easier.

[Brookshw]

For added fun have the bound creature want the party to do something off plane as payment then bind the party :smallbiggrin:

[icefractal]

I feel like the whole Efreet bargaining thing is a red herring. Efreet are known to be *******s. If you're going to bind one, you need to establish actual control over it (Dominate, Programmed Amnesia, Simulacrum, whatever) before making any wishes. So - that's not really a factor.

And, if it turns out that celestials are going to act like that too, then I guess you use the same methods for them. Planar Binding as a "fetch outsiders" method is still a useful thing.

But speaking of Celestials, there's always the "save the world" exception. If you're in the process of stopping some massive evil, odds are good that you can get celestial help whether or not you can pay for it. I mean, is an angel really going to say "Well, no money, no help, too bad about that zombie apocalypse"?

[Segev]

Honestly, the idea of having a temporarily dead PC's player play an outsider has some very interesting potential.

[Rubik]

You could also do what I do and ask the efreeti for two uncorrupted Wishes in exchange for freely making a Wish on its behalf. Be very polite and courteous, ensure that the efreeti knows that if it screws you over, you'll use your last Wish to ruin it, and that if it continues granting Wishes in a similar fashion, you're more than willing to continue with this agreement in a similar fashion in the future, or you'll gladly call another efreeti instead, and ensure that this one can't be summoned or Planar Bound in any way for the foreseeable future instead of forcing it to grant you the benefits of it.

IE, it's a no-lose-all-win situation for the efreeti, so long as it returns the respect and acts of dignity with which you give it.

[Psyren]

But speaking of Celestials, there's always the "save the world" exception. If you're in the process of stopping some massive evil, odds are good that you can get celestial help whether or not you can pay for it. I mean, is an angel really going to say "Well, no money, no help, too bad about that zombie apocalypse"?

The payment doesn't have to be material. Indeed, Planar Ally in particular specifies that service payments are not just fine, but in many cases preferable, since the outsider (regardless of its alignment) can subtly nudge you toward behaving in a way they deem acceptable with the right task. An angel might task you with locating a slave caravan, rescuing its inhabitants and escorting them back home as payment for helping you with your crisis; a demon may want you to steal an unholy relic that is being kept under lock and key in a good-aligned church's strongbox, which he is unable to enter himself. In either case, both of you gain something. I don't think being unable to afford monetary payment is grounds for immediate refusal.



IE, it's a no-lose-all-win situation for the efreeti, so long as it returns the respect and acts of dignity with which you give it.

Other than the whole servitude to a mortal thing, which they hate. That alone is reason enough for any number of efreeti to deny your request regardless of how appealing you make that third wish sound.

At the very least they may demand to know what your wishes are before agreeing.

[Rubik]

Other than the whole servitude to a mortal thing, which they hate. That alone is reason enough for any number of efreeti to deny your request regardless of how appealing you make that third wish sound.Thing is, it's not servitude. It's partnership. You set out the terms, tell it that you're willing to immediately send it back with a *ahem* Caller ID blocker if it doesn't agree to the partnership with no hard feelings and no questions asked, and all it needs to do is say "no."

The only time you'll mess with it in any way, shape, or form is if it screws you over on your Wishes, in which case the punishment will be quick, severe, and absolute.


At the very least they may demand to know what your wishes are before agreeing.Oh, that'd be fine. The whole point is to engender some amount of trust and agreeability. There's no point in trying to screw it over, since both parties benefit fully from the partnership.

[Lord Raziere]

You mean changing the entire trajectory of the campaign in response to one line of spells? :smallamused:

dude, the entire campaign's trajectory can be changed by a single teleport to a location you did not expect. or something you didn't expect them to scry upon, or heck, just having enough divinatory power to reveal something a paranoid player would be worried about is enough to change the trajectory.

heck, just having too much firepower can do it, as npc's aren't going to be happy that you blew up more than your supposed to and will probably demand some sort of punishment, do it too much and people will start labeling you as the bad guys. and thats just evocation.

spells like wish, or planar binding? they are basically open tickets for the player to do whatever they want, and suddenly all the problems you had planned to throw at them disappear because they snap their fingers and reality is warped so that its not a problem or they command their pet genie to snap their fingers to warp reality for them. a spell like that can not only change the trajectory of the campaign but do so in an endless number of ways repeatedly. and that point I wouldn't be having fun DMing anymore as anything I come up with gets curbstomped by reality-warping powers.

[VoxRationis]

Multiple penalties from Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) stack, so there's a -7 from just two castings of it.

Why do they stack? The rules generally come down pretty hard on stacking (I'm not exactly sure, but I have my doubts about some of the other spells stacking as well—not that I don't recognize the usefulness of using a couple at a time).

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells).
And I don't see anything in the Bestow Curse description about the spell stacking with itself.

In any case, people, thank you for your input.

[Rubik]

Why do they stack? The rules generally come down pretty hard on stacking (I'm not exactly sure, but I have my doubts about some of the other spells stacking as well—not that I don't recognize the usefulness of using a couple at a time).

And I don't see anything in the Bestow Curse description about the spell stacking with itself.

In any case, people, thank you for your input.But (Greater) Bestow Curse applies penalties to different stats. One is for ability checks and skills, and the other is to an ability score.

[Coidzor]

But speaking of Celestials, there's always the "save the world" exception. If you're in the process of stopping some massive evil, odds are good that you can get celestial help whether or not you can pay for it. I mean, is an angel really going to say "Well, no money, no help, too bad about that zombie apocalypse"?

Pfft, you kidding? With a DM against Planar Binding they'll just blame the party for the Zombie Apocalypse and gate back in and murder the party with 50 solars per party member. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Thing is, it's not servitude. It's partnership. You set out the terms, tell it that you're willing to immediately send it back with a *ahem* Caller ID blocker if it doesn't agree to the partnership with no hard feelings and no questions asked, and all it needs to do is say "no."

The only time you'll mess with it in any way, shape, or form is if it screws you over on your Wishes, in which case the punishment will be quick, severe, and absolute.

Getting marching orders of any kind from a mortal smacks of servitude to me. Not saying they wouldn't do it under any circumstances, but they might very well demand more slanted payment, such as two wishes for themselves for 1 to you, or 1 to you/1 to them/1 to achieve some generally LE end. Or they might give you two, but want something in addition to that third wish for themselves, if only just to spite you. Accepting 50% of your own reward as their payment doesn't seem like something a haughty efreet would go for unless it were truly desperate. Remember too that they simply get off on deception and so may be willing to screw you over just to see the look on your face - even years later, if need be.

As for... caller ID blocking, remember that nothing you do at those levels can truly be hidden no matter how many Men-In-Black shenanigans you pull.



Oh, that'd be fine. The whole point is to engender some amount of trust and agreeability. There's no point in trying to screw it over, since both parties benefit fully from the partnership.

And if you weren't playing a filthy mortal they might very well approach the arrangement with the rationality you'd expect. But nobody said they ever had to be rational. Given that they physically enjoy decpetion, caprice and malice, simply appealing to their greed may not be enough to get them to play along. This goes double due to the fact that accepting your terms without complaint or subversion is an implicit acknowledgment that your kidnapping/binding tactics are foolproof - I could see that grating an efreet more than everything else combined.

