Elemental Sorc

[kingzanus]

Hi, so I'm rolling an elemental bow sorc and have noticed that the elemental version of a sorcerer has no encounters/dailies. It doesn't seem to me that the at wills i have scale up or get buffed enough thru feats etc to be worth not having the encounters/dailies. Any thoughts?

Also, with this spec, having no dailies to speak of would 'Sorcerous Reserves' be in constant effect (arcane power feat)?

I really like this character idea. Its a halfelf sorcerer with moonbow dedicate talent. I shoot fire and ice with my bow. On that note i'm having difficulty choosing an at will from different class for dilettante. I was thinking either a bard at will, which makes the most sense or possibly the vampire at will for the +2 to attack roll. Thanks for reading ya'll!

[Cloud]

During Heroic Tier the elementalist is freaking amazing and wrecks everything. During Paragon and Epic Tier, the lack of Daily Powers starts to hurt it compared to other classes, but you still get the title of best ranged basic attack ever, which is certainly something in the right groups. That being said I wouldn't say it's a worse striker in terms of damage than the sorcerer, but that's really not saying much.

Sorcerous Reserves does nothing for the elementalist, you don't have dailies to expend.

On the half-elf, without spending any feats, Echoing Dirge from the Warlock is amazing. If you're willing to pick up Adept Dilettante, take a look at what the Wizard can do.

[kingzanus]

Sorcerous Reserves does nothing for the elementalist, you don't have dailies to expend.

.

I was sorta hoping i'd found an 'exploit' if you will. It almost seems fair considering the lack of dailies. Im amazed there aren't more utilities for elementalists that enhance damage. I have yet to play this character, but i am looking forward to it.

[Cloud]

There are a couple of tricks to get a Sorcerer Daily for the feat...but they're really not worth doing. ...I probably wouldn't take the feat on a normal sorcerer though either. XD

Remember that you can take Sorcerer utility powers for your utility powers, you are still a Sorcerer after all for prerequisites. That being said I find utility powers offer...utility, and aren't always about adding more damage. Though if you get training in Insight your 16th level Utility power can be Insightful Riposte. Sorcerer wise you can look at Good Timing, Shield of Flames, Arcane Empowerment, Weave Luck, Damage Gambit, Avatars of Chaos, Chaos Link, and Fool's Luck if you need help with damage.

[kingzanus]

Well i was thinking more since I didn't have a daily power to use that the feat would theoretically be active at all times. But I can understand why and how that shouldn't work. I've been looking into themes/paragons that offer me encounter/dailies stuff like that.

[Cloud]

Just a reminder that Sorcerous Reserves works only with Sorcerer Dailies, though if you mean looking for extra powers to pick up in general, fair enough.

Theme wise I'm not entire sure what you want to do, but you mentioned fire, so, maybe Infernal Prince. Primordial Adept is fairly solid too. Paragon Path wise...yeah, just, look for something that isn't Elemental Savant. XD

[kingzanus]

Just a reminder that Sorcerous Reserves works only with Sorcerer Dailies, though if you mean looking for extra powers to pick up in general, fair enough.

Theme wise I'm not entire sure what you want to do, but you mentioned fire, so, maybe Infernal Prince. Primordial Adept is fairly solid too. Paragon Path wise...yeah, just, look for something that isn't Elemental Savant. XD

herm. i was looking at elemental savant. my story/concept is dad was a human frost mage and my mom was an elven archer who used her very small magic power to ignite her arrows. I haven't found any paragon paths besides Elemental Savant or Reforged Soul that would be helpful to this character.

[Cloud]

Some of these need multiclassing to get into, and I'm not sure whether you're picking Fire or Cold for the elementalist, but here are a few.

A fire elementalist could look at Master of Flame (you'll want Reserve Maneuver here and just ignore the intelligence issue) or Hellbringer (needs Warlock multiclass). If you went with water for the cold side of things, Long Night Scion is an option, but also needs you to multiclass into Warlock.

More generically, look at Academy Master, Speaker of Xaos, or Demonskin Adept? Mostly just naming paragon paths I think would help in terms of power, not ones that would necessarily fit the background, haven't played an implement striker before so sorry if I can't provide too many suggestions. ^^"

[Dimers]

There are many paragon paths that don't require any particular class, but it's hard to search for them in the Compendium (and of course even harder to search without it). While they can be thematic, most of them are not very combat-effective, and the tone of your post makes it seem like that's a concern for you.

If you're satisfied with how the character plays through the heroic tier, you might consider Academy Master or Elemental Anchorite -- those are "more of the same". Academy Master's 11th-level encounter power stacks fully with Elemental Escalation, in fact. Also, Blizzard Mage is a solid choice for any Cha-based build, and you don't even need to multiclass to get it.