[Rubik]

Getting marching orders of any kind from a mortal smacks of servitude to me. Not saying they wouldn't do it under any circumstances, but they might very well demand more slanted payment, such as two wishes for themselves for 1 to you, or 1 to you/1 to them/1 to achieve some generally LE end. Or they might give you two, but want something in addition to that third wish for themselves, if only just to spite you. Accepting 50% of your own reward as their payment doesn't seem like something a haughty efreet would go for unless it were truly desperate. Remember too that they simply get off on deception and so may be willing to screw you over just to see the look on your face - even years later, if need be.

As for... caller ID blocking, remember that nothing you do at those levels can truly be hidden no matter how many Men-In-Black shenanigans you pull.

And if you weren't playing a filthy mortal they might very well approach the arrangement with the rationality you'd expect. But nobody said they ever had to be rational. Given that they physically enjoy decpetion, caprice and malice, simply appealing to their greed may not be enough to get them to play along. This goes double due to the fact that accepting your terms without complaint or subversion is an implicit acknowledgment that your kidnapping/binding tactics are foolproof - I could see that grating an efreet more than everything else combined.If it wants to be like that, simply find another. There are lots and lots of them on the Elemental Plane of Fire, after all, and trying again costs you virtually nothing at all.

Plus, they're not elementally Evil. You could call a CG one if you want one, since they can't ALL be Evil. Even fiends, who ARE elementally Evil, have a few Good ones floating around.

[edit] And by "Caller ID blocking," I mean, "Block all attempts at Calling (or Summoning) from this point forward, unless the target is explicitly willing."

[Psyren]

If it wants to be like that, simply find another. There are lots and lots of them on the Elemental Plane of Fire, after all, and trying again costs you virtually nothing at all.

Trying this sort of thing repeatedly seems like a near-certain way of attracting the attention of the City of Brass. If you're lucky, they'll send an Amir or Malik to investigate, who may be in an even better position to fulfill your desires. If you're unlucky... you probably don't want to be unlucky.



Plus, they're not elementally Evil. You could call a CG one if you want one, since they can't ALL be Evil. Even fiends, who ARE elementally Evil, have a few Good ones floating around.

Just because good ones can exist doesn't mean they exist at that particular point in time, or are capable of being called by you. The few good ones that exist may be dimensionally locked inside the City, or imprisoned in Baator. After all, just as you are smart enough to know there must be a handful of good ones somewhere, so are they - and therefore can keep the few good ones that exist alive and sequestered, knowing that simply killing them would just cause more good ones to spontaneously appear somewhere else down the line.

This also works on good-aligned fiends.

[Rubik]

Trying this sort of thing repeatedly seems like a near-certain way of attracting the attention of the City of Brass. If you're lucky, they'll send an Amir or Malik to investigate, who may be in an even better position to fulfill your desires. If you're unlucky... you probably don't want to be unlucky.

Just because good ones can exist doesn't mean they exist at that particular point in time, or are capable of being called by you. The few good ones that exist may be dimensionally locked inside the City, or imprisoned in Baator. After all, just as you are smart enough to know there must be a handful of good ones somewhere, so are they - and therefore can keep the few good ones that exist alive and sequestered, knowing that simply killing them would just cause more good ones to spontaneously appear somewhere else down the line.

This also works on good-aligned fiends.I honestly don't see why anyone would object to someone who offers them an excellent opportunity to benefit from something they can't use anyway, especially since the only strings attached are spelled out clearly and concisely. Djinn are supposed to be intelligent. Recognizing an excellent deal (at the cost of naught but a double-handful of seconds a day for a few decades over the course of their infinitely-long lives) seems to be something they'd leap on.

Evil doesn't necessarily mean stupid, and spiting oneself just to make someone else suffer for having the gall to offer you an amazing deal just seems stupid to me.

[Manly Man]

This is why I love it. Outsiders with more caster levels than hitdie. Easy way to cheat access to higher level spells. Planetars even get domains access!

Bonus points, if you are good, and are summoning something good, and you want them to help you vanquish Evil, you don't really have to do all that much convincing.

Ghaele eladrin are awesome too. Gawds, I love that prismatic spray.

Yes, I know it's a post from more than a page back. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Put it this way - if you're smart/powerful enough that you can extract wishes out of any efreet with zero chance of reprisal or subversion down the line, you're probably smart/powerful enough that they wouldn't want to help you get any smarter or more powerful. Certainly the Sultan would not, as you'd basically be a major player at that point, and more than likely any increase in strength on your part would just lead to binding them even more often.

It might seem irrational to you, but pride often is, and efreet lack for nothing if not pride. It's possible they would respect your legal skills enough to want to aid you voluntarily... but it's just as likely they'd resent you for your ability to so thoroughly command them.

I'm certain you could get specific wishes paid for this way - namely, wishes that not only further your goals, but also those of the efreet in some way that may even (or perhaps especially) be inscrutable to you at the time. After all, if 1 wish for 2 is a good deal, all 3 wishes being for things the efreet wants is even better, even if the person wishing doesn't know or intend it to be that way. But 2 blanket wishes that may or may not benefit the efreet in any way - wishes that might even render the third wish on its behalf meaningless - I don't see any efreet agreeing to that kind of pig in a poke, not without the pot being significantly sweetened in some other way.

[TypoNinja]

Ghaele eladrin are awesome too. Gawds, I love that prismatic spray.

Yes, I know it's a post from more than a page back. :smalltongue:

Movanic Deva, from the Fiend Folio pg 57. 6HD Good outsider with Raise Dead 1/day.

Came up in an E6 thread, earliest possible access to resurrection type magic a party can get.

When you go splat book diving you can find some pretty interesting stuff.

[Erik Vale]

Another good (read interesting/fun) metagame use for planar binding/ally is for situations where a party member has been killed, and the party does not have immediate access to ressurection or it will not work. A called outsider can be a surrogate PC until the real one is back in the game. The player would probably prefer to be their character, but it is better than sitting doing nothing, especially if it is suggested by one of the other players rather than the DM (the wizard adding to fun!). It is unlikely to be punished by a DM if he has designed his encounters for a full party, as it makes his job easier.

Well you could Planar Bind a Native Outsider [Say a Tiefling] that way said player could play his own build.
Spend a Feat on the Dimensional Anchor Spelltouched Feat and he then can't be dismissed [Never Considered Extraplanar, but being a outsider not from this plane he's a acceptable target.]

Also, I like the idea of calling angels for blood donations for devils, but I don't think that'd work particularly well...




But speaking of Celestials, there's always the "save the world" exception. If you're in the process of stopping some massive evil, odds are good that you can get celestial help whether or not you can pay for it. I mean, is an angel really going to say "Well, no money, no help, too bad about that zombie apocalypse"?

Have you watched supernatural perchance?
Sure, plenty of angels are helping, others not so much. And in numbers far beyond the occasional exception to being good.



You could also do what I do and ask the efreeti for two uncorrupted Wishes in exchange for freely making a Wish on its behalf. Be very polite and courteous, ensure that the efreeti knows that if it screws you over, you'll use your last Wish to ruin it, and that if it continues granting Wishes in a similar fashion, you're more than willing to continue with this agreement in a similar fashion in the future, or you'll gladly call another efreeti instead, and ensure that this one can't be summoned or Planar Bound in any way for the foreseeable future instead of forcing it to grant you the benefits of it.

IE, it's a no-lose-all-win situation for the efreeti, so long as it returns the respect and acts of dignity with which you give it.
I actually do this... Of course, said characters have a tendancy to suffer overwhelming challenges, ask for small things, and/or become NPCs.

As for the argument around this, I be very very polite, and when possible ask while under the affects of some sort of shapeshifting or through others [Telepathic Bond+Pearl of Speach+Wild Cohort/some other means of gaining a very friendly animal with 3+ Int [there's a 10ish int small thing or sinking a stat point/another spell]].
Blocks against divination are standard fair. When both have a mutually beneficial contract, are nice, and have pre-arranged meetings so that your not going to accidentally grab him from the shower? That's pretty good.

Also, allow their wishes to cause you some minor discomfort. It'll help prevent far reaching plans that get you completely screwed because he's just playing with you... Sometimes.
The term of the day is respect.

[Pex]

I'm playing a Dark Tapestry Oracle in one of my groups' campaigns. I get Planar Binding as a mystery spell. It's the only sucky thing about the mystery. I know I'll never cast it. I don't like the spell myself, and I know the DM for this particular campaign would make me regret casting it. It's not that he's a dictator DM but anything that's unusually abnormal rubs him the wrong way. He's also a rules lawyer and would utilize the warnings of the spell with vengeance.

My Oracle is Dual Cursed, and the DM already is incensed with the Misfortune Revelation. Monster threatened a critical hit? Roll again! Party member rolled a natural 1 to hit? (He uses the fumble deck.) Roll again! He's going to be even more perturbed at 7th level when I'm a fighting flying gorilla with weightless armor and casting spells silently with Silent Spell feat. As a primate I'll have the hands for the somatic components. I'm not even going to write Planar Binding on my character sheet. The spell does not exist, and I do not get a mystery spell that level.

[mangosta71]

Multiple penalties from Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) stack, so there's a -7 from just two castings of it. Greater Bestow Curse adds a further -8 (and can reduce an ability score to 1, as well). A metamagicked Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm) can be substituted for Bestow Curse if you don't have enough higher level spell slots. Alter Self (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) can make you look like something the creature is liable to be more accomodating towards (such as a drow, if you're looking to acquire the services of a yochlol). A Maximized Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) knocks all checks down by -4, and an Empowered/Maximized Enervation hits with an average of 6.5. Hypnotic Pattern (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hypnoticPattern.htm) applies another -4 (with metamagic ensuring that you affect the proper number of HD). Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm) applies a further -2. Scare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scare.htm) also applies a -2. Eagle's Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/eaglesSplendor.htm) gives you a +2, though it doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses (but what wizard would worry about a +4 Cha item?). Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroism.htm) grants a +2 to Diplomacy, if that's the route you want to use. You can use Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm) to ensure that the victim creature finds your demands reasonable. The Fell Frighten metamagic feat would give a -2, and it would stack with any other fear effects available. Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm) gives plant poisons, which could cause any number of effects, from Cha damage to various other debilitating status ailments, and it gives you a huge amount of it, as well, so immunity is the only way to avoid being utterly screwed over. The various Summon Monster spells can pull in critters with useful spell-like abilities for additional options. Not to mention previous uses of Planar Binding for actual clerics and so on. Charm Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonster.htm) pushes enemies to become friends, which makes Diplomancy much easier, and it leads hostile creatures into seeing the caster in a different light. Crushing Despair (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/crushingDespair.htm) grants yet another -2 penalty. Lesser Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasLesser.htm) knocks ability scores down for another -4. Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) into a cloaker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cloaker.htm) for its moan ability for additional penalties, then find some other forms which grant other penalties or bonuses. I haven't looked myself, but I'd be utterly amazed if we couldn't find something to make this work. Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) is another way to drop the creature's Cha score to 1 (and dropping its Int means it's pretty unlikely to understand how you're pulling the proverbial wool over its eyes). Mind Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindFog.htm) makes Sense Motive checks much harder. Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) grants yet another -4 penalty. Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) and its low-level counterpart can knock any buffs off of the creature before you start applying penalties. Every buff knocked off is like another penalty applied. Greater Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroismGreater.htm) is a nice +4, even if it doesn't stack with its lesser cousin. A Permanencied Symbol of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) saves you from having to cast Charm Monster constantly, since you can just set it up in the Calling room and expose your called creatures to it constantly. A Symbol of Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfFear.htm) stacks with other fear effects, and you can set it up just like a Symbol of Persuasion. Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm) grants up to a +25 to any check of your choice. This alone can ensure your success, if you roll even vaguely well.

And that's all wizard/sorcerer stuff, and mostly Core only (minus Greater Bestow Curse, of course). There's much more outside of Core (and outside the wiz/sorc list) to make this even easier.
And while you're spending 20-30 rounds debuffing it, I guess it just sits there doing nothing. (Incidentally, is this how you "show respect" or "treat them with dignity"?) In other news, I see nothing in the Planar Binding spell description that says the outsider you summon can't dispel the Magic Circle (the PHB explicitly states that the outsider can attempt to break free). Even if he can't overcome the circle, he can dispel the Dimensional Anchor and leave (casting a bunch of debuffs sends a pretty clear signal that your intent is hostile, so if it's as intelligent as you claim it should be seeking an escape).

And of course, if you Feeblemind it, it will no longer be capable of understanding, much less accepting, any sort of deal. Eventually he'll go home and one of his friends will cure him, and the caster will have a whole plane full of enemies.

Or the DM can just fudge the roll so that the called outsider succeeds on the Will save and doesn't appear.

[Rubik]

And while you're spending 20-30 rounds debuffing it, I guess it just sits there doing nothing. (Incidentally, is this how you "show respect" or "treat them with dignity"?)Efreeti are different than other things. They actually have something innate to them that you can use to get their support. The debuffing-the-crap-out-of-them applies to other things, that don't.

Doesn't mean you can't buff yourself up, however.


In other news, I see nothing in the Planar Binding spell description that says the outsider you summon can't dispel the Magic Circle (the PHB explicitly states that the outsider can attempt to break free). Even if he can't overcome the circle, he can dispel the Dimensional Anchor and leave (casting a bunch of debuffs sends a pretty clear signal that your intent is hostile, so if it's as intelligent as you claim it should be seeking an escape).The spell itself says how the creature can break free:

The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier).And Dispelling it isn't on the list.


And of course, if you Feeblemind it, it will no longer be capable of understanding, much less accepting, any sort of deal. Eventually he'll go home and one of his friends will cure him, and the caster will have a whole plane full of enemies.A whole plane? Really?


Or the DM can just fudge the roll so that the called outsider succeeds on the Will save and doesn't appear.Then cast it again. And again. And again. It's not like it takes anything but prep-work (which you do once) and then a casting of the spell.

[Arbane]

Eventually he'll go home and one of his friends will cure him, and the caster will have a whole plane full of enemies.