If you want Dilettante instead of Knack For Success, you could go for one of the skald at-will minor action powers -- you provide small benefits to your team every time you hit with a basic attack, which could easily be four or more times per combat. Example: "Until the end of the encounter or until you use another bard at-will attack power, your skald’s aura gains the following effect: Each time you hit an enemy with a basic attack, one of your allies in the aura gains temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier." Of course, to get a "skald's aura" you have to multiclass to Bard (Skald), but that's hardly a horrible thing.

[Cloud]

On the Skald I actually really like the idea, but slightly more so for a Sorcerer instead of an Elementalist as it requires you to use a melee basic attack. Blizzard Mage personally is fairly average (however certainly worth using instead of many paragon paths), minus a very delicious daily power (so if you're starting at level 20 / know you'll go that far, it's on the table), and Elemental Anchorite seems better on a Sorcerer again instead of an Elementalist because you're not a Dragon Sorcerer that can have ludicrous defences in melee, though even then I think I would use Speaker of Xaos for elemental fun. Academy Master is of course still awesome for you.

[Dimers]

*sigh* I hope my reliance on the online compendium hasn't gotten me in trouble again, but ... according to that venerable document, any basic attack qualifies for the skald aura "attack" powers.

[Tegu8788]

No, it's just a basic attack. I had one using a shortbow that had a lot of fun, hybrid with Executioner for damage.

[Kurald Galain]

*sigh* I hope my reliance on the online compendium hasn't gotten me in trouble again, but ... according to that venerable document, any basic attack qualifies for the skald aura "attack" powers.

Yes, that is correct.

Wait, but it doesn't work for another reason. A half-elf dilettante can not grab just any at-will, but only an 1st-level attack power. Those bard at-wills are utility powers. Sorry. Scratch that, they function as utility powers but for some silly reason are listed as attacks anyway.

[Cloud]

...I have no idea why I thought it was melee only, note to self, look things up before posting. :smallredface:

I'll just be over here in the idiot corner. But yeah, if it's any basic attack...you do a lot of those. =P

[Dimers]

Wait, but it doesn't work for another reason. A half-elf dilettante can not grab just any at-will, but only a 1st-level attack power. Those bard at-wills are utility powers. Sorry. Scratch that, they function as utility powers but for some silly reason are listed as attacks anyway.

I know, silly, right? But I like it.

[Tegu8788]

They are listed as Bard Attack 1. Does not qualify them for half-elf stealing?

[Dimers]

They are listed as Bard Attack 1. Does not qualify them for half-elf stealing?

It does indeed. Though, again, to make good use of such a power you also have to multiclass to skald -- otherwise you have no skald aura. So it's very corner-case. But sure, it works.

[LaniusShrike]

Note about Dilettante for the Elementalist... they only get their Striker feature (+damage) on SORCERER at-wills, so grabbing something from, say, a Warlock isn't as appealing as it might sound.

Right now our campaign has a level 21 Fire Elementalist who specializes in Ongoing damage and he is PAINFULLY lethal. Like, the DM winces whenever the enemies save from ongoing damage because it means that they'll suddenly explode in dozens of other damage. Very, very damaging and their ability to target enemies is unparalleled. They're a very solid Essentials class.

[Cloud]

...Hope this isn't my turn to get bitten in the ass by only using the compendium, but I could have sworn it applied to all arcane powers.

"Elemental Power: You gain a bonus to the damage rolls of arcane powers equal to your Constitution..."

Hope that's cutting off enough to not get in trouble or anything.

[LaniusShrike]

Bwuh, I apologize... I was so certain that it was Sorcerer at-wills only that I didn't bother looking it up but you're definitely right. Interesting... I wonder if there's anything fun to be done with that...

I'm off to make a con-based Eldritch Striker Elementalist...

Edit: AH! I found out why I had it in my head that it was Sorcerer at-wills only... Their Encounter power, Elemental Escalation, only keys off of Sorcerer at-wills, so keep THAT in mind, that if you dilettante you won't be able to Escalate with it.

A shame, my con-based Elementalist was looking pretty slick... Great AC (since Elementalist keys AC off of con), HP, and great static damage.