I had no idea the Abyss was unionized.

[Psyren]

I had no idea the Abyss was unionized.

Efreet are Lawful actually, and they live on the Plane of Fire; however, the City of Brass has permanent portals to Baator (Hell) and they routinely trade souls and other commodities. An efreet would have no problem either getting backup against an uppity mortal or with wanting to corrupt him and turn him over to some devil for a reward under the terms of the PP.

[Erik Vale]

I had no idea the Abyss was unionized.


Ha, Cookie for you.

Ok, so we have a reason not to summon from Mechanus. But any evil/chaotic/neutral plane is definately fair game... To bad there isn't a limbo version of Effreti.

Edit: Ok, so you have reason that an Effreti could grab a devil for comming after you. Some random, low HD so bottom rung Effreti.
How's he finding you? Or even better, why doesn't he use it as a excuse to use his slaves to wish him immune to planar binding or to push his will save through the roof?

[VoxRationis]

The spell itself says how the creature can break free:

The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier).And Dispelling it isn't on the list.



That section is describing ways peculiar to the spell in which it can break loose, not the only ways (otherwise, things like clever tricks and wordplay wouldn't count for anything). And I agree with the assessment that the magic circle spell doesn't say anything about dispel magic being ineffective against it from within. Of course, dispel magic isn't a guaranteed success, but still.

[Rubik]

That section is describing ways peculiar to the spell in which it can break loose, not the only ways (otherwise, things like clever tricks and wordplay wouldn't count for anything). And I agree with the assessment that the magic circle spell doesn't say anything about dispel magic being ineffective against it from within. Of course, dispel magic isn't a guaranteed success, but still.I assume you missed the part where Magic Circle says:

A magic circle leaves much to be desired as a trap. If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can. If the called creature has spell resistance, it can test the trap once a day. If you fail to overcome its spell resistance, the creature breaks free, destroying the circle. A creature capable of any form of dimensional travel (astral projection, blink, dimension door, etherealness, gate, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar abilities) can simply leave the circle through that means. You can prevent the creature’s extradimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts. If you are successful, the anchor effect lasts as long as the magic circle does. The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.

You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20.

A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above.

And the Dimensional Anchor cast on the Magic Circle affects the Magic Circle, so a creature trapped within can't rid itself of the DA effect without destroying the Magic Circle spell.

[VoxRationis]

Hm. I believe that to be a matter of interpretation. Your reading has validity, but I would, with equal validity, interpret that to mean that the physical circle cannot be broken by the creature—the magic behind it is another matter, as it doesn't mention not being able to do anything to the spell. Unless you decree that dispel magic is accompanied by some sort of flavor text involving rushing winds or small explosions, getting rid of the spell won't actually break the circle—just make it irrelevant.
That said, I think I would have to submit to your interpretation, were you the DM. It comes down to DM interpretation at the bottom line.

[Rubik]

Hm. I believe that to be a matter of interpretation. Your reading has validity, but I would, with equal validity, interpret that to mean that the physical circle cannot be broken by the creature—the magic behind it is another matter, as it doesn't mention not being able to do anything to the spell. Unless you decree that dispel magic is accompanied by some sort of flavor text involving rushing winds or small explosions, getting rid of the spell won't actually break the circle—just make it irrelevant.
That said, I think I would have to submit to your interpretation, were you the DM. It comes down to DM interpretation at the bottom line.If casting Dispel Magic would disturb the Magic Circle Against [Alignment], it cannot effectively do so, as per the spell's text.

I'm not sure how interpretation has anything to do with it, since it flat-out says, "The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly," especially since it specifies "the diagram" later on, distinguishing that from the magic circle effect earlier on.

[LordBlades]

By in-setting logic, if efreeti can make 'one wish for me and one for you' deals they most likely wouldn't have any wishes to grant at all IMO. Why, instead of waiting to be bound and having to bargain with a powerful spellcaster wouldn't an efreet pick up some poor sod with no chance of ever being a threat (like a farmer or a begger) and offer him the deal of a lifetime: one wish for 25.000 gold pieces in exchange for spending 30 seconds every day wishing for 3 things on the efreet's behalf, preferrably in a kanguage he doesn't even speak (like Ignan)?

[ryu]

By in-setting logic, if efreeti can make 'one wish for me and one for you' deals they most likely wouldn't have any wishes to grant at all IMO. Why, instead of waiting to be bound and having to bargain with a powerful spellcaster wouldn't an efreet pick up some poor sod with no chance of ever being a threat (like a farmer or a begger) and offer him the deal of a lifetime: one wish for 25.000 gold pieces in exchange for spending 30 seconds every day wishing for 3 things on the efreet's behalf, preferrably in a kanguage he doesn't even speak (like Ignan)?

Pretty sure the efreeti wish power thing doesn't work unless the thing is genuinely captured. The thing can't just go find people and force them to make wishes. That power only works when someone has bound or trapped them in some other way.

[Rubik]

Pretty sure the efreeti wish power thing doesn't work unless the thing is genuinely captured. The thing can't just go find people and force them to make wishes. That power only works when someone has bound or trapped them in some other way.Yeah. It does specify that it can only grant them to someone who captures it.

I imagine that any instance of Planar Binding is a form of capture, even if the time was agreed upon beforehand (since the genie can't stop it from happening even if he decides he doesn't want to do it anymore).

[ryu]

Yeah. It does specify that it can only grant them to someone who captures it.

I imagine that any instance of Planar Binding is a form of capture, even if the time was agreed upon beforehand (since the genie can't stop it from happening even if he decides he doesn't want to do it anymore).

Though he can request it to end and the wizard would comply and find someone else. Not doing so would kinda defeat the point of the kinder more businesslike method. It is important to note that the thing isn't escaping the thing under its own power in that circumstance.

[Rubik]

Though he can request it to end and the wizard would comply and find someone else. Not doing so would kinda defeat the point of the kinder more businesslike method. It is important to note that the thing isn't escaping the thing under its own power in that circumstance.Right.

Though according to others in this thread, efreeti consider genuine compassion and desire to be fair and accommodating from mortals a form of torture or something.

[Deophaun]

And while you're spending 20-30 rounds debuffing it, I guess it just sits there doing nothing.
Pretty much...

A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram.
Between that and not being allowed to directly or indirectly affect the magic circle, the only thing the creature can do is self-buff.

[Erik Vale]

Nope. It could summon something else inside the circle that is unaffected. As long as it doesn't tell the other to disrupt the circle when the other guy does it'll be entirely legal... Which is why you don't summon Native Outsider Casters.

[Rubik]

Nope. It could summon something else inside the circle that is unaffected. As long as it doesn't tell the other to disrupt the circle when the other guy does it'll be entirely legal... Which is why you don't summon Native Outsider Casters.That's also why you erect a Dimensional Anchor, which prevents summoning and additional calling just fine. :smallbiggrin:

[TypoNinja]

That's also why you erect a Dimensional Anchor, which prevents summoning and additional calling just fine. :smallbiggrin:

You need the dimensional anchor anyway since it is allowed to teleport/dimensional travel out of the circle.

[Rubik]

That's also why you erect a Dimensional Anchor, which prevents summoning and additional calling just fine. :smallbiggrin:Oh, and not to mention that a summoned monster is a spell effect, which cannot pass through the Magic Circle. Period.

[Erik Vale]

That's why you try not to make mistakes and accidentally summon low level summoners before your ready. Sure, their at a disadvantage, that won't help you much when they hit you in a surprise round.

[Rubik]

That's why you try not to make mistakes and accidentally summon low level summoners before your you're ready. Sure, their they're at a disadvantage,; that won't help you much when they hit you in a surprise round.You mean with the attacks and spell effects the creature can't affect you with, either because they're not there at all or because they can't cross the warding line?

[LordBlades]

Pretty sure the efreeti wish power thing doesn't work unless the thing is genuinely captured. The thing can't just go find people and force them to make wishes. That power only works when someone has bound or trapped them in some other way.

That's the Noble Djinni entry. Unless I'm blatantly missing an obvious paragraph or it's been errata-ed somewhere, efreeti have no such restriction. Only reference in the Efreeti text and stat block is ' 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only)'.

[Psyren]

Pretty sure the efreeti wish power thing doesn't work unless the thing is genuinely captured. The thing can't just go find people and force them to make wishes. That power only works when someone has bound or trapped them in some other way.


Yeah. It does specify that it can only grant them to someone who captures it.

Where does it say that? The Noble Djinn entry mentions capture, but the Efreet one says nothing about circumstance other than that the wishes are only usable by nongenies.



Though according to others in this thread, efreeti consider genuine compassion and desire to be fair and accommodating from mortals a form of torture or something.

Not torture, just insulting. Imagine, a mortal deigning to be generous and accommodating to them, the sheer audacity; like a mouse promising to let you live.

Worse, you have the nerve to place requirements on them; requirements to not do the very things they enjoy doing most mind you (misleading and being cruel) indefinitely. No, any efreet worthy of the name would immediately set about trying to turn your agreement on its head.

[mangosta71]

Ah, didn't check the Magic Circle description. But the dimensional anchor is a separate spell, which means it can be dispelled. And if the DM is fudging the roll so that your target makes its Will save, do you honestly think he's going to not fudge the roll again when you try again? As a last resort, the summoned creature can coup de grace itself and intentionally fail the Fort save to get out, and then you can't summon it again for 100 years. Or it can cast Commune and have something on its home plane summon you into a Magic Circle to give you a taste of your own medicine while it just waits out the duration. And then you'll be under constant surveillance from that plane, granting any being native to it a +9001 circumstance bonus to Will saves against your summonings.

Really, all this is doing is convincing me that you have no intention of ever playing fair if you use the spell. I hope that your DM is creative enough to make you pay for it. Getting into an arms race with the DM is probably the stupidest thing you can do at the table.

[Socksy]

Also, from an IC stand point it would be folly for a wizard not to invest a few spell slots into boosting profession (lawyer) to make sure the deal offered is really unlikely to be twisted or gotten out of.

My brother currently plays a genie PC with ranks in Profession(Psychologist).

[KorbeltheReader]

As a last resort, the summoned creature can coup de grace itself and intentionally fail the Fort save to get out, and then you can't summon it again for 100 years.

On the calling subschool (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Calling_Subschool):

Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell.

I agree with your broader point about getting into an arms race with the GM, though. I've often wondered about the possibility of outsiders "calling" prime material spellcasters with similar spells, though I don't know of any spells that allow it.

I think the lesson of this thread is that planar binding, aside from recruiting a planar cohort for an adventure, has lots of amazing uses that are technically legal but will usually result in either a GM "hard" ban (flat out saying "no") or a GM "soft" ban (spinning out lots of unfavorable repercussions with the intention of making you regret having used it).

[mangosta71]

On the calling subschool (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Calling_Subschool):
Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell.
A character that dies has its "soul" transported to the appropriate plane, so that should hold true for a called outsider as well. I always figured that death during a summon effect doesn't result in the 100 year banishment from the Prime Material plane, but death during a call effect does.

I agree with your broader point about getting into an arms race with the GM, though. I've often wondered about the possibility of outsiders "calling" prime material spellcasters with similar spells, though I don't know of any spells that allow it.
You're an outsider on their plane, so Planar Binding itself should work.

[Rubik]

Not torture, just insulting. Imagine, a mortal deigning to be generous and accommodating to them, the sheer audacity; like a mouse promising to let you live.It's not really insulting if the mouse is fully capable of destroying you without much effort, and you know it.


Worse, you have the nerve to place requirements on them; requirements to not do the very things they enjoy doing most mind you (misleading and being cruel) indefinitely. No, any efreet worthy of the name would immediately set about trying to turn your agreement on its head.So they're insane asshats with immense power and are a threat to all sentient life in the multiverse, since they refuse to not torment and torture anything, including themselves, even at the cost of their own lives. Gotcha. I guess if they're all like that, with no exceptions, I can feel free to nullify their threat with more prejudice than I would with the worst of the fiends (since many of them at least will act rationally, and protect their own wellbeing) and enforce servitude on as many as I can call on a daily basis, and I don't even need to feel morally obligated to give them any kind of consideration whatsoever.

Now I can debuff and kill/undeadify them to harvest Wishes and not even have to feel bad about it.

Either way, I'm getting what I want, and they can't stop me. If they want to act rationally, then great. If not, well, it sucks to be them.


Ah, didn't check the Magic Circle description. But the dimensional anchor is a separate spell, which means it can be dispelled.Except if you cast the D.A. on the Magic Circle, the D.A. effect is explicitly part of the Magic Circle. So no.

Magic Circle Against Evil
A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell.

[VoxRationis]

Nope. It could summon something else inside the circle that is unaffected. As long as it doesn't tell the other to disrupt the circle when the other guy does it'll be entirely legal... Which is why you don't summon Native Outsider Casters.

Can you even summon Native Outsiders? The spell description says you summon "an extraplanar creature," not a creature of the Outsider type. A native Outsider by definition isn't an extraplanar creature, even though it has the Outsider type, but an elemental would be, even though it does not.

[mangosta71]

Except if you cast the D.A. on the Magic Circle, the D.A. effect is explicitly part of the Magic Circle. So no.

Magic Circle Against Evil
A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell.
The Circle is complete before the DA is cast. It is explicitly cast on the circle, not part of the circle.

[Psyren]

It's not really insulting if the mouse is fully capable of destroying you without much effort, and you know it.

If that is truly the case then why voluntarily help the mouse? You talk a big game about mutually beneficial partnerships, but in the end you are just strongarming them like any other archfiend or evil deity or evil cultist/geniebinder would. In which case they have no reason not to try and betray you at some point, simply because once they've outlived their usefulness you can easily do the same to them.

More to the point, if you're really that powerful that you can take on any number of efreeti effortlessly why do you need them in the first place?



So they're insane asshats with immense power and are a threat to all sentient life in the multiverse, since they refuse to not torment and torture anything, including themselves, even at the cost of their own lives. Gotcha. I guess if they're all like that, with no exceptions, I can feel free to nullify their threat with more prejudice than I would with the worst of the fiends (since many of them at least will act rationally, and protect their own wellbeing) and enforce servitude on as many as I can call on a daily basis, and I don't even need to feel morally obligated to give them any kind of consideration whatsoever.