[kingzanus]

Here's what I've got going. lately our campaigns have been starting at paragon so these stats/powers/feats etc are for level 11
Half Elf Elemental Sorc(Water spec)
STR9 CON20 DEX12 INT13 WIS11 CHA22
Feats: Moonbow Dedicate, Versatile Expertise, White Lotus Dueling Expertise, Arcane Admixture(Elemental Bolt has FIRE keyword), Jack of all Trades, Quick Draw
at lvl 11 i grab Icy Heart and next feat is Fiery Blood. So Elemental Bolt does +6 DMG
Powers: Elemental Bolt, Ice Prison, Ignition,
utilities: Narrow Escape, Sorcerous Pulse, Water to Ice and Wall of Water. I plan on using those last 2 utilities together.
My Dilettante power is Echoing Dirge from the warlock.
My goal is to Arcane Admixture my At Wills so they will all do +6 DMG. I feel i've done a thorough job going through books and mags for optimal utilities but id love any advice/tweaks etc. I picture my character grabbing an arrow shaft from the quiver, ice forms as the arrow tip and catches on magical fire and then PEWPEW

[kingzanus]

"SORCEROUS RESERVES
Prerequisite: 11th level, sorcerer
Benefit: When you have expended all your sorcerer
daily attack powers, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls
with sorcerer at-will attack powers until you regain the
use of one of your sorcerer daily attack powers."
The way i read it is if i have no daily attack powers to use i get a +1 to at wills until i can use a daily attack power.
As an elementalist i have no daily attack powers so I would have the +1 to at wills permanently. This is from the Arcane Power book I am unsure if its been updated or not. I read the description to my Gm and he would let me play it as such. Has there been errata on this feat?

[Cloud]

Feat bonuses don't stack with each other, here is part the benefit line of versatile expertise, with emphasis added;
"Choose a weapon group and an implement type. You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls both when using a weapon from the chosen group and when using an implement of the chosen type. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level."

And for white lotus dueling expertise;
"You gain a +1 feat bonus to the attack rolls of arcane powers and basic attacks that you make with any weapon or implement with which you have proficiency. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level. You also gain proficiency with orbs, rods, staffs, or wands."

You have a similar problem in trying to take both icy heart and fiery blood;
"You gain a +3 feat bonus to cold damage rolls. This bonus increases..."
"You gain a +3 feat bonus to fire damage rolls. This bonus increases..."
Probably worth mentioning that the bonus from Moonbow Dedicate is also a feat bonus, but of course you need it if you really want to use a bow as an implement.

As for sorcerous reserves, that is the correct text, but it's in the reading.
"When you have expended all your sorcerer daily attack powers, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with sorcerer at-will attack powers until you regain the use of one of your sorcerer daily attack powers."
To expend them, you need to have them. So you need at least one sorcerer daily attack power for the feat to work. Having 0 left out of a pool of uses is not the same thing as just having none in the first place. One could also make the argument that even if you didn't agree with the wording at the beginning,talking about how you need to regain one of your sorcerer daily attack powers should make it clear you need at least one.


On the powers, I would imagine not many people would let Water to Ice work on Water Wall, or any water that isn't natural/permanent in nature, but even if it did work strictly speaking changing it to ice doesn't actually change what the power does. If your DM is willing to work with you with those two powers, that's fine, but just natively together the synergy isn't so great.

[kingzanus]

well i guess that frees me up a few feats. however I do see Icy Heart and Fiery blood still working because they are adding Feat bonuses to specific types of damage. Seeing as you've freed me up 2 feats and potentially 2 utilities any advice/suggestions etc you want to throw in there i'd appreciate it. This is a character im building for fun and for that reason ya the bow is a must.
I was messing with the idea of a ranger that has alchemy/alchemy theme and if necessary the PP as well. Alchemy is so under used in this game. Our current GM likes the idea of attaching vials to arrows, it allows for so much more combat variety. Thanks for putting up with me guys and once again love any and all your imputs!

[Cloud]

Both of the secondary effects will obviously still apply, however the power being cold or fire is just a condition needed to add the feat bonus, both are feat bonuses and won't stack if they happen to apply at the same time.

For heroic feats, well, needing to take Moonbow Dedicate leaves 5 more. You need an expertise feat and improved defenses (try and sweet talk your DM into making these free), and you probably really need unarmored agility by now. For the last 2 (or hopefully 3 or 4 depending on the DMs take on feat taxes), take your pick of Superior Will, White Lotus Riposte, Improved Initiative, Arcane Spellfury, Rising Spellfury, and Focusing Spellfury. Plenty more options if none of those tickle your fancy, but I didn't want to list 20+ feats for so few slots. ...Maybe also ask if he'll give you Moonbow Dedicate for free, given that it's a flavourful choice that weakens you? Failing that, maybe ask if he can work out something so you can still use Dual Implement Spellcaster.