Now I can debuff and kill/undeadify them to harvest Wishes and not even have to feel bad about it.

Of course they're a threat to the multiverse, their ultimate goal is to enslave everyone and everything. It's no different than Asmodeus and his cronies. Both groups take a very long view is all.

Your goal is to eliminate all danger in dealing with them and that just wouldn't fly; it's literally incompatible with their basic nature.

What you should instead do is what every one else who deals with them does - expect betrayal, have general-purpose contingencies in place, and deal with each attempt as it comes. Then would be the ideal time to annihilate them for their impertinence and bind a new one, if they try anything. But trying to pre-emptively restrict one to mewling mildness for eternity is doomed to fail.

[KorbeltheReader]

You're an outsider on their plane, so Planar Binding itself should work.

I don't think you can, actually. The outsider type (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Outsider_Type) isn't relative:

An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.
Planar binding specifically targets elementals or outsiders, so I don't think a being from the elemental plane of fire could use it to bind a human conjurer. Gate, on the other hand, can call anything, so that's an option I suppose, assuming you have something that can cast it. As a bonus, you control the called being with no save as long as the task needed takes less than a round/level, so perhaps a clever genie could arrange a fight with something extremely powerful, gate in the offending wizard, have the creature kill him, and then escape.

[DeltaEmil]

A character that dies has its "soul" transported to the appropriate plane, so that should hold true for a called outsider as well. I always figured that death during a summon effect doesn't result in the 100 year banishment from the Prime Material plane, but death during a call effect does.

You're an outsider on their plane, so Planar Binding itself should work.No, a humanoid only gains the extraplanar subtype if they're not on their home plane. Genies cannot call humanoids with a Planar Binding spell, because that can only bring elementals or outsiders.

[Rubik]

If that is truly the case then why voluntarily help the mouse? You talk a big game about mutually beneficial partnerships, but in the end you are just strongarming them like any other archfiend or evil deity or evil cultist/geniebinder would. In which case they have no reason not to try and betray you at some point, simply because once they've outlived their usefulness you can easily do the same to them.Thing is, they're not elementally Evil. They might be greedy and generally severely cantankerous, but that doesn't mean they're self-destructively vile. They should be able to recognize an amazing deal when they see it, especially how genies in general are characterized as shrewd business-beings, capable of capitalizing on an opportunity.

And while haggling for a better deal is well within their greedy natures, they can only really do so when they have the upper hand in a situation -- or at least appear to have it. But in the case of a Planar Bound efreeti, it has no such thing, and both parties know it. The fact that one is being offered a partnership rather than slavery -- when the wizard has every advantage and doesn't need to offer a partnership -- is already a fantastic deal, especially since the efreeti has an easy-out clause already built-in, both at the moment and in the future.

If they're as self-destructively psychotic as you think they are, however, they need to be utterly dominated and chained to a good cause -- or destroyed. And wizards are eminently suitable for doing so, since a wizard's strength is in preparation, and any given wizard can utterly obliterate anything he decides to pull in with enough prep-work, even if it's just a book full of Explosive Runes and a low-CL Dispel.

The efreeti is in the worst possible bargaining position, since it has what the wizard wants, and the wizard can take it with little to-do. It's even worse than the efreeti having nothing to offer, since in that case, the wizard wouldn't have any reason to go after it in the first place. The fact that the wizard is offering a show of respect is a good sign, and any canny businessman should have enough sense to not smack a fiendish hornets' nest with his face, since this particular nest can wipe him out without much effort.


More to the point, if you're really that powerful that you can take on any number of efreeti effortlessly why do you need them in the first place?Because efreeti are relatively easy to call, easy to take down when they're helpless, and have an ability far above what their level suggests they should have? I mean, it's a CR 8 with Wishes. It should be self-explanatory.


Of course they're a threat to the multiverse, their ultimate goal is to enslave everyone and everything. It's no different than Asmodeus and his cronies. Both groups take a very long view is all.And yet if they don't have the self-preservation instincts to yield to someone who obviously has the upper hand, they probably deserve what they get. I mean, highly-prepared wizard, who specifically spent time optimizing himself for the situation. What's not to fear about that?


Your goal is to eliminate all danger in dealing with them and that just wouldn't fly; it's literally incompatible with their basic nature.Prepared wizard. It's literally impossible for the thing to win, barring outside circumstances outside its control. Whether the caster is enticing it to do what he wants through a fair deal or he's forcing it to do as he wants through debuffs and domination or he's obliterating it for trying to renege on their deal, the efreeti literally has no chance to succeed, outside of choosing which way the encounter goes down. Deal with the mortal apocalypse fairly? It benefits and is set free, but must deal with the mortal in the future. Turn down the offer? It's set free, with no hard feelings on the wizard's part. Try to spite the wizard by twisting the Wishes? Eternal slavery or obliteration. Try to get revenge on the wizard by coming after him? Earn the wrath of someone with scry-n-die access and a potential army of Planar Bound minions just as powerful as the efreeti (or more).

You do not mess with a highly prepared T1 caster.


What you should instead do is what every one else who deals with them does - expect betrayal, have general-purpose contingencies in place, and deal with each attempt as it comes. Then would be the ideal time to annihilate them for their impertinence and bind a new one, if they try anything. But trying to pre-emptively restrict one to mewling mildness for eternity is doomed to fail.It's not mewling mildness. It's good business sense, and good common sense in general. You don't intentionally piss off someone capable of enslaving you for eternity, obliterating your body, and devouring your soul for crafting components. You just don't.

[Psyren]

Thing is, they're not elementally Evil. They might be greedy and generally severely cantankerous, but that doesn't mean they're self-destructively vile. They should be able to recognize an amazing deal when they see it, especially how genies in general are characterized as shrewd business-beings, capable of capitalizing on an opportunity.

And while haggling for a better deal is well within their greedy natures, they can only really do so when they have the upper hand in a situation -- or at least appear to have it. But in the case of a Planar Bound efreeti, it has no such thing, and both parties know it. The fact that one is being offered a partnership rather than slavery -- when the wizard has every advantage and doesn't need to offer a partnership -- is already a fantastic deal, especially since the efreeti has an easy-out clause already built-in, both at the moment and in the future.

Yanking someone away from whatever they happen to be doing and then offering to not slaughter or enslave them may be a "fantastic deal" (though not, as you believe, very respectful) in the short term, but it's hardly the sort of situation that fosters lasting partnerships or cooperations. However powerful you may be, you're still a mortal (unless you obtained a spot in the pantheon anyway) and so your means of gaining contact still amounts to effrontery.

You will certainly have the upper hand in the short run, and may even get your first set of wishes out of it. I'm just saying that expecting no reprisal at all, even if you "allow" the efreet to have a few token wishes for itself, is unlikely.