Giving that Arcane Admixture is a paragon tier feat, I'm assuming you're picking that at level 11, and then retraining a heroic tier feat into icy heart of fiery blood.

Utility wise, lots of choices, so I'll try to just pick out a few, note at level 2 I still recommend Wall of Water as is, it's a great power. Back in post 4 I also dumped a list of ones to help with just damage.
Level 2
Shield of Flames
Wall of Water
Deep Shroud

Level 6
Lightning Shift
Raise Stone
Arcane Empowerment
Energetic Flight

Level 10
Fog Form
Maiden's Waking
Elemental Shield
Weave Luck

[kingzanus]

Cloud, Heapfuls of thanks! I've absorbed everything from your posts.
I'm not sure how i missed that Arcane Admixture is a paragon as well =/
That does free me up for a lot of heroic tier feats.
I do think my GM will allow a free Moonbow Dedicate feat, especially if I pray to Sehahine regularly. I think i can get him to allow both Icy Heart and Fiery blood to be active at the same time especially considering all three feats required to get the +6 damage are paragon feats.
I will definitely look into a defense feat or two including UA agility, but as an elementalist and a high starting CON my AC is 27 at this level.
With no encounters/dailies i feel picking the right utilities is crucial, it just doesn't feel like there are tons for sorcerer. I shall have to look into skill powers too perhaps...

Thanks everyone, always something new to dwell on after leaving these forums!

[Cloud]

...If your AC is 27 at level 11, I wouldn't worry about an AC feat, but I am wondering how it's so high, by my count;
10 Base.
5 Half Level.
5 Con Mod.
3 Enhancement bonus.

If you've changed your stats around or have another bonus somewhere, feel free to ignore this. XD

[kingzanus]

Do the At wills for rangers in the Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms book like Aimed Shot, Clever Shot, Rapid Shot etc work with my sorcerer at wills that count as RBAs? For example, use Rapid Shot to make a RBA at each creature in or adj. to the attacks range. Since Elemental Bolt counts as an RBA I assume I could use it in conjunction with Rapid shot?

[Cloud]

Not unless you give your power the Weapon keyword somehow. Using a weapon as an Implement is insufficient to do that.
"...make a ranged basic attack with a weapon..."

I don't think there is a way to add the weapon keyword to implement powers otherwise everyone would be doing it for the proficiency bonus to attack rolls.

[Waddacku]

It does work as long as you're using a weapon for the implement, actually. It only requires the attack be made with a weapon, not be a weapon attack. This is an important distinction.

So yeah, with a bow implement (or dagger or staff for most sorcs...) the Sorcerer RBAs work perfectly fine with the Hunter at-wills.

[Cloud]

I'd still make the argument that you're using a piece of equipment (which happens to be a weapon incidentally) as an implement. It's not being used as a weapon so you're not attacking with a weapon. *Shrugs.*

[Tegu8788]

The trick is, how are you getting the two Essentials classes At-Wills? As far as I know, there is no way to combine those classes, and I'm the guy that would know.

[Kurald Galain]

The trick is, how are you getting the two Essentials classes At-Wills? As far as I know, there is no way to combine those classes, and I'm the guy that would know.

Boon of Corellon?

[captpike]

The trick is, how are you getting the two Essentials classes At-Wills? As far as I know, there is no way to combine those classes, and I'm the guy that would know.

easiest way would be to be a half elf (or half elf revent) elemental sorc who takes a ranger for their dilettante then takes archery mastery.

paragon MCing would probably also work (in either direction) although not worth it.

[tcrudisi]

It does work as long as you're using a weapon for the implement, actually. It only requires the attack be made with a weapon, not be a weapon attack. This is an important distinction.

So yeah, with a bow implement (or dagger or staff for most sorcs...) the Sorcerer RBAs work perfectly fine with the Hunter at-wills.

This is the correct interpretation.

[captpike]

it probably is against RAI, so I would ask your DM if its a home game but by RAW its very much in the clear

[tcrudisi]

it probably is against RAI, so I would ask your DM if its a home game but by RAW its very much in the clear

I strongly disagree with this assertion. They were aware of this interpretation for a very long time. They had multiple times to fix it (including the Rules Compendium) and never did. If I remember correctly, their own FAQ addresses the issue and rules in favor of what we said.

Now - it may not have initially been what they meant, but they certainly rolled with it.

[Kurald Galain]

They were aware of this interpretation for a very long time.
I'm not so sure about this part :smallbiggrin:

But yes. Using implement attacks to trigger feats like Polearm Momentum is a long-established part of character building in 4E.

[captpike]

I did say probably