If they're as self-destructively psychotic as you think they are, however, they need to be utterly dominated and chained to a good cause -- or destroyed. And wizards are eminently suitable for doing so, since a wizard's strength is in preparation, and any given wizard can utterly obliterate anything he decides to pull in with enough prep-work, even if it's just a book full of Explosive Runes and a low-CL Dispel
...
Because efreeti are relatively easy to call, easy to take down when they're helpless, and have an ability far above what their level suggests they should have? I mean, it's a CR 8 with Wishes. It should be self-explanatory.
...
Prepared wizard. It's literally impossible for the thing to win, barring outside circumstances outside its control. Whether the caster is enticing it to do what he wants through a fair deal or he's forcing it to do as he wants through debuffs and domination or he's obliterating it for trying to renege on their deal, the efreeti literally has no chance to succeed, outside of choosing which way the encounter goes down. Deal with the mortal apocalypse fairly? It benefits and is set free, but must deal with the mortal in the future. Turn down the offer? It's set free, with no hard feelings on the wizard's part. Try to spite the wizard by twisting the Wishes? Eternal slavery or obliteration. Try to get revenge on the wizard by coming after him? Earn the wrath of someone with scry-n-die access and a potential army of Planar Bound minions just as powerful as the efreeti (or more).

You do not mess with a highly prepared T1 caster.


Regular efreet are CR 8, sure. How about the Amirs? The Maliks? The 6 Pashas? The Sultan himself, who may or may not be on par with Asmodeus, and who has treasure vaults full of magic items and even some artifacts? How far are you willing to go, how many efreet to enthrall or obliterate, to attract that kind of attention?

You may as well go after Asmodeus or Vecna at that point - and hell, if you persist, it may even come to that. And why not, T1 can do anything right? Why stop with a piddly handful of free wishes when you can rule the cosmos for eternity, right? What's stopping you?



And yet if they don't have the self-preservation instincts to yield to someone who obviously has the upper hand, they probably deserve what they get. I mean, highly-prepared wizard, who specifically spent time optimizing himself for the situation. What's not to fear about that?

There's plenty to fear or even respect. But as I said above, intimidation only guarantees short-term cooperation, not long-term alliances.



It's not mewling mildness. It's good business sense, and good common sense in general. You don't intentionally piss off someone capable of enslaving you for eternity, obliterating your body, and devouring your soul for crafting components. You just don't.

And if you were a deity that might even matter. But being a mortal - regardless of how powerful you are - is going to foster resentment in these things - if not right away then over time. Not to mention greed for your (evidently very powerful) soul as a commodity in its own right.

[Erik Vale]

Can you even summon Native Outsiders? The spell description says you summon "an extraplanar creature," not a creature of the Outsider type. A native Outsider by definition isn't an extraplanar creature, even though it has the Outsider type, but an elemental would be, even though it does not.

Yes.
You bind one from Sigil/Other plane of your choice.

As for the over blowing about binding Asmodeus... He has too many HD unless your fiddling with epic spells, in which case why not. And Asmodeus and has probably learned Human Binding, in addition to being statless.

[TypoNinja]

Yes.
You bind one from Sigil/Other plane of your choice.

As for the over blowing about binding Asmodeus... He has too many HD unless your fiddling with epic spells, in which case why not. And Asmodeus and has probably learned Human Binding, in addition to being statless.

Statless? The Lords of the Nine all have stats.

[BrokenChord]

I like Planar Binding because I can make ALL the elementally Good outsiders fall. Grab an angel or other Good-subtype extraplanar that can wield a weapon, tank its Charisma check comparatively to your into nothingness, offer it a Holy Avenger, and laugh as it destroys and pillages an orphanage and tortures any who survive the initial onslaught.

Well, that's just me being trollzy, I suppose. I have only once used Planar Binding for any other purpose, and that was to capture a Noble Djinn that I knew by name so I could use the Wishes for plot purposes.

[Erik Vale]

Statless? The Lords of the Nine all have stats.

I thought only his Avatars/[Other word meaning similar] had actual stats, and that they were just in range for Dragon Mag [Normally Banned] + Class Boosting version of planar binding.

[Deophaun]

But the dimensional anchor is a separate spell, which means it can be dispelled.
If the dimensional anchor was cast inside the circle, sure. But it's cast on the circle, which means dispelling it would a) disturb the circle and b) cross the circle, so can't do that.

Really, it's meant to be the perfect trap for a host of creatures that tend to have (greater) dispel magic as an at-will SLA ability, provided the spellcaster prepares it correctly. The correct way to deal with abuse has already been stated: disruptive bindings attract unwanted attention.

[Particle_Man]

As far as I can tell, "If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you." means if you roll a 1 on the die, meaning the creature always has a 5% chance of breaking free regardless of how high your charisma score is.

So planar binding is always risky when I DM (although of course if the party is able to take out a creature that can break free, more power to the party).

[Rubik]

As far as I can tell, "If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you." means if you roll a 1 on the die, meaning the creature always has a 5% chance of breaking free regardless of how high your charisma score is.

So planar binding is always risky when I DM (although of course if the party is able to take out a creature that can break free, more power to the party).Yay rerolls!

I like to invest in them for just this type of situation.

[ryu]

Yay rerolls!

I like to invest in them for just this type of situation.

Preferably arbitrarily large amounts of them if possible. I've lost 1/8,000 chance to fail situations before. We crushed that D20 in a vice afterwords, but the point of possibly severe unluck stands.

[Psyren]

Preferably arbitrarily large amounts of them if possible. I've lost 1/8,000 chance to fail situations before. We crushed that D20 in a vice afterwords, but the point of possibly severe unluck stands.

By any chance, did you play R2-D2 in a Star Wars campaign slash webcomic? :smalltongue:

[ryu]

By any chance, did you play R2-D2 in a Star Wars campaign slash webcomic? :smalltongue:

Nawp. I like power. I am inherently against the very concept of cheating though.

[Rubik]

By any chance, did you play R2-D2 in a Star Wars campaign slash webcomic? :smalltongue:>.>

Did someone say...slash?

<.<

[Psyren]

>.>

Did someone say...slash?

<.<

Lol! I meant the punctuation mark.

[Rubik]

Lol! I meant the punctuation mark.Crud. I like slash.

Well, well-written slash, anyway.

Also, entirely unrelated. It just updated! (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/52/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20)

[ryu]

Crud. I like slash.

Well, well-written slash, anyway.

Also, entirely unrelated. It just updated! (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/52/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20)

I'm a methods of rationality man myself.

[Rubik]

I'm a methods of rationality man myself.No reason you can't like both...

...AND slash. Though it's just as well that we can't mix and match.

[mangosta71]

Picking through spell descriptions yields some interesting tidbits.

When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle.

A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell.

So, by RAW, you cast the Magic Circle, then the next round you cast Dimensional Anchor, and then the next round you cast whatever summon spell. But by then you're outside the 1 round window that the Circle allows for summoning, especially given that preparing the diagram takes 10 minutes.

Also by RAW, the circle has a 3 foot diameter. This means that many outsiders/elementals are too large to fit inside.
If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only.

And then we get into RP difficulties. Summoning a creature and forcing it to serve you or die is slavery (Evil), no matter the alignment of the creature summoned. Any Good-aligned party members will have ethical issues with you doing this. Any paladins will be obligated to stop you or fall.

But, ya know, if you haven't provoked your DM's wrath by abusing the spell, he might let a few RAW things slide. And as long as you aren't doing Evil things you won't have to fight the rest of your party.

[Particle_Man]

And then we get into RP difficulties. Summoning a creature and forcing it to serve you or die is slavery (Evil), no matter the alignment of the creature summoned. Any Good-aligned party members will have ethical issues with you doing this. Any paladins will be obligated to stop you or fall.

One way around that is to use the Malconvoker, who, if you play one, then "Starting at 6th level, you become exceptionally adept at convincing evil creatures you call that your intentions parallel their own". So basically you trick them into thinking this is a Planar Ally spell instead. :smallbiggrin:

[Sam K]

Regarding "really good deals" ... we're talking about giving some reasonable discount for the attempted binding agreement that's about to be brokered by the spellcaster and the DM. With the DM expecting it to be played out appropriately. Expecting detailed binding dialogue and the caster using the successfully researched background knowledge that's being delivered with creative RP salesmanship interaction. Specifically taking into consideration the extraordinary effort that the spellcaster took in doing the extraneous background research and allocating/expending the appropriate character resources to find the specific creature who fits her customization needs (as mentioned in my prior post).

As far as the unlikelyness of the scenario you mentioned above. Of course. But we're talking about the spellcaster spending extraordinary time, effort and resources to locate the Outsider who is that statistical outlier who would fanatically jump at the opportunity to destroy hated ancestral foes ... and who are possibly in a current situation in their Outer Planes existence where they don't have access to accomplish those desires.

This specific angle has been written about in a number of fantasy novels over the years. Especially in Forgotten Realms novels during both the TSR and WotC years. So it's not without precedence.

Well, I've got nothing to argue with there :)

Actually, I just got a funny idea: if your enemy is known to have summoned eferets to gain wishes, and you can do your research, YOU can summon them and get wishes in exchange for killing him. Nothing prevents you bargining the same deed to several creatures, they would likely be quite willing, AND they may give you some hints of his capabilities based on the wishes they granted him.

[Rubik]

Well, I've got nothing to argue with there :)
Actually, I just got a funny idea: if your enemy is known to have summoned eferets to gain wishes, and you can do your research, YOU can summon them and get wishes in exchange for killing him. Nothing prevents you bargining the same deed to several creatures, they would likely be quite willing, AND they may give you some hints of his capabilities based on the wishes they granted him.eFerrets? fluffy

[Psyren]

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned efreet intimidating commoners and thieves into making wishes on their behalf, and (if they felt especially charitable) rewarding them with trinkets. This further begs the question as to why they would be sitting around with their wishes unused just waiting to be trapped by upstart magi. Further, they (like all genies) can plane shift at will to the material; doing so prevents them from being caught by planar binding at all since they are no longer on another plane.

So an efreet with wishes can simply pop over to the material a few days in advance, loiter around until it finds a patsy to use them up, and once they are all gone, head home, being sure to repeat this process every year.

[Rubik]

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned efreet intimidating commoners and thieves into making wishes on their behalf, and (if they felt especially charitable) rewarding them with trinkets. This further begs the question as to why they would be sitting around with their wishes unused just waiting to be trapped by upstart magi. Further, they (like all genies) can plane shift at will to the material; doing so prevents them from being caught by planar binding at all since they are no longer on another plane.

So an efreet with wishes can simply pop over to the material a few days in advance, loiter around until it finds a patsy to use them up, and once they are all gone, head home, being sure to repeat this process every year.Efreet gain 3 Wishes to bestow 1/day. How long does Planar Binding last, exactly?

[Psyren]

My bad, thought it was 1/year, guess I was thinking Zodar.

[TuggyNE]

So, by RAW, you cast the Magic Circle, then the next round you cast Dimensional Anchor, and then the next round you cast whatever summon spell. But by then you're outside the 1 round window that the Circle allows for summoning, especially given that preparing the diagram takes 10 minutes.

You prepare the diagram before casting any of the spells. That's not a problem.

Dimensional anchor is trickier, but I guess you should invest in Quickening it in some way, or just have an ally with a readied action.


Also by RAW, the circle has a 3 foot diameter. This means that many outsiders/elementals are too large to fit inside.

Oddly, that's not the area, merely part of the (arcane) material component*; it is not entirely clear whether that's adjustable or even relevant for inward-focused circles, while the 10'-radius area certainly should be. Anything that can't even squeeze into a 20' circle is a different matter, of course.

* Which means that text is entirely irrelevant for anyone using Eschew Materials, or any divine caster. :smallconfused:

[Telok]

In my campaigns most wish granting beings have dimensionally locked thier homes to prevent this sort of thing. Indeed, not only is 98% of the City of Brass not accessable via teleport, plane shift, and summon/calling, but there's a pretty big cross dimensional trade in magic Rings of Dimensional Lock.

There's no reason for an efreet to come to the prime material plane, there are plenty of non-genie inhabitants on the of fire for them to intimidate and enslave. Azer, mephit, rast, salamander, elementals.

[Psyren]

If they come to the material they can't be Bound anyway.

[TiaC]

The talk about binding Lantern Archons earlier made me want to bind one and install streetlights in a massive city. It doesn't sleep or get tired and can cast millions of Continual Flames with up to 60' of movement between each one. This should be enough to light a large city. It would likely reduce crime, so the Archon would be willing to do so.

[NichG]

Moderately related: in my current campaign, one of the PCs has a power that lets them summon things more or less at will and without prep. He does not have the power to bind them, however, and there is a roll associated with what he's trying to summon (something always shows up, but if he fails the roll its something similar but wrong).

He's keeping a running total of all the various favors he owes and has discharged, which include being reverse-summoned at some point to serve a spirit of water, obtaining revenge on another summoner on behalf of an efreet, feeding a relic that belonged to a king to a Fu dog, and a particularly complex order to provide tea during a particular astrological conjunction.

All in all, it's been a lot more interesting this way than 'apply foolproof way of compelling service, profit' or 'summoned creature refuses to cooperate no matter what'. He still uses summons extensively since they've never outright screwed him on the deals/service (well, once kinda, when he accidentally summoned a Bonnacon), but there's always some kind of price and it always involves some sort of effort to pay off.

[Miss Disaster]

I would recommend bypassing the Dimensional Anchor component and instead have the PB spellcaster be buffed-up with the ongoing spell Investiture of the Orthon (FC2) - which has a duration of 1 minute / CL.

The dimensional locking aura gives no save and no SR to the bound creature(s). It's a totally superior spell option to DA (because IotO also has a bunch of secondary and tertiary benefits), but it's 1 level higher (5th level).

[Graypairofsocks]

So, by RAW, you cast the Magic Circle, then the next round you cast Dimensional Anchor, and then the next round you cast whatever summon spell. But by then you're outside the 1 round window that the Circle allows for summoning, especially given that preparing the diagram takes 10 minutes.


Magic Circle against Evil allows you to add a special diagram to the trap version of the spell which allows you to use Dimensional Anchor on the Magic Circle before you cast the summoning spell:


You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20.

A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above